Discussion on FL "Don't Say Gay" bill

[Flasch186]

https://apnews.com/article/49dfb9a4f...6df8e96fd652cc


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[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

https://apnews.com/article/49dfb9a4f...6df8e96fd652cc


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guys guy guys----

It is ok. These teachers, who are already woefully underpaid, can just take it to court.

Easy peasy japaneasy

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think what I meant to say is that is there a line that exists that when crossed E will admit that we were right?

I didn’t mean to ask for a mea culpa today just that if it was even something considerable or is all of this debate, as I suspect it is, a worthless waste of time?

Hopefully that clears it up

Yup, I think this is fair enough, I did read it as you expected a mea culpa based on the link. Feel free to ask me you think the line has been crossed at the next "incident/episode/escalation etc." and I'll provide my honest thoughts.

I certainly don't think it's worthless if we have a somewhat respectful (vs sarcasm filled) debate, 2-way Q&A, back and forth. But that'll be for you to judge if it's worthwhile for you.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I didn't ask for a mea culpa. I might once teachers in Florida start getting arrested or lynched.

Okay, fine. Come back then.

Nevertheless, in asking for a mea culpa, Flasch is being provocative. I reframed the gist of what Flasch was saying into the following:

I thought we were discussing the link https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/13/polit...nda/index.html on the word "assault" but it's been somewhat reframed by your highlighted above. I'll answer based on the highlighted.

1) Yes, I concede the politicians (esp DeSantis) were targeting LGBTQ when they started the bill.

2) Yes, do agree more than likely it will not be consistently applied and there will be inevitable lawsuits. The reason why it won't be consistently applied is because the law does not get into details and there are things subject to interpretation. The inevitable lawsuits will correct what needs to be corrected, albeit likely painfully slow.

And did say below. I'll restate it this way - the law as passed is neutral re: straight/LGBTQ.

3) If you do not believe it is neutral in how the bill says the restrictions should be applied to straight/LGBTQ, then provide quotes from the bill and let's discuss.

Therefore, the reason why I do not believe it's an assault of public schooling, individual liberties is

4) I am discussing the law as passed, not individual motives

5) I don't see these "restrictions" put on teachers as unreasonable (I have many restrictions on what I can say to clients, co-workers). Teach what is in the approved curriculum. If its in the grey area, or you think it may be controversial, avoid the discussion and punt to parent/admin

6) Just for context, I view having teachers come to school, all dressed up in masks, face shield and some sort of protective cover to teach school BEFORE vaccinations as an "assault". That was risking one's life. A teacher being told not to discuss some topics not in the curriculum, nah.

So yeah, if/when something like below happens, let's come back and discuss "assault".

Can you provide a similar example in recent times (let's since 2000's) of a gay 3rd grade teacher who was murdered because of teaching/instructing a child?

Questions for you:

1) Let me know why you believe the bill as written is an "assault"? If you don't think the bill itself is an assault, but motives of the bill sponsors are an assault, then I don't disagree with you.

2) If you believe the "Don't Say Gay" bill as written is discriminatory re: straight/LGBTQ, provide some quotes. I am not an attorney, so I may well be wrong. Here's the bill https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bil...illText/er/PDF

[flere-imsaho]

We are clearly talking about two different things. This bill is part of an overall assault on public education by the GOP. Such a thing is very clear when taken in the context of a) everything else the GOP and their anti-public-schooling backers (e.g. DeVos family, Koch brothers) are doing and b) the very clearly intended fallout from the bill.

Shorn of context, of course, one could both a) read the bill as neutral and b) take the view that "assault" was not a relevant term for what is happening to public schooling in Florida (and elsewhere).

We are arguing from two very fundamental viewpoints. You may find my viewpoint alarmist, but I find yours naive. Let's leave it at that.


Speaking of alarmist, don't read the following if you don't want to be offended.

Spoiler

All that I ask is a mea culpa in the form of an "I'm sorry" when the GOP eventually round up my Jewish wife & sons. Thanks.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

We are arguing from two very fundamental viewpoints. You may find my viewpoint alarmist, but I find yours naive. Let's leave it at that.

