Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Doesn't have to be foreign. Just take the pictures of the missile/rocket wreckage, there has to be some right?

I mean there's a dozen or so videos floating around online that show it resembling what a JDAM looks and sounds like.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

You believe every dodgy pro-Hamas account and come at me hot? I at least say there is a question, but you have all the answers straight from Hamas PR reps mouth. Again, that warning wasn't singling out that hospital. It was for all the hospitals in the region along with all civilians. Why would you warn a target you are going to hit it? How does that even make sense? How will hiting a hospital even help their war goals? The only people that has benefit from this attack is Hamas. While no one has even suggested this was a purposeful false flag attack, it would seem they had way more to gain. And the supposed quote from Netanyahu's advisor is questionable as well. Then there is the supposed quote from Al-Jezeera that I have seen several people forward, but notice none of them provide a link to a source. Looked all over Al_Jezeera for it. Nada.
I will admit Israel sends out false information and propaganda on a regular basis. There is no way I am ready to claim this was are wasn't Israel. Are you willing to do the same? Of course not.

The country that has routinely targeted hospitals (including this very one 2 days earlier), told the hospital (and 5 others) they were going to bomb it, and then bragged about bombing it, might have had something to do with it. Just a hunch.

The Naftali tweet is not a "supposed quote". He said it and admits it. I don't know why you're rushing to defend this as fake when everyone involved admits he said it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I mean there's a dozen or so videos floating around online that show it resembling what a JDAM looks and sounds like.

I can’t see in the dark.

I’m sure pics was taken of the wreckage. Show them.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I can’t see in the dark.

I’m sure pics was taken of the wreckage. Show them.

I'm sure the people with no electricity or internet might struggle with your request.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm sure the people with no electricity or internet might struggle with your request.

No idea.

I'm sure it'll come out eventually. I'll wait for corroborating evidence either way.

[GrantDawg]

Picture and videos out now show that it was not the building that was struck. It was mostly a car park and open area outside the hospital. Most of the damage seems to be from flames, which would not be the case from a high-explosive. No catering which would indicate something like a JDAM which is used to damage structures or destroy bunkers. If not rocket fuel burn, it would have to be a firebomb.

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[Edward64]

The recording is compelling, but obviously with technology nowadays, perfectly understandable if people do not accept it. It would be better if they did not block out the names and identified them but that is also understandable. The audio also talks about the wreckage being "local" and not Israeli ...

https://videoidf.azureedge.net/e67ae...5-d32da01ccf80

Pic of damage area. I think IDF said there were 3 areas damaged but this was the only one I saw. I'd like to see a "crater" if there is one, should be easy for Hamas to produce it.


https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/sta...342530/photo/1

Walkthrough of the site

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...35687070916987


Good thing for daylight. We can see better now and not just rely on dark videos and sounds of what supposedly JDAM sounds like.

[GrantDawg]

This the other craters a good ways from the explosion site. There had been some hits around the site earlier so they might not have even come from this one.



[CrimsonFox]

This just in. Everyone in the video was created by AI

[Edward64]

From BBC.

Some crater shots.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

Based on available evidence, it appears the explosion happened in a courtyard which is part of the hospital site. Images of the ground after the blast do not show significant damage to surrounding hospital buildings. What the images do show includes scorch marks and burnt-out cars.

The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) say that the absence of a large crater, or blast damage to adjacent buildings, proves that the explosion was not caused by its weapons.

Another important part of missing evidence is missile fragments. Projectiles are often identifiable by the wreckage of their shell, and they can be used to determined the projectile's origin. But in this case, we have not seen that evidence.

[GrantDawg]

And now that they have been moved, any evidence from the fragments will be tainted. What a mess. This is just an ink-blot test at this point. People are going to see whatever position they want to see.

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[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I mean there's a dozen or so videos floating around online that show it resembling what a JDAM looks and sounds like.

Have you shown Joe Biden your evidence? He seems to think it was the Palestinians that blew up the hospitsl.

[GrantDawg]

Really good article on what comes next, which is not good even in the best case scenarios.
Every Option for Israel in Gaza Is Bad

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Have you shown Joe Biden your evidence? He seems to think it was the Palestinians that blew up the hospitsl.

He also said he saw photos of beheaded babies.

[Ghost Econ]

This is like that time Reddit found the Boston Bombers.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Have you shown Joe Biden your evidence? He seems to think it was the Palestinians that blew up the hospitsl.

