Soccer Thread 2022-2023

[miami_fan]

Let's overreact shall we?

I heard Manchester United were pretty good in the preseason. Everything seemed to be going okay. The first two games of the season, they were horrible. The third game, they played pretty well again.

Hmmm, I wonder what was different between the preseason and this game and the first two games.

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Let's overreact shall we?

I heard Manchester United were pretty good in the preseason. Everything seemed to be going okay. The first two games of the season, they were horrible. The third game, they played pretty well again.

Hmmm, I wonder what was different between the preseason and this game and the first two games.

I'm stumped. Unless it's supporters threw beer and shouted 'murderers' at a bus full of young United supporters.

https://twitter.com/BeelineVIPcoach/...74557706567685

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

OK fine. Effectively, there is no salary cap.

Or, to go back to answering Ksyrup's question a little more directly, in most leagues*, there's no real guardrails to keep clubs from spending more than they can afford, and conversely a lot of incentive to do just that in chasing the more money available in either a) the top league in their country and/or b) UCL money.


*probably not the Bundesliga

Sorry about my semantics blahblah. Essentially I agree that your point stands. Leagues proclaim to have salary roofs, but in reality the "super league" clubs are not held to them.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Let's overreact shall we?

Quite.

Manchester United, a team that has historically been pretty good playing counter-attacking football (including almost exclusively under Solskjaer), manages a win against a heavily depleted Liverpool squad that only plays a high pressing game and is thus susceptible to good counter-attacking teams.

If Thiago or Fabinho play this game at the base of midfield, this is likely a different result. If one of those play and Nunez isn't suspended, this is likely a very different result. On that second point, Michael Cox on the Athletic pointed out that Firmino's tendency to play super-deep actually took pressure off of United's to-date weak center midfield & center defense.

While the fan in me hopes this is the start of a renaissance, my head is not quite sure.

Having said that, kudos to ETH for dropping Maguire, who clearly has lost his confidence, and for dropping Ronaldo, whose absence opened up a ton of space for the four forward players to exploit.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Leagues proclaim to have salary roofs, but in reality the "super league" clubs are not held to them.

Agreed.

[sovereignstar v2]

.

[flere-imsaho]

(@ sovereignstar :P )

[sovereignstar v2]

He's such a beast.

https://streamja.com/zbqQN

[flere-imsaho]

I have one word for that Man City game and that word is ominous.

[flere-imsaho]

You really have to feel for Scott Parker and the rest of the Bournemouth AFC side, there.

[MrBug708]

I made the mistake of turning the Palace game on at halftime yesterday. Oops.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

For the amount they're paying for Casemiro and were prepared to pay for Antony (a highly-rated young player from the Eredivisie, where have we heard that before?), they probably could have bought Declan Rice, a proven operator in the EPL at the base of midfield.

Antony has taken the prima donna approach and has missed today's and last weekend's Eredivisie games. Latest rumors are Manchester United has upped their bid to €95M for the kid. No, he's not worth that kind of money, especially not with that kind of attitude, or does he?

[flere-imsaho]

Manchester United's valuation of player targets seems to mainly be based on how much it'll take for the selling club to finally say "yes".

The Athletic pointed out that United's bench for the Southampton game cost over 300M (GBP) in transfer fees, and almost 200M of that never came off the bench in the game. Plus, only 7 players on that bench cost the club at least 1M in wages weekly.

It's kind of like the anti-moneyball.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Antony has taken the prima donna approach and has missed today's and last weekend's Eredivisie games. Latest rumors are Manchester United has upped their bid to €95M for the kid. No, he's not worth that kind of money, especially not with that kind of attitude, or does he?

The best part of the transfer for me is as of this post, Transfermarkt still shows that his valuation was 31.5 euros as of Jun 8 2022. So he tripled in transfer valuation in just over two months. He reportedly is now making ten times the salary he made with Ajax. I am not saying it is right in a sporting sense for him to sit out the games. However in a business sense, I think it was in the best interest of both Antony and Ajax that he not be injured in those games if this was the reward for both the player and the club.

