What's up with .400 studios?

[Joe Canadian]

Just a general comment, even though I'm no longer with .400 Studios, I do wish they continue producing the games they have under their tent at this time. TPB, TPF, and TEW have tonnes of potential... I think people forget that two of those games were first generation titles, I think you'll see a different release scenario when the second versions come out.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Much, much, much more to the story than "they got the royal knife in the back", I'm not going to comment further, but there were reasons behind that situation.

I'm sure there are much more to ALL the stories coming out now that are giving Joe a bit of a black eye. I certainly don't give Druez's story a free pass, and I'm sure there's more to what Ryan is saying. And certainly, you can't attribute every mistake made by 400ss just to Joe. But you can't help but start to see some sort of pattern...

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by StormcloudCreations

heh ..not that many game reviewers will admit it, but from many people i've spoken to and info i've found, it happens more than most will acknowledge. Not necessarily "corruption" in the strictest sense, but...influencing. With "inside demos" and assorted flashy overtures and brand name awareness and reputation, these can influence some less experienced game sites and critics to proclaim a game the greatest ever, even without the benefit of a detailed review that covers all the good and bad points of a game. So a game ends up getting a "94%" rating, without really taking into account clear problems with the game (the latest MVP Baseball game, with its assorted problems and totally broken player development model out of the box, was a clear example of this).

The game review industry needs some regulation or standards of some type: Some of the info i've found out about a few Coliseum reviews and how they were put together just made me positively ill (one reason I went back to self-publishing).

I don't know if things have changed over the last few years, but as many of you know, I reviewed for Computer Gaming World from 1993 until I started work on FOF.

I certainly had developers contacting me, but never did they even hint at wanting favors. And CGW's policy was not to review patches or special builds, so those weren't even offered.

The one time CGW sent me something not out of the box was a disk EA had sworn was the final build of Madden football. Well, it wasn't, and the installation really did a number on my computer. I was so ticked I asked CGW to give the review to someone else.

Anyhow, I know the publishers are used to dealing with magazines with integrity. And I know how the contact with developers went, in that they just wanted to show off their games, not hurt anyone else.

And from my dealings with EA on the publishing side, I never heard anyone badmouth the competition. So I can't speak for small online magazines or make any blanket declarations, but I can say that my experiences in the field have all been honest ones. I've never had anything happen before along the lines of what Jason K. did, as far as I know. Nor would I encourage anyone to trash someone else's game. The last few months have been very puzzling and frustrating to me with respect to this issue.

[StormcloudCreations]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I don't know if things have changed over the last few years, but as many of you know, I reviewed for Computer Gaming World from 1993 until I started work on FOF.

I certainly had developers contacting me, but never did they even hint at wanting favors. And CGW's policy was not to review patches or special builds, so those weren't even offered.

Anyhow, I know the publishers are used to dealing with magazines with integrity.

And I think that's the issue: too often these days some integrity is sacrificed for being first in line to hype a big-budget title and proclaim its ultimate greatness. It's become too much of a "business" to remain totally objective in its profiling and assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of titles.

I've had reviewers contact me with Coliseum as well, and I had some good conversations with some of them. But my dealings with that whole thing as far as the reviews side of it (both with internal editors and the like) revealed a very ugly side of the business that I care not to get involved again, if possible. Some smaller editors I found out had a big bullseye painted on the game before it even got completely reviewed in some cases, and that really pissed me off. And after getting hundreds of e-mails from people who play lots of games who enjoyed it quite a bit, it made my hair stand on end.

It's bad enough that it was a 1st generation game with a fresh setting and approach worked on by basically one guy with 1/5000th the budget of most games on the sites that got no almost acknowledgment of those facts, but the venomous nature of some of the writings really got my goat. Not liking a game for valid, well-thought out reasons is fine, but using it as a punching bag is something else.

Anyhow, it sounds like you were a reviewer with integrity and a sense of wanting to do the right thing, and that seems to be a little shorter in quantity these days, from my dealings.

[hoosierdude]

If I remember correctly, Mr. Canadian was not privy to a lot of the inside goings on of CCPB and .400 Software Studios, since he was named a Community Manager after the split of .400 and OOTP Developments. So anything he could be posting about this subject would at this time would be secondhand knowledge from other interested parties.

[Marc Vaughan]

It's bad enough that it was a 1st generation game with a fresh setting and approach worked on by basically one guy with 1/5000th the budget of most games on the sites that got no almost acknowledgment of those facts, but the venomous nature of some of the writings really got my goat. Not liking a game for valid, well-thought out reasons is fine, but using it as a punching bag is something else.

