Tell us how you really feel Tim Hardaway!

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Look. I know you say having a gay would change life in a front line company. Agreed. Some soldiers may very well feel like that. But it is historical fact that the same thing happened with black soldiers. But the military didn't think that was a big enough reason not to have black soldiers several decades ago. For the same reason, the military should reject the same argument regarding gay soldiers.

As for professional sports and the military. There is one big difference that makes the comparison you make inconsequential. One involves life or death. The other involves millionaires playing a game.

Finally, you keep saying the one "different" person needs to change. Again, I ask, does this mean the black person paints himself white, the gay person starts having intercourse with the opposite sex, or the christian disavows his religion and becomes a scientologist?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Look. I know you say having a gay would change life in a front line company. Agreed. Some soldiers may very well feel like that. But it is historical fact that the same thing happened with black soldiers. But the military didn't think that was a big enough reason not to have black soldiers several decades ago. For the same reason, the military should reject the same argument regarding gay soldiers.

In the total history of the United States from the Independance War to today, blacks have been in the military. True, they may be been segregated into their own units, but they were already there, and white soldiers had already fought side by side with them in several wars. It was MUCH easier to intregrate them simply because they were always there. Gay soliders are a completely different thing altogether. Why devote the time and effort and resources for a small minority when they could just as easily be in the military without their sexual orientation being an issue. Why? So a select few can proclaim their homosexuality? How does this benefit the military? It doesn't.

A black person can't hide their skin color. A gay person has the choice to make their orientation a public issue.

As for professional sports and the military. There is one big difference that makes the comparison you make inconsequential. One involves life or death. The other involves millionaires playing a game.

Don't make a bit of difference in the examples I'm saying. Both have similar ideas at their core. How much money they make is the inconsequential part.

Finally, you keep saying the one "different" person needs to change. Again, I ask, does this mean the black person paints himself white, the gay person starts having intercourse with the opposite sex, or the christian disavows his religion and becomes a scientologist?

The gay person doesn't need to say he's gay. The Christian doesn't need to make his religion an issue and so public. Both can be in the military if they keep their personal lives to themselves.

[cthomer5000]

I'm embarassed to be human sometimes. And it's people in this thread as much as much as Tim Hardaway.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

So WVU, if the gay person simply lets out that's he's gay to his fellow soldiers and teammates during one conversation that was about going looking for girls later on and never made it an issue, then from what you've said I understand then you are ok with it. My guess is: no you wouldn't be because to you just saying your'e gay is making it an issue. But I bet you feel differently about someone simply saying they were christian was making it an issue. And I would guess that's because you're a christian and not gay?

I'm not sure anyone here was in championing the cause of gays "proclaiming" their orientation or making it "public" or making it an "issue." The dialogue was centered around the simple knowledge by a fellow soldier or teammate and their feelings on it a la Tim Hardaway. But of course, you have thrown those terms out as a red herring and to subletly change the course of the conversation.

And that's my final word. I'm with you cth. I only post in these threads, not to change the minds of those I'm debating, but to ensure the opposing view is adequately represented in the hopes that those who are on the fence just watching will think differently. Help the world one person at a time every now and then you could call it.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Check what I wrote. I never said he wasn't a bigot. He is. I'm just saying that the people condemning him are bigots as well.

Wait, so if I say Tim Hardaway is a bigot then I am one too? Ok I guess I am a bigot.

I also see nothing wrong with what he said. He expressed his opinion. That was it. He didn't say that he wanted to castrate gays or kill them.

Oh my God, come on. Ok let's change it from gay to black and Tim Hardaway is a white guy and see how it sounds. Imagine if he had said:

"I hate blacks, I am a racist, they shouldn't be in the world or in the United States"

You're telling me that is ok? Because what Hardaway said amounts to the same thing.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Wait, so if I say Tim Hardaway is a bigot then I am one too? Ok I guess I am a bigot.

Check the rest of the thread on the definition of a bigot.

