The Thread for Bitching About Soccer or Arguing Against Bitching About Soccer

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by Marmel

It just isn't

oh ok

[tyketime]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Actually, I have to admit there is one reason I would want to get into soccer.

FM

I hear that shit is dope.

Actually CM back in the day when I started playing. And my appreciation for soccer grew out of playing that game.

[tyketime]

Originally Posted by molson

I do wish I was more into soccer because I love the structure and format of the whole soccer world. One set of rules, universally applied across hundreds of leagues at verious levels throughout the world, and all of those leagues kind of make up one, greater, global league. Teams, (I'm sorry, "clubs") from one league going to a tournament to play against clubs from other leagues - great stuff.

One of the only sports that crowns a true World Champion.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by tyketime

One of the only sports that crowns a true World Champion.

Hey, don't forget about the World Baseball Classic!

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Marmel

It also drives me a little crazy how soccer fans seem to NEED the sport to become successful in the USA.

I do agree with this point. I love American football, but I don't particularly care if it catches on over in Europe or elsewhere. I'm content to just enjoy it for myself, and if they're missing out, that's their loss.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I do agree with this point. I love American football, but I don't particularly care if it catches on over in Europe or elsewhere. I'm content to just enjoy it for myself, and if they're missing out, that's their loss.

I understand this, and alluded to it early in the thread, but its not quite equitable.

For a vested soccer fan in the US, if the sport grows in popularity there were be tangible benefits for the fan. An exciting domestic league, perhaps better players in the national team. That's missing in the comparison to you and German football fan. I imagine the German soccer fan feels the same way about soccer in America that you do about football over there.

[Sun Tzu]

I wonder if american soccer fans would become bitter if the game suddenly grew wildly popular over here, and everyone they knew was a "huge" soccer fan. Don't you kind of like being "the guy who likes soccer" instead? It's like when you love a band, or a song, and then a year later they hit it big and everyone you knew who could have cared less about them suddenly is bumping them in their car stereo everywhere they go. Maybe I'm crazy.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I wonder if american soccer fans would become bitter if the game suddenly grew wildly popular over here, and everyone they knew was a "huge" soccer fan. Don't you kind of like being "the guy who likes soccer" instead? It's like when you love a band, or a song, and then a year later they hit it big and everyone you knew who could have cared less about them suddenly is bumping them in their car stereo everywhere they go. Maybe I'm crazy.

They'll move on to rugby. And then cricket.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Bzzt. I didn't even mention anything about relative difficulty, I described what it looked like.

"Appearing inept" not only describes what it looks like, but also implies something about relative difficulty. :shrug:

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

This is bogus. Soccer is probably the only sport that professional sportswriters professionally deride constantly. I can probably dig up 50 articles since June 1 printed in newspapers that have the equivalent of 'The World Cup is here, Who Cares?' type headlines. Or 'Rule changes that would make soccer interesting'

The sport is constantly ripped by the old guard in sports writing, and there are clearly many average Americans who fall in line with this kind of thinking.

There is literally a real media bias against the sport in this country. We aren't delusional. The degree of bias, and the amount of these absurd articles, may be shrinking over time, but it's still pretty prevalent.

Bingo. One of the reasons for possible overreaction by soccer fans is the level of hate from old guard sportswriters is absolutely ridiculous. Of course, I realize that the overreactions spur more hate and around and around we go, but that's part of the reason.

Also another, valid, reason while soccer fans want soccer to be accepted is the quite simple reason that then soccer fans will be able to watch more soccer.... especially in High Definition. For years soccer fans could barely watch the sport (except for World Cup games and a handful of MLS matches) due to the high levels of apathy/hatred for the game.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Autumn

They'll move on to rugby. And then cricket.

Two sports I already watch..

Plus probably Aussie Rules.

[MJ4H]

Rugby and Aussie Rules are awesome. I have no idea what the hell is going on in Cricket but I'm sure I would like it if I did. I'll watch almost any damn thing, honestly. Ragging on a sport about how it sucks or is boring is just a really strange thing to do, to me. But whatever.

