Officer delays family racing to see dying mom

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In my experience, checking for outstanding warrants is routine procedure on every traffic stop. It is here in Georgia at least, has been as far back as I can remember, at least 25 years or so.

Stopping someone is a car is pretty much the only way anyone with an arrest warrant is ever arrested, so police departments do have to be pretty aggressive with checking people out when they have the chance.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by molson

That's probably reasonable to expect more from the officer, but if you want to make sure you're with that dying relative - don't break laws and mouth off at cops. The moral validation you get from the community afterwards probably isn't worth what you lost. (though I think to some people, it actually might be). I think it makes someone feel energized and "alive" when you feel you have moral superiority to someone in authority.

How about if you want to make sure you're with a dying relative, get there as quickly as possible.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

How about if you want to make sure you're with a dying relative, get there as quickly as possible.

Let's see - with your way, he missed about 10-15 minutes, with my suggestion, he would have lost about 30 seconds, if that.

He took a risk (again, not just with time, but with community safety), made it worse by mouthing off, and lost.

The officer discipline is a seperate issue

[RainMaker]

Cop is a cocksucker on a power trip. It was an emergency situation and any reasonable cop would have let it go based on the situation. Even if he was just making sure, after the first nurse came out he should have let him go. The guy should be fired. Time to get rid of these scumbags.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Sure, the cop may have overreacted and held him longer than he needed to, but you have to put a lot of blame on Moates and the people with him for how they handled the start of it.

Cop acted out of line because he wanted to be an asshole after being put out by the family, the family acted out of love and concern for a relative about to die any second. Big difference, especially when the cop is the one who is paid to act professional and for the interest of all.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by molson

Let's see - with your way, he missed about 10-15 minutes, with my suggestion, he would have lost about 30 seconds, if that.

When has a traffic stop ever taken 30 seconds? That's bullshit. You're telling me that the same cop who didn't believe Moats's story at the hospital would believe it at a traffic stop. No, no way.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

Stopping someone is a car is pretty much the only way anyone with an arrest warrant is ever arrested, so police departments do have to be pretty aggressive with checking people out when they have the chance.

Again, he could have checked the warrant/insurance/everything while the guy was looking after his mother in law.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Pyser

is not ok to break the law (speed, run reds when its safe) when your wife is in labor? i thought that was kind of accepted in a real emergency situation.

this qualifies as one to me.

If it was that much of an emergency you should call 911 and have an ambulance take her...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by molson

Let's see - with your way, he missed about 10-15 minutes, with my suggestion, he would have lost about 30 seconds, if that.

He took a risk (again, not just with time, but with community safety), made it worse by mouthing off, and lost.

The officer discipline is a seperate issue

Of course we don't know how many other risks and lives he put in danger during the rest of his drive to the hospital. If they had killed someone on the way we would be talking about another Dante Stallworth incident...

Not to mention, how about if the cop pulled him over miles from the hospital... Then what is he supposed to do?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Again, he could have checked the warrant/insurance/everything while the guy was looking after his mother in law.

And risk having a desperate to elude capture suspect (since they would know the warrant would be discovered) loose in a hospital? Uh huh, been through lockdowns in hospitals before, that option doesn't fly. Last week we just had a knife wielding would-be carjacker (victim fought him off) try to escape by running across the street into a hospital but luckily ran right into an off-duty cop who stopped him. Next to a school, a hospital is about the last place on earth I want a suspect running loose.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And risk having a desperate to elude capture suspect (since they would know the warrant would be discovered) loose in a hospital? Uh huh, been through lockdowns in hospitals before, that option doesn't fly. Last week we just had a knife wielding would-be carjacker (victim fought him off) try to escape by running across the street into a hospital but luckily ran right into an off-duty cop who stopped him. Next to a school, a hospital is about the last place on earth I want a suspect running loose.

Nice try, but there were two people (a nurse and a police officer) who not only vouched for him, but could have escorted him up to the room.

[JPhillips]

It isn't that hard to solve. The officer accompanies Moates inside, finds his story to be accurate, leaves him and proceeds to write the ticket and check for outstanding warrants, comes back in an hour and delivers the ticket.

It's important to remember that most cops wouldn't have handled it this way. The cops in my extended family wouldn't agree with the power trip that guy was on. Ask ten cops and I bet nine would tell you this officer handled the situation poorly.

[MJ4H]

The most telling thing here is that his superiors say it was handled incorrectly. I don't think you can argue with that.

[RedKingGold]

I'm pretty much with PFT here:

Report: Powell Drew Gun On Moats’ Wife

Posted by Mike Florio on March 26, 2009, 5:36 p.m. EDT
Lost in the brouhaha that has erupted regarding the shameful (in our opinion) incident that unfolded between Dallas police officer Robert Powell and Texans running back Ryan Moats is a report that Powell drew his gun on Moats’ wife.

