Football Officiating - Career Progression

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Actually now that you said it...it makes sense. No chance in force by R so that for K "placed" the ball OOB. Nice one!

Nice little loophole for the receiving team though.

[Dr. Sak]

Question 10: 1st and 10 for A on their own 35 yardline. The quarterback A1 is lined up in a shotgun formation 5 yards behind the center. At the snap he throws the ball to A10 who took 1 step back from the Line of Scrimmage. A10 catches the ball, stays behind the LOS and throws it back to A1 who makes a simulations catch with B2 at the 50 yard line. What is the ruling for this play?

Question 11: During a scrimmage kick, K10 punts the ball at R's 45 yard line. The wind is so strong that the punt does not cross the neutral zone. B2 attempts to catch the ball at the 45 yard line, muffs the ball and a) K recovers and runs for a touchdown, b) K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone and punts is again into R's end zone. What do we have in both a) and b).

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question 10: 1st and 10 for A on their own 35 yardline. The quarterback A1 is lined up in a shotgun formation 5 yards behind the center. At the snap he throws the ball to A10 who took 1 step back from the Line of Scrimmage. A10 catches the ball, stays behind the LOS and throws it back to A1 who makes a simulations catch with B2 at the 50 yard line. What is the ruling for this play?

In general, a simultaneous catch is an immediate dead ball with possession remaining with A. In this case though, I believe there would be a flag for an illegal forward pass since the first pass to A10 was forward.

Question 11: During a scrimmage kick, K10 punts the ball at R's 45 yard line. The wind is so strong that the punt does not cross the neutral zone. B2 attempts to catch the ball at the 45 yard line, muffs the ball and a) K recovers and runs for a touchdown, b) K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone and punts is again into R's end zone. What do we have in both a) and b).

Situation A would be a TD for K. You normally can't advance a muffed kick, but since the ball was behind the LOS, K could have picked it up off the ground and advanced it. I don't think the muff changes that.

Situation B would be a touchback. Since the first punt didn't cross the LOS, K could kick it again. Realistically, there would probably be someone downfield early for a penalty here, but this isn't in the description.

I'll lay even odds on being 3-for-3 or 0-for-3 here.

[albionmoonlight]

I agree with BrianD on all three answers.

[albionmoonlight]

dola--

I will note that in hypo (b) they must be playing in a tornado since the wind was strong enough to keep the ball from crossing the neutral zone, but seconds later allowed K to punt it 45+ yards.

[BrianD]

Do we know for sure if a forward pass that stays behind the LOS is counted as a forward pass? For some reason I have this thought that there was a special rule about that. Was it just a rule allowing downfield blocking, or was it a rule allowing another pass?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

dola--

I will note that in hypo (b) they must be playing in a tornado since the wind was strong enough to keep the ball from crossing the neutral zone, but seconds later allowed K to punt it 45+ yards.

In my first ever state playoff game, I saw a punt get punted...reach the LOS and get blown backward to where the punter caught it. We were getting some pretty heavy gusts that day.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question 10: 1st and 10 for A on their own 35 yardline. The quarterback A1 is lined up in a shotgun formation 5 yards behind the center. At the snap he throws the ball to A10 who took 1 step back from the Line of Scrimmage. A10 catches the ball, stays behind the LOS and throws it back to A1 who makes a simulations catch with B2 at the 50 yard line. What is the ruling for this play?

Even though the ball was still behind the LOS, the pass was forward. You are only allowed 1 forward pass per play, therefore it is an illegal forward pass on A. 5 yard penalty plus a loss of down. So it would be 2nd and 16 from the 29 yard line.

Question 11: During a scrimmage kick, K10 punts the ball at R's 45 yard line. The wind is so strong that the punt does not cross the neutral zone. B2 attempts to catch the ball at the 45 yard line, muffs the ball and a) K recovers and runs for a touchdown, b) K recovers the kick behind the neutral zone and punts is again into R's end zone. What do we have in both a) and b).

In a) it is a touchdown. The only way K can advance a muff on a scrimmage kick is if the kick is muffed either behind the LOS or is muffed past the LOS and travels back behind the LOS where K recovers and can advance.

In b) it is a touchback. Since the ball did not cross the LOS, K can still run, pass, or punt the ball.