[SirFozzie]

Someone said this World Cup is pivotal to soccer making it in the US.

Honestly, the more I think about it, it already is.

We have three networks airing soccer in the US, in English already (ESPN/ESPN2 family, Fox Soccer/Fox Soccer+, GolTV). We have just about every major league being covered. (the only two "major leagues" that aren't on the above, or ESPN3.com are France and Scotland, and Scotland's because the supporters groups for the Old Firm here in the states make so much money off bar subscriptions for games that they literally threatened Setanta with a boycott should they move the games to live).

This season, you will be able to see all 360 English Premier League games, either live, or delayed (when multiple matches are playing at one time). You'll be able to see a good chunk of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A.. if you want to see the Dutch league, Portugese League, or more of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, etcetera, ESPN3.com will be airing 800+ games this season).

Compare and contrast 10/20 years ago. There was no US league. You actually had to tune into PBS to get one German game every few weeks. ABC Wide World of Sports showed maybe the FA Cup final, or parts of it).

Haters gonna hate.. and not much you can do to change their minds. That's the thing, recognize who's willing to come around and take a look, and who you can't talk to. Otherwise, enjoy the unprecedented access to the Beautiful Game, available in the US.

[Icy]

I think most of USA soccer haters are talking from their ignorance of the sport and just thinking on the topics.

Sun T, i couldn't avoid to smile when i thought what would happen if i show what you said about baseball players being somewhat gifted to any guy in Spain, they would say:

"What? is there any skill on those fat guys full of steroids wearing a pajama and hitting a ball with an stick and then slowly walking around a diamond? how is that even called sport? and how can they say that soccer is slow?"

Of course that would be said based on the topics and ignorance of the sport, same applies to most of USA soccer haters.

Note that i'm a huge USA sports fan, specially football both at college and pro levels and baseball, and took my time to study the rules, strategies and that enjoy discussing with other fans in forums, but i'm in the minority in my country, in fact i can't talk about baseball or football with anybody besides online.

[ISiddiqui]

The thing that amuses me (and I'm a HUGE baseball fan, let me say at the onset) is that the same people that decry baseball for being too boring in the context of US sports will defend it to the death against soccer (not saying anyone here).

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

This season, you will be able to see all 360 English Premier League games, either live, or delayed (when multiple matches are playing at one time). You'll be able to see a good chunk of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A.. if you want to see the Dutch league, Portugese League, or more of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, etcetera, ESPN3.com will be airing 800+ games this season).

That is much, much more soccer than you can watch in the UK, even if you buy all the tv packages.

[sabotai]

Soccer is pretty damn boring, but if I had to watch either baseball or soccer all day, I'd choose soccer easily. I'd easily pick soccer over basketball too. But all three are pretty boring to me.

[MJ4H]

I remember very clearly wanting to watch the 1990 World Cup and there being literally no option to do so at the time.

[SirFozzie]

I think TNT had the rights, and showed like 8-10 games.. I'll have to confirm that.

edit: Actually, 24 matches.

if you want to see how far the sport has come here in the US in 20 years...

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...0&slug=1076279

[molson]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Someone said this World Cup is pivotal to soccer making it in the US.

Honestly, the more I think about it, it already is.

We have three networks airing soccer in the US, in English already (ESPN/ESPN2 family, Fox Soccer/Fox Soccer+, GolTV). We have just about every major league being covered. (the only two "major leagues" that aren't on the above, or ESPN3.com are France and Scotland, and Scotland's because the supporters groups for the Old Firm here in the states make so much money off bar subscriptions for games that they literally threatened Setanta with a boycott should they move the games to live).

This season, you will be able to see all 360 English Premier League games, either live, or delayed (when multiple matches are playing at one time). You'll be able to see a good chunk of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A.. if you want to see the Dutch league, Portugese League, or more of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, etcetera, ESPN3.com will be airing 800+ games this season).

Compare and contrast 10/20 years ago. There was no US league. You actually had to tune into PBS to get one German game every few weeks. ABC Wide World of Sports showed maybe the FA Cup final, or parts of it).

