Werewolf LVII: Cathedral (GAME OVER!)

[Abe Sargent]

Okay, let me talk a little more about the strategy which st. cronin suggested yesterday. I agree, and I worked on the artwork. Why?

If we have 4/5s of the players work on the same thing, and some work goes undone, what have we learned? That out for 80% of the players at least one is a demon? Thats not that much help. Divide everybody into groups of six or so, and do work, now the demons have less room to hide. If they choose to not do work, then we have a smaller working group. It forces the demons to work.

[Abe Sargent]

If we go 8 on teh walls, thats half. The other four people should diuvide evenly between artowrk an dcarpentry.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I don't think the public roles really mater, they're just a point from which we can get into character. The real power lies in the secret roles that we don't want to give out to avoid being killed off early.

As the Knight I also have a minor power I will keep to myself.

Mr. Wednesday confirmed he had a power as well to go with his role.

I am wondering if Demons don't have that and Render just tipped his hand here.

[Passacaglia]

Anxiety, I like your thinking. I'm considering working on the walls a second time, to reduce the number of people working on it. Thoughts?

[Passacaglia]

Here's another thought: Why shouldn't we just kill the Bishop?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

thanks BK....one more question...if someone decides to bluff their work order, can they change to another section via pm, or change to a vote, or do all orders have to be public, and only the bluff notification goes to you by PM?

I don't think I quite understand the question, but I'm going to try and answer it anyway. Think of submitting a work order as going to that part of the church and doing some work. You can fake the work you've done but with so many people around you can't sneak off to another place. All actions are public with only the faking being a PM.

[Alan T]

I don't know if it is because I am reading everything all at once instead of how I normally am here as posts come in, but this day one seems to have alot of people "teaming up" on like ideas so to speak in a way that feels a bit off to me.. maybe its just my perception of it all..

So I think I caught up on everything.. I don't have the time to jump back a page to a few of the comments that I felt a bit weired out by, so just chose one of the ones on page 3 with me to make it fast/easy.

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Here's another thought: Why shouldn't we just kill the Bishop?

I don't understand this point of view.. if I read the rules right (maybe I didn't fully comprehend them or something here), we don't know if the bishop is good or bad, so in the end he is the same as any of the rest of us.. someone with a public role that we don't know their private allegience.. I don't understand how that singles him out any more than anyone else. Maybe he has his own victory conditions? The rule page doesn't list any for him.. but I guess if he has his own private allegience, it probably wouldn't... I just assume some of the public roles are powerful and the bishop would be one of those such roles.. Why would we want to kill off someone who might be on our side that could carry a powerful role quickly? That doesn't really sit right with me.

I think the better approach to the bishop would be assume he does have a powerful role and try to figure out which side he is planning on using that power on through whatever means we have available to us. The same thing could be said about a few other of the publicly listed roles as well I would think. In many games, the seer has to figure out who they want to scan based on other things, but this game there is a different factor for them to work in, so I would think the Bishop would be one of the roles (just as my own role) that seem to lead itself to needing to be scanned early on. If I was the seer, I would probably scan either neon or myself early in the game. I don't see why you would want to then just kill off the bishop that early on for no reason.

As for some of the other stuff going on. I think its important to get the walls built, so I am hoping that we see enough people do work in order to get them completed so we can start working on the next sections of the cathedral. Either through people doing double work, or additional people doing the work. Its also apparent that we won't have a no lynch today, so the idea Cronin tossed out is an impossibility. Once the vote has been cast, you can't undo it. (other than moving it to someone else). So we'll have a lynch of some sort today, it now just depends on who will get the most votes.

Part of me wanted to come out and vote for Chief because of his quick vote putting us into this situation before any more conversation could come from it.. however thinking about it for a little longer (for like 2-3 minutes instead of the instant gut check), I think I'm going to play a hunch here and vote with Chief. We're going to have to lynch someone, so Anxiety probably is just as good as anyone else.

I wish I could be around for more of the conversation, but I doubt I will be back again the rest of the day. If I do manage to get back, it will be tonight (possibly right before or after the lynch). So good luck on the rest of the day!

Vote Anxiety

[Passacaglia]

Alan -- Given what you've read about the Bishop in the rules, what would you guess is the probablity that he's not interested in helping us?

the problem with having the seer scan the Bishop is that I'm not sure the results would be interesting to us.

[Passacaglia]

And geez, don't you people want to build this damn Cathedral?!?

