Werewolf XLVI - Sun And Shadow (Game Thread) - Game Over! Cultists win!

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Lathum

can someone be re-converted after they were cleansed?

I was wondering the same thing.
But whether that would be a good strategy for the Shadow if each attempt causes the percentage of success in the next attempt to go down is an issue as well. they have to get more of the unconverted than we have.

[ntndeacon]

And to go ahead and vote....
Vote KWhit
Vote Mercy

Perhaps the mercy vote is misplaced, but I view today as a way to keep a potentially powerful weapon against Shadow around. As it is most likely we will strip one of us of thier powers.

[Swaggs]

I am going to go ahead and cast a vote here, since we need to get moving.

Vote Chief Rum

Vote Mercy

I am voting for him, mostly because I need to vote for someone, partly because I think his classification idea could be an attempt to lead the rest of us on an errand that will distract us without really providing us with any sound information.

I am voting to give him mercy, however, because I think the odds of hitting a useful role (since everyone presumably has a role) are much, much greater than hitting a member of the Shadow today.

I am curious to hear others' thoughts on mercy vs punishment on Day 1?

[Swaggs]

Dola, was posting my last post while ntn's vote went up. Obviously, I agree with his logic regarding the mercy vote.

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So can anyone see a way that someone can ever be trusted?

Those who have been cleansed are in general very trustworthy, because the Shadow can't corrupt them again. Though there is a very small chance someone could "recover" from being cleansed. But in general, they're trustworthy.

[Joe]

I have a role listed above. I also have a mundane roll. I also think a mass reveal is bad. I also vote for barkeep.

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Peregrine, correct me if I am wrong. Shadow does not get the use of our magic roles, correct? When you convert to Shadow, you can't use your magical roles. I think I read that. Or taking it one step further, you are stripped of your magical roles when you join Shadow.

I would assume items can still be used, and mundane role abilities.

That is correct. They lose the use of their magical roles, but can use any mundane roles or items.

[BrianD]

Voting for mercy on Day 1 seems like it could be alright. The shadow probably don't know each other so we won't learn anything from the voting history. Odds are we would cleanse a clean person so all we do is eliminate future help. I'm not sure what help punishment would be unless we happen to get very lucky and hit a bad guy.

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by Joe

I have a role listed above. I also have a mundane roll. I also think a mass reveal is bad. I also vote for barkeep.

Hey Joe, make sure to bold your votes, like

vote Barkeep49

[Alan T]

Vote Swaggs

Voting for anyone with the intent of giving them mercy anyhows without hearing more from them seems redundant and counter-productive.

When we have someone on the block, they by all means should give us a reason to not punish them, and at that time we can choose to give them mercy instead of punishment. (We do have time after the deciding vote for whom is voted for and we have to determine if we should punish them or give them mercy).

I don't really have a very strong feeling about Swaggs either way, just using this vote as my way of stating my objection to people who are throwing out mercy before someone has even been decided upong, as well as picking someone who has publically said they won't be here to defend themselves.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Vote Swaggs

Voting for anyone with the intent of giving them mercy anyhows without hearing more from them seems redundant and counter-productive.

When we have someone on the block, they by all means should give us a reason to not punish them, and at that time we can choose to give them mercy instead of punishment. (We do have time after the deciding vote for whom is voted for and we have to determine if we should punish them or give them mercy).

I don't really have a very strong feeling about Swaggs either way, just using this vote as my way of stating my objection to people who are throwing out mercy before someone has even been decided upong, as well as picking someone who has publically said they won't be here to defend themselves.

Realistically, how is anyone going to legitimately defend themselves and/or prove their role on day 1, Alan? I know I did not have an opportunity to have a night action on night 0, did you?

Everyone is going to say they have a valuable role that can help us win and that you are going to make a big mistake if you vote for me. What will make you believe me, if I say that, over someone else saying it?

[hoopsguy]

Some thoughts on the topics of discussion:

1. I do not have a mundane role ability, unless I suck at reading comprehension.
2. I plan on voting for Punishment unless given a reason to do otherwise. This stinks for the person with the Day 1 short straw, just like most Day 1 votes. But it is less harsh in this game than most. We have up to six good targets out there - Sun, Shadow, a sympathizer role, and another that will be more powerful for the enemy than he is for us. I'm none of these roles, so I believe I've got a 6/17 chance of hitting someone that I don't mind losing. Better odds than many games, especially when the penalty does not involve being lost for the duration of the game. And when a cleansed Shadow can potentially yield information on his peers or at the very least game mechanics we don't see. In short, I think Mercy is a poor play.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Realistically, how is anyone going to legitimately defend themselves and/or prove their role on day 1, Alan? I know I did not have an opportunity to have a night action on night 0, did you?