Haters gonna hate.. and not much you can do to change their minds. That's the thing, recognize who's willing to come around and take a look, and who you can't talk to. Otherwise, enjoy the unprecedented access to the Beautiful Game, available in the US.

And soccer matches do very well attendence-wise in the U.S now. Both MLS (Seattle is averaging something like 36k/game) and interntional exhibition games.

It's arguably already more popular than Ice Hockey and NASCAR here, I think it's a pretty solid #4 sport. And basketball is vulnerable at #3.

[Autumn]

I must be in the wrong town if soccer is more popular than NASCAR in the US.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Someone said this World Cup is pivotal to soccer making it in the US.

Honestly, the more I think about it, it already is.

We have three networks airing soccer in the US, in English already (ESPN/ESPN2 family, Fox Soccer/Fox Soccer+, GolTV). We have just about every major league being covered. (the only two "major leagues" that aren't on the above, or ESPN3.com are France and Scotland, and Scotland's because the supporters groups for the Old Firm here in the states make so much money off bar subscriptions for games that they literally threatened Setanta with a boycott should they move the games to live).

This season, you will be able to see all 360 English Premier League games, either live, or delayed (when multiple matches are playing at one time). You'll be able to see a good chunk of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A.. if you want to see the Dutch league, Portugese League, or more of the Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, etcetera, ESPN3.com will be airing 800+ games this season).

Compare and contrast 10/20 years ago. There was no US league. You actually had to tune into PBS to get one German game every few weeks. ABC Wide World of Sports showed maybe the FA Cup final, or parts of it).

Haters gonna hate.. and not much you can do to change their minds. That's the thing, recognize who's willing to come around and take a look, and who you can't talk to. Otherwise, enjoy the unprecedented access to the Beautiful Game, available in the US.

I dream about the same with the NFL, MLB and NHL in Spain. Here we only have an expensive USA sports satellite channel that airs 4 NFL games per week (3 live), 7 NBA live games per week, and some random MLB and NHL offline games per week.

Luckily there legal and illegal live internet streams now and everything is available for the "weird" guys like me.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I must be in the wrong town if soccer is more popular than NASCAR in the US.

You might indeed be in the wrong town. It's tough to measure, because NASCAR is incredibly regional in its popularity. It's probably the 15th most popular sport in Massachusetts.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Icy

I think most of USA soccer haters are talking from their ignorance of the sport and just thinking on the topics.

Sun T, i couldn't avoid to smile when i thought what would happen if i show what you said about baseball players being somewhat gifted to any guy in Spain, they would say:

"What? is there any skill on those fat guys full of steroids wearing a pajama and hitting a ball with an stick and then slowly walking around a diamond? how is that even called sport? and how can they say that soccer is slow?"

Of course that would be said based on the topics and ignorance of the sport, same applies to most of USA soccer haters.

Note that i'm a huge USA sports fan, specially football both at college and pro levels and baseball, and took my time to study the rules, strategies and that enjoy discussing with other fans in forums, but i'm in the minority in my country, in fact i can't talk about baseball or football with anybody besides online.

May John Kruk live forever...

[Calis]

I personally love soccer. Sure I sometime find the games boring, but no more often than any other sport. I was also one of the oddballs who fell in love via Championship Manager, specifically the 97/98 version which I spent countless hours playing.

The thing that hooked me watching was I first binged on it, watching everything I could find. The interest to me was how vastly different the game was played..one day watching La Liga, then an EPL game, maybe a Serie A match, and maybe a match fromt Argentina or Brazil, and how these styles reflect the nations as a whole. The globalness of the game I guess interests me.

I fully understand people hating it. If I had to point out reasons not already mentioned maybe I'd add the lack of meaningful stats and the fact superstars don't function quite like they do in Baseball or Basketball for instance.

[Pumpy Tudors]

How come none of you assholes made a thread like this about arena football?

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Maybe you actually have to play soccer at a competitive level to understand, but its really difficult to hit pin point passes at a distance, especially when another player is barreling down on you.