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Oh my God, come on. Ok let's change it from gay to black and Tim Hardaway is a white guy and see how it sounds. Imagine if he had said:

"I hate blacks, I am a racist, they shouldn't be in the world or in the United States"

You're telling me that is ok? Because what Hardaway said amounts to the same thing.

Nope. If he said he hated Blacks, I would not condone that. Check the rest of the thread on my feelings on choice vs. genetics. I believe it is a choice. Based upon that, I believe that there is a huge difference between a person who makes a choice (gay) and someone who is born a certain way (Black).

Now, what if he had said:

"I hate child molesters, I am a , they shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."

Is that ok?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Oh my God, come on. Ok let's change it from gay to black and Tim Hardaway is a white guy and see how it sounds. Imagine if he had said:

"I hate blacks, I am a racist, they shouldn't be in the world or in the United States"

You're telling me that is ok? Because what Hardaway said amounts to the same thing.

OK, so what if it had happened that way? We find out that some white guy hates all black people, and that's it. I understand that the backlash would be bigger, but if that's his opinion, he's welcome to say it. There are consequences either way, and if someone's willing to accept the consequences for hating gays or hating blacks or hating Christians or anyone else, they've just brought it upon themselves.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Tim Hardaway speaking his mind. He feels that way, and he didn't try to hide it. If anyone suffers for that, it'll be Tim Hardaway, not you or me or all the gay people he hates. Yeah, I do think it's OK for Tim Hardaway to say it, as long as he's speaking only for himself.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Check the rest of the thread on the definition of a bigot.


Nope. If he said he hated Blacks, I would not condone that. Check the rest of the thread on my feelings on choice vs. genetics. I believe it is a choice. Based upon that, I believe that there is a huge difference between a person who makes a choice (gay) and someone who is born a certain way (Black).

Now, what if he had said:

"I hate child molesters, I am a , they shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."

Is that ok?

If somone says they hate Jews, they are a bigot. If someone says they hate Christians, they are a bigot. But you decided not to compare gays to other "choices," like religions (even though there is substantial evidence that being gay is not a choice at all). No, instead of comparing gays to choices that you might respect, you feel gays are best compared to child molestors, animal rapists, and necrophiliacs. You see nothing wrong with what Hardaway said. And if you "hate" gays too, then you too are a bigot.

[TroyF]

The fact of the matter is, it's already working WVU. The military people just aren't aware of it because of idiocy and closed mindedness. There are gays in all walks of life and if the military thinks they are the exception, they are morons.

You really, really need to study the history of blacks in the military. Look at the struggles they went through and how difficult it was to integrate. This was still going on in Vietnam. Somehow, it's worked out.

And so would gays.

As for 49 guys acting one way and 1 guy being different so the 1 guy has to change comment, that's moronic. If the 1 different guy covers your ass in a firefight, is a good soldier and believes in the cause he's fighting for, the company will be just fine.

Poll a unit on 50 hot button topics. Marriage, premarital sex, abortion, torture, etc. and you'll find that they are a composite of society. They believe in different things. They have different dreams and goals.

This attitude that if we somehow sprinkled a gay guy in each unit, that our military would come to a standstill and we'd be rendered helpless is beyond ridiculous.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by John Galt

If somone says they hate Jews, they are a bigot. If someone says they hate Christians, they are a bigot. But you decided not to compare gays to other "choices," like religions (even though there is substantial evidence that being gay is not a choice at all). No, instead of comparing gays to choices that you might respect, you feel gays are best compared to child molestors, animal rapists, and necrophiliacs. You see nothing wrong with what Hardaway said. And if you "hate" gays too, then you too are a bigot.

In looking back at it, I don't think that I wrote what I meant properly.

Yes, I am a bigot. I admitted that earlier. Please see the example I gave about the 14 year old girl and the 38 year old man who profess their love for one another. Is that any more wrong than being gay? What about a brother a sister who want to get married but don't want any kids? Is that more wrong than being gay? Both of those examples are taboo and against the law....but remember that being gay was taboo and against the law as well (Isn't sodomy still a crime in some states?).