Okay, I'm good with that. Yes, you are right, I do think you and some others are alarmist. I can also understand you think I am naïve.

Speaking of alarmist, don't read the following if you don't want to be offended.

In the context of your hidden statement (no, I'm not offended at all), let's set a timeline of 4 years (Aug 15, 2026) to revisit this statement. I assume if this does not happen, you'll have a similar "mea culpa" ready about you being an alarmist. If it does happen, I'll concede I was naïve.

[flere-imsaho]

2026 is probably a good look-back time to see how the GOP fared in the 2022 and 2024 elections and what they did in calendar 2025 assuming they fared well in both. 2030, pre-election, if we're still having elections, seems the right timing for a lookback for what I put in spoiler tags.

Of course, 2030 is our rough timing for moving out of the country, so....

[Edward64]

Okay, Aug 15, 2030 on what you put on spoiler tag. One of us will be doing a mea culpa.

[Flasch186]

Liars

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/17/healt...eat/index.html


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[Edward64]

In Oklahoma but guessing similar issues will happen in FL over the next year or two.

Teacher quits in protest after being punished for banned-books sign

[Flasch186]

Yesssss yessssss

I’m sure she’ll just sue to get her career back

Rremember that whole part about the opaqueness and the public maga folk going after these people. Won't be long before a teacher doesn't just quit and sticks up for themselves and gets swatted, stalked, threatened and hurt. When you asked in the past about people getting killed I was talking about the same ilk type that would show up at FBI offices to hurt people. The same people who Doxx [learned that word recently] to intimidate and expose their 'targets' home addresses so that crazy folk can stalk them. It has happened and will happen and to repeatedly ask people to reexplain what they mean and redefine what they mean and refocus the talk on that while NOT being able to talk about other things is just gaslighting to no end. Par for the course but you see the onion unfolding exactly as we said it would. It's happening in Florida and everywhere else that slip these MAGA opaque laws out there for enforcement by 'the people' so that they can actually tell other people what to do while imploring that no one can infringe on them and tell them what to do is rich.

And then to say the law is written in favor and at the behest of the MAGA extremists and their goals but its neutral is so dumb of a statement (youre not dumb - wanna make that clear so no one tries to suspend me for a month for calling a spade a spade like last time [btw isn't it incredible that others called that guy out for exactly what I did and he ended up bailing out because so many people started calling him out? I keep checking the mailbox for a postcard apologizing for my suspension but it hasn't arrived yet]) that I honestly think if you could take the statement back and reword things you would.

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[Edward64]

I don't think I'd want her to get her career back.

Looks like she was looking for a controversy and not going with the curriculum. I hate team members that have "drama", bad for the project and team dynamics. In a regular commercial world, that'll get you canned 99% of the time.

Kudos for sticking to your beliefs but if you want to play games with the system, go work for a private school which is more attuned to your beliefs OR go fight it out in court.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't think I'd want her to get her career back.

Looks like she was looking for a controversy and not going with the curriculum. I hate team members that have "drama", bad for the project and team dynamics. In a regular commercial world, that'll get you canned 99% of the time.

Kudos for sticking to your beliefs but if you want to play games with the system, go work for a private school which is more attuned to your beliefs OR go fight it out in court.

Or have enough teachers leave so that they have to cut three units of the ESE department and thus provide the parents taxpayer dollars to go to private schooling fulfill their special needs. The best part is prior to the units closing, the administration tried to guilt the teachers who left to come back for the sake of the children.

Note: the children have not gone to religious schools. The schools are more aligned with the for profit schools

[Flasch186]

This article on cnn right now about armed militias showing up at local libraries this causing the insurers to drop covering the fn library



Then watch the video and listen to the words of the maga snowflakes. Yes E someone is going to get hurt or killed. I mean this doesn’t involve the gays or the trans groomers or teacher groomers but nonetheless it’s literally the exact same cloth. You’re flat out wrong on this one. It’s hard though to admit it, I know it is. It’s ok.