The problem is that Biden is neither an expert in the specific acoustics of different bombs, missiles, rockets, etc. nor in watching small lights in the dark sky on a video and assessing the specific type of airborne weapons they are. So the video's going to mean nothing to Biden. Thankfully we can rely on experts like RainMaker and others on social media for this information.

[RainMaker]

Well I roughly know where Haifa is on a map and didn't lie about seeing photos of beheaded babies.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well I roughly know where Haifa is on a map and didn't lie about seeing photos of beheaded babies.

So, has your stance on the Hospital incident changed? Do you still believe it was an Israeli rocket attack or lean towards a Hamas/Islamic Jihad misfire?

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well I roughly know where Haifa is on a map...

As do I, although admittedly not until shortly before I made that post yesterday. The whole point of the post regarding the alleged Hamas-Haifa comments was that those comments (and theory) seemed as poorly sourced - and ridiculous - as the stuff you were posting, simply from the opposite political spectrum.

That's why I added:

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Or better yet, let's let it play out and we'll see once we have more information.

It appears you chose to ignore that last part.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So, has your stance on the Hospital incident changed? Do you still believe it was an Israeli rocket attack or lean towards a Hamas/Islamic Jihad misfire?

Not really, it's all just circumstantial. One one hand, we know Israel targets hospitals, we know they struck that hospital twice a couple of days earlier, and we know they told them to evacuate the hospital as more strikes were coming. We also know they initially took credit for the strike on the hospital and bragged they had killed terrorists hiding out there.

On the other hand, we have the word of Israel, a country that has lied incessantly over the years about atrocities they commit. A country that has changed its story half a dozen times on what happened here. Or Joe Biden, a man who blatantly lied about an alleged atrocity during a national press conference.

People can decide on their own based on that evidence. But I'd lean toward the perpetrator being the one that does this routinely, said they would do it, and bragged about doing it.

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

It appears you chose to ignore that last part.

Reporters are banned by Israel from entering into Gaza to report on this. Heck, they murdered an American journalist last year in the West Bank and lied about it. Where are you planning to get this "further information" from?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not really, it's all just circumstantial. One one hand, we know Israel targets hospitals, we know they struck that hospital twice a couple of days earlier, and we know they told them to evacuate the hospital as more strikes were coming. We also know they initially took credit for the strike on the hospital and bragged they had killed terrorists hiding out there.

I looked into the guy who "bragged they killed terrorist" there. He is the Israeli version of Steve Bannon. Not someone that comes anywhere near actual information. He is a guy who inflames anger to help right-wing candidates.

Every single statement you just made is misinformation. It has some elements of truth, but twisted just enough to be used for the "truth" you want. I do find it fascinating that someone can just totally buy the talking points from a terrorist organization. Oh, I forgot. Hamas murders babies, children, whole families in front of each other, but that is justified. Only Israel should be held accountable for anything they do, anything Hamas does, anything Hezbolla does, anything Iran does....
Selling out to one side really puts the blinders on.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I looked into the guy who "bragged they killed terrorist" there. He is the Israeli version of Steve Bannon. Not someone that comes anywhere near actual information. He is a guy who inflames anger to help right-wing candidates.

Netanyahu spoke at the guys wedding. He's an advisor and Netanyahu's "digital spokesman". Not some crank on Twitter.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Every single statement you just made is misinformation. It has some elements of truth, but twisted just enough to be used for the "truth" you want. I do find it fascinating that someone can just totally buy the talking points from a terrorist organization. Oh, I forgot. Hamas murders babies, children, whole families in front of each other, but that is justified. Only Israel should be held accountable for anything they do, anything Hamas does, anything Hezbolla does, anything Iran does....
Selling out to one side really puts the blinders on.

No one said Hamas is justified. You just use that as a strawman because you can't defend the slaughter of innocent lives. I hope everyone in Hamas is killed. I definitely wouldn't have propped them up as Netanyahu did.

Pull up the number of innocent civilians killed and injured in this conflict over the past couple of decades. It's a staggering difference. And that doesn't even touch on the inhumanity of running an apartheid state. Or of imprisoning 2 million people in a tiny stretch of land. Or of illegally settling on lands and violently removing people. The atrocities committed by Hamas (who are just a fraction of Palestinians) pales in comparison to what Israel continues to do to this day.