Everyone is going to say they have a valuable role that can help us win and that you are going to make a big mistake if you vote for me. What will make you believe me, if I say that, over someone else saying it?

I think what Hoops said after your post is pretty close to how I feel on some things.

If you vote for mercy always, then you never will rid yourself of the shadow. If you vote punishment, you might end up stripping someone useful of their power, but also could remove the shadow influence from them.

Worst case is you target someone who is useful, they give you enough of a convincing of that and you can then give them mercy and buy more time to look at them a bit more in depth before stripping them of their powers. It is my belief that with the tools we have available, its even more benefitial for us than normal to go heavy at the punishment.

If you feel no one will ever be able to convince you they are good or bad, and thus will always vote mercy, you're not helping us at all.

[Tyrith]

I agree with the punishment vote. We have to start clearing people. Any major candidates should role reveal, but we can stand to do without a majority of these roles, to the point where I'm not going to let off the gas just for the sake of keeping them around.

If I am forced to choose between alternatives today I will vote for ITC.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I think what Hoops said after your post is pretty close to how I feel on some things.

If you vote for mercy always, then you never will rid yourself of the shadow. If you vote punishment, you might end up stripping someone useful of their power, but also could remove the shadow influence from them.

Worst case is you target someone who is useful, they give you enough of a convincing of that and you can then give them mercy and buy more time to look at them a bit more in depth before stripping them of their powers. It is my belief that with the tools we have available, its even more benefitial for us than normal to go heavy at the punishment.

If you feel no one will ever be able to convince you they are good or bad, and thus will always vote mercy, you're not helping us at all.

I guess I am not that far off from where you guys are, but I just feel like day 1 is a different animal here, as the Shadow do not know one another, so we cannot even hope to get any kind of pattern here AND, I feel like tomorrow I will be able to make a much better decision, after my night action.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I guess I am not that far off from where you guys are, but I just feel like day 1 is a different animal here, as the Shadow do not know one another, so we cannot even hope to get any kind of pattern here AND, I feel like tomorrow I will be able to make a much better decision, after my night action.

I guess maybe I am mistaken and should go back and reread then. My understanding was the shadow brings more under its control through nightly conversions, and as time goes on you'll end up with more shadow who don't know each other as opposed to what you said. If there was any point during the entire game that all of the shadow know each other, I would assume it would be right now.

Maybe I just read that wrong though, and will go back to reread.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I guess I am not that far off from where you guys are, but I just feel like day 1 is a different animal here, as the Shadow do not know one another, so we cannot even hope to get any kind of pattern here AND, I feel like tomorrow I will be able to make a much better decision, after my night action.

The head shadow will know the other right now as they had a 100% chance to convert and they submitted the name.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

The Shadow

The Shadow starts with one player, and gains a second on Night 0. After that, each night they can try to gain more recruits. As a night action, each Shadow player chooses one player to try to convert, he focuses his shadow energies on him. As more are converted, the power of the shadow being is split among them. The first conversion had a 100% chance to succeed, when there are two players, each has 50%, when three, each has 33%, and so forth. The more the Shadow spirit is divided the harder it is for him to focus his energies for more conversions. Once the votes are sent to the GM I will total them up and start with the person receiving the most votes. Any total Shadow force that's 50% or more means an automatic conversion, IF the target player can be found and is not protected somehow. After that I will go down the list by percentage. It's possible no one will be converted in a given night, but there will never be more than one person converted.

Once a player has been converted by the Shadow, they can no longer use their original magical role. They can continue to use mundane roles if they wish.

The Shadow players will be able to communicate with all the other Shadow players, through a method I will reveal to them.

It's important to note that the Shadow players DO NOT know the identity of the other Shadow players. They can reveal themselves if they wish, but this will open them up to exposure if/when any of the other Shadows are cleansed. This also applies if they agree to vote for a certain person, but it might be worthwhile if they want to convert a key person. They will be able to communicate with each other, but anonymously.

