THIS is religious repression

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Drake

Right, right. I think you're assuming that I'm thinking more narrowly than I am. As far as I'm concerned, whether one says what they believe is the "only way" or merely "the best way", it still comes down to a value judgment. One still weighs a particular path as better than the others because those others are in one way or another flawed.

My whole point is that making a choice implies that the non-choices are deficient to varying degrees. And what's more, that's okay. Finding things that others believe to be true to be completely wrong, flawed or just plain foolish because they conflict with things that you believe to be true is a necessary part of belief. To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. You're wrong." is okay. If you don't believe in your convictions, what's the point in having convictions in the first place?

But so long as the religion in question does not claim to be the "one way," then that leaves room for me to say that religion X is the "best way" for me, but that religion Y might be the "best way" for you. That in no way lessons the strength of faith that I have in my own beliefs in being the best way for me.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Drake

My whole point is that making a choice implies that the non-choices are deficient to varying degrees. And what's more, that's okay. Finding things that others believe to be true to be completely wrong, flawed or just plain foolish because they conflict with things that you believe to be true is a necessary part of belief. To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. You're wrong." is okay. If you don't believe in your convictions, what's the point in having convictions in the first place?

There's a big difference between the best way and the only way. I may take the highway home, but it doesn't mean the back roads won't get me there too.

To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. You're wrong." is NOT okay. It's insulting.
To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. I think you're wrong." is OK.

Why? Because faith is not a statement of fact. Even if you believe it with every fiber of your being, it is still nothing more than your opinion. And as such, you should have the courtesy and respect to recognize that not everyone else will share your opinion.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

There's a big difference between the best way and the only way. I may take the highway home, but it doesn't mean the back roads won't get me there too.

To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. You're wrong." is NOT okay. It's insulting.
To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. I think you're wrong." is OK.

Why? Because faith is not a statement of fact. Even if you believe it with every fiber of your being, it is still nothing more than your opinion. And as such, you should have the courtesy and respect to recognize that not everyone else will share your opinion.

There is no sharp line such as you are drawing between 'religious beliefs' and an entire worldview.

If somebody told you they believed they were living in a simulation designed by somebody named Solecismic, what would you tell them?

If somebody told you they believed the world was flat, what would you say?

If somebody told you they believed the world was created by God 6000 years ago, what would you tell them?

If somebody told you they still believed we were going to find WMD's in Iraq, what would you tell them?

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Celeval

You're missing the possibility of "the best way for you", though. The statements you make are perfectly reasonable if you make the assumption that the value of X belief is entirely not dependent on the person or persons who believe it. If there can be a dependency there, then you can very easily say that X is best for you, but someone who believes Y may not be wrong.

I think I know what Gilbert K. Chesterton would say about this line of thinking...

[Telle]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

There is no sharp line such as you are drawing between 'religious beliefs' and an entire worldview.

If somebody told you they believed they were living in a simulation designed by somebody named Solecismic, what would you tell them?

If somebody told you they believed the world was flat, what would you say?

If somebody told you they believed the world was created by God 6000 years ago, what would you tell them?

If somebody told you they still believed we were going to find WMD's in Iraq, what would you tell them?

"I think you're wrong, and there's a whole lot of evidence that suggests that you're wrong."

If they said "two plus two is five", then I'd say "you're wrong."

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

There is no sharp line such as you are drawing between 'religious beliefs' and an entire worldview.

If somebody told you they believed they were living in a simulation designed by somebody named Solecismic, what would you tell them?

I think you're wrong. And you've been watching far too much of the Matrix.

Originally Posted by st.cronin

If somebody told you they believed the world was flat, what would you say?

Um. How do you explain looking at the earth from space, then?

Originally Posted by st.cronin

If somebody told you they believed the world was created by God 6000 years ago, what would you tell them?

I think you're wrong.

Originally Posted by st.cronin

If somebody told you they still believed we were going to find WMD's in Iraq, what would you tell them?

Did we bring them in? I think you're wrong.

[RendeR]

I think what this comes down to St.dumbass, is that without a thorough understanding of something you do NOT have the right to mock it. Ignorance is not bliss and does not withhold from you the title of ignorant religious bigot if you choose to mock someone elses religion or belief system.