Apparently, the weapon was pulled at the outset of the confrontation, when Moats’ wife tried to rush inside the nearby hospital.

“Get in there,” Powell said. “Let me see your hands. Get in there. Put your hands on the car.”

It should have been obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that a car with its hazard lights flashing that ran a red light and stopped in the parking lot of a hospital contains people who for whatever reason need to get inside said hospital.

This isn’t about Powell’s subsequent perception, right or wrong, that Moats had a bad attitude. From the moment Powell got out of the car, he was wired for a confrontation. Otherwise, he would have let Moats’ wife head to the hospital without incident.

The fact that Powell opted not to shoot her when she decided to ignore him proves that Powell knew what was happening. And yet he still opted to act like a royal ass.

We realize some are concerned that criticism of police officers might undermine their ability to perform their jobs effectively. We prefer to believe that criticism of those in authority is appropriate, when deserved. Otherwise, Powell and people like him will continue to make the darkest moments of people’s lives unnecessarily darker.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

When has a traffic stop ever taken 30 seconds? That's bullshit. You're telling me that the same cop who didn't believe Moats's story at the hospital would believe it at a traffic stop. No, no way.

The red stop light would have delayed him 30 seconds (rough estimate - it could have been 5 seconds). You're assuming he had no choice but to break the law. I'm saying that he followed the law, he would have gotten to be with his mother-in-law. Any traffic stop, as you point out, would have delayed him far longer than that. Any traffic stop would have cost him the chance to be with his mother-in-law, since we're talking about seconds, apparetnly.

I think, just as a general rule, if you're in a hurry, speeding and breaking traffic laws don't save you the time that they're going to cost you, and the risk you thrust upon everyone else.

These are a pretty extraodinary circumstances - what are the odds she would have died in those 5 minutes? That's really why this story is such a big deal. I'm sure 99% of medical "emergencies" are greatly exagerated by the lawbreakers when these kind of situations come up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Nice try, but there were two people (a nurse and a police officer) who not only vouched for him, but could have escorted him up to the room.

The nurse is irrelevant to my point however, she has no way of knowing whether there's an outstanding warrant or not. And I'm not clear on whether the second cop knew or not.

But my point was more in a general sense, that you don't just let a suspect go roaming through a hospital on their say so nor the well intentioned word of people who may not know anything definitive about them either.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

The most telling thing here is that his superiors say it was handled incorrectly. I don't think you can argue with that.

Umm, not that superiors have ever been influenced by political correctness or public relations.

I'm not particular inclined to argue that he didn't make a mistake in his comment about being able to screw the suspect over (although that's damning him for being brutally honest) but I don't see a lot else here that doesn't come back to Moates behavior.

[jeff061]

When I was younger I had no problems with cops. But over the last several years the vast majority I have dealt with are empty headed insecure blowhards like the guy in this article. I'm not just talking about traffic stops. I've done quite a bit of consulting in police departments. In a social setting they are frat boys that walk around high fiving and telling stories about how pissed off they got someone at them.

Maybe it's just the Boston area cops, they were much better in New Hampshire.

People who need respect and power but are incapable of getting it on their own become cops. Takes special character to fit both of those requirements.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The nurse is irrelevant to my point however, she has no way of knowing whether there's an outstanding warrant or not. And I'm not clear on whether the second cop knew or not.

But my point was more in a general sense, that you don't just let a suspect go roaming through a hospital on their say so nor the well intentioned word of people who may not know anything definitive about them either.

Maybe the nurses were in on the conspiracy to help this hardened criminal escape the tortures of receiving a $50 ticket for disobeying a traffic light.

[larrymcg421]

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm, not that superiors have ever been influenced by political correctness or public relations.

Well except for the fact that it is basically pretty clear to most people that the superiors are right in this case.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.

The way I look at it is this was. The same people that cry foul because he detained him for this, would probably for the most part be the same people that cry foul if the the whole story was a lie and he shot up the hospital or killed someone inside it. Not all of them, just most of them.

I still stand beside the cop was a jerk and handled things wrong, but as a citizen we also have to take some responsibility and try to act as calm as possible to protect all those around us including ourselves.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.

Now, THAT starts to get past 'extended unpaid vacation' into 'lose your job' territory.

I was taught that you don't pull a gun you aren't willing to use. If that's not a situation where deadly force, or the threat of deadly force, is a justifiable one, he needs to be gone.

[MJ4H]

No doubt both sides have some responsibility in this.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Now, THAT starts to get past 'extended unpaid vacation' into 'lose your job' territory.

I was taught that you don't pull a gun you aren't willing to use. If that's not a situation where deadly force, or the threat of deadly force, is a justifiable one, he needs to be gone.

