WW Dukes Versus Hunters (GAME OVER!!--See Post #1387)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by fontisian

Cool.

I am become death, destroyer of worlds.


My goal this game is to be responsible for the death of someone. Luckily, that probably be very easy.

Easiest win condition ever.

I looked over the rules again and...I don't know what would be optimal. Don't duke/shoot the seer/BG would be a good start though.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Vaimes

I guess we'll just have to lynch timmae, and then I can Cop check fontisian toNight.

Cop Check? You're going to tazer her and then shoot her in the back...

[Raven]

Checking in. Reading rules now.

[cheekimonk]

Checking in...Duke season. Hunter season. Duke season! Hunter season! Hunter season! Duke season, fire!!

vote Raven

[Grover]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Cop Check? You're going to tazer her and then shoot her in the back...

And then plant the tazer on her. We need to make this look like self-defense

[Raven]

vote The Jackal

[Narcizo]

Ok. I think its important we focus on getting the wolves. That seems obvious but I can easily see things devolving into a tit for tat cycle. The person due to be lynched dukes to a hunter, so the next day a hunter kills a duke, so at lynch someone dukes to that hunter ( because its safe as they know they're a hunter) etc etc. If that happens then the wolves will be doing the happy little dance as vote analysis will go out the window AND the wolves will probably not be sticking their necks out in that way.

If someone does feel the need to duke then they should probably try to duke to someone with votes - that way even if they hit a duke its all good as it will bring more clarity to the voting records with two deaths.

I'm thinking the addition of a cultist suggests 3 wolves to start. By the by.

[Narcizo]

vote Zinto

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Ok. I think its important we focus on getting the wolves. That seems obvious but I can easily see things devolving into a tit for tat cycle. The person due to be lynched dukes to a hunter, so the next day a hunter kills a duke, so at lynch someone dukes to that hunter ( because its safe as they know they're a hunter) etc etc. If that happens then the wolves will be doing the happy little dance as vote analysis will go out the window AND the wolves will probably not be sticking their necks out in that way.

If someone does feel the need to duke then they should probably try to duke to someone with votes - that way even if they hit a duke its all good as it will bring more clarity to the voting records with two deaths.

I'm thinking the addition of a cultist suggests 3 wolves to start. By the by.

I would support a hunter kill on anyone that successfully dukes to a village hunter. Unless the dukee turns up a wolf I think we have to find out the alignment of the duker.

[fontisian]

Let's try to have some organization with our shots and dukings. Don't shoot or duke someone without giving them time to claim and other people time to defend or attack them. I'd prefer if early lynches aren't duked though if you feel you must, try to aim for people who have had a lot of discussion and votes about them. Remember, this is a group game. We can't all be Batman.

I'd prefer to kill Dukes over Hunters toDay and go for a Hunter toMorrow, minor win condition be damned, because Hunters can be lynched if they fail to shoot scum.

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by fontisian

Let's try to have some organization with our shots and dukings. Don't shoot or duke someone without giving them time to claim and other people time to defend or attack them. I'd prefer if early lynches aren't duked though if you feel you must, try to aim for people who have had a lot of discussion and votes about them. Remember, this is a group game. We can't all be Batman.

I'd prefer to kill Dukes over Hunters toDay and go for a Hunter toMorrow, minor win condition be damned, because Hunters can be lynched if they fail to shoot scum.

Concur. If a village duke is in the lynch lead at the end of any day... unless you have a good read on someone to duke to.. it may be better to fall on the sword for the town and just eat the lynch.

[britrock88]

Some powerful items at play.

[britrock88]

vote Shoveler

Hi!

[Grover]

Originally Posted by fontisian

We can't all be Batman.

But I don't wanna be Aquaman!

[JAG]

Raven, no thoughts after reading the rules?

Unvote
Vote Raven

[fontisian]

Originally Posted by Shoveler

I would support a hunter kill on anyone that successfully dukes to a village hunter. Unless the dukee turns up a wolf I think we have to find out the alignment of the duker.

Can I ask why the role of the person duked to (beyond their alignment, obviously) matters? Why is duking to a village hunter more suspicious than duking to a village duke?

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by fontisian

Can I ask why the role of the person duked to (beyond their alignment, obviously) matters? Why is duking to a village hunter more suspicious than duking to a village duke?

If I read the rules correctly, a duke duking to another duke will kill the original duke and the dukee gets lynched. So that resolves itself.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by JAG

Raven, no thoughts after reading the rules?