[GrantDawg]

I didn't justify the killing of innocents. I didn't spend several posts in this thread trying to justify Hamas' attack on Israel like you. The guy you are talking about is a political advisor, just like Steve Bannon. He is absolutely a crank on Twitter, because that is exactly his specialty. It doesn't feed your narrative, so you are going to make him out to be some military advisor to suit your hatred of Israel.
I have already said in this thread that Israel needs to stop the bombing campaign. Israel has been guilty of great evils to the Palestisn people and the continued escalation needs to stop. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen until Israel removes Hamas from power, and the fact Hamas has no qualms in using civilians as human shields means this is going to get worse before it gets better. Hamas has no problem with the death of innocent Palestinians. They actually thrive on it because it makes great PR opportunities. Whether this attack was Israel or Hamas there was only one benefactor to it, and that was Hamas.

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[RainMaker]

If Steve Bannon had tweeted in 2017 that we bombed a hospital in Syria to kill terrorists, then backtracked and blamed jihadists when it turned out to be getting bad press, people would have absolutely believed that it happened.

This isn't going to end when Hamas is out of power. This started long before Hamas was even a thing. People who are imprisoned won't just stop fighting for freedom. And the daily atrocities happening in the West Bank have nothing to do with Hamas either.

And again, Hamas is what Netanyahu wanted. He propped them up over the years to weaken Fatah. He knew that put Israeli citizens at risk, but it was worth the sacrifice their lives to prevent a 2-state solution. If he wanted to destroy Hamas right now, he'd be bombing Qatar.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If Steve Bannon had tweeted in 2017 that we bombed a hospital in Syria to kill terrorists, then backtracked and blamed jihadists when it turned out to be getting bad press, people would have absolutely believed that it happened.

No they wouldn't. Bannon lies to lie for one thing. Secondly, this was a reaction to a tweet, not exposing some grand scheme. It is posts this guy does all the time, tweaking posts that the opposition is posting. This would be like Bannon reposting a tweet about George Floyd right after his death and going "We got another criminal off the streets."

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This isn't going to end when Hamas is out of power. This started long before Hamas was even a thing. People who are imprisoned won't just stop fighting for freedom. And the daily atrocities happening in the West Bank have nothing to do with Hamas either.

And again, Hamas is what Netanyahu wanted. He propped them up over the years to weaken Fatah. He knew that put Israeli citizens at risk, but it was worth the sacrifice their lives to prevent a 2-state solution. If he wanted to destroy Hamas right now, he'd be bombing Qatar.

Netanyahu probably is done whatever happens here. Unless some Grand Peace comes out of this (which there is a greater chance that the moon is made of cheese), his government is done. They are guilty of catastrophic failures across the board. I don't see any way he survives this.
As for "ending with Hamas", of course it doesn't. The only silver lining here is much the ground of any peace there has come after these big upheavals. Hopefully this will lead to a more moderate Israeli government and some real forward progress on some type of agreement. But it is going to get much uglier before it gets better, if it doesn't grow into greater regional fighting which would be beyond catastrophic.

[RainMaker]

لقطات توثق ما بعد استهداف الطائرات الاسرائيلية لأقدم كنيسة في غزة.
حيث كانت الكنيسة ملجأ لما لا يقل عن 400 مسيحي
لا عدد نهائي للضحايا
Israeli attack on Gaza’s Greek Orthodox Church. At least 400 Palestinian Christians were seeking refuge inside.
No final death tolls till now. pic.twitter.com/X3CtzLWugx

— EK �������� (@akh1e) October 19, 2023

[RainMaker]

Total Devastation: Images of survivors picking through the rubble of the Saint Porphyrius Church in Gaza, the world's 3rd oldest Christian building.

Four Israeli missiles hit the building tonight.

Church authorities estimate there are already 150 dead. pic.twitter.com/bo42NmpJxA

— Alan MacLeod (@AlanRMacLeod) October 19, 2023

[Edward64]

re: Greek Orthodox Church

Let's come back in a week or two and see what they say.

The Israeli military said that a blast Thursday night on the St. Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church campus in Gaza City was the result of its airstrike.

The blast resulted in the collapse of a building adjacent to the church where dozens of people were sheltering and killed two people. Hundreds were sheltering on the campus of the church. The Israeli military said a wall of a church in the area was damaged. “The incident is under review,” it said. The Patriarchate of Jerusalem didn't respond to request for comment Friday. On Thursday, it denounced the incident as an Israeli bombing.

Yeah, no denying that is a crater.



vs this one ...

[GrantDawg]

Interesting. Some hope, maybe? It would be nice if they would get them to stop the bombing campaign as well.

NEWS

The United States and European governments have been putting pressure on Israel to delay its ground invasion of Gaza to buy time for secret talks underway via Qatar to win the release of hostages held by Hamas.

After initially resisting a delay in what officials said…

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) October 20, 2023

[RainMaker]

I still can't imagine they'll go through with a ground war. Young people are not exactly on board with the government there and we've seen they aren't equipped for an urban battle environment. Their military fell into the trap that we saw recently with Lebanon or with South Korea after WW2.