Yeah, re-reading this, I think Swaggs you are either really off base or just giving faulty logic, as the longer the game goes, I think the less likely it is that all of the shadow players will know each other.

Some other things that caught my eye though..

I had originally assumed that the shadow's power is weakened the more its divided as in the number of players it controlled. Re-reading this though, it appears its only divided by the individual actions of those controlled by the shadow. If everyone controlled by the shadow puts in the same target for conversion, its still 100%. Also the rules indicate any time its 50% or more its an automatic conversion.. so we'll likely have conversions for a good bit of the game. They also have the ability to communicate even if anonymously with each other. I have to assume that a major topic of discussion there would be whom the conversion target would be.

The other thing that caught my interest is that once converted, the player will no longer be able to use their magical role, but would be able to use their mundane role still. I noticed earlier there were some discussions that someone started about who had mundane roles. Perhaps the early targets of the shadow would be those whom would bring additional powers with them to the shadow once converted. I'll go back and re-read to see who it was encouraging others to indicate if they had mundane powers or not. I think at this point, it would be wise to not say one way or another about that.

[Mustang]

I'm just going with one of the most quiet right now (actually 4 so just picking someone randomly) I have a feeling being very quiet in the game isn't going to help much and it absolutely sucked in the Rome game so, for now

Vote Joe

Vote Punishment

Will change depending on involvement on day 1...

[hoopsguy]

I'm going to throw out a pretty random vote, because I don't have much of a feel so far. Tyrith posted in defense of Barkeep's "role reveal" earlier, suggesting that he does this every game. While it is a fair statement, it also perked up my attention just a little bit. Is there any reason to defend Barkeep more or less than any other player? I know in the past I've put comments like this out as a wolf early in the game as an attempt to garner a small measure of trust later in the game.

It is damn thin. I guess the alternative is random.org or some past grudge, but I'll at least provide some state of mind information for my shot in the dark.

VOTE TYRITH/PUNISHMENT

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So did anyone give any thought to my role/item classification idea? Seems like it was ignored. Do you all think that is a bad idea? Personally, with so much information in the mechanics of this game, I think we could really use something like that to wrap our heads around the tools and abilities we have available to us.

Speaking of bad ideas, mass-revealing == very bad, IMO. And the game Barkeep is referring to--he was a wolf. Not saying he is now, or advocating he should be considered suspicious for the suggestion; just noting it was a wolf who proposed that strategy in that game. I'm not too keen on strategies originally proposed by wolves, if you know what I mean.

I have one of the magical roles above, but no magic item. I also have a mundane role ability. Does everyone have one of those?

I will be leaving soon, so I am afraid I will have to vote early. It will be a random vote with pretty much no evidence behind it, of course.

Originally Posted by Mustang

Subtle way to fish for information...

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Heh heh nothing sneaky here. I have a mundane role ability. Reading the mechanics, it seems likely to me there are other such mundane role abilities out there, likely some repeats, with everyone having one. The mechanics point out that cleansing doesn't remove these abilities.

Not asking for everyone to say what their mundane ability is, just noting is another aspect of the game we shouldn't ignore, and I think we should consider at least seeing if everyone has one of those, or if it's just a select few.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i think i know what you're talking about in terms of mundane roles that cleansing doesn't remove, and if so i know i clearly have them.

This was the discussion about mundane abilities that didn't really set off anything first path through. I'm wondering if the shadow would be so out open on trying to get that information, or just wait for someone more analytical to push that topic to the front. Mustang seemed to understand it was rather important right away though.

[Alan T]

Ok, I have a totally different question for those of you already looking to vote punishment.

My thought was we put our names up, and later today would know who the likely choice would end up being. It would give them time to state their case and at that time we could decide punishment or mercy. Like I said before, I likely would vote punishment unless given a good reason not to, however I still had that little wiggle room if someone ended up being chosen with a role that just seemed unlikely to be shadow right now and it wasn't worth the risk/reward of punishing them right away.

It seems that many people are voting punishment/mercy right away as part of their person vote so I'm wondering if:

A) People assume its all one vote incorrectly instead of the two votes it really is
B) People don't really care about what the defense will be and have their mind set to vote punishment or mercy regardless of who it is or what the person says

[Mr. Wednesday]

I suspect a lot of it is (B). At the moment, we as a group seem to feel there's less to lose by punishing than there is to gain by mercy. That's my reading of the way things are trending so far.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

The head shadow will know the other right now as they had a 100% chance to convert and they submitted the name.