I just spent a week in London. The only times I heard anyone being concerned with FFP were when they were complaining about Barcelona, wondering how Nottingham Forest could make so many transfers and complaining about Newcastle but that was only after they signed Alexander Isak.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The best part of the transfer for me is as of this post, Transfermarkt still shows that his valuation was 31.5 euros as of Jun 8 2022. So he tripled in transfer valuation in just over two months. He reportedly is now making ten times the salary he made with Ajax. I am not saying it is right in a sporting sense for him to sit out the games. However in a business sense, I think it was in the best interest of both Antony and Ajax that he not be injured in those games if this was the reward for both the player and the club.

Fair point, Antony is one of those players that gets hurt every 10 games. I'm sure Manchester United is aware of it, otherwise they would have spent the full €100M for him.

[flere-imsaho]

That's what the 5M in potential addons is for.

[sovereignstar v2]

Here we go. Midweek matches, weekend matches, then UCL starts next week. Haaland is going to be rotated, which is going to lower his chance to hit 100 league goals as I predicted internally.

[sovereignstar v2]

haaland

[sovereignstar v2]

lmao another hat trick

[flere-imsaho]

Three goals in 38 minutes, substituted after 68 in a 6-0 win. At least he was substituted for an untested academy youth... oh wait, Kevin De Bruyne came on for him.

Welp.

[sovereignstar v2]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ch9_2...YmMyMTA2M2Y%3D

[miami_fan]

What is the American equivalent of the term " Chel-ski"?

[Critch]

Chel$ea?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Critch

Chel$ea?

Not derisive enough.

[Ksyrup]

Rogers has to go soon, right? It's apparent he hasn't been on the same page as management as far as money issues and it seems like he's pissed he stayed and this isn't a top 10 team. However, this team has the same flaws as last year plus the talent is headed in the wrong direction. It's like a mixture of entitled coach who won't change his tactics, failure to rectify defensive problems, disgruntled players, and Vardy is too old to play savior every game.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Rogers has to go soon, right? It's apparent he hasn't been on the same page as management as far as money issues and it seems like he's pissed he stayed and this isn't a top 10 team. However, this team has the same flaws as last year plus the talent is headed in the wrong direction. It's like a mixture of entitled coach who won't change his tactics, failure to rectify defensive problems, disgruntled players, and Vardy is too old to play savior every game.

I think that Rodgers should get a bit more time to try to rectify the flaws from last year. However, from the outside looking in when you combine that with the bitching about the transfer window, he should definitely go.

I don't know what the transfer policy structure is at Leicester City but as far as I can tell, everyone on that team either was brought in while Rodgers was there or had their contracts extended while Rodgers was there. If the talent is going in the wrong direction, that has to be on Rodgers in some part. I get Rodgers' frustrations about not being able to bring any players this window. However, they did bring in four first team squad players in 19/20, two in 20/21, four in 21/22, and only one this past window since Rodgers got there. They lost three players of real value. Harry McGuire in 19/20, Ben Chillwell in 2021 and Wesley Fofana this year. No disrespect to Kasper Schmeichel but I don't think he was of any real value to the club at this point.

So while he has not been backed this window, he has been backed since he got there. Those are his players on the pitch. They should be better right now. It's early, but for them to be at the bottom of the table at this point is embarrassing.

[flere-imsaho]

A club like Leicester has to work with the fact that their good players are going to be moving on regularly, and so the scouting/acquisition team needs to have long-term plans and contingencies. It sounds like that kind of setup is missing and Rodgers is maybe of the mindset that they should just be able to buy to replace whenever they need to, which simply isn't realistic.

It's a shame because in general this has been a well-run club.

[Ksyrup]

There's the first 6 games this year and his inability to grasp the situation (could the communication with management be that bad, or is he just pissed about the reality?), but then there's last year to factor in as far as on-field issues that the coaching staff hasn't fixed. Yeah, the finishing spot wasn't bad last year but they were terrible on set pieces and had an uncanny knack for giving up late leads and/or allowing goals within 5 minutes of scoring them. That continued right into game 1 this year.