Originally Posted by BrianD

Do we know for sure if a forward pass that stays behind the LOS is counted as a forward pass? For some reason I have this thought that there was a special rule about that. Was it just a rule allowing downfield blocking, or was it a rule allowing another pass?

It is a forward pass but since it is behind the LOS, blockers can still release downfield and block. Don't think too much into it, just think how screen plays to the RB develop. The rule was added so that you can only make 1 forward pass per play.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

It is a forward pass but since it is behind the LOS, blockers can still release downfield and block. Don't think too much into it, just think how screen plays to the RB develop. The rule was added so that you can only make 1 forward pass per play.

I remember thinking at the time (this is fairly recent, right?) that allowing blockers downfield on a forward pass behind the LOS seemed wrong. That is why in your example I had to remember which "wrong" rule was actually right.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I remember thinking at the time (this is fairly recent, right?) that allowing blockers downfield on a forward pass behind the LOS seemed wrong. That is why in your example I had to remember which "wrong" rule was actually right.

I've only been doing this for 4 years but I remember way back when I was playing at 9 and 10 years old and we had screen plays to RB's where the linemen went downfield. I remember our coach yelling that the RB had to catch the ball behind the LOS for the blockers to be able to go down field.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I've only been doing this for 4 years but I remember way back when I was playing at 9 and 10 years old and we had screen plays to RB's where the linemen went downfield. I remember our coach yelling that the RB had to catch the ball behind the LOS for the blockers to be able to go down field.

It is entirely possible that I just had the rule wrong for years and it was only recently I got corrected. I can remember our linemen doing a count before the started downfield, but maybe that was just for timing so they stayed close to the RB.

[Dr. Sak]

I will have another question or two in a bit. If you have any, fire away.

[albionmoonlight]

How often, if ever, do you see teams try exotic things like the fumblerooski or the center sneak or that thing where the offensive line all lines up well away from the center?

And, do they ever work?

And, what would you say is the strangest legal designed play that you saw a team attempt?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

How often, if ever, do you see teams try exotic things like the fumblerooski or the center sneak or that thing where the offensive line all lines up well away from the center?

And, do they ever work?

And, what would you say is the strangest legal designed play that you saw a team attempt?

Most of that crazy stuff with the line lined up away from the center happens for PATs. Coaches do it so that teams have to spend some of their allotted practice time each week practicing defending it.

Punts are another time where you get some crazy formations. There is a numbers exception on punts so you don't need players numbered 50 to 79 as interior linemen. So you'll get crazy formations with 6 guys on the LOS on one side of the center, making the center actually eligible to go out for a pass on that play.

Or another team staggers who is on the line and who isnt on a punt. I think it is stupid because most of the time some kid wont line up on the LOS like they are suppose to and cost their team 5 yard for illegal formation.

I have never seen a fumblrouski nor a center sneak, and something tells me that the center sneak is illegal. For an interior lineman to be able to run with the ball (that isn't a fumble) they must turn completely around and face their own goalline before taking the ball.

This isn't strange but before games our Referee and umpire will ask coaches if they have or plan on using any trick plays or formations, just so we are aware. This one team planned to start the game with a triple reverse. We all knew it was going to be a nightmare and ended up costing the team a 30 yard loss on their first play.

Once on a punt the punter caught the ball on the snap...bent down and just heaved the ball up in the air. Then a player on K caught the ball and ran for a TD. R didn't realize that it was thrown and not kicked. Pretty creative play.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Punts are another time where you get some crazy formations. There is a numbers exception on punts so you don't need players numbered 50 to 79 as interior linemen. So you'll get crazy formations with 6 guys on the LOS on one side of the center, making the center actually eligible to go out for a pass on that play.

Speaking of his, have you run into anyone playing the A-11 offense yet? That set uses the numbers exception by lining the QB up in a 7+ yard shotgun so they are always in a punt formation. Everyone has an eligible number, so the defense has to figure out who is on the LOS and who isn't. Sounds like it could be a mess to officiate.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Speaking of his, have you run into anyone playing the A-11 offense yet? That set uses the numbers exception by lining the QB up in a 7+ yard shotgun so they are always in a punt formation. Everyone has an eligible number, so the defense has to figure out who is on the LOS and who isn't. Sounds like it could be a mess to officiate.