Unvote
Vote Raven

Yes, there are lots of rules, so haven't fully processed yet.
Plus it's Monday and Mondays are always super busy at work, so don't have a ton of time to participate yet today.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Shoveler

Concur. If a village duke is in the lynch lead at the end of any day... unless you have a good read on someone to duke to.. it may be better to fall on the sword for the town and just eat the lynch.

Why?
If village duke is the lynch, and knows they are village, wouldn't it be better to take a chance on potential wolf rather than allow yourself to be lynched (and def kill a villager)? Maybe I'm not quite understanding...

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Raven

Why?
If village duke is the lynch, and knows they are village, wouldn't it be better to take a chance on potential wolf rather than allow yourself to be lynched (and def kill a villager)? Maybe I'm not quite understanding...

It's the secondary game of dukes v. hunters that makes this matter. A duke can try to save himself, sure, but if he dukes to another duke, both dukes die.

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by Raven

Why?
If village duke is the lynch, and knows they are village, wouldn't it be better to take a chance on potential wolf rather than allow yourself to be lynched (and def kill a villager)? Maybe I'm not quite understanding...

Well the way I see this unfolding is that if the lynch leader at the end of the day is a duke player, and they do not have a strong suspicion of a potential wolf, and they use the duke ability. They have a chance of hitting another duke villager, in which case they both die and the wolves get a two kill lynch result. I guess I'm just suggesting that any dukes in the lynch lead take a moment to really consider their options, and if they don't have a good idea of who to duke to, they should just eat the lynch rather than causing more chaos for the town.

Definitely feel like we should talk about this more before the end of day one. Not saying my ideas are the way we should go, as they are just ideas at this point. But it does seem like the rule set allows for alot of chaos.

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by britrock88

It's the secondary game of dukes v. hunters that makes this matter. A duke can try to save himself, sure, but if he dukes to another duke, both dukes die.

Yes that matters as well, but the primary game versus the wolves is also important not to sacrifice additional villagers each day.

[Shoveler]

We are focusing a lot on dukes as it will have the earliest potential impact, but the same goes for the hunters.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by britrock88

It's the secondary game of dukes v. hunters that makes this matter. A duke can try to save himself, sure, but if he dukes to another duke, both dukes die.

But there are also duke wolves, correct? So if they eliminated each other, then that would be a village gain.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Raven

But there are also duke wolves, correct? So if they eliminated each other, then that would be a village gain.

I don't know that it's specified whether all wolves are dukes or hunters, or if they're interspersed. Interspersal seems likeliest...

If your "they" means dukes, then eliminating each other could nab a wolf and be a village gain. But it seems like you might not have been saying that, exactly.

[Chief Rum]

Vote Tally (as of Post #124)

cheekimonk (1)-- timmae (80)
timmae (2)-- EagleFan (82), Vaimes (85)
Shoveler (2)-- MartinD (83), britrock83 (113)
The Jackal (1)-- Raven (106)
Vaimes (1)-- Shoveler (95)
Narcizo (1)-- Grover (99)
Raven (2)-- cheekimonk (104), JAG (115)
Zinto (1)-- Narcizo (108)


Yet To Vote: The Jackal, fontisian, Autumn, Zinto, MrBug708

[cheekimonk]

Head spinning already.

[Shoveler]

Ok, I feel like I'm rambling on about this but here goes.

If a wolf is up for lynch and they have the duke ability, they will 100% use the ability to try and save themselves. At this stage of the game, the odds are about 50/50 that they pick another duke and each die.

If a (unroled) villager duke is up for lynch, and they try to save themselves, they also have the same odds, however, the odds of pulling a wolf are really bad at this point. So unless they have a strong suspicion of who the wolves might be, it would be better for the village if that vanilla duke just let themselves get lynched.

So what I am trying to convey, is that while in the past, the vanilla villagers have tried to save themselves at all costs from a lynch, in this particular game, it may be better for the entire village if that person does not use their ability, at least this early in the game.

If the dukes start eliminating themselves, the wolf duke(s) will have more escape routes from lynching later on in the game.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by britrock88

I don't know that it's specified whether all wolves are dukes or hunters, or if they're interspersed. Interspersal seems likeliest...

If your "they" means dukes, then eliminating each other could nab a wolf and be a village gain. But it seems like you might not have been saying that, exactly.

My interpretation of the rules is there are wolf dukes and village dukes. Likewise with hunters. See quote below.

So two Dukes eliminating each other could be good for the village, as there is a chance a wolf is eliminated in that scenario.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

DUKES AND HUNTERS

The villagers and wolves are also split into two separate groups: the Dukes and the Hunters.