[Ksyrup]

As far as Schmeichel, I think it is more about his replacement. Not sure what the numbers show after 6 games, but after 3 or 4 Ward was last in the PL in expected goals allowed. Today, I thought he was unsure and noncommittal on some plays where he could have possibly had a better chance at stopping a goal. And that doesn't even account for the screwup where his kick got blocked on a clearing pass and almost gave up another easy one - then got into it with Ndidi. From the little I've seen, he's a negative WAR kinda guy which is not a thing you want to have as the goalie on an underperforming team.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

A club like Leicester has to work with the fact that their good players are going to be moving on regularly, and so the scouting/acquisition team needs to have long-term plans and contingencies. It sounds like that kind of setup is missing and Rodgers is maybe of the mindset that they should just be able to buy to replace whenever they need to, which simply isn't realistic.

It's a shame because in general this has been a well-run club.

I don't know how the setup could go missing. I mean, the club seemed to be doing well enough up until last year when they did not get rid of anyone of significance. I can see the argument that they just signed bad players since he got there but I don't hear a lot of people saying they don't have EPL players throughout that squad and people seem to be willing to spend a lot of money to get some of those players. TBH I don't blame Rodgers if he is of the mindset that the club should just be able to bring in sure-fire replacements. If that is the case, he should resign and try to get a job with one of the Big Six. Or he could have gotten them into the Champions League instead of finishing fifth two years in a row before finishing 8th last year. I don't say that in a mean way either. The Leicester model is not for every manager. But I have seen the Leicester model work with the right manager.

The fact remains that Leicester is 7th in the wage table in the EPL. They are spending more on wages than the clubs currently in 4th(Brighton), 8th(Brentford) and 9th(Leeds) combined. There is no excuse for that squad of players to be at the bottom of the league. Let's not forget that they put out a pretty strong lineup and went scoreless against a League Two side in the League Cup. Hopefully with the window closing, the coach and the team can focus on solely improving on the pitch.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

As far as Schmeichel, I think it is more about his replacement. Not sure what the numbers show after 6 games, but after 3 or 4 Ward was last in the PL in expected goals allowed. Today, I thought he was unsure and noncommittal on some plays where he could have possibly had a better chance at stopping a goal. And that doesn't even account for the screwup where his kick got blocked on a clearing pass and almost gave up another easy one - then got into it with Ndidi. From the little I've seen, he's a negative WAR kinda guy which is not a thing you want to have as the goalie on an underperforming team.

Replacing Schmeichel was going to be tough on any goalkeeper. He is a legend and was the club captain. Replacing him with a guy who the manager did not trust to be even their full time cup goalkeeper was definitely going to be tougher. Not saying that a manager can't replace a goalkeeper the further a club goes in a competition, but it is telling when they make the change when they are not longer facing teams in the lower divisions.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I don't know how the setup could go missing.

Fair. "Not being utilized", maybe?

TBH I don't blame Rodgers if he is of the mindset that the club should just be able to bring in sure-fire replacements. If that is the case, he should resign and try to get a job with one of the Big Six. Or he could have gotten them into the Champions League instead of finishing fifth two years in a row before finishing 8th last year. I don't say that in a mean way either. The Leicester model is not for every manager. But I have seen the Leicester model work with the right manager.

Exactly, this was what I was trying to say. Leicester just aren't at that level yet:

• Revenue of professional football clubs in 2022 | Statista

As you point out, Leicester are straining the wage budget pretty hard and I don't blame ownership for not wanting to try and go for broke to get Champions League money, given that essentially requires a down year for 3 of the big 6.

[sovereignstar v2]

Chelsea sack Thomas Tuchel. New owner is nuts.

[bhlloy]

New guy comes in with 300m of Tuchel’s signings, including what appears to be a suspiciously close to end of sell by date Aubameyang as the focal point in attack. Absolutely nuts.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

New guy comes in with 300m of Tuchel’s signings, including what appears to be a suspiciously close to end of sell by date Aubameyang as the focal point in attack. Absolutely nuts.