I haven't run into a team that does this yet. But we were warned about it last year. One of our chapter meeting discussed the A-11 offense.

The other thing that is in the rules which I have yet to see is the fair catch kick. If K is punting from his on EZ and punts it short...R can fair catch it and then request a FG attempt on the next down. The FG attempt would be from the spot of the catch and B would have to line up 10 yards from that spot and not allowed to cross the restraining line till the ball is kicked.

[Dr. Sak]

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I haven't run into a team that does this yet. But we were warned about it last year. One of our chapter meeting discussed the A-11 offense.

The other thing that is in the rules which I have yet to see is the fair catch kick. If K is punting from his on EZ and punts it short...R can fair catch it and then request a FG attempt on the next down. The FG attempt would be from the spot of the catch and B would have to line up 10 yards from that spot and not allowed to cross the restraining line till the ball is kicked.

The other fun part of this - if I remember correctly - is that it is an untimed down which is allowed even if time expires during the punt.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

The other fun part of this - if I remember correctly - is that it is an untimed down which is allowed even if time expires during the punt.

You are correct.

There was a loophole last year that allowed teams to carry over penalties into OT. If A scores and B commits a foul during the play, A can carry it over to the PAT or KO. Well nothing was written in the rules that you couldn't do it if time expired in the 4th and A scored and carry it over into OT. This year they changed it. You can carry it over from quarter to quarter (even the 2nd to the 3rd) but in the 4th you must take it on the PAT.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?

I'll say that B6's actions were legal (I think that a defender can hit a blocker low). I also think that the offense does not get the benefit of the forward progress of the fumble. So I will say 3rd and 5 from B's 45.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?

This is going to be mostly a guess, but let's see how it goes...

I don't know the rule for what B6 did, but I'm going to assume that hitting someone at the knees outside of the free-blocking zone is probably a 15-yard penalty for safety reasons. I'm also going to guess that a forward fumble is OK in HS football. Because of this I've got the ball marked down at the 41 with an added 15 yard penalty so it will be first and 10 for A on B's 26.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question 12: 2nd and 10 from the 50 yardline. A3 is running a sweep where A5 and A6 are blockers in front of the play. B6 runs up and hits both A5 and A6 at the knees allowing B7 to come in and make the tackle. A5 fumbles on B's 45 and it goes out of bounds forward to B's 41 yard line. Where is the ball spotted?

B6's hitting below the waist is illegal in High School (but not college or the NFL). There is no hitting below the waist on offense or defense, unless you are and the ball are in the free blocking zone.

The basic spot for this play is the end of the run. Also in High School if the ball isn't intentionally batted forward, the spot for the fumble is where it rests. In this case the end of the run is the 41 yard line. 15 yard penalty for B which makes it 1st and 10 for A on B's 26 yard line.

[dacman]

Not one I would've gotten right until I saw it IRL:

A scores a touchdown and elects to go for the 2pt conversion. On the attempt, A1 attempts a backward pass where the ball is batted in the air behind the LOS by B5. The ball travels forward to where A2, A3, B6 and B7 all are standing in the EZ, near the back, and they collide into each other while attempting to catch the ball. B7 winds up with the ball while A2, A3, and B6 all fall to the ground. B7, still standing, attempts to advance the ball and manages to go forward several yards where A3 tackles B7 before B7 leaves the EZ. What's the ruling?

edit: typos and clarification

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by dacman

Not one I would've gotten right until I saw it IRL:

A scores a touchdown and elects to go for the 2pt conversion. On the attempt, A1 attempts to pass where the ball is batted in the air behind the LOS by B5. The ball travels for to where A2, A3, B6 and B7 all are standing in the EZ, near the back, and they collide into each other while attempting to catch the ball. B7 winds up with the ball while A2, A3, and B6 all fall to the ground. B7, still standing, attempts to advance the ball and manages to go forward several yards where A3 tackles B7 before B7 leaves the EZ. What's the ruling?

Since B tipped the ball...all Pass Interference restrictions are gone. Once B secures the ball during a Try the play is blown dead.