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

This lady's mom is DYING. I find it amazing that people here cannot understand how someone might be feeling in that case. The lady said, "My mom is dying. Don't you understand?" I doubt I'd be nearly as calm as she was if my mom was dying. And I doubt I'd be very calm if an officer pulled a gun on my grief stricken wife, but then starts to hassle me about insurance. To me, it is incredibly baffling the kind of behavior that some of you are expecting from them, considering what they were going through. I honestly do not understand that at all.

Nobody's saying they should be locked up or anything.

I'm sure the officer understood "SHE'S DYING!!!" as, "We have a sick relative in the hopital". Not that she was going to be dead in 90 seconds. I'm not sure exactly how much precise information the nurse was able to provide, but by that point, most of the time had passed.

The cop should say he's sorry and we should all move on.

If you go through life with the expectation that officers, and the rest of humanity, are 100% perfect and that you've been violated every time it drops below that, you're risking feeling violated. If you get pulled over when you were in a hurry, you should apologize for breaking the law, calmly tell the officer what the deal is, and request that things move along as fast as possible, you'll be golden 99.9% of the time. If you wave your arms and yell and mouth off, they will assume you're a liar, because their experiences have taught them that.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

Yeah they teach everyone that grows up in CA basic police tactics...

[JPhillips]

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that Moates shouldn't have been stopped. I'm fine with stopping him, running his license and giving him a citation. However, I don't see how you can watch the cop lecture Moates about his attitude knowing that a nurse just said the woman was going to die any second and not see him as a first rate asshole.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that Moates shouldn't have been stopped. I'm fine with stopping him, running his license and giving him a citation. However, I don't see how you can watch the cop lecture Moates about his attitude knowing that a nurse just said the woman was going to die any second and not see him as a first rate asshole.

I think everyone agrees with the last part of your last sentence.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

Seriously? That must have been a very soft neighborhood.

Just off the top of my head ...

-- Don't pull a gun if you aren't willing to use it.
-- Don't point a gun at anything you aren't planning to shoot.
-- Proper gun control means hitting what you aim at.
-- Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice just to be sure.
-- Aim for center mass, you're most likely to hit something that way
-- EVERY gun you pick up is loaded until you prove otherwise (first thing about guns I taught my son)
-- "Be sure to drag 'em inside", which has been replaced for practical reasons by "make sure you know how the local cops feel about dragging them inside".

And that's just the obvious ones I can think of at the moment.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

The way I look at it is this was. The same people that cry foul because he detained him for this, would probably for the most part be the same people that cry foul if the the whole story was a lie and he shot up the hospital or killed someone inside it. Not all of them, just most of them.

Running a red light is hardly a reason to suspect someone is going to run into a hospital to murder someone. Especially when he is with his wife and there are nurses telling the cops his mother is dying.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

Couple of gun enthusiasts in the family. When I was younger, I went shooting with my uncle, and before he'd let me use the gun, he drilled a few things into my head.

Treat every gun as if it's loaded, even if you're certain it's not.

Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to use the weapon.

Don't put yourself in a situation where you need to use a gun, but if you're in such a situation, don't draw a weapon you aren't willing to use. If the other guy is armed, it's a damn good way to get yourself killed.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Seriously? That must have been a very soft neighborhood.

Just off the top of my head ...

-- Don't pull a gun if you aren't willing to use it.
-- Don't point a gun at anything you aren't planning to shoot.
-- Proper gun control means hitting what you aim at.
-- Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice just to be sure.
-- Aim for center mass, you're most likely to hit something that way
-- EVERY gun you pick up is loaded until you prove otherwise (first thing about guns I taught my son)
-- "Be sure to drag 'em inside", which has been replaced for practical reasons by "make sure you know how the local cops feel about dragging them inside".

And that's just the obvious ones I can think of at the moment.

Not ALL of what Jon said, but numbers 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 - yeah, those (or close enough as makes no difference), I remember hearing in my uncle's lecture 20-odd years ago.

[MJ4H]

I feel like Noop all of a sudden.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Not ALL of what Jon said, but numbers 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 - yeah, those (or close enough as makes no difference), I remember hearing in my uncle's lecture 20-odd years ago.

Good to know that some things are pretty universal. If you knew #3 then I'm a little surprised you didn't have some local variation on #7. And of course #4 (shoot twice) applies largely to people not animals, since the second shot usually not a clear one could damage the hide or the meat.

And I don't even hunt

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

Nobody's saying they should be locked up or anything.

Right, but there's lots of criticism as to how they acted, and I have a hard time believing that most people in this thread would have acted differently in the same situation.

I'm sure the officer understood "SHE'S DYING!!!" as, "We have a sick relative in the hopital". Not that she was going to be dead in 90 seconds. I'm not sure exactly how much precise information the nurse was able to provide, but by that point, most of the time had passed.