Peregrine noted upthread that this was done at random. I'd guess he originally was going to have the first shadow do as you said, and then decided for reasons of game mechanics that it was better to for the first shadow to not know who the first convert was.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I suspect a lot of it is (B). At the moment, we as a group seem to feel there's less to lose by punishing than there is to gain by mercy. That's my reading of the way things are trending so far.

Well I guess the scenerio I bring up is:

What if the person who is up for punishment/mercy ends up coming out and saying "I'm the Medium, or I'm the Spiritualist" or something along those lines. It appears that all of the magical roles are from the list there, and some of them might be handier than others. I think if someone came out saying they were a role that might be pretty useful in our effort to clense people of the shadow, I might reconsider being merciful.

If someone chooses to not defend themselves, or end up with some expendable role, I still say I likely will choose to punish. I just know my mind hasn't been made up until people have had their chance to defend themselves.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by rules

Magical Items

There are a number of magical items scattered around the complex. This is most of, but not all, the magical items that can be potentially found. Note that some of the items can only be used at night, others only during the day, and some at either time.

Message me with any specific questions.


Potion of Weariness - A person who drinks this potion is unable to cast a vote in either vote the next day, but able to speak normally.

Potion of Alertness - A person who drinks this potion is active and alert through the night, and able to see what goes on in his room. This gives him a good chance to identify people that come in and what they are doing. Also, this potion makes even the magical sleep of the mercy option or other magical abilities impossible.

Potion of Sleep - This potion will put a person to sleep for the night, they will not be able to take a night action, and night actions on them are more successful.

Potion of Power - This potion is said to drastically increase magical power, temporarily. If it is drunk by someone who has been cleansed, it miraculously restores their powers and their former role (but not any former Shadow corruption.) If it is drunk by a normal person, it boosts their magical powers for the next day and night cycles after it is taken. This allows night actions to be much more effective and useful (even for the Shadow!) and also makes a person immune to cleansing during the next day cycle.

Potion of Masking - This potion is only effective when taken at night. It sheathes the drinker in a magical mask that allows him to shrug off all night actions aimed at them, including Shadow attempts.

Potion of Darkness - IMPORTANT! This potion used to be something useful but has been corrupted by the Shadow's arrival. When found, it will look like one of the other potions. When drunk, horrible things can happen, up to and including being corrupted by the Shadow. This potion is fortunately rare.

Scroll of Identity - This magical parchment can be read one time, to magically learn the role of one player. This will reveal both magical and mundane roles, but not whether a person is corrupted or not. Note that in the case of the Sun spies, this will reveal their TRUE role.


Ring of Shadows - This ancient ring grants the power of invisibility by drawing shadows to the user. It can be used on two different nights to protect the player from harm. Also, if desired it can be used once (and destroyed) to use a night action to search out the shadow beings and find one of them.

Mask of Whispers - This is a small mask that can be put over the lower part of the face. It allows the wearer to once each day send one short (two lines or less) PM message to someone, and get a short message in reply. Must run through the GM, you can identify yourself or not.

Triune Pyramid - A small golden pyramid which if possessed, makes the bearer immune to other magical effects, including items, being corrupted by shadow, and even being cleansed. However, there is an increasing chance it will shatter if exposed to a lot of magical stress.

Ritual Dagger - This long dagger is made of gleaming silver and is used in certain darker rituals. It has been tied into the magical abilities of everyone in the coven, and so can be used to find a specifed person even if they are hiding or using another magical ability to hide themselves. The dagger can be used as a free night action.

Seal of Command - This seal of enchanted black wax boosts the user's command capabilities, people listen to him or her. It can be used to break a tie in either the name or the punishment vote. Contact the GM by 8:00 PM EST with who you choose.

Ring of Wisdom - This Ring allows the user to cast one secret vote each day. The vote is a name vote only, not a punishment vote. The vote must be sent to the GM before the deadline and will be announced immediately. It cannot be changed. Once the vote is cast the GM will announce "The Ring of Wisdom casts a vote for XYZ!"

in order to make it easier to read and reference I broke the Magical Items into one post and roles in another.