[dacman]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Since B tipped the ball...all Pass Interference restrictions are gone. Once B secures the ball during a Try the play is blown dead.

Meh...probably should've worded that differently. Try this: what would the ruling be if the attempted pass by A1 was ruled a lateral. I'm guessing the NCAA rule is different (this happened during a college game).

[Dr. Sak]

B's force put it in the EZ so would it be a safety? 2 points for A.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

B's force put it in the EZ so would it be a safety? 2 points for A.

This is on a 2-point conversion attempt, right? Make that a 1-point safety.

[Dr. Sak]

Thanks for correcting me.

[dacman]

Originally Posted by dacman

Not one I would've gotten right until I saw it IRL:

A scores a touchdown and elects to go for the 2pt conversion. On the attempt, A1 attempts a backward pass where the ball is batted in the air behind the LOS by B5. The ball travels forward to where A2, A3, B6 and B7 all are standing in the EZ, near the back, and they collide into each other while attempting to catch the ball. B7 winds up with the ball while A2, A3, and B6 all fall to the ground. B7, still standing, attempts to advance the ball and manages to go forward several yards where A3 tackles B7 before B7 leaves the EZ. What's the ruling?

Spoiler

Since B forced the ball into the EZ and did not advance the ball out of the EZ, a safety occured. A is awarded 1 point for a conversion safety.

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=3923.0

[Suburban Rhythm]

Question back to the Dr. Something I saw in the Steelers-Eagles game last night that made me .

Eagles first drive, 3rd and 7 or so from the Steelers 15. McNabb throws a pass for the TE (I think Celek). James Harrison is holding him pretty bad.

The official waves the pass incomplete as the ball bounces through the EZ. only THEN does he reach for and toss his flag. Is that taught-- to signal the incompletion first? I don't think the incompletion--or completion-- should matter if there is a penalty.

[BrianD]

I'll take a stab at this before Sak gives the official ruling. When you've got multiple things to do at the same time, I would imagine killing the play and controlling the clock would take precedence over marking the penalty.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'll take a stab at this before Sak gives the official ruling. When you've got multiple things to do at the same time, I would imagine killing the play and controlling the clock would take precedence over marking the penalty.

Wouldn't the clock stop on the penalty, too, though?

And my original explanation wasn't great. If it's interference, shouldn't he make that call while the ball is in the air...or even defensive holding before the ball was even thown?

Just seemed awkward to me that the penalty is occuring while the clock is still running...he calls the pass incomplete...and only then throws the flag.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Wouldn't the clock stop on the penalty, too, though?

And my original explanation wasn't great. If it's interference, shouldn't he make that call while the ball is in the air...or even defensive holding before the ball was even thown?

Just seemed awkward to me that the penalty is occuring while the clock is still running...he calls the pass incomplete...and only then throws the flag.

The timekeeper wouldn't stop the clock when the flag comes out. The clock will stop either when the ref signals incomplete or gives the "stop clock" signal.

In theory, the penalty probably should be identified and signaled before the play ends, but if there is any reason that multiple things need to happen at the same time, blowing the play dead is more important (safety) and stopping the clock comes next. A penalty flag is one of those things that you can always catch up on.

[Dr. Sak]

There is no real rule on when to throw the flag. It would have "looked" better if he would've thrown the flag, then signaled incomplete. Me personally, when I call offsides or false start I always hit the whistle first, then throw the flag. The only time I can recall throwing a flag after I've blown the whistle (besides what I mentioned before) was for a dead ball unsportsmanlike call.

We usually meet with the time keeper before the game and he knows that all incomplete passes the ball stops. If it was an obvious incomplete like you said, the ref really didn't need to rush to signal. But what he did wasn't technically wrong, it just would have appeared better to throw the flag first.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Once on a punt the punter caught the ball on the snap...bent down and just heaved the ball up in the air. Then a player on K caught the ball and ran for a TD. R didn't realize that it was thrown and not kicked. Pretty creative play.

That...that I'd never heard of.

[airulf]

Originally Posted by Poli

That...that I'd never heard of.

I am not into the difference between high school and NCAA rules at all, but as a little note, I can ad, that if you fake the punt and pass the ball in stead in a punt like trajectory, defensive pass inteference will not be called.