There is no tie between players being wolfs or villagers and being dukes and hunters. Every player's allegiance as a Duke or a Hunter will be assigned randomly, regardless of their allegiance as a wolf or villager.

[fontisian]

Even if a village duke kills themself and another village duke, if they're both people under a lot of suspicious, that saves us time and let's us do vote analysis the next Day. I don't see the issue.

[Shoveler]

Worst case scenario:

Day 1 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 6, hunters remaining 8)
Night 1 kill: Players remaining 13 (3? wolves, 11 villagers)

Day 2 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 5-6, Hunters remaining 5-6)
Day 2 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 3-4, hunters remaining 5-6)
Night 2 kill: Players Remaining 8 (Dukes 2-4, hunters 4-6)

Day 3 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 2-4, hunters remaining 2-4) Players remaining 6... Wolves hit parity.

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by fontisian

Even if a village duke kills themself and another village duke, if they're both people under a lot of suspicious, that saves us time and let's us do vote analysis the next Day. I don't see the issue.

In that case I agree, that would be best. All I'm getting at is that a duke pulling a name out of a hat isn't in the best interest of the village. Not sure that a day 1 duke is either to be honest.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by fontisian

We can't all be Batman.

I am the Batman.

[The Jackal]

VOTE GROVER

[The Jackal]

DRAAAAAAINAGE.

[The Jackal]

If I was a wolf I'd be shitting myself every deadline with the potential chance of a duke play EVERY day.

[The Jackal]

Going to do some potentially interesting things to the voting - if a wolf duke is in the running early on, other wolves don't necessarily need to avoid them because they can duke at the end - so if they die first, vote analysis might be harder.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Shoveler

Worst case scenario:

Day 1 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 6, hunters remaining 8)
Night 1 kill: Players remaining 13 (3? wolves, 11 villagers)

Day 2 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 5-6, Hunters remaining 5-6)
Day 2 lynch: Duke dukes to duke, both village (Dukes remaining 3-4, hunters remaining 5-6)
Night 2 kill: Players Remaining 8 (Dukes 2-4, hunters 4-6)

Day 3 hunter kill: Hunter kills hunter, both die, both village (Dukes remaining 2-4, hunters remaining 2-4) Players remaining 6... Wolves hit parity.

We can't worry too much about duke versus hunter or the wolves win while we are running around looking for revenge on the other team.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Going to do some potentially interesting things to the voting - if a wolf duke is in the running early on, other wolves don't necessarily need to avoid them because they can duke at the end - so if they die first, vote analysis might be harder.

Wouldn't that hold true to any wolf?

[EagleFan]

Sorry, posting on phone which I hate. Will be on laptop later.

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Wouldn't that hold true to any wolf?

Yep, a duke wolf could duke for any of them I would imagine.

[The Jackal]

Right, good point. Even more implications.

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yes, both the hunters and dukes are revealed when their actions result in public consequences.

Keep this in mind. If someone else dukes besides the person in the lynch lead we will be notified about who pulled the duke.

[Raven]

If somene casts a vote and then is shot before lynch, their vote no longer counts, I assume? Seems logical, just want to confirm.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Shoveler

Keep this in mind. If someone else dukes besides the person in the lynch lead we will be notified about who pulled the duke.

Thanks. This is helpful.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Raven

If somene casts a vote and then is shot before lynch, their vote no longer counts, I assume? Seems logical, just want to confirm.

A vote, once cast, will continue to count after the player is killed.

[The Jackal]

From the grave, so to speak

[JAG]

Good stuff folks.

Unvote
vote fontisian

Surprised no vote from her yet and not sure about her strategy above. Seems like a good way to off a seer or BG, or inadvertently killing a seer scan, or giving a duke wolf cover for their 'random' duking.

[Shoveler]

Originally Posted by JAG

Good stuff folks.

Unvote
vote fontisian

Surprised no vote from her yet and not sure about her strategy above. Seems like a good way to off a seer or BG, or inadvertently killing a seer scan, or giving a duke wolf cover for their 'random' duking.

Something about font today is off for me as well. I'm not ready to move my vote quite yet though as it's still plenty early.

[fontisian]

Originally Posted by JAG

Good stuff folks.

Unvote
vote fontisian

Surprised no vote from her yet and not sure about her strategy above. Seems like a good way to off a seer or BG, or inadvertently killing a seer scan, or giving a duke wolf cover for their 'random' duking.

How exactly would it give cover for "random duking"?