Don't stress imho a bad review is better than none - bear in mind that CM's first review gave it a horribly low rating (under 30% I seem to recall) ... it was reviewed by a lady who didn't like soccer, not a great start to its career.

Main thing for any new game is to get it exposure, if its good enough then it'll build a fan base regardless of the individual review scores and word of mouth will grow the fan base over time if you stick at things and keep updating it ...

Have Fun,

Marc
PS. Coliseum is a unqiue and interesting game, if you haven't tried it then I'd definitely recommend it (I've tried the demo and am getting dangerously close to ordering it myself - only the fact that I've got to get FM finished is keeping me at bay ).

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Coliseum is a unqiue and interesting game, if you haven't tried it then I'd definitely recommend it (I've tried the demo and am getting dangerously close to ordering it myself - only the fact that I've got to get FM finished is keeping me at bay ).

Now, that review is one I'm sure Derek will love !

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I certainly had developers contacting me, but never did they even hint at wanting favors. And CGW's policy was not to review patches or special builds, so those weren't even offered.

CGW's policies have changed a lot in the last few years. From what I remember, they never ran "previews" or talked about anything but finished products. Nowadays, the preview (and hype) section is bigger than the reviews.

[StormcloudCreations]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

Now, that review is one I'm sure Derek will love !

I certainly do, especially from someone connected with CM and all of that. Thanks Marc, for your kind words. As far as making changes to it, i'm considering doing a sequel to the game with more features and enhancements, and an improved fancier interface. I"m trying to decide if it would be worth it or not.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by hoosierdude

If I remember correctly, Mr. Canadian was not privy to a lot of the inside goings on of CCPB and .400 Software Studios, since he was named a Community Manager after the split of .400 and OOTP Developments. So anything he could be posting about this subject would at this time would be secondhand knowledge from other interested parties.

As far as my comments in this particular thread go, the "much, much, much more" that I was referring to came from you ... and TC you should know by now, I trust you more than anyone I've worked with during my stint at .400 Studios.

And... I joined .400 Studios at least 3 months before the split, so I'm not sure where that is coming from??

[hoosierdude]

Thanks Steve for your kind words.

But the true story would only be from Markus, Arlie, Joe, and the programmers of CCPB about the seperation of CCPB and .400 Software Studios. Without all the particulars' speaking up about the situation, the real facts and story may never come out.

[Antmeister]

The only thing that is disappointing is that they waited this long to take any action. LIke everyone else, I don't know all the details. I have a feeling that OOTP or at least Puresim left because of how things were handled with the person in question. Just reading about the hockey developer left me with the feeling that .400 was indifferent about how Joe was handling things if this is true. In my opinion, they would be as much to blame as Joe himself, because they didn't take any steps to try to rectify the situation. I mean if this person is affecting the image and sales of the company, he should have been let go long ago. So with the post by Druez, and Ryan W(the hockey developer), Joe's termination and Puresim's departure from .400, it really makes you wonder how much of a detrimental effect Joe's actions may have caused to .400 as a whole.

[Buccaneer]

Some of you keep talking about "they". Who are "they"?

Dumb question. What is CCPB?

[Antmeister]

Dumb question. What is CCPB?

I believe it is Chunky Chili with Pork and Beef.

[vtbub]

Courtside Challenge Pro Basketball.

.400 was going to develop a pro basketballgame with Frank and Nancy from Jump Shot Basketball. That fell through and then Gary Gorski came in and developed Total Pro Basketball.

[Mac Howard]

Reviews have very little influence on games published on the Internet - potential buyers will take far more notice of users' comments on appropriate discussion boards than anything a reviewer will say. That's the problem for marketers over the internet - their efforts are quickly overwhelmed by users' opinions.

As Marc Vaughan says, the review merely alerts people to the existence of the game whether it's good or bad - a useful function as the Internet is a VERY big place and a game will go unnoticed otherwise.

[StormcloudCreations]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Reviews have very little influence on games published on the Internet - potential buyers will take far more notice of users' comments on appropriate discussion boards than anything a reviewer will say. That's the problem for marketers over the internet - their efforts are quickly overwhelmed by users' opinions.

As Marc Vaughan says, the review merely alerts people to the existence of the game whether it's good or bad - a useful function as the Internet is a VERY big place and a game will go unnoticed otherwise.