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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

This article on cnn right now about armed militias showing up at local libraries this causing the insurers to drop covering the fn library



Then watch the video and listen to the words of the maga snowflakes. Yes E someone is going to get hurt or killed. I mean this defiant involve the gays or the trans groomers or teacher groomers but nonetheless it’s literally the exact same cloth. You’re flat out wrong on this one. It’s hard though to admit it, I know it is. It’s ok.


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Sorry, for whatever reason I'm not able to play your video. Feel free to link to a text or quote relevant passages. I think we know that sometimes you/I may not be clear on what our point is, so best to quote something so we can all refer back to what the original discussion was all about.

And, just so we are clear and there is no accusations of me moving the goal posts, the orig point of contention was 3rd grade teachers being killed (e.g. die, not hurt) because they instructed on "sexual orientation or gender identity" (see post #50).

I'm not sure what your link is about, but doesn't seem to be relevant to this point. But if we want to broaden the discussion to whatever else, happy to do it. Clearly state your discussion topic and let's have a civil discussion. But the expectation is you answer my questions as I answer yours.

[Flasch186]

Just go visit cnn.com


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[Flasch186]

I’m also not going to bite (as others moreso wasted their time explaining to you) into your misdirections and gas lighting (what’s your definition of ‘what’ type stuff?). I’d rather use my time more wisely but read others parts pointing out what you do above and then change their names to mine and you are reading exactly what I mean.

Your questions have been answered repeatedly but you don’t like the answers

Instead of me wasting time repeating others explaining it to you i’ll just say “this” and point up


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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Just go visit cnn.com

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Your cnn.com must be different from mine. I don't see it but I'm sure we have different interests.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I’m also not going to bite (as others moreso wasted their time explaining to you) into your misdirections and gas lighting (what’s your definition of ‘what’ type stuff?). I’d rather use my time more wisely but read others parts pointing out what you do above and then change their names to mine and you are reading exactly what I mean.

Your questions have been answered repeatedly but you don’t like the answers

Instead of me wasting time repeating others explaining it to you i’ll just say “this” and point up

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We'll agree to disagree. I'll just summarize and say, trying to keep things on topic, not moving goal posts, and not going off on a tangent.

[sterlingice]

I like how the goalpost in a thread entitled "Discussion on FL "Don't Say Gay" bill" is literally "3rd grade teachers being killed (e.g. die, not hurt) because they instructed on "sexual orientation or gender identity". That's the exact standard that one person will use to measure anything. Teachers being drummed out of the industry, education suffering, lawsuits gutting public schools, merely threats or harm to teachers but not death - nothing else would actually count as a negative effect from this bill somehow.

SI

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I like how the goalpost in a thread entitled "Discussion on FL "Don't Say Gay" bill" is literally "3rd grade teachers being killed (e.g. die, not hurt) because they instructed on "sexual orientation or gender identity".

That's the exact standard that one person will use to measure anything. Teachers being drummed out of the industry, education suffering, lawsuits gutting public schools, merely threats or harm to teachers but not death - nothing else would actually count as a negative effect from this bill somehow.

SI

I do think there are negatives that will come out of "Don't Say Gay" bill (just as there will be positives too).

But no, I do not think 3rd grade teachers will be killed for instructing on "sexual orientation or gender identify" when they should not have been.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I do think there are negatives that will come out of "Don't Say Gay" bill (just as there will be positives too).

But no, I do not think 3rd grade teachers will be killed for instructing on "sexual orientation or gender identify" when they should not have been.

"I do think there will be negatives, but the only one I will acknowledge is a 3rd grade teacher dying"

SI

[Flasch186]

This


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[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I do think there are negatives that will come out of "Don't Say Gay" bill (just as there will be positives too).

But no, I do not think 3rd grade teachers will be killed for instructing on "sexual orientation or gender identify" when they should not have been.