I think that everyone believes that certain lines shouldn't be crossed. Where they draw that line is different.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

OK, so what if it had happened that way? We find out that some white guy hates all black people, and that's it. I understand that the backlash would be bigger, but if that's his opinion, he's welcome to say it. There are consequences either way, and if someone's willing to accept the consequences for hating gays or hating blacks or hating Christians or anyone else, they've just brought it upon themselves.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Tim Hardaway speaking his mind. He feels that way, and he didn't try to hide it. If anyone suffers for that, it'll be Tim Hardaway, not you or me or all the gay people he hates. Yeah, I do think it's OK for Tim Hardaway to say it, as long as he's speaking only for himself.

I see your point that it is not hurting you or I Pumpy but I think that saying that IS hurtful in a way to the group of people that he is hating on. If I am a celebrity of some sort and come out and say that I hate blacks, jews, gays, whatever then it DOES hurt them don't you think? Not physically, not financially but if I am Jewish let's say and some public figure says I hate Jews and they shouldn't be part of the world then your damn right that hurts me.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

I see your point that it is not hurting you or I Pumpy but I think that saying that IS hurtful in a way to the group of people that he is hating on. If I am a celebrity of some sort and come out and say that I hate blacks, jews, gays, whatever then it DOES hurt them don't you think? Not physically, not financially but if I am Jewish let's say and some public figure says I hate Jews and they shouldn't be part of the world then your damn right that hurts me.

I hope this doesn't sound like it's belittling your point -- that's not my intention -- but why would some public figure's opinion matter to you or anyone else? If an athlete or an actor or even a politician said "I hate blacks and they shouldn't be a part of the world", I don't think he'd come over to my house and try to kill me. Heck, it's more likely that some black guy would go over to his house and kill him for saying it. It's the person who made their bigoty public who could face the most severe consequences.

I recognize that I didn't clearly state what I meant before. I do understand that it would hurt to hear somebody say that they hate you, even if they say it indirectly. Ultimately, though, it's unlikely that it would really have any bearing on your life personally.

I suppose my question is: At the end of the day, how much does it really matter what Tim Hardaway thinks? He's not the leader of a militia, he's not an influential figure who's going to change people's minds, he's not a spokesperson... he's just some guy who used to play pro basketball. I'm not trying to address the content of his message. It's just that I don't see any reason that he shouldn't say it (again, as long as he's speaking only for himself).

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The fact of the matter is, it's already working WVU. The military people just aren't aware of it because of idiocy and closed mindedness. There are gays in all walks of life and if the military thinks they are the exception, they are morons.

Interestingly, the rate of dismissals due to homosexuality has actually declined quite a bit since the Iraq war started. While they are still happening, with recruitment and retention being a really big issue these days, commanders on the ground are often very willing to look the other way with regards to sexual orientation, if it means getting to retain someone competent.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Interestingly, the rate of dismissals due to homosexuality has actually declined quite a bit since the Iraq war started. While they are still happening, with recruitment and retention being a really big issue these days, commanders on the ground are often very willing to look the other way with regards to sexual orientation, if it means getting to retain someone competent.

Not shocking in the least.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Pumpy, then you were fine with Michael Richards' speaking his mind?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Pumpy, then you were fine with Michael Richards' speaking his mind?

I'm fine with any of these guys speaking their mind. They can say whatever the hell they want. Now, what happens after they say it? I can also say whatever I want.

Timmy H. can say he hates gay people all he wants. it's his right. And Stern can choose not to have him affiliated with the NBA. Consequences suck sometimes.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Timmy H. can say he hates gay people all he wants. it's his right. And Stern can choose not to have him affiliated with the NBA. Consequences suck sometimes.

I love how people spout off about how important freedom of speech is, until they hear speech they don't approve of.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

I love how people spout off about how important freedom of speech is, until they hear speech they don't approve of.

You seem to have absolutely no concept of what "freedom of speech" is under American law.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

I love how people spout off about how important freedom of speech is, until they hear speech they don't approve of.

Oh good, we haven't had this argument in at least a couple of weeks.