Grow up you little self indulgent putz. Show some respect to others.


Every time you've posted in this thread pissed me off one step further. You know nothing of the things you mock, and you freely admit you don't care to and that you feel justified in mocking them because "its your right" well guess what, its just as rightful that others call you a pathetic excuse for a christian too, based on their knowledge of YOUR religion. The street rolls both ways.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

If somebody told you they believed they were living in a simulation designed by somebody named Solecismic, what would you tell them?

Originally Posted by Telle

"I think you're wrong, and there's a whole lot of evidence that suggests that you're wrong."

I'm pretty sure there CAN'T be any evidence that that's wrong.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

If you believe in a just, loving and benevolent God, you almost *have* to believe in my position. For example, God commands that you must believe in him. How that belief is performed is between myself and God. Only man-made trappings of organized religion dictate that you must believe in him and worship him ONLY in a certain way.

I almost *have* to, eh? Meaning that if I don't, I'm wrong?

If that's the truth, then people who don't believe in that particular way are left behind or punished. This does NOT fit with the image of a just, loving and benevolent God. Therefore, there's no singular way to worship God.

It does not fit with the image of a loving and benevolent God, yes. It does fit with the image of a Just God.

You can have faith in God and not believe in certain religious trappings that man has created to further his own ends. And one of those major trappings is exclusivity, a premise I utterly and completely reject.

So I believe you have faith and religon confused. They are not the same thing.

I think we more or less are saying the same thing. I just think we draw the line between faith and religion at different points on the spectrum. Doesn't mean that I don't think where you've chosen to draw the line is wrong. And the bottom line is that's okay. This is what I'm trying to get at: I can tolerate your belief, examine it closely if I want or just dismiss it out of hand, and that's all that anyone has the right to expect out of me (or you, or anyone else).

(Can you tell that I'm really, really trying to stay away from specific theological arguments? Or really anything that has to do with theology in general?)

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I think what this comes down to St.dumbass, is that without a thorough understanding of something you do NOT have the right to mock it. Ignorance is not bliss and does not withhold from you the title of ignorant religious bigot if you choose to mock someone elses religion or belief system.

Grow up you little self indulgent putz. Show some respect to others.


Every time you've posted in this thread pissed me off one step further. You know nothing of the things you mock, and you freely admit you don't care to and that you feel justified in mocking them because "its your right" well guess what, its just as rightful that others call you a pathetic excuse for a christian too, based on their knowledge of YOUR religion. The street rolls both ways.

The major difference is that he mocks Wicca in general - and therefore everyone who subscribes to it. Even more disgusting is his admitted lack of understanding of what he mocks. I just mock him and his ignorant views and how they entirely disagree with what goes into being a good Christian.

[Drake]

Feh. This thread took a turn I'm not interested in between my two posts. I'm not interested in the Truth vs Truth For Me argument.

That said, the only bit I want to touch on is Blackadar's comment:

To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. You're wrong." is NOT okay. It's insulting.
To say "I believe X. You believe something else, Y. I think you're wrong." is OK.

Why? Because faith is not a statement of fact. Even if you believe it with every fiber of your being, it is still nothing more than your opinion. And as such, you should have the courtesy and respect to recognize that not everyone else will share your opinion.

I continue to argue that it is okay. It's fundamental to belief as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, it *isn't* okay to declare it out loud, especially in a way that is hurtful or disrespectful to the person who believes otherwise. Because really, the difference between "I think you're wrong" and "you're wrong" is a social semantic game we play to keep from causing offense. Even when we say "I think you're wrong", what we're saying inside our head is "nope, you're just wrong". Don't misunderstand, this is a useful social game, because it keeps us from going at one another hammer and tong (literally, I mean), but it's still a game.

----

Additionally, you argue that faith is not fact. I hold to the scriptural definition that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". The Apostle Paul is defining faith as a supposition of fact. It is fact for which proof is unnecessary because it is apparent. That's a tough definition. It's hard to get my mind around. Most days, I'm not even sure that I really understand it, but it rings true. To me.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

The major difference is that he mocks Wicca in general - and therefore everyone who subscribes to it. Even more disgusting is his admitted lack of understanding of what he mocks. I just mock him and his ignorant views and how they entirely disagree with what goes into being a good Christian.