Also, things that apparently don't count in this ridiculously silo'd test:

• K-2nd grade teachers who are murdered by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're instructing about gender identity
• 4th-12th grade teachers who are murdered by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're instructing about gender identity
• Any grade teachers above or below 3rd grade for any of the following
• 3rd grade teachers who are murdered by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're teaching CRT
• 3rd grade teachers who are merely harmed by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're instructing about gender identity
• 3rd grade teachers who are merely threatened by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're instructing about gender identity
• 3rd grade teachers who are murdered by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're instructing about gender identity but that's not what his lawyer says was the reason he did it
• 3rd grade teachers who are murdered by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're instructing about gender identity but also has stuff about how he thinks Dems are groomers and all sorts of other crap so we can't confirm that he killed the teacher just because of gender identity - it could have been any myriad of things from his tapestry of crazy
• 3rd grade teachers who are murdered by a radicalized nutter because he thinks they're instructing about gender identity and totally has horrible stuff about it on his social media history but "we just can't know what's in his heart"

Also not included in the above but apparently don't count either:

• Impacts of loss of job for individual qualified teachers
• Massive teacher shortage in Florida
• Any negative effects of having unqualified teachers teaching in Florida from individual bad incidents that would likely not have happened with professional teachers to larger effects like education disparity
• Impacts on society of a less educated populace because of any the above
• The chilling effect on free speech that laws like this have
• Any of the other myriad of other bad effects mentioned in this thread or even ones not mentioned in this thread

Good thing none of that counts. Or at least not in this thread.

It's almost as if, after at least a dozen thoughtful posts by someone with a lot more expertise in the area as well as other competing viewpoints, you've shrunk your rhetorical "attack space" to such a tiny place. All that by looking at it through a ridiculously silo'd perspective that has nothing at all to do with the real world implications of the intent of the bill.

Or maybe it's just a bad faith argument. But go ahead, agree to disagree. Just don't be surprised when it keeps getting pointed out how demonstrably farcical is it on its face when you keep saying "but, hey, at least a 3rd grade teacher didn't die" and "anything else is goalpost moving".

SI

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

"I do think there will be negatives, but the only one I will acknowledge is a 3rd grade teacher dying"

SI

Huh? I'm not the one that initially brought up a 3rd grade teacher dying? In fact, I consider it alarmist (repurposing Miami_Fan's adjective, but not saying he applied it here).

If that's what you think I did, you are mistaken.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

It's almost as if, after at least a dozen thoughtful posts by someone with a lot more expertise in the area as well as other competing viewpoints, you've shrunk your rhetorical "attack space" to such a tiny place. All that by looking at it through a ridiculously silo'd perspective that has nothing at all to do with the real world implications of the intent of the bill. [

Or maybe it's just a bad faith argument. But go ahead, agree to disagree. Just don't be surprised when it keeps getting pointed out how demonstrably farcical is it on its face when you keep saying "but, hey, at least a 3rd grade teacher didn't die" and "anything else is goalpost moving".

SI

I think you believe my argument is focused on 3rd grade teacher being killed and that is the only con I see? If so, per above, you are mistaken. I didn't initially bring it up and I certainly don't think it's a valid con.

If you think I am wrong about this, re-read #50 (and earlier) and then please quote me to show that I am wrong.

However, if you think I misunderstood the intent of your manifesto, can you please simplify and restate?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I do think there are negatives that will come out of "Don't Say Gay" bill (just as there will be positives too).

But no, I do not think 3rd grade teachers will be killed for instructing on "sexual orientation or gender identify" when they should not have been.

The only people who think anything positive will come from this are homophobic, transphobic, etc...

We are already seeing effects from the all out assault on "woke" teachers and it is the tip of the iceberg. A Librarian losing their insurance because her job is to risky. Are you fucking kidding me?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The only people who think anything positive will come from this are homophobic, transphobic, etc...

We are already seeing effects from the all out assault on "woke" teachers and it is the tip of the iceberg. A Librarian losing their insurance because her job is to risky. Are you fucking kidding me?

I would like to understand the situation better. Per my earlier post, I am not able to view the video and I did not find it on my cnn.com. Can you post a link to the article?

[Lathum]

took 2 seconds

idaho librarian - Google Search

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

took 2 seconds

idaho librarian - Google Search

CNN gave me below. Beats me (but will read up on the other links).