Freedom of Speech = freedom from political/governmental repercussions.
Freedom of Speech != freedom from private repercussions.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

I love how people spout off about how important freedom of speech is, until they hear speech they don't approve of.

wait, I missed where hardaway was arrested

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

I love how people spout off about how important freedom of speech is, until they hear speech they don't approve of.

I don't think that is his point though. We have freedom of speech, but just because the government can't restrict it doesn't mean we are immune from the consequences that the marketplace (literal and figurative) imposes on us as a result.

[rkmsuf]

Loved the Hardaway apology. Very well written.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I don't think that is his point though. We have freedom of speech, but just because the government can't restrict it doesn't mean we are immune from the consequences that the marketplace (literal and figurative) imposes on us as a result.

Wouldn't the same apply to those who choose to publically come out as gays? Wouldn't the same logic you just applied to Hardaway's speech apply to them as well?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Wouldn't the same apply to those who choose to publically come out as gays? Wouldn't the same logic you just applied to Hardaway's speech apply to them as well?

Yes, that is just how the marketplace works. That is why many gay athletes were very deliberate in their decision-making on whether to come out or not. Many have decided not to take the risk, based on the potential consequences.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Yes, that is just how the marketplace works. That is why many gay athletes were very deliberate in their decision-making on whether to come out or not. Many have decided not to take the risk, based on the potential consequences.

So by that logic, gays who choose to come out publically do so with the knowledge that it makes them ineligible for the military. They make the CHOICE to do so, knowing the consequences.

Same goes for professional sports. They choose to come out knowing the effect it might have on the team. They must accept the consequences, up to and including being eliminated from that team, for that choice.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

So by that logic, gays who choose to come out publically do so with the knowledge that it makes them ineligible for the military. They make the CHOICE to do so, knowing the consequences.

Same goes for professional sports. They choose to come out knowing the effect it might have on the team. They must accept the consequences, up to and including being eliminated from that team, for that choice.

Yes, of course it is a cost-benefit. But I would argue, that due to the reality of attitudinal shifts in general society, it is becoming less riskier for gays to come out. As the Iraq example shows, declaring your sexual orientation is not necessarily going to get you the boot--especially if you are talented at what you do.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

So by that logic, gays who choose to come out publically do so with the knowledge that it makes them ineligible for the military. They make the CHOICE to do so, knowing the consequences.

Aside from the fact that military is a part of the government... or did you not realize that? One thing for a private actor to sting back, but the government is another thing entirely. Freedom of speech is a right against the government, after all.

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I'm embarassed to be human sometimes. And it's people in this thread as much as much as Tim Hardaway.

Ditto.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Aside from the fact that military is a part of the government... or did you not realize that? One thing for a private actor to sting back, but the government is another thing entirely. Freedom of speech is a right against the government, after all.

And when you join the military, you give up some fundamental civil rights ... or did you not realize that? One of the rights you give up is freedom of speech.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The fact of the matter is, it's already working WVU. The military people just aren't aware of it because of idiocy and closed mindedness. There are gays in all walks of life and if the military thinks they are the exception, they are morons.

You really, really need to study the history of blacks in the military. Look at the struggles they went through and how difficult it was to integrate. This was still going on in Vietnam. Somehow, it's worked out.

And so would gays.

As for 49 guys acting one way and 1 guy being different so the 1 guy has to change comment, that's moronic. If the 1 different guy covers your ass in a firefight, is a good soldier and believes in the cause he's fighting for, the company will be just fine.

Poll a unit on 50 hot button topics. Marriage, premarital sex, abortion, torture, etc. and you'll find that they are a composite of society. They believe in different things. They have different dreams and goals.

This attitude that if we somehow sprinkled a gay guy in each unit, that our military would come to a standstill and we'd be rendered helpless is beyond ridiculous.

Seriously. Since 2001, over 200 Arab speakers have been kicked out of a military desperate for them because they're gay. The Daily Show profiled one of these. When your life is on the line, is wondering who the guy next to you wants to fuck your primary concern?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

So by that logic, gays who choose to come out publically do so with the knowledge that it makes them ineligible for the military. They make the CHOICE to do so, knowing the