And I have no problem with what you've said or how you've said it thus far.

I just get irate when ths so-called "religous right" thinks they can claim soveriegnty over what is "right and above mockery"

Every religion is the same, it helps those who belive to feel safe, secure and comforted when they are in spiritual tuermoil. When st.cronin steps all over one religion because he believes in another, he simply become an ignorant bigot.

can I say IGNORANT BIGOT one more time?

I can: Ignorant BIGOT.

thank you, nothing more to see here, please move along.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Drake

Feh. This thread took a turn I'm not interested in between my two posts. I'm not interested in the Truth vs Truth For Me argument.

That said, the only bit I want to touch on is Blackadar's comment:



I continue to argue that it is okay. It's fundamental to belief as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, it *isn't* okay to declare it out loud, especially in a way that is hurtful or disrespectful to the person who believes otherwise. Because really, the difference between "I think you're wrong" and "you're wrong" is a social semantic game we play to keep from causing offense. Even when we say "I think you're wrong", what we're saying inside our head is "nope, you're just wrong". Don't misunderstand, this is a useful social game, because it keeps us from going at one another hammer and tong (literally, I mean), but it's still a game.

In some ways, that's true - it is a social game.

I'm a more logical/scientific person, so even though what I believe may be entirely FACT to me, it still cannot be logically or scientifically proven. Therefore, there's no way for me to say "you're wrong" because there's no way for me to prove that I'm right. Because when I say "I'm right", the onus is on me to prove that - and it's unprovable. Therefore, I have to say "I think I'm right".

Is it a social distinction? You betcha - and as you said, one that is useful and respectful of others.

But since I also believe there are multiple paths to achieve the same end, I can truly say to someone that I think I'm right - and so are they.

[Telle]

The difference between "I think you're wrong" and "You're wrong" is that in the first case you're expressing the fact that you respect the right of the person to believe otherwise. It may just be a social construct, but it's a damn important one if you ask me.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

And I have no problem with what you've said or how you've said it thus far.

I just get irate when ths so-called "religous right" thinks they can claim soveriegnty over what is "right and above mockery"

Every religion is the same, it helps those who belive to feel safe, secure and comforted when they are in spiritual tuermoil. When st.cronin steps all over one religion because he believes in another, he simply become an ignorant bigot.

can I say IGNORANT BIGOT one more time?

I can: Ignorant BIGOT.

thank you, nothing more to see here, please move along.

Well, I'm not a conservative (although in this town I probably lean more right). I have voted for Dukakis, Clinton, Perot, Gore, and Bush.

And every religion is NOT the same. Even agnostics who study the issue realize, for example, that there's never been a genocide or a war started by a Buddhist army - but one of the first things that happened after the founding of Islam was an army raised and a city massacred. Do you really think those two religions are EQUAL?

But even if we disagree on that point, I'm being skewered for making a *joke*. I wasn't challenging anyone's right to practice any religion; I agree with everyone calling the Judge in the story an ass; I made a joke, was skewered, and stood up for my right to make a joke. I think even wiccans will tell you that the worst thing about being a wiccan is all the jokes.

It's not like I was the only one making a joke, either.

[Drake]

I agree that it is an important social construct. I also think the failure of that social construct is at the core of our current partisan political wrangling in ths country. Somehow we've gotten ourselves wedged into this corner where people who believe different things don't feel like it's safe politically to tolerate the views of their opponents because they're afraid that their toleration is going to be mistaken for support. And that's a shame.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

But even if we disagree on that point, I'm being skewered for making a *joke*. I wasn't challenging anyone's right to practice any religion; I agree with everyone calling the Judge in the story an ass; I made a joke, was skewered, and stood up for my right to make a joke. I think even wiccans will tell you that the worst thing about being a wiccan is all the jokes.

It's not like I was the only one making a joke, either.

Your initial comment was insulting and as far as I'm concerned a VERY personal attack on those who believe in Wicca.

You're the one asking to stop the personal attacks, perhaps you ought to start by not making assinine comments that cross the line between joke and being a prick?

[st.cronin]

The other jokes weren't insulting? Was it because of who made those jokes?