Barreling down at you?? So what...it's not like he can hit you. All he can do is "try" to take the ball away from you because if he hits you he gets a card flashed at him.

All that fancy footwork Icy linked...sure, it's pretty, but anybody can do that if you aren't concerned about getting your block knocked off. Try doing that on skates with a stick and puck while you have several guys itching to smash you through the boards or receiving a punt with several guys running as fast as they can with the intention of hitting you so hard that you don't get up. All that fancy footwork wouldn't get you much except a ride to the hospital.

There was also a comment earlier, excuse me while I paraphrase, "it make look like nothing is happening but one team is trying to lull the other team to sleep in hopes that they make a mistake"...how the hell is that the basis for a spectator sport?

[Pumpy Tudors]

VIOLENCE FUCK YEAH

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Barreling down at you?? So what...it's not like he can hit you. All he can do is "try" to take the ball away from you because if he hits you he gets a card flashed at him.

No, football is not a non-contact sport, contrary to popular misconception. If the ball is being played, incidental contact is not a foul.

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

All that fancy footwork Icy linked...sure, it's pretty, but anybody can do that if you aren't concerned about getting your block knocked off. Try doing that on skates with a stick and puck while you have several guys itching to smash you through the boards or receiving a punt with several guys running as fast as they can with the intention of hitting you so hard that you don't get up. All that fancy footwork wouldn't get you much except a ride to the hospital.

The bold is extremely lol and the rest is built off of the misconception you have in the first part.

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

There was also a comment earlier, excuse me while I paraphrase, "it make look like nothing is happening but one team is trying to lull the other team to sleep in hopes that they make a mistake"...how the hell is that the basis for a spectator sport?

Well, the comment isn't a basis for a spectator sport, so I don't know why you are asking the question.

[bhlloy]

Remember, you are talking to a guy who beat the crap out of Marc Savard

[johnnyshaka]

Mj4h...incidental contact?? Is that like getting a shoulder in the chest or helmet to the ribs while you do a jig around the ball trying to razzle dazzle your opponent? Or are you talking about when the defender, in an attempt to put an end to all fancy footwork steps on the other guys foot only to see him go down like he has been but Scott Stevens, Ray Lewis, and Ronnie Lott at the same time?

Spend an hour in your backyard with a soccer ball and you'd be surprised and what you can do by the time you've bored yourself.

Like I said in my post, the gist of a comment earlier in the thread made the argument that while nothing appears to be going on (constant passing back and forth, etc.) The intention is to put the opponent to sleep thus forcing to make mistakes...am I way off base here? If not, does that sound all that appealing do would be fans...bore the other guys too sleep with boring play?

Bhlloy...never happened but that doesn't mean he didn't deserve it on more than one occasion.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Mj4h...incidental contact?? Is that like getting a shoulder in the chest or helmet to the ribs while you do a jig around the ball trying to razzle dazzle your opponent? Or are you talking about when the defender, in an attempt to put an end to all fancy footwork steps on the other guys foot only to see him go down like he has been but Scott Stevens, Ray Lewis, and Ronnie Lott at the same time?

Spend an hour in your backyard with a soccer ball and you'd be surprised and what you can do by the time you've bored yourself.

Like I said in my post, the gist of a comment earlier in the thread made the argument that while nothing appears to be going on (constant passing back and forth, etc.) The intention is to put the opponent to sleep thus forcing to make mistakes...am I way off base here? If not, does that sound all that appealing do would be fans...bore the other guys too sleep with boring play?

Bhlloy...never happened but that doesn't mean he didn't deserve it on more than one occasion.

No I mean when players collide going for the ball. And, I've played soccer most of my life. I don't think a few hours in my backyard are going to lend any surprises for me.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

No I mean when players collide going for the ball. And, I've played soccer most of my life. I don't think a few hours in my backyard are going to lend any surprises for me.

So why don't we see more players laid out with big hits "just going for the ball" not get carded? If it's legit, why bother watching the ball at all and knock the guy off the ball using your body?

So you've played soccer for most of your life and you can't do any of that fancy footwork? I find that hard to believe as I've seen plenty of guys do a lot of that stuff at the playground down the street from my house.