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2022/0...tt-pkg-vpx.cnn

There was an issue with accessing the network for media playback. The sub-error code will contain what specific resource was unable to be accessed over the network. | NETWORK_ERROR encountered, code: 1400

[Edward64]

Read the first 2 links below.

From what I'm understand, she is not a school librarian but public library in Idaho. There are some that are wanting removal of some books they consider as "grooming".

The articles did not say there were any laws that limited what books a public library can provide. One of the article said there were "armed" people at a board meeeting(s), neither said there was "armed militia" as per in the orig post here. Idaho is open carry.

Idaho library director resigns over intimidation and ‘political atmosphere of extremism' | Local | idahostatejournal.com
Idaho librarian resigns over ‘atmosphere of extremism’ and ‘intimidation tactics’ | LGBTQ+ rights | The Guardian

With that in mind ...

1) I'd say yes, there shouldn't be any restriction on what a public library has or can allow someone to check out (unless there is a state law somewhere)

2) I don't see any issue with someone with weapons in a board meeting as the state is open carry and it's allowed legally. However, I will say that the board meeting should probably have insisted on no weapons. If they did but it was not obeyed, it was not clear in the article.

3) Per Lathum's comment, I did not read anything about below. Maybe a different article? Are you sure you and Flasch are talking about the same thing?

A Librarian losing their insurance because her job is to risky

4) I think the main idea of the article is the librarian was intimidated by "Moms for Liberty" (group linked to deeply pocketed rightwing groups and conservatives, by Republicans to prevent the teaching of race and gender identity in schools) and their supporters who had weapons.

No person should feel intimidated by armed people for doing their job (or for teaching/doing approved curriculum). This is wrong.

I'll go back to what I posted earlier ...

I'm not sure what your link is about, but doesn't seem to be relevant to this point. But if we want to broaden the discussion to whatever else, happy to do it. Clearly state your discussion topic and let's have a civil discussion. But the expectation is you answer my questions as I answer yours.

[Atocep]

I don't know where this fits best, but it involves Florida schools so I'm putting it here.

6th Grade assignment today, Nolan Elementary School, Bradenton, FL, Desantistan. pic.twitter.com/KSIpNc0t4L

— Ron Filipkowski 🇺🇦 (@RonFilipkowski) September 1, 2022

[Flasch186]

Who could’ve imagined that teachers were worried about the opaque law?



I’m sure she was a terrible teacher anyways that can be replaced by an ex-marine or their spouse. SMH

I can’t imagine why she wouldn’t just stick it out, get threatened, get fired, and then spend a bunch of money suing to get her job back.


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[Flasch186]

Able to track down a Trans streamer and threaten her in RL… this is what I’m saying is going to happen when teachers are in the cross hairs and some harbinger of the maga right starts to spin on a teacher that the teacher groomed or whatever. It’s going to happen… might not be a 3rd grade teacher though so it’s all good.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/04/tech/...ked/index.html


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[larrymcg421]

"While I agree that these laws mandating literacy tests for voting are aimed at black people, the text of the laws do not mention race and should do a good job of making sure illiterate people do not vote. If it does apply in a racist manner, then minorities can hire a lawyer and sue."

[whomario]

Hillsdale, Michigan Christian college, is infiltrating Florida’s schools.

Just normal DeSantis stuff

[Flasch186]

Not a 3rd grade teacher… yet

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/15/us/bo...are/index.html


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[Edward64]

Not even in the same football field in the same city.

Happy to change thread title to "All things LGBTQ+" if you want.

[Flasch186]

Right

Doesn’t reflect the willingness of the MAGA crowd to slowly move from thought, to threat, to action in the same vein of what i said would happen regarding violence. Mmmhmmm

Those heels are dug in so tight


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[Lathum]

I live in a very red section of NJ, so we have our share of idiots who think kids are being groomed in schools, etc....

So today we got the full health curriculum for the district. I went through grades k-3 and did a search for gay, trans, and anal. Not one hit except analyze.

Jumped to 7th grade, where my oldest is, searched gay, transgender, anal, liter box, critical race theory. Not one hit for any of them.