[Lathum]

OK, here are the public roles. I have highlighted the ones I don't see having much potential value

Bishop: Neon Chaos
Bishop's Assistaint: ntndeacon
Lord Leige: Alan T
Knight: Lathum
Page: oliegirl
Friar: saldana
Novice: Chief Rum
Peon: path12
Moneylender: DaddyTorgo
Goldsmith: Mr. Wednesday
Blacksmith: Pass
Shepard: st.cronin
Mason: Schmidty
Butcher: Anxiety
Carpenter: PurdueBrad
Musician: RendeR


These are the ones I see having not much value. Combine that with what I think is a screw up by him I will

VOTE RENDER

[Passacaglia]

Couldn't his screw up just been because his role is one of the few with no value?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Here's another thought: Why shouldn't we just kill the Bishop?

Because it wouldn't be nice?

[Lathum]

Walls - 8 units of work
Roof - 4 units of work
Windows - 2 unit of work
Artwork - 12 units of work
Carpentry - 12 units of work

Each work action completes 1 unit of work

Walls- 6 ( St.Cronin 55), (NTNDeacon #58), (alanT #61), (Passacaglia #77), (Saldana #82), (NeonChaos #88)

Artwork- 2 (Oliegirl 64), (Anxiety #65)

Carpentry- 2 (PerdueBrad #73), (chiefrum #80)

So this is what we still need done

Walls - 2 units of work
Roof - 4 units of work
Windows - 2 unit of work
Artwork - 10 units of work
Carpentry - 10 units of work

[RendeR]

I got the responses I wanted from my post. I have an ability, but I was afraid to jump in and admit I did until I knew for certain there were others with one.

I agree we should get the walls done asap So:


Work On Walls

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Couldn't his screw up just been because his role is one of the few with no value?

I don't think I understood the question.

as far as I know everyone should have some sort of hidden minor ability. Render claimed not to have one. I know it's not much but it's something.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I got the responses I wanted from my post. I have an ability, but I was afraid to jump in and admit I did until I knew for certain there were others with one.

I'm calling BS

[RendeR]

I'l save my second action in case we get into a bad voting situation. I firmly believe we should be wasting our actions on voting today and that the longer we keep everyone around working the easier this game will be and the faster it will end.(for the villagers win)

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Because it wouldn't be nice?

Can you tell us any more about your role?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I don't think I understood the question.

as far as I know everyone should have some sort of hidden minor ability. Render claimed not to have one. I know it's not much but it's something.

But it seems like you've spelled out three people who you don't think have a hidden minor ability, so it's not everyone, right?

[Lathum]

Work on Walls


that should theoreticaly complete our work on the walls unless someone is faking ( which I consider likely )

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm calling BS

How does this NOT surprise me. You're being awfully aggressive for a first day Lathum, who put a bug up your butt?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

But it seems like you've spelled out three people who you don't think have a hidden minor ability, so it's not everyone, right?

I never said that I don't think they have an ability. I said I think their abilities could be less usefull.

For example who would you assume is more valuable the blacksmith or the muscian?

[Lathum]

dola- I know it's not much but I'm bored and it;s something to discuss

[st.cronin]

Alan, why did you cast a second vote on Anxiety? Can you explain that?

VOTE CHIEF RUM

That gives us three candidates. I don't like the two early votes for Anxiety - when Abe was a regular, I thought he was the best villager around. I think both those votes stink to high heaven.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

How does this NOT surprise me. You're being awfully aggressive for a first day Lathum, who put a bug up your butt?

no bug up my but.

I am usually agressive on day 1, more often then not it gives us information down the road.

Plus when I see something I think is off I am going to point it out.

I think your statements are off.

[st.cronin]

VOTE CHIEF RUM

Reposting for color purposes, although I want to state that I can barely read the orange text.

[RendeR]

Lathum, if you really need to know my ability to relieve your suspicion I'll announce it. I don't think its enough to make me a huge target for the demons as I'm betting they would rather fry some flying fish instead of a wandering minstral.

So you make the call, If it will get you off my back I'll reveal what I can do for the village.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I never said that I don't think they have an ability. I said I think their abilities could be less usefull.

For example who would you assume is more valuable the blacksmith or the muscian?

I see what you mean -- my power is pretty valuable, so it's a good thing for us that it's ended up in the hands of someone like me.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Lathum, if you really need to know my ability to relieve your suspicion I'll announce it. I don't think its enough to make me a huge target for the demons as I'm betting they would rather fry some flying fish instead of a wandering minstral.

So you make the call, If it will get you off my back I'll reveal what I can do for the village.

show me where I said I want you to reveal anything?

besides, you can say anything at this point and there is no way to verify it, so why even bother.

[RendeR]

I want to reiterate that I think based on the rules of the game lynching is a bad idea. The more people we get rid of the less people there are to get work done. The fastest and simplest way to win this game for us is to get everyone building each day.

Its simple math, the demons can't out-kill our ability to build, even with sabotage I don't think they have the numbers to kill us off faster than we can complete the job.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

VOTE CHIEF RUM

Reposting for color purposes, although I want to state that I can barely read the orange text.