[Mac Howard]

I wish you guys hadn't started this thread guys. I came to the forum to look at the World Cup thread and saw this. That was about an hour ago. I've read every post and sat there mentally answering every one. I could continue now for the next 12 hours and not even begin to cover everything I'd need to say. But I've work to do and so try to be very brief.

To most of the critical posts my response is along the lines of "you don't understand the game". If it were boring, guys, it wouldn't be the most popular game in the world. If great skills were not involved we wouldn't have about 20 levels of the game in the UK with an almost linear degradation of skills as you move down the leagues. If significant parts of the game were irrelevant to the outcome then the 5-a-side, 15 minute each way game would be far more popular (same skills, more goals, less "boredom") but it's a game played by old farts like me that couldn't run the length of a football pitch these days without suffering a heart attack.

I'm a great fan of all football games. Although I played and watched soccer (I have no objections at all to that term) all my lfe, as a kid I lived a quarter of a mile from the Rochdale Hornets Rugby League club and was a big fan of the game. Five nations Rugby Union games are televised every year in the UK and I used to watch those religiously and now it's the All Blacks, Wallabies and Springboks here in Australia. I've also become an Aussie Rules fan since moving to the southern hemisphere. And during the 80s and 90s when Channel Four in the UK played NFL games each week I became an American Football fan.

It seems to me that all these games are a mix, but different mix, of physicality and skill. In my experience soccer is the one that has the greatest bias toward skill - essentially because controlling a ball with your feet is much less natural than with your hands and because the moment you can grab hold a player with your hands his skill is neutralised. Isn't that why in gridiron and rugby league the game stops there and play resets? In Rugby Union and Aussie Rules, where the tackled player simply has to release the ball, the scrappiest part of any football game follows. And because the game is so free-flowing and players find themselves so often in unfamiliar circumstances then players have to rely much more on instinctive improvisation to succeed.

I'm not saying that because the bias is towards skill - many fans prefer the physical contact - that the game is "better" than the others, merely that it is more skilfull (that I suspect will not go unchallenged )

I'm coming to believe however that soccer is resting too much on its laurels now and significant rule changes need to be made. The play-acting is a disgrace, too many bad decisions by officials are destroying the integrity of the game and the much greater physicality of modern players is allowing tactics destructive to the flow of the game to become too effective. This World Cup I think has been a poor one as a result and should not be seen as the game at its best. The club game today, and particularly the Champions League, is now where top quality is to be found. So, unless you're watching that, you're not seeing the game at its very best.

[Calis]

Why do these arguments come down to contact? I don't understand. Should baseball players be looked down upon because they aren't being blindsided by Ray Lewis when catching a fly ball? Should free throws involve a Mississippi count and then the shooter is open game?

Not all sports are about big hits, but having personally made some late in life attempts to play soccer I can say for certain it is a contact sport.

[tarcone]

Aussie Rules Football is a great game to watch. I watch it whenever I can find it.

[JediKooter]

Since the games or so long with no scoring, maybe every 20 minutes if no goals have been scored, each side gets a couple of penalty kicks. If no one scores then, play another 20 minutes, 2 more penalty kicks and so on...

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Since the games or so long with no scoring, maybe every 20 minutes if no goals have been scored, each side gets a couple of penalty kicks. If no one scores then, play another 20 minutes, 2 more penalty kicks and so on...

Baseball games can be much, much longer with no scoring.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

So why don't we see more players laid out with big hits "just going for the ball" not get carded? If it's legit, why bother watching the ball at all and knock the guy off the ball using your body?

So you've played soccer for most of your life and you can't do any of that fancy footwork? I find that hard to believe as I've seen plenty of guys do a lot of that stuff at the playground down the street from my house.

Why don't we see more? How much do you see? I see plenty.

Of course I can do stupid juggling tricks the guys down the road from you can do. That is not what is in those videos. Those are making world class defenders look silly. And if you think the guys down the block from you can dribble pass and shoot like these guys you are patently insane.