RED=More benefit to bad
BLUE=More benefit to good
GREEN=Could benefit either

these are my opinions and I welcome comments.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Peregrine noted upthread that this was done at random. I'd guess he originally was going to have the first shadow do as you said, and then decided for reasons of game mechanics that it was better to for the first shadow to not know who the first convert was.

ahh thank you I must have missed that while rereading the rules I printed out for my good/bad/neutral thing I just posted.

[hoopsguy]

Alan, my vote on Punishment at this point is because I do not know if I'll be available at deadline or in the thirty minute window following. Which leaves me with the option of putting in P/M vote along with person now or risking that I won't be able to get it in at all.

I'm hoping that others have more consistent deadline availability than I will this game to move the vote towards Mercy if it is needed. And I'm certain willing to move it in the event that I'm around at deadline - will likely depend on traffic most days.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Mustang seemed to understand it was rather important right away though.

I would think those abilities would be pretty important. I'd imagine they could range from anything from ability to find items easier (scrounging ability), ability to steal easier (thief) or maybe some magic items are just flat out stronger for some people. I wouldn't want to share any ability right now even if I had one. Imagine if there was a thief ability (+X% chance to steal). I'm sure the Shadow would like that ability on their side....

[path12]

OK, just had a chance to read through the thread. Random thoughts:

I agree with Tyrith re: Barkeeps mass reveal post. He has been very consistent in his stance on this issue, and I don't think that it carries any special significance that he did it again this game. Besides, as usual it looks like the vast majority disagree with him anyway (as I also do in this particular instance).

I have a listed role and a mundane role. I do not plan on sharing them unless absolutely necessary, for I think it is far better for the cultists that way.

I have to go back through some of the roles, but have noted a couple hints by some people regarding theirs that will effectively leave them off of my voting list for today.

I understand hoops and Alan's thoughts regarding punishment/mercy, but I lean towards the mercy approach. I am thinking that the communication between shadow members will be limited rather than unlimited, weakening the power of communication that the bad guys usually have. Maybe a broadcast message each day by the head shadow or something along those lines.

It seems that the only way that the shadows could know each other short of reveals is via the conversion process. Since it is explicitly stated in the rules that the shadows do not know each other, I think it likely that the random conversion is unknown to the starting shadow player. To take that a step further, they would not know the future conversions either -- say if there are three shadows and they each name a separate person to try and convert, I would assume that there would be no notification of who's order went through -- and possibly not even if it did go through or not.

This is all just speculation, but it has me thinking that mercy is not a bad option for tonight while we give our helpful roles a chance to do their stuff.

As for a vote, I'll hold off for now. I would lean towards anyone who hasn't checked in around deadline.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Peregrine noted upthread that this was done at random. I'd guess he originally was going to have the first shadow do as you said, and then decided for reasons of game mechanics that it was better to for the first shadow to not know who the first convert was.

I think you phrased this better than I did. I agree.

[DaddyTorgo]

thanks for doing with the items sndvls.

I have no real read on who to vote for yet. I don't think I will have a really informed vote though, being D1 and all.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

The head shadow will know the other right now as they had a 100% chance to convert and they submitted the name.

I do not believe that is true. didn't Peregrine say that the second part of Shadow was done randomly?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

ahh thank you I must have missed that while rereading the rules I printed out for my good/bad/neutral thing I just posted.

It was in conversation, I don't think the rules reflect it.

[path12]

I'm not going to wait for my vote after all.

VOTE SCHMIDTY

We need participation in this game.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well I guess the scenerio I bring up is:

What if the person who is up for punishment/mercy ends up coming out and saying "I'm the Medium, or I'm the Spiritualist" or something along those lines. It appears that all of the magical roles are from the list there, and some of them might be handier than others. I think if someone came out saying they were a role that might be pretty useful in our effort to clense people of the shadow, I might reconsider being merciful.

If someone chooses to not defend themselves, or end up with some expendable role, I still say I likely will choose to punish. I just know my mind hasn't been made up until people have had their chance to defend themselves.

IMO the medium can cause more harm then good at times. Not only do the rules state you may not learn anything, who is to say the person who came up clean today doesn't get converted tomorrow?

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

IMO the medium can cause more harm then good at times. Not only do the rules state you may not learn anything, who is to say the person who came up clean today doesn't get converted tomorrow?