Were they Tuchel's signings? All of them?

This screams of the new owners who wanted their own manager in place all along but knew they could not fire a CL winning coach right off the bat. If he had not already been hired and fired by the club, I would have said they're going to hire Frank Lampard. I think Graham Potter would be a great hire but I don't know if it would be a great move for Potter. He has to take it if it is offered to him IMO. On one hand, it would be great if the club have a clear plan moving forward. On the other hand, the recruitment during this transfer window was all over the place. The new players that they brought in don't seemed to fit with each other, much less with the players who were there last year. Whoever the new guy is will very much resemble a contestant of an episode of Chopped.

[bhlloy]

If they spent 300m knowing they were going to fire him at the first possible occasion, I think that’s worse. Spending that much in the window and then firing the manager a week later is more likely to be poorly received by the fans than just saying he’s not your guy and letting a new manager have a full window and preseason.

Aubameyang is definitely a Tuchel signing, they got him because they worked together so well at Dortmund. And there were other signings they didn’t make because Tuchel didn’t want the player according to The Athletic. Stinks of Boehly having no idea what he’s doing and deciding to head down the Glazer path rather than the Henry.

[miami_fan]

I agree with your last sentence. I just don't think the spending and keeping Tuchel as head coach are necessarily related.

IIRC part of the negotiations of the sale of the club was maintaining a certain level of spending not only in the transfer market/wages but also in the infrastructure. If that is correct, then they were spending millions regardless of who the manager/coach. That manager/coach distinction is important here as is Boehly being interim sporting director.

I could see a situation where Todd Boehly bought $300 million of players that fit his vision of how he wants to see the club play. I mean that is what a sporting director is supposed to do right? Of course I have no idea whether Boehly has a vision of how he wants the team to play or if his vision matched Tuchel's but that is besides the point. Manager Tuchel says Yeah, these players don't fit what I do and/or they are not good enough. I want this guy and not that guy. Boehly gives him one or two but expects the coach to make it work while being grateful for the $300 million worth of transfers that his sporting director provided for him. Tuchel complains publicly. Boehly fires him because a) he is not allowing the coach to throw shade at him in the press and b) he keeps hearing that the previous owner would not tolerate the way this season has gone so far so he has to prove that he won't tolerate it either.

[sovereignstar v2]

Yes, they were Tuchel signings. They don't even have an actual sporting director, so who else would be providing input on who to sign?

[sovereignstar v2]

Tuchel was smart enough to prevent Chelsea from signing Ronaldo. The other idiots were absolutely going to sign him otherwise.

[miami_fan]

Potter may want to hold off and see what might be going on in Anfield.

Just kidding but that is a surprising score line.

[sovereignstar v2]

Kvaradona is brilliant for Napoli.

[bhlloy]

Pretty amazing when you think any team in the world could have had him for free last summer when he went home to play in Georgia

[sovereignstar v2]

So they got Potter, good for them. Hopefully it's good for him. Last summer still seems like a total fuck-up. From an The Athletic article yesterday:

Tuchel ended the journey with no inkling that his 100th match as Chelsea head coach would also be his last. His initial reaction to being summoned to a conference call and relieved of his duties early the next morning was a mixture of shock and disappointment. When those emotions subsided, his abiding impression from the organised nature of the meeting was that this decision had been taken well in advance of the Dinamo defeat.