[illinifan999]

Just because the And1 guys can do ridiculous dribbles and shit doesn't mean they'll work in the NBA.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Baseball games can be much, much longer with no scoring.

They can be, but, it's a different method of scoring though. You can have a pitcher going for a no hitter and that makes it exciting. A scoreless soccer game is a bit different because they are so common. I actually like the corner kicks and the penalty kicks in soccer. Those are fun to watch.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

They can be, but, it's a different method of scoring though. You can have a pitcher going for a no hitter and that makes it exciting. A scoreless soccer game is a bit different because they are so common. I actually like the corner kicks and the penalty kicks in soccer. Those are fun to watch.

But you can also have a long scoreless game without the pitcher going for a no hitter. As such, starting each inning with a guy on 2nd would make it a lot more exciting.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

But you can also have a long scoreless game without the pitcher going for a no hitter. As such, starting each inning with a guy on 2nd would make it a lot more exciting.

International tie breaker rules! It definitely would add excitement to it.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

They can be, but, it's a different method of scoring though. You can have a pitcher going for a no hitter and that makes it exciting. A scoreless soccer game is a bit different because they are so common. I actually like the corner kicks and the penalty kicks in soccer. Those are fun to watch.

That's because, JediKooter, you have a subtle understanding of baseball but not soccer. In soccer you're like a novice Chess player who only sees one or two moves in advance unlike the expert who sees ten moves in advance. When you fully understand the game then you get the same response to yours to a cornerkick etc even as a team moves into the opposition's half because you can visualise the possible consequences. If I'm emotionally involved in a game the anticipation/anxiety starts to kick in as my team/opposition takes up the ball and starts to move forward. The emotion builds until, in the case of a goal or near-goal, it explodes in elation or depression.

It's about the ability to anticipate action early in the piece which only comes from experience of the game.

[Buccaneer]

it wouldn't be the most popular game in the world.

Mac, could the "popularity" be because in many countries, it is the only sport that be afforded to play by the masses and the rules are very simple? I think part of the bias of many US sports fans toward soccer is simply that we have evolved our sports and leagues into something bigger, more elaborate and more complex; as well as more wealthier.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I wonder if american soccer fans would become bitter if the game suddenly grew wildly popular over here, and everyone they knew was a "huge" soccer fan. Don't you kind of like being "the guy who likes soccer" instead? It's like when you love a band, or a song, and then a year later they hit it big and everyone you knew who could have cared less about them suddenly is bumping them in their car stereo everywhere they go. Maybe I'm crazy.

I know I personally don't feel that way. I was literally asked this question by an acquaintance at a BBQ this weekend "So, are you annoyed that all the bandwagon fans are watching soccer in the World Cup right now?" I dismissed it as absurd. I really want more people watching and going to league games. At the very least i'd like to not be literally laughed at when mentioning im a New York Red Bulls season ticket holder.

But someone in this thread hit the nail on the head (Fozzie probably)... not only do most of us want the sport to become popular, but we can actually tangibly benefit from it. David Beckham plays his league soccer here. Thierry Henry is about to announce he's signing with the Red Bulls (5 days from now, by all accounts).

These things were unbelievable unimaginable 10 years ago, maybe even 5 years ago. Now almost every MLS team is playing in their own brand-new stadium. The odds of us hosting the 2022 World Cup are gigantic. TV ratings are at an all-time high.

Still, our domestic league is the equivalent of a AA baseball league right now. That's not to slight it, I'm a season ticket holder and a massive fan. The league is just operating on a shoestring budget and has spent it's first 15 years carving out an existence.

Many of us dream of the day when teams are playing to 40,000+ sellout crowds week in/week out and are right in the discussion of leagues like England, Spain, or Italy as among the best in the world. I look forward to a day when an in-his-prime free agent is seriously considering an offer from the New York Red Bulls. When someone is thinking about coming here at age 26, rather than 32.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Mac, could the "popularity" be because in many countries, it is the only sport that be afforded to play by the masses and the rules are very simple? I think part of the bias of many US sports fans toward soccer is simply that we have evolved our sports and leagues into something bigger, more elaborate and more complex; as well as more wealthier.