The best way to do it is to put pressure on Qatar. That will have to come from the United States as Israel doesn't care about the hostages. Two Americans were just released.

NEW: Hamas hostages Natalie and Judith Raanan have been released, according to Israeli state media.

The Chicagoland mother & daughter were kidnapped by Hamas while visitng relatives. Family here has so far declined comment. @ilana_arougheti's story: Israeli state media confirms release of Hamas hostages from Evanston
— Jake Sheridan (@JakeSheridan_) October 20, 2023

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Interesting. Some hope, maybe? It would be nice if they would get them to stop the bombing campaign as well.

NEWS

The United States and European governments have been putting pressure on Israel to delay its ground invasion of Gaza to buy time for secret talks underway via Qatar to win the release of hostages held by Hamas.

After initially resisting a delay in what officials said…

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) October 20, 2023

Can you really say talks are "secret" in a tweet where you speak about them?

[RainMaker]

Just really rotten stuff.https://t.co/SAOL6okPxA pic.twitter.com/2lC3Dr3one

— Abe Silberstein (@abesilbe) October 19, 2023

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Can you really say talks are "secret" in a tweet where you speak about them?

ooooooooooooooooooooo secret talks

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Can you really say talks are "secret" in a tweet where you speak about them?

As long as no country has announce them as official, yes. "Secret" in this instance (and in diplomacy in general) means "not made officially public."

[Ghost Econ]

It's like Michigan advanced scouting.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Interesting. Some hope, maybe? It would be nice if they would get them to stop the bombing campaign as well.

I guess it's possible they won't go into Gaza city, Joe told them to not make the same mistakes.

But I can see them going into Gaza Strip and creating more of a buffer zone. They'll eventually give that back in negotiations.

I don't see not going in at all.

[RainMaker]

Israel Police: Anti-war protesters will be sent to Gaza

Israeli police chief says there's a ‘zero tolerance’ police for anti-war protests, threatening to send them to Gaza in buses. https://t.co/MIHJCot1JO pic.twitter.com/T3gy8ZkFL2

— Middle East Monitor (@MiddleEastMnt) October 19, 2023

[RainMaker]

Former United States Congressman:

I was really worried about this. �� With great sadness, I have now confirmed that several of my relatives (including Viola and Yara pictured here) were killed at Saint Porphyrius Orthodox Church in Gaza, where they had been sheltering, when part of the complex was destroyed as… pic.twitter.com/w5k1xEeTgF

— Justin Amash (@justinamash) October 20, 2023

[Edward64]

Supply trucks are moving.

Rafah crossing: What is it and how does it work? | CNN

The crossing is presently closed. It was briefly opened on Saturday morning to allow the first convoy of 20 trucks, laden with vital supplies, to cross into Gaza.

According to Egyptian authorities at the Rafah crossing, 13 trucks were carrying medicine and medical supplies, five were carrying food and two trucks had water.

While many international organizations welcomed the short reopening, aid workers say the supplies are a fraction of what’s required for the 2.2 million people crammed into Gaza under a blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt.

The United States has been pressuring Egypt to establish a humanitarian corridor for civilians in Gaza, as well as for foreigners.

There are around 200 trucks at the border waiting to get into Gaza and negotiations are ongoing between Israel and the US for an agreement that could allow more aid to get in.

Can't blame Egypt. Odds are they'll be left with a ton of permanent refugees if they let this happen.

Egypt has said it won’t allow refugees to flood its territory and has instead insisted that Israel allow it to deliver aid to Gazans.

Article also had link with movement between Gaza and Egypt.

Gaza crossings: movement of people and goods | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory

According to United Nations figures, an average of 27,000 people crossed the border each month as of July this year. The border was open for 138 days and closed for 74 this year until that month.

[Edward64]

A lot of info in the opinion poll below. Broken out by age groups. In general, younger & older people think differently (no surprise).

https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-con...ts.pdf#page=42

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

re: Greek Orthodox Church

Let's come back in a week or two and see what they say.

Yeah, no denying that is a crater.

vs this one ...

re: Greek Orthodox Church bombing.

IDF Confirms It Damaged a Church in a Strike on a Hamas Command Center - Alex Demas - The Dispatch

The Holy Orthodox Order of Saint George the Great Martyr, to which the Gazan church belongs, confirmed the report, stating that bombs hit two church walls and that an estimated 150 to 200 people were killed. The order later revised its death toll, stating on Friday that approximately 20 to 25 people had been confirmed dead, some of whom have been named.