Well true...and that's what kept me from writing some of those editors I referred to earlier and giving them a piece of my mind...at least it got reviewed and some eyes maybe saw it that wouldn't have otherwise. I've liked and played a number of games that didn't get great reviews in the mainstream press mags and sites, so I figure others do too.

On appropriate discussion boards like GoneGold (and in private e-mails), Coliseum got mostly positive word of mouth for the most part (and not from "fanboys" or whatever), which is why the percentage and overall nastiness of many of the negative reviews shocked me. It was just...really weird.

It felt kinda good to have 9 different people (3 in one day!) write me after the IGN review, telling me they had cancelled their IGN Premium account after their Coliseum review and had little plans on ever reading a review from them again. I had to laugh.

Yes, I'll quit whining about it...

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Reviews have very little influence on games published on the Internet - potential buyers will take far more notice of users' comments on appropriate discussion boards than anything a reviewer will say.

This is probably true Mac, but as Marc noted above, merely getting reviewed by a major publication or website (such as TDCB and TPF getting reviewed on GameSpot) increases the potential buyer by a huge amount. People will not buy the game if they have never heard of it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

People will not buy the game if they have never heard of it.

That isn't always true. I bought both Baseball Mogul and Front Office Football as a result of Metacrawler searches for career sims in baseball and football. I'd never heard of either. I downloaded the demos, checked out the feature lists, and purchased.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

That isn't always true. I bought both Baseball Mogul and Front Office Football as a result of Metacrawler searches for career sims in baseball and football. I'd never heard of either. I downloaded the demos, checked out the feature lists, and purchased.

And the rest, as they say, is history...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cartman

And the rest, as they say, is history...

Ain't it the truth!

[Shaun Sullivan]

I was resisting but I thought I'd jump in here and provide some perspective from someone who worked directly with .400 (Joe in particular)

Joe treated me incredibly professionally and was a pleasure to work with for the short time that I did so. He and Arlie were very understanding with my situation and in fact, very supportive when I decided to leave.

I had many personal reasons for leaving .400: lifestyle, pressure, and primariliy a very demanding real job that at certain times completely consumes me to the point where PureSim has to be set aside. Thus, the potential existed that I may not be able to deliver an effort commensurate with my .400 contractual obligations. So I couldn't really continue and meet .400's expectations. I also signed on with .400 primarily because Joe was there, so the possibility of him leaving certainly played a part in my decision as well.

So we parted ways amicably and I am continuing with the game solo. Joe was even so gracious as to let me keep the graphics work he did, while asking for no royalties. Arlie also supported this as well. I'd like to thank Joe and .400 for that. So if you see Joe as some sort of back-stabbing money grubber I submit that as an example of the guy I know.

I did not leave .400 because I was treated poorly. Some of the folks on this thread seem to have a real axe to grind with these guys. Now, I don't know their full stories, but I can say in my case Joe Stallings was a pleasure to work with and I'd work with him again in the future if the situation were right. I didn't interact with Arlie as much, but whenever I did it was always positive and professional.

I have no idea what the reasons are behind Joe leaving .400 but the whole thing makes me sad. When I was with .400 it was very clear that Joe and Arlie had become really good friends and obviously enjoyed working together. Hopefully they will be friends moving forward.

I think those attacking Joe's character in a public forum should consider how hurtful it is, and how (unfortunately) a few bad words tend to damn peoples character pretty quickly in a forum like this.

We all share a passion for games in this genre, sports etc. I'm sure most of us would get along well in the "real" world, so I hate to see all this negativity. Joe is a nice guy and is likely pretty bummed about all this. Give him a break, I know I have made plenty of mistakes in life, and luckilily for me they are not detailed at FOFC. Remember there are 2 sides to every story.

I guess that was a ramble, I'll get off my soapbox now

Good luck Joe, with all your talent I'm sure we'll hear from you again. Good luck to Gary, Adam, Jim and all the developers at .400 who's efforts hopefully won't be tainted by all this.

Shaun Sullivan
PureSim Baseball

[Blackadar]

No axe to grind here, because I've loved the OOTP games I got from .400. But ever since the Jonah Falcon/.400 Studios/OOTP thing, I've always had a bit of a jaded eye when it comes to their products and business practices.