I think there are a number of things that contribute to the popularity and the fact that you can play the game with as little as a rolled up rag and that anyone not in a wheelchair can play the game are significant. But the point I'm making there is that if it were genuinely boring it wouldn't be popular no matter what other attributes it had.

As for "more elaborate, complex, wealthier". Don't be fooled by the apparent simplicity of the game. It is a highly technical, tactical game amplified by the fact it's played by many cultures all of whom inevitably bring their own styles to the game.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Mac, could the "popularity" be because in many countries, it is the only sport that be afforded to play by the masses and the rules are very simple? I think part of the bias of many US sports fans toward soccer is simply that we have evolved our sports and leagues into something bigger, more elaborate and more complex; as well as more wealthier.

I'm sure that's a factor in some parts of the world, but I don't think does much to explain why it's wildly popular in Europe. Last I checked they're doing pretty good over there.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'm sure that's a factor in some parts of the world, but I don't think does much to explain why it's wildly popular in Europe. Last I checked they're doing pretty good over there.

Well, actually they're not but Man Utd is apparently worth $1.5 bn so it's not all paupers that play it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

I wish you guys hadn't started this thread guys. I came to the forum to look at the World Cup thread and saw this. That was about an hour ago. I've read every post and sat there mentally answering every one. I could continue now for the next 12 hours and not even begin to cover everything I'd need to say. But I've work to do and so try to be very brief.

To most of the critical posts my response is along the lines of "you don't understand the game". If it were boring, guys, it wouldn't be the most popular game in the world. If great skills were not involved we wouldn't have about 20 levels of the game in the UK with an almost linear degradation of skills as you move down the leagues. If significant parts of the game were irrelevant to the outcome then the 5-a-side, 15 minute each way game would be far more popular (same skills, more goals, less "boredom") but it's a game played by old farts like me that couldn't run the length of a football pitch these days without suffering a heart attack.

I'm a great fan of all football games. Although I played and watched soccer (I have no objections at all to that term) all my lfe, as a kid I lived a quarter of a mile from the Rochdale Hornets Rugby League club and was a big fan of the game. Five nations Rugby Union games are televised every year in the UK and I used to watch those religiously and now it's the All Blacks, Wallabies and Springboks here in Australia. I've also become an Aussie Rules fan since moving to the southern hemisphere. And during the 80s and 90s when Channel Four in the UK played NFL games each week I became an American Football fan.

It seems to me that all these games are a mix, but different mix, of physicality and skill. In my experience soccer is the one that has the greatest bias toward skill - essentially because controlling a ball with your feet is much less natural than with your hands and because the moment you can grab hold a player with your hands his skill is neutralised. Isn't that why in gridiron and rugby league the game stops there and play resets? In Rugby Union and Aussie Rules, where the tackled player simply has to release the ball, the scrappiest part of any football game follows. And because the game is so free-flowing and players find themselves so often in unfamiliar circumstances then players have to rely much more on instinctive improvisation to succeed.

I'm not saying that because the bias is towards skill - many fans prefer the physical contact - that the game is "better" than the others, merely that it is more skilfull (that I suspect will not go unchallenged )

I'm coming to believe however that soccer is resting too much on its laurels now and significant rule changes need to be made. The play-acting is a disgrace, too many bad decisions by officials are destroying the integrity of the game and the much greater physicality of modern players is allowing tactics destructive to the flow of the game to become too effective. This World Cup I think has been a poor one as a result and should not be seen as the game at its best. The club game today, and particularly the Champions League, is now where top quality is to be found. So, unless you're watching that, you're not seeing the game at its very best.

I have no doubt that soccer is a complex, intricate game. But surely it must be accessible to non-experts. It's the world's sport. The masses, internationally, who must include some non-experts, love it too. So I don't think the relative American dislike of the game can be summed up simply as "ignorance". (And I say relative because soccer popularity in the U.S. has grown a ton recently, and it's going to continue to grow - I believe it's the #1 participation sport for kids right now). We do have far more competition for any kind of sport/entertainment here.