Former Rep. Justin Amash—a Republican-turned-Libertarian from Michigan who is of Palestinian descent—tweeted on Friday that several of his relatives were killed during the strike, including his infant second cousin, and later posted a video of the damage sustained at the church.

In the video, the church sanctuary itself is shown to have been spared by the blast. However, the adjacent church annex collapsed, killing a number of people sheltering inside.

Amash's video.

In this video, provided to me by a relative on site, you can see the destruction at Saint Porphyrius Orthodox Church in Gaza. The ancient sanctuary remains standing, but the church annex, which includes offices and meeting spaces for the Christian community, collapsed from an… pic.twitter.com/jJfRD29uJK

— Justin Amash (@justinamash) October 23, 2023

The IDF official response

Unlike the recent explosion at the al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza, for which Israeli officials denied responsibility, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) confirmed that they had inadvertently damaged the Church of Saint Porphyrius in a strike. “Earlier tonight (October 20th), IDF fighter jets targeted the command and control center belonging to a Hamas terrorist, involved in the launching of rockets and mortars toward Israel. The command and control center was used to carry out attacks against Israel, and contained infrastructure belonging to the Hamas terrorist organization,” an IDF spokesperson told The Dispatch Fact Check. “As a result of the IDF strike, a wall of a Church in the area of the center was damaged. We are aware of reports on casualties. The incident is under review.”

[Edward64]

Good article. Basically, saying that Joe is discouraging Bibi from going all in assaulting Gaza.

US military advisers invoke lessons of Iraq in urging Israelis to avoid all-out ground assault in Gaza | CNN Politics

Biden has encouraged Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in their recent conversations to think through how such an invasion would unfold, and what the exit strategy would be, officials said. Biden and Netanyahu spoke on Sunday and again on Monday, and in those conversations, the president sought to try to “get [Netanyahu] to use his head, not his heart,” a source familiar said.

Still, the sentiment across much of the US government is that Israel is almost certain to proceed with a full scale ground invasion, in large part because domestic sentiment inside Israel is so enflamed that Netanyahu may feel he has no other choice.

We've sent advisors. TBH, I'm not convinced the US tactics below will work.

In helping the Israel Defense Forces game out a number of different strategies to defeat Hamas, US military advisers on the ground in Israel are invoking lessons learned specifically from Fallujah in 2004, one of the bloodiest battles of the Iraq War.

Instead of launching a full-scale ground assault on Gaza, which could endanger hostages, civilians, and further inflame tensions in the region, US military advisers are urging Israelis to use a combination of precision airstrikes and targeted special operations raids.

Israel doesn't have many good choices. Personally, I don't think western world opinion (e.g. US) can sustain a prolonged invasion. If they go in, it'll have to be quick, destroy as much of Hamas as possible (and hostages will be secondary).

But because an invasion hasn't been launched yet, good chance that Joe's conversations with Bibi is having its effect.

[RainMaker]

Less than 48 hours after Blinken told Jewish Community Leaders that he asked Qatari PM to rein in Al Jazeera's Israel-Hamas war coverage, Israel kills the whole family of Wael Dahdouh , Aljazeera Senior correspondent in Gaza. https://t.co/p1cNuLBNSP

— Said Arikat (@SMArikat) October 25, 2023

[RainMaker]

Really going all in on murdering journalists.

This madness needs to end. Just an hour ago, Israeli warplanes bombed the home of journalist Doaa Sharaf, resulting in her and her son's murder. pic.twitter.com/Mc9u5m567E

— Abdalhadi Alijla عبد الهادي العجلة (@alijla2021) October 25, 2023

[GrantDawg]

Every indication is that Israel is going into Gaza soon. Most likely the next 24 hours. The US is still trying to get them to scale back their plans, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Every indication is that Israel is going into Gaza soon. Most likely the next 24 hours. The US is still trying to get them to scale back their plans, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I don't think the US is trying to get them to do anything.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think the US is trying to get them to do anything.

You are wrong, but you can think what you want.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Every indication is that Israel is going into Gaza soon. Most likely the next 24 hours. The US is still trying to get them to scale back their plans, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I’m surprise it’s taken so long.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I’m surprise it’s taken so long.

The reports that said the US had talked them into holding out at least till Saturday to see if they could get some sort of ceasefire agreement in place looks to be dead on. Other than the few hostage released and the brief opening of the Egyptian border, it looks like it was a total failure.

[Edward64]

Redditors are saying there’s IDF-Hamas fighting now. Looks like this is the invasion.