[RendeR]

no, if Blacky or Skydog or anyone else had said what you did I would be equally as pissed off, and probably a lot MORE vocal in my response as I know their styles better.

How about this, simply offer up an apology, a sincere one, for making an ignorant and distasteful statement about a group of people you know nothing about?

that would satisfy my ire at this point.

Until then yer just another piece of useless flotsam hanging on around here to troll and belittle others.

[st.cronin]

It was not my intention to insult *anybody*. I've seen much harsher comments about all sorts of things go on here, and if I crossed a line, I apologize (again).

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

It was not my intention to insult *anybody*. I've seen much harsher comments about all sorts of things go on here, and if I crossed a line, I apologize (again).

Thank you, for both the sincerity and promptness. It is much appreciated.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Hey. If any of you are looking for any last-minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I'd like Glengoyne, right here tonight. I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorent, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is. Hallelujah. Holy shit.

Where's the Tylenol?

tsk tsk tsk, somebody's not playing well with others

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Your initial comment was insulting and as far as I'm concerned a VERY personal attack on those who believe in Wicca.

You're the one asking to stop the personal attacks, perhaps you ought to start by not making assinine comments that cross the line between joke and being a prick?

Take two aspirin and say a prayer to Stevie Nicks, it will calm you.

[Drake]

You're not helping.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

tsk tsk tsk, somebody's not playing well with others

Yes, we know that you're too young to get references to National Lampoons' Christmas Vacation.

[Pacersfan46]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Please forgive me for not believing that all worldviews are equally worthy of my respect. Perhaps I need to be clearer - faith-healing (which is essentially what wiccan is - using 'magic' to alter physical laws) is a concept quite worthy of mockery, whether it be dressed up in witches gear, shamanistic buddhism, or christianity.

As someone who has actually been healed by nothing but praying along with a healer, I can say your mockery is quite ignorant of what can happen. Are there phonies? Of course.

Yet, I was 10 years old, and I had a terrible ulcer. I was vomiting regularly, and was taking what's now known as medicine for "acid reflux disease". Which I'd really like to rant about the pharmascetucal industry and their labeling of things as "disease" so they can have a monopoly on the treatment .. but I'll leave that for another day.

Regardless, I prayed along with this healer, I swear to you not longer than 30 seconds later I felt an intense heat rush. Strangest thing I've ever felt. Not long after it happened, he said if I had an intense heat rush, or cold chill .. I was healed by god. Which I questioned at the time, but refused to keep taking my medicine. To the point, I've never had a problem again.

I try to thank god everyday for what happened. I was miserable with stomach pains, and vomiting regularly.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Yes, we know that you're too young to get references to National Lampoons' Christmas Vacation.

Not at all, from your previous description of yourself I can actually picture you as cousin Eddie.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Not at all, from your previous description of yourself I can actually picture you as cousin Eddie.

"He's cute, ain't he? Only problem is, he's got a little bit of Mississippi leg hound in him. If the mood catches him right, he'll grab your leg, and just go to town. You don't want him around if you're wearing short pants if you know what I mean. A word of warning though: If he does lay into you, it's best to just let him finish."

[Greyroofoo]

i myself went to a private elementary school and i found myself to have been taught better than those who went to a public school.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

"He's cute, ain't he? Only problem is, he's got a little bit of Mississippi leg hound in him. If the mood catches him right, he'll grab your leg, and just go to town. You don't want him around if you're wearing short pants if you know what I mean. A word of warning though: If he does lay into you, it's best to just let him finish."

The only problem is, though, he stole that whole 'crush-the-beer-can-on-the-head" thing from John Belushi. The original is always better!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

i myself went to a private elementary school and i found myself to have been taught better than those who went to a public school.

This "Leave no child behind" thing is actually causing some real problems to learning in some school districts. Smart kids are getting less attention, less challenge and are getting bored as the slower-paced kids get more attention. The smarter kids have to wait for the slower ones to catch up. This could easily be solved by grouping the faster-paced and slower-paced kids together, but that would be "politically incorrect' as the slower-paced kids could start to suffer from 'lower self-esteem' issues. It will soon get to the point that if you want a real, quality education you will have no choice but to go private school. This has been a real disaster from Bush, IMO.