It is almost as if right wing media is gaslighting people in an attempt to create a culture war.

[Flasch186]

I'm sure you didn't look hard enough or your interpretation is wrong.

[HerRealName]

Yeah, you need to look for the word 'diversity' and maybe any indications that racism and bullying is discouraged.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is almost as if right wing media is gaslighting people in an attempt to create a culture war.

It's bigger than that. Like elections, they are trying to destroy the institution by breaking people's faith in, and support of, public education. They want kids educated in Christian schools with a set curriculum that breeds future Christian nationalists. It's one of the ways they are combatting the country's changing demographics.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I live in a very red section of NJ, so we have our share of idiots who think kids are being groomed in schools, etc....

So today we got the full health curriculum for the district. I went through grades k-3 and did a search for gay, trans, and anal. Not one hit except analyze.

Jumped to 7th grade, where my oldest is, searched gay, transgender, anal, liter box, critical race theory. Not one hit for any of them.

It is almost as if right wing media is gaslighting people in an attempt to create a culture war.

Your kids in a private school?

There is no doubt more and more LGBT+ curriculum is being rolled out nationwide (plenty of articles out there), there is no "gaslighting" about this if that's what you mean. Now if you mean gaslighting as in "grooming" aka "making kids gay", I don't disagree with you.

NJ law was passed in 2019-2020 so maybe books not yet created? Below law is for middle school+ (although I read some other blurb it was K-12) so assume you should have (or will) see something for your 7th grader.

FWIW, I do think middle school is a good age to start discussing. 3rd graders, not so much

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...ogram-n1134436

A year ago, New Jersey became the second state, following California, to pass a law requiring public schools to incorporate an LGBTQ-inclusive curriculum into their classrooms; Colorado and Illinois soon followed suit. And ahead of the statewide law, which goes into effect in September, the nonprofit groups Garden State Equality and Make It Better for Youth rolled out a pilot program last month in 12 public schools across the state, including Newark Arts High School, that will run until the end of the school year in June.

[Lathum]

Nope. Public school.

[sterlingice]

It's funny how some people equate teaching about LGBT to sex no matter what age. Like when you're talking to 3rd graders about it, it would be "you have a mommy and a daddy but your classmate Billy has two daddies, like many other people" as opposed to "last night Billy's dad was sticking his penis in Billy's other daddy's butt". Actually, funny isn't the right word, it's just creepy.

SI

[Edward64]

Creepy speculation for sure.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

It's funny how some people equate teaching about LGBT to sex no matter what age. Like when you're talking to 3rd graders about it, it would be "you have a mommy and a daddy but your classmate Billy has two daddies, like many other people" as opposed to "last night Billy's dad was sticking his penis in Billy's other daddy's butt". Actually, funny isn't the right word, it's just creepy.

SI

Also,showing/describing, say,the figures in a math/english book as black, asian, gay or transgender isn't grooming. It also doesn't make them "xxx Curriculum".

But it's frankly a joke to even pretend any of these 'arguments' are more than concern trolling or strawman arguments. The goal is pretty clear.

Gov. Ron DeSantis defiles UF with selection of Ben Sasse as president

[Edward64]

Did a check and saw below recent article on lawsuit progressing through the system. Good to see the challenges. It's how our system works and we'll see if it stands the test of time and/or law needs finetuning.

Federal judge rejects challenge to Florida’s so-called ‘don’t say gay’ law

The LGBTQ advocacy groups Equality Florida and Family Equality, students, parents and teachers filed the lawsuit in March and an amended version in May. The lawsuit alleged, in part, that the law violated First Amendment and due-process rights.

In his order, Winsor did not rule on the constitutionality of the law. He focused on a threshold issue of whether the plaintiffs showed they had standing to pursue the case — and concluded that they had not met that requirement.

Winsor gave the plaintiffs 14 days to file a revised lawsuit.

Haven't seen any deaths yet but will keep on checking every month or so.

4) The teacher is killed/murdered (lets not change your orig wording from "die" to "attacked") by a loon because he/she brought this lawsuit

[Flasch186]

Is this lawsuit a teacher suing to get their job back?


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