TWO votes on him? This is craziness, and while I don't like the Anxiety votes, it really seems to be taking us away from the task at hand.

Do you have some extra motiviation to save Anxiety?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Can you tell us any more about your role?

Well, I am heavily invested in the Cathedral being finished. But unlike the angels and demons, my loyalties lie not to their own respective groups, but to my flock, the villagers. True victory for mankind can only be achieved by fulfilling His will. Alas, I am sworn to a vow of silence, and cannot explain much further.

[st.cronin]

Lathum, I didn't post anything in thread but I had a similar situation to Render. I had to read my pm three times before I figured out what my ability was. I would give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Well, I am heavily invested in the Cathedral being finished. But unlike the angels and demons, my loyalties lie not to their own respective groups, but to my flock, the villagers. True victory for mankind can only be achieved by fulfilling His will. Alas, I am sworn to a vow of silence, and cannot explain much further.

That's not exactly instilling me with confidence.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

TWO votes on him? This is craziness, and while I don't like the Anxiety votes, it really seems to be taking us away from the task at hand.

Do you have some extra motiviation to save Anxiety?

No, its a combination of sentimentality and respect for his skillz as a villager. Also his spelling is highly amusing. There was one game where, in a single post, he spelled the word "the" three different ways.

Seriously, I prefered no-lynch. Two of the first three votes were for Anxiety, which seems incredible to me. I'd bet one of CR or Alan T is a demon.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Lathum, I didn't post anything in thread but I had a similar situation to Render. I had to read my pm three times before I figured out what my ability was. I would give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

do you still feel the same way now that he is claiming he was attempting to find out if other people had abilities?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I want to reiterate that I think based on the rules of the game lynching is a bad idea. The more people we get rid of the less people there are to get work done. The fastest and simplest way to win this game for us is to get everyone building each day.

Its simple math, the demons can't out-kill our ability to build, even with sabotage I don't think they have the numbers to kill us off faster than we can complete the job.

To the simple-minded worker, or a supernatural being whose only purpopse is to finish a stone monument, this is so. But when you are given a higher calling... things are not as simple as it seems.

Might I quote the Bible.

Villagers win true victory if they destroy the beings foul, AND complete the cathedral. They merely win a minor one should the cathedral be completed.

Lest you be a divine seraph, sir, would you consider victory to be true by merely completing the place of worship.

The flock must be guided to His will. Of course, I cannot blame you, a mere musician, for having a narrow-minded view of things. You have naught an idea of the storm that brews beneath.

As Bishop, I am indeed leaning on voting for either Chief Rum or Anxiety. An inquisition must take place.

AND NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Lathum

show me where I said I want you to reveal anything?

besides, you can say anything at this point and there is no way to verify it, so why even bother.

See, this is the crap I dislike. You toss out some accusation and when I try to offer a rebuttle you take the "doesn't matter what you say" position and no matter how I try to handle it it just makes me look worse. OF course then I'm all but required to point out what an excellent con job it is for you to do so on the first day and you toss back "so now your accsing me, blah blah blah"

Did I miss the statement in the rules that informed us that the regaular villager roles would have secret abilities? I've read over them twice now and I'm not seeing it. Please do enlighten me. If I'm just an idiot and missed it I'll admit so.

I wanted to know if others had some sort of skill/ability, but admiting I had one if no-one else did makes me look like a Deamon/Angel and makes me a target. If I downplay the value of the public roles, then someone will pipe up with a reason they are important, exactly as they did.

So now we all know that probably everyone has some sort of special skill which makes your notion that there are any that are expendable, rather wrong. They're all important in some way.

This brings me back to why you're interested in lynching someone anyway, as I've stated before and I tihnk Cronin did as well, finishing the cathedral is the quick win play. If we lynch people we lose work ability, lets build as fast as we can and see what we can learn from the seer(s) for a day or two and then take that info and go after people.

Or am I just making you more suspicious simply by defending myself?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

do you still feel the same way now that he is claiming he was attempting to find out if other people had abilities?

Eh, I can see that as a weasely villager play too. Sometimes when the pressure is on you have to come up with weird stuff.

I'm ok with a Render lynch, but I don't see what you're seeing.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Did I miss the statement in the rules that informed us that the regaular villager roles would have secret abilities? I've read over them twice now and I'm not seeing it. Please do enlighten me. If I'm just an idiot and missed it I'll admit so.

Villagers
All players will have a public role. Not all roles have a special power or ability. Angels/devils may get to keep the power of their public role. There is the standard Duke, Bodyguard, Seer. There will also be a cultist who appears to the seer to be a villager, and counts as a villager for ration purposes, but wins with the Demons. He has other abilities.

Might this mean that certain public roles, but not all, have secret abilities!?