Didn't Peregrine just say upthread that a cleansed person is very hard to reconvert? Or that there is just one or two roles that can even be reconverted (which we would find out at the original cleansing, wouldn't we?)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Lathum

IMO the medium can cause more harm then good at times. Not only do the rules state you may not learn anything, who is to say the person who came up clean today doesn't get converted tomorrow?

I just went down the list of roles and listed the first 2-3 roles that seemed benefitial to us. I'd have to think about that more, but just on the quick read of what a medium can do there, I think it would be better having them around than not having them. It at least seems more benefitial than my role. Sure with conversions, you always have to put a grain of salt in how far you trust someone...

You're not new to games though Lathum, you know we often have lists of people who were ok up to game day #X, and work on CoTs off of that at some point. For instance on game day 3, you couldn't say someone scanned as not being of the shadow on night 1 is still good, but you could say they wern't one of the original 2 shadows due to that scan. Which means in an attempt to find the original two shadows, they are not involved in that equation and help narrow down your choices.

Since people do not die in this game, this type of information might be pretty useful especially later in the game.

[KWhit]

Vote ImTheCrew

Vote Punish


I'm voting ITC because of inactivity - just nothing else to go on at this point. I am voting punish now because I might not be back until after 8:00. I hope that I am and can read through the thread and reassess, but can't be certain of that.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Those who have been cleansed are in general very trustworthy, because the Shadow can't corrupt them again. Though there is a very small chance someone could "recover" from being cleansed. But in general, they're trustworthy.

That's the one I was referring to.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

Didn't Peregrine just say upthread that a cleansed person is very hard to reconvert? Or that there is just one or two roles that can even be reconverted (which we would find out at the original cleansing, wouldn't we?)

I don't think Lathum meant someone who was cleansed due to the punishment vote. I think he was referring to someone who came up "clean" to a medium's scan. I agree with his point that a medium can't tell you who currently is affected by the shadow, but I think the information on who wasn't at a certain time is more useful than no information at all.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't think Lathum meant someone who was cleansed due to the punishment vote. I think he was referring to someone who came up "clean" to a medium's scan. I agree with his point that a medium can't tell you who currently is affected by the shadow, but I think the information on who wasn't at a certain time is more useful than no information at all.

Oh, OK. I still need to read the roles in more detail. I just focused on my own.

[Tyrith]

VOTE ITC
VOTE PUNISH

Encourage participation, soul cleanse UTRs!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't think Lathum meant someone who was cleansed due to the punishment vote. I think he was referring to someone who came up "clean" to a medium's scan. I agree with his point that a medium can't tell you who currently is affected by the shadow, but I think the information on who wasn't at a certain time is more useful than no information at all.

thats exactly what I meant. My concern is that people may put to much stock in a scan and that could cloud judgement.

[path12]

Can the Sun spies be converted? If so, does that rob them of whatever ability it is that they have?

[Mr. Wednesday]

If by converted, you mean converted to the Shadow, I can see no reason why they shouldn't be. Also, since any spy abilities seem to be mundane in character, I'd guess they would retain those.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

It was in conversation, I don't think the rules reflect it.

Correct...I was reading from the rules when that was posted and put in my response...it was futher clarified and correct in the thread.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

thanks for doing with the items sndvls.

I have no real read on who to vote for yet. I don't think I will have a really informed vote though, being D1 and all.

I'll give a more detailed break down of my opinion later on tonight.

Also I'm almost done w/ roles and will do the same there as some that are green actually sway one way or the other as the game goes forward.

[SnDvls]

Peregrine - you mention in the rules that if converted to a shadow a player loses their magical role/powers. Would this also effect them if they had created something as well they would lose it too? This goes into my analysis of the roles which is why I ask.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'm going to throw out a pretty random vote, because I don't have much of a feel so far. Tyrith posted in defense of Barkeep's "role reveal" earlier, suggesting that he does this every game. While it is a fair statement, it also perked up my attention just a little bit. Is there any reason to defend Barkeep more or less than any other player? I know in the past I've put comments like this out as a wolf early in the game as an attempt to garner a small measure of trust later in the game.

It is damn thin. I guess the alternative is random.org or some past grudge, but I'll at least provide some state of mind information for my shot in the dark.

VOTE TYRITH/PUNISHMENT

Absolute shadiest reason I've ever seen you use. To call what I did a defense is practically an out and out lie by itself :P