The nurse said they were coding her for the third time, and the officer still didn't let him go. Then the nurse comes back with a police officer restating the urgency, and the guy STILL being an asshole - "Okay I'm just finishing up."

The cop should say he's sorry and we should all move on.

If you go through life with the expectation that officers, and the rest of humanity, are 100% perfect and that you've been violated every time it drops below that, you're risking feeling violated. If you get pulled over when you were in a hurry, you should apologize for breaking the law, calmly tell the officer what the deal is, and request that things move along as fast as possible, you'll be golden 99.9% of the time. If you wave your arms and yell and mouth off, they will assume you're a liar, because their experiences have taught them that.

Big difference between being in a big hurry and "mom dying." Sorry, but I just don't believe most people in this thread would react as calmly as you're expecting the Moats' to have acted in this situation. I don't buy that at all. I'd be more likely to believe that MBBF wants to engage in nonpartisan debate of issues than that.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Running a red light is hardly a reason to suspect someone is going to run into a hospital to murder someone. Especially when he is with his wife and there are nurses telling the cops his mother is dying.

I agree, but regardless the officers job is to assess the situation, not just take someones word no question.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I agree, but regardless the officers job is to assess the situation, not just take someones word no question.

And if his assesment was that this was a dangerous situation that required the drawing of his firearm and keeping Moats for that long, he is too stupid to be a police officer. Let him flip burgers where his intellect is more suited for.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I agree, but regardless the officers job is to assess the situation, not just take someones word no question.

That is his job, and I think many of us feel he assessed the situation very poorly. And then after poorly assessing the situation, he acted like an asshole.

I mean - "hazard lights, running a red light, pulling into a hospital by the ER". It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to read this situation properly. And that doesn't mean you don't still stop them, but it does mean perhaps you should approach the situation differently instead of threatening to shoot the lady who says her mom is dying.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

don't worry, i'm just as sheltered as you are, and i'm pretty much perfectly fine with this fact.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.

I'm sure the community would have blamed the Moats for being unarmed and shot for running into a hospital to see their Mother before she died.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And if his assesment was that this was a dangerous situation that required the drawing of his firearm and keeping Moats for that long, he is too stupid to be a police officer. Let him flip burgers where his intellect is more suited for.

This is a ridiculous statement. Cop turns on his lights for a red light stop, car goes multiple blocks further, running stop signs going to its destination. Before the cop approaches the car, multiple extremely agitated people get out of the car and start yelling.

Anyone who doesn't assess that as a dangerous situation is putting his life at great risk.

The level to which the outcome is clouding your judgment is astounding to me.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

This disturbs me, unless you were a police officer or something. I mean, I, for one, have never been taught anything about how to pull a gun on someone? Did I just grow up in a soft neighborhood or something?

I wouldn't say soft. Some neighborhoods don't need guns to handle their disputes.

[jeff061]

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.

As has been stated, several times, I doubt this woman was thinking logically. Your mom can only die once. I imagine it can be traumatic.

Idiot cop should take this into account as she runs towards the fucking hospital door. Police offers are trained and paid professionals. Anyone can point a gun at someone without any thought of the situation and environment. I'd like actual police officers to be held to a higher standard than "monkey with a gun".

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?

MJ4H not knowing some of the old standbys about guns is one thing that but people not knowing that "stay in the car" means stay ... in ... the ... car... can get your ass shot off. And that's your own fault if it happens.

To be fair, I've heard most of that stuff, I was just making a little bit of fun of being taken aside and instructed about how to pull a gun on someone by a family member.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Radii

This is a ridiculous statement. Cop turns on his lights for a red light stop, car goes multiple blocks further, running stop signs going to its destination. Before the cop approaches the car, multiple extremely agitated people get out of the car and start yelling.

Anyone who doesn't assess that as a dangerous situation is putting his life at great risk.

The level to which the outcome is clouding your judgment is astounding to me.

It would take 30 seconds to realize that this wasn't a dangerous situation and to let them go.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Am I the only person left on earth who knows that if you exit a vehicle when an officer tells you to remain inside that a gun is likely to be drawn? And that a drawn gun is exponentially more likely to cause serious damage than one that's holstered?

Yup. Seems extremely obvious to me.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That is his job, and I think many of us feel he assessed the situation very poorly. And then after poorly assessing the situation, he acted like an asshole.

I mean - "hazard lights, running a red light, pulling into a hospital by the ER". It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to read this situation properly. And that doesn't mean you don't still stop them, but it does mean perhaps you should approach the situation differently instead of threatening to shoot the lady who says her mom is dying.

And I've been saying since my first post...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

To be fair, I've heard most of that stuff, I was just making a little bit of fun of being taken aside and instructed about how to pull a gun on someone by a family member.

Family members? Hell, I've gone over those things with family members, friends, cops, even a few enemies.