*SHOCK!*

May I call thee an idiot now, ser?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

To the simple-minded worker, or a supernatural being whose only purpopse is to finish a stone monument, this is so. But when you are given a higher calling... things are not as simple as it seems.

Might I quote the Bible.

Villagers win true victory if they destroy the beings foul, AND complete the cathedral. They merely win a minor one should the cathedral be completed.

Lest you be a divine seraph, sir, would you consider victory to be true by merely completing the place of worship.

The flock must be guided to His will. Of course, I cannot blame you, a mere musician, for having a narrow-minded view of things. You have naught an idea of the storm that brews beneath.

As Bishop, I am indeed leaning on voting for either Chief Rum or Anxiety. An inquisition must take place.

AND NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!

Forgive my insolence Reverend, but give me your ear for a moment and let me explain the goodly bent of my thoughts.

We go majorly hard at finishing the cathedral. I'm assuming based on the math that we "could" finish it on day 3" (If anyone has numbers otherwise please post them!)

That gives us 2 days for those powers that be to help guide us to the deamons and hopefully finding at least one, perhaps leading us to a situation where we can complete oth of your grande convictions.

The inquisition father, is a foolish toy at this time, let those who live the sinful life reveal themselves to us as they most assuradly will as al know that evil cannot abide good and will succumb to the urge to act on their evil.

Then we will have them.

[Passacaglia]

NC, based on your quote, I think RendeR's fine. He obviously just doesn't have a special role after all.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Alan, why did you cast a second vote on Anxiety? Can you explain that?

VOTE CHIEF RUM

That gives us three candidates. I don't like the two early votes for Anxiety - when Abe was a regular, I thought he was the best villager around. I think both those votes stink to high heaven.

Yeah, but it will take me a while to get back to speed.

And I wasn;t that great. Lathum, CR, hoops, BK are all better'n me and about ten people are my equal.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Might this mean that certain public roles, but not all, have secret abilities!?

*SHOCK!*

May I call thee an idiot now, ser?

Gah...indeed, I am an idiot, the Village idiot it seems.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Well, I am heavily invested in the Cathedral being finished. But unlike the angels and demons, my loyalties lie not to their own respective groups, but to my flock, the villagers. True victory for mankind can only be achieved by fulfilling His will. Alas, I am sworn to a vow of silence, and cannot explain much further.

If you're invested in the Cathedral being finished, why are you supporting a lynch?

[Lathum]

See, this is the crap I dislike. You toss out some accusation and when I try to offer a rebuttle you take the "doesn't matter what you say" position and no matter how I try to handle it it just makes me look worse. OF course then I'm all but required to point out what an excellent con job it is for you to do so on the first day and you toss back "so now your accsing me, blah blah blah"

I never said your rebuttle doesn't matter. I meant you could claim to have any secret ability and there would be no way to verify

Did I miss the statement in the rules that informed us that the regaular villager roles would have secret abilities? I've read over them twice now and I'm not seeing it. Please do enlighten me. If I'm just an idiot and missed it I'll admit so.

no one said you are an idiot.

The rules state that not all roles have a special power or ability, so why would you have a plan to find out if other people have a power or ability? It doesn't make much sense.

I wanted to know if others had some sort of skill/ability, but admiting I had one if no-one else did makes me look like a Deamon/Angel and makes me a target. If I downplay the value of the public roles, then someone will pipe up with a reason they are important, exactly as they did.

Why not just come out and say " I have a special ability, does anyone else?"

IMO trying to be coy about it seems far more suspicous.

So now we all know that probably everyone has some sort of special skill which makes your notion that there are any that are expendable, rather wrong. They're all important in some way.

from the rules

Villagers
All players will have a public role. Not all roles have a special power or ability

This brings me back to why you're interested in lynching someone anyway, as I've stated before and I tihnk Cronin did as well, finishing the cathedral is the quick win play. If we lynch people we lose work ability, lets build as fast as we can and see what we can learn from the seer(s) for a day or two and then take that info and go after people.

Or am I just making you more suspicious simply by defending myself?

I never think it is a good thing to no lynch and if you think the game is going to be as easy as rush to build the cathedral then win I think you are mistaken.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

NC, based on your quote, I think RendeR's fine. He obviously just doesn't have a special role after all.

he claims he does in post 114

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

If you're invested in the Cathedral being finished, why are you supporting a lynch?

Unlike angels, we mortals must fulfill the Lord's desire. We are his chosen, and only through true victory will we be saved.

[Abe Sargent]

Alright, we need to cut out the Day One stuff and move on to building. Unfortunately we can't unvote the ones who have voted, so it looks like someone is going down tonight for sure. I am going to save my second action for later in teh day, in case I need to vote self-defensively.

[Lathum]

dola- I just want to point out that if you guys think this game is going to be as easy as rushing to build a cathedral you are nuts