[Dr. Sak]

Question 13: B1 intercepts A's pass at B's 6 and retreats into his own end zone where B's facemask is grasp and twisted by A2 and B then fumbles in the endzone with the ball rolling a)onto the field of play and out of bounds at the 3 yard line or b) to B's 5 where B recovers. In both a) and b)...whos ball is it, and where is the ball spotted?

[airulf]

a) B ball 1-10 at B18

b) B ball 1-10 at B20

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question 13: B1 intercepts A's pass at B's 6 and retreats into his own end zone where B's facemask is grasp and twisted by A2 and B then fumbles in the endzone with the ball rolling a)onto the field of play and out of bounds at the 3 yard line or b) to B's 5 where B recovers. In both a) and b)...whos ball is it, and where is the ball spotted?

In both a) and b) B retains the ball. Basic spot for these fouls are the end of the run which in this case since B retreated in the endzone under its own power it is the goalline. Normally it would be a safety but since A fouled it is not.

In both cases it is B's ball...1st and 10 on their own 15 yard line.

[Dr. Sak]

So in a game last night I had two kids spit on each other. Plus I had the coach on my sideline taunting the opposing team players. He said that they were going to put a physical hurting on the kid like he's never felt before.

I sometimes wonder if my job title should involve some sort of babysitting fee.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

So in a game last night I had two kids spit on each other. Plus I had the coach on my sideline taunting the opposing team players. He said that they were going to put a physical hurting on the kid like he's never felt before.

I sometimes wonder if my job title should involve some sort of babysitting fee.

LOL.....I enjoyed umpiring fast pitch softball for 10 years, but I don't miss those rare occasions where stuff like that ruins the experience.

[albionmoonlight]

Sak,

Do you find that the obnoxious coaches/players/parents/whoever are actually normal people when you talk to them outside of gametime and it is just the game that makes them assholes? Or do you get a sense that these are actually assholes all the time and the game just gives them a chance to really put that on their sleeve for three hours?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

So in a game last night I had two kids spit on each other. Plus I had the coach on my sideline taunting the opposing team players. He said that they were going to put a physical hurting on the kid like he's never felt before.

I sometimes wonder if my job title should involve some sort of babysitting fee.

Is there anything you can do about either situation? Is there still a rule where you can eject a kid after 2 USC fouls occur?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Sak,

Do you find that the obnoxious coaches/players/parents/whoever are actually normal people when you talk to them outside of gametime and it is just the game that makes them assholes? Or do you get a sense that these are actually assholes all the time and the game just gives them a chance to really put that on their sleeve for three hours?

The coaches are all looking for that edge. They all use different tactics to try and get the calls to go their way. Some scream...some bitch non-stop...others are civil and discuss things. As an official i know i have 5 other friends on that field because the rest will turn on you at the drop of a hat.

Off the field most are all civil. But on the field they do whatever they can to help their team win.

Originally Posted by BrianD

Is there anything you can do about either situation? Is there still a rule where you can eject a kid after 2 USC fouls occur?

There are two types of personal fouls. One are unnecessary roughness and one is unsportsmanlike conduct. The difference is the UNR involve contact while the Unsportsmanlike don't. You can only get 2 UNR's till you get thrown out. There is no rule for the amount of unsportsman like calls.

[Dr. Sak]

Dola...also I forgot to tell you guys this. Our crew was graded a few weeks ago. The grader told me I was the best line judge in the Western half of Pennsylvania.

I was pretty stoked to hear that.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Dola...also I forgot to tell you guys this. Our crew was graded a few weeks ago. The grader told me I was the best line judge in the Western half of Pennsylvania.

I was pretty stoked to hear that.

Congratulations! You and the best guy from Eastern PA should duke it out in Harrisburg for line judge supremacy! I'd buy a ticket to that.

[Dr. Sak]

Well I just found out today that I was accepted to be a collegian official starting this fall. Not sure if I'll get a full schedule, but I should get a few games. Mostly on the D-II or D-III level, but it is a step forwards...and to think I only started doing this 3 years ago.

[BrianD]

Fantastic. Congratulations.

[Radii]

wow, that's awesome. Congrats!

[Butter]

Nice.

Remember, Mt. Union always holds. ALWAYS.