For those who don't know, the story is at the time Jonah Falcon was working as a reviewer for an online mag. He was a major fanboy of OOTP and got some insider looks and (Jonah himself said this) some decent gifts from .400. Then he turned around and did a review of the game - which just was about sickeningly lopsided in favor of OOTP. Without ever mentioning some of the particular issues with that release. It looked very bad at the very least as it appeared that .400 paid a fanboy to do an "independent" review.

Now whether Jonah acted independently to help some friends or was actually paid is not known.

But ever since then, I've been very wary of .400.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Shaun Sullivan

I think those attacking Joe's character in a public forum should consider how hurtful it is ...

I'm not sure there's anyone here who doesn't realize that but I'm not really sure that's exactly going to dissuade anyone from commenting either. We aren't exactly talking about the most beloved character in all of gaming here.

And as far as I can see, what's been said in this thread largely relates to things he brought upon himself, with his manner to a large
degree and perhaps his practices to a lesser degree.

Your experiences with him may have been good -- which is well & fine & I believe you're right to say so publically if you choose.

But everyone's experience & impression is clearly not the same.

In an industry where a good bit of the business relies on personal interactions with developers et al, it seems to me that it's only realistic to take the good with the bad.

Jon

[Shaun Sullivan]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Now whether Jonah acted independently to help some friends or was actually paid is not known.

That is precisely my point. People are posting stuff here and most of it is conjecture.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

No axe to grind here, because I've loved the OOTP games I got from .400. But ever since the Jonah Falcon/.400 Studios/OOTP thing, I've always had a bit of a jaded eye when it comes to their products and business practices.

For those who don't know, the story is at the time Jonah Falcon was working as a reviewer for an online mag. He was a major fanboy of OOTP and got some insider looks and (Jonah himself said this) some decent gifts from .400. Then he turned around and did a review of the game - which just was about sickeningly lopsided in favor of OOTP. Without ever mentioning some of the particular issues with that release. It looked very bad at the very least as it appeared that .400 paid a fanboy to do an "independent" review.

Now whether Jonah acted independently to help some friends or was actually paid is not known.

But ever since then, I've been very wary of .400.

Not Jonah Falcon the porn star turned game reviewer??? I remember this guy from usenet and for what it's worth no one took his reviews seriously so I don't think he got any money from Marcus. That's just the way this guy is. If he hates a game it's the worst ever and if he likes it it's the best ever.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Not Jonah Falcon the porn star turned game reviewer??? I remember this guy from usenet and for what it's worth no one took his reviews seriously so I don't think he got any money from Marcus. That's just the way this guy is. If he hates a game it's the worst ever and if he likes it it's the best ever.

Huh? Paying Jonah? LOL...

Axxon is right... the only thing he got back then, was an early beta copy to use for a preview... well, that actually turned into a review

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Huh? Paying Jonah? LOL...

Axxon is right... the only thing he got back then, was an early beta copy to use for a preview... well, that actually turned into a review

Jonah is a real piece of work. I guess since usenets demise people have forgotten the true Falcon. Anyway, glad you cleared up what most of us already knew.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Man, this thread is quickly turning into a who's who of sports text sims. I think we've had every single major game designer here sharing their views on the subject...

[hukarez]

Speaking of which (wig's prior posts just reminded me), Frank and Nancy are aiming for CCPB release just before the start of the next season. Well, it's at least a goal that's finally been set nonetheless.

[Antmeister]

Shaun, I really appreciate the post because it does shine a different light on this subject. However, I believe the reason why the speculation began was because he was terminated. Since this is not a positive term, people begin to wonder what led to this. It would not make any sense to get rid of an awesome interface designer unless .400 felt that he was negatively impacting the company. I will admit that I was one of the people speculating about your departure, but only because of the timing of everything. Druez's post started it all. And shortly after that a number of things occurred including Joe's termination. I apologize for lumping your departure as possibly one of the reasons for his termination, but I am just trying to make sense of it all, because all these stories are suddenly coming out and I don't understand why termination was sought if he did nothing negative.

[Ryan W.]

Originally Posted by Shaun Sullivan

I think those attacking Joe's character in a public forum should consider how hurtful it is, and how (unfortunately) a few bad words tend to damn peoples character pretty quickly in a forum like this.

Funny, I don't remember EVER getting an apology from Joe when I was thrown to the curb by .400. Markus, Andreas, Jim, Rick, Arlie, Gary, Scott, everyone else responded and said it was the wrong thing to happen. No one realized how hurt I was when it happened.