High-profile free agent Mauricio Pochettino was also contacted, but Potter was the clear first choice. Understanding how Chelsea’s new owners settled on this drastic and ruthless course of action requires a closer look at the sequence of events that led to this point — a remarkable story that includes:

Tuchel delegating some recruitment meetings to his agent owing to tensions with owners
“Slapstick” moments as new owners got used to soccer, including a 4-4-3 formation Chelsea deny happened
Tuchel feeling he wasn’t given the signings he asked for
Too many players left feeling isolated or even ignored, with separate pre-season meetings
Tuchel believing he had verbally agreed a new contract with Chelsea
Tuchel feeling he was close to sack on pre-season over tensions with Behdad Eghbali
Boehly displaying detailed knowledge of Potter’s career in Cucurella meeting
How communication from owners dried up after Leeds defeat

"[Tuchel/I] am very glad I have the staff, not only my staff but also the football staff and we have a certain routine that I can rely on. It is very time-consuming (the recruitment conversations). It’s not my favourite thing to do and in the long run the focus has to be on coaching because it is why I am here. But at the moment, of course, my help is needed and wanted. It is of course necessary that I step up and take the responsibility.”

Boehly’s appointment as interim sporting director made for a slightly awkward dynamic with Tuchel. It is one thing having a difference of opinion with your club’s sporting director over a particular player, but it is very different when the sporting director also happens to be the co-owner of your club.

By the end of pre-season, Tuchel felt the meetings were endless, with different owners demanding his time at breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Tuchel did not in fact, perhaps understandably, always step up himself, instead sending his agent to recruitment meetings so he could focus on coaching the team. This is understood to have been an early source of tension with Chelsea’s new owners, who were seeking more direct communication with and input from their head coach as part of the process of identifying transfer targets.

A source close to Tuchel, who does not wish to be named to protect his job, counters that the former head coach was involved in every signing other than deadline day addition Denis Zakaria. When he did participate, Chelsea sources claimed his guidance was inconsistent.

When Boehly was intrigued by the possibility of signing Cristiano Ronaldo after meeting Jorge Mendes in Portugal, Chelsea’s head coach made his opposition to the potential deal known in no uncertain terms on several occasions. His opinion was informed by the problems he encountered managing Neymar and Kylian Mbappe at Paris Saint-Germain and from his own reservations about the player.

Boehly backed his head coach’s stance and abandoned the possibility, but relations were further strained by Tuchel publicly criticising Chelsea’s lack of transfer progress following a 4-0 pre-season humbling at the hands of Arsenal in Orlando.

Boehly openly described Tuchel as a “nightmare” to deal with on recruitment to a fellow Premier League executive and, in recent weeks, there has been a greater desire within the Chelsea hierarchy to present the nine players purchased for a total outlay in excess of £250million ($287m) this summer as club signings, rather than at the behest of the head coach. That even extends to Aubameyang, whose much-anticipated reunion with the man who unlocked him at Borussia Dortmund lasted a grand total of 59 minutes in Zagreb.

Tuchel argued that the harmony of his squad would be damaged by Ronaldo and helped by Aubameyang. The problem, however, was that any notion of harmony had already been lost.

[sovereignstar v2]

Longest preview video ever, but great watch if you are a City fan haha

[miami_fan]

After reading the article, I am going to lean towards Tuchel's side of things. There is nothing new about his lack of man management skills. He like Potter by the way seem to be all about coaching the players and working out tactics instead of dealing with transfers on a daily basis.

That being said, I still have some hope for the new owners. Once the new sporting director comes in, they won't feel the need to allegedly draw up tactics for the manager.

[miami_fan]

What is the deal with supporters having heart attacks at the matches? There was another one in the Barca v Cadiz match today. The Cadiz keeper ended up sprinting to throw a medical kit in the stands.

[bhlloy]

From what I can gather from online communities who have watched infinitely more games in the UK than I have going back a very long time, it probably always happened, they just would never think about stopping the game for a medical emergency in the crowd.

Probably a combination of a different era and the fact that the physios in the not too distant past probably weren't medically trained and didn't have much state of the art equipment beyond numbing spray/the magic sponge anyway. You would occasionally hear "if there is a doctor in the crowd please report to xyz" over the tannoy.

[sovereignstar v2]

haaland

[sovereignstar v2]

Dubz

Johan Cruyff Wonder Goal against Atlético Madrid - YouTube

[whomario]

If Haaland ever stays healthy for a whole season he'll top Ronaldo/Messi goal numbers.