Listen, I know deep down Joe is a good guy. I have met him personally and I am sure he didn't mean for this to happen. But to not even get an email, IM or phone call from him after the PPH mess pissed me off greatly.

As I stated in my post at OOTPD, I didn't do this to damn anyone at .400. When I saw the message that Joe was no longer part of it, I decided it was time for the story to be told. Now it's done. I'm moving on with my life, as I have been for the past 10+ months since it happened.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Shaun Sullivan

I also signed on with .400 primarily because Joe was there, so the possibility of him leaving certainly played a part in my decision as well.



Shaun Sullivan
PureSim Baseball

So this means there was talk within .400, before Pure Sim left, of Joe leaving the company?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Sweed

So this means there was talk within .400, before Pure Sim left, of Joe leaving the company?

I'm surprised that you were the first person to point that out, at least within this thread.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Huh? Paying Jonah? LOL...

Axxon is right... the only thing he got back then, was an early beta copy to use for a preview... well, that actually turned into a review

Interesting. At one point, Jonah indicated that he received much more...what that may have been, I don't know. And the message board he posted it on is long gone.

The funny thing is that review almost prevented me from buying it on principal.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

That isn't always true. I bought both Baseball Mogul and Front Office Football as a result of Metacrawler searches

So, it would be fair to say that after the searches you had heard of the games?

My point was that it is virtually impossible to buy a game you are not aware exists. Your searches made you aware those products existed. Being reviewed (good or bad) makes people aware whether they are looking are not.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

Man, this thread is quickly turning into a who's who of sports text sims. I think we've had every single major game designer here sharing their views on the subject...

Anyone have Dave Dial's take on .400?

[Angie]

Unfortunately, there are certain individuals with a vested interest in seeing Joe discredited and slandered in the gaming community and in the public.

Joe has decided not to comment at this time, but I imagine that he will eventually share his story. FWIW, my services were "terminated" too.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Angie

Joe has decided not to comment at this time, but I imagine that he will eventually share his story.

This may be self-evident, but then again, maybe not.

It's not in anyone's best interest to drag their personal/professional problems out on a message board. It just makes all of you look immature and foolish. It's pretty hard to take some of these 'companies' seriously anymore.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Huh? Paying Jonah? LOL...

You sent him bratwurst, ADMIT IT!!!

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chubby

You sent him bratwurst, ADMIT IT!!!

From what I've heard Jonah doesn't need a bratwurst.

[Cringer]

Is this a script for a new daytime soap-opera?

"General Programmers"
"The Days of Our Sports Sims"
"As The Release Date Nears"

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

It just makes all of you look immature and foolish. It's pretty hard to take some of these 'companies' seriously anymore.

This is pretty much an impression I have gotten. But then again, I think it looks kind of foolish because these comapnies what to be taken seriously. I know it's good to be professional and all, but you make text sims. You make a product that exists in a small, niche market. Maybe the problem is these companies take themselves too seriously. Just make your text sims and have fun doing it. No need to be all "businessy". (I think I invented a word there. )

[Buddy Grant]

Originally Posted by Axxon

From what I've heard Jonah doesn't need a bratwurst.

Classic!

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Buddy Grant

Classic!

I'm glad someone gets it.

[MizzouRah]

If you still read the sport games newsgroup, Jonah is still spouting things like, "ootp6 has been released! it rules!!", then three hours later... "game killing bug found!".

He pretty much gets ridiculed on a daily basis.

Joe has decided not to comment at this time, but I imagine that he will eventually share his story. FWIW, my services were "terminated" too.

That's the part I need to keep tucked away in the back of my mind. All this about evil Joe and nobody's heard what he has to say.


Todd

[druez]

Originally Posted by sabotai

This is pretty much an impression I have gotten. But then again, I think it looks kind of foolish because these comapnies what to be taken seriously. I know it's good to be professional and all, but you make text sims. You make a product that exists in a small, niche market. Maybe the problem is these companies take themselves too seriously. Just make your text sims and have fun doing it. No need to be all "businessy". (I think I invented a word there. )

Excellent point. Reviewing / testing becoming friends with the people in the community and who make the games was my biggest problem. When you review MS Games, or Sega, EA etc... You aren't involved with the people.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Axxon

I'm glad someone gets it.

Just got back from a gut-wrenching situation (more in a few minutes about that), but FYI, I got it too.

All:

I've heard a lot of stuff privately from a number of different perspectives on all of this. Quite frankly, I've heard more than I care to know. We all can and will form our impressions of what the truth is, but the reality is that no one except the principles involved *really* know the truth. Further, unless we were there, we have no concrete way of knowing whether anything that has been posted in this thread is the truth. (Example from this very post: it *could* be a 100% lie that "I've heard a lot of stuff privately", but most of you probably chose to believe that statement without a shred of evidence.)

I have no desire whatsoever to rehash everything I've heard, and would be probably breaking confidences if I did so, but suffice it to say that I am not 100% sure what to believe about it all. I think that partly because Joe has chosen to remain silent publicly, people have assumed that to be an admission of guilt. I'm here neither to defend Joe, nor to pile on, because I have no way of knowing what the truth really is.

As with the original Joe/druez public fallout thread, I really feel confused about what to do. On the one hand, y'all know that my style is to let most stuff slide by. However, something doesn't sit right with me about a thread that seems to be mainly piling on one person who has clearly chosen, for whatever reasons, not to defend himself. I fully acknowledge that this could be another "when you call the tune, you have to pay the piper" situation--meaning that if Joe is guilty as charged, then he brought all of this on himself and deserves to get slammed like this. However, in the other "Rowdy Roddy Piper" moments that I've allowed to go on, there was clear evidence that the person deserved what they were getting (usually the troll o' the month getting his comeuppance).

When both Jason and Joe chose to have their fight publicly, I allowed it to go on: they had both "called the tune," and deserved whatever derision they earned for taking a private disagreement into a "public" arena. However, at the point where Joe made it clear to me that he was not going to post in that thread any more, I allowed Jason and he to say their final pieces, then closed the thread. I've decided not to close this thread, as the piling on has basically stopped, but I AM asking everyone (and developers, this includes y'all too) to refrain from further "personal" negative comments about anyone. Thanks in advance.

I hope this all makes sense. Quite frankly, this fight isn't really near the top of my list right now because of other real-life stuff going on (and yes, I understand that for Joe, Arlie, Angie, Farrah, and the other developers involved, this IS their livelihood), but I felt a responsibility to say what I've said.

--Ben

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Is this a script for a new daytime soap-opera?

"General Programmers"
"The Days of Our Sports Sims"
"As The Release Date Nears"

::fires up Hollywood Mogul::

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

... but I AM asking everyone (and developers, this includes y'all too) to refrain from further "personal" negative comments about anyone. Thanks in advance.

Respectfully (and you know I wouldn't choose that particular word if I didn't mean it) ... I'm not so sure that's something that's easy to comply with (at least, if there's a discussion at all). Since that probably doesn't make a lot of sense without some explanation, let me try to briefly hit what I'm getting at here.

As I alluded to earlier, I believe much of the apparent, shall we say "negative feelings" about Joe are based on things that are "personal".
Or maybe "personality" is a better word. I don't think that even he himself would argue that there weren't times that he rubbed some people the wrong way. And every one of those instances I'm thinking of were conducted in public, I'm not referring to a single thing that went on privately or "behind the scenes" anywhere. Honestly, I think that's a big part of the reason this has been so interesting -- for lack of a better phrase "it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy" probably went through quite a few heads around here (and elsewhere).

My point isn't to "sit here & bash Joe again" -- it's that it seems rather hard to discuss the situation without a certain amount of "personal" commentary coming into play, since that plays a role in a lot of our game purchase decisions in this genre

I mean, think about it, how many times have phrases like "XYZ seems like a good guy, I'm gonna support his work" or "ZYX rubs me the wrong way, I'll spend my money elsewhere" been a part of discussions about various games/developers/companies? IMO, that's an important element for just about all of the indy developers at least.

And, while it may be fairly rough in places, if FOFC is a place where we discuss not only the game(s) but the genre & the industry, I don't see that there's any way to rightfully declare this limited beyond the rules that apply to any other subject.

.400 Software is a part of the genre --> that makes them topical --> and Joe is/was a part of .400, and an extremely public part of it to boot -->
as far as I'm concerned, that makes him fair game too --> And if his demeanor played a role, then that's a valid part of any discussion on the subject.

Now Ben, I started this post with the word "respectfully" & I meant it.
If you, remain intent on curbing the discussion then I'll honor that.

And FTR, I chose to post this bit of commentary publically rather than privately because I felt strongly that there was some value in having the point I'm seeing here viewed by more than just a couple of sets of eyes, maybe I'm the only person who sees things from this angle & the only way I'll know about that is to run it up the flagpole a bit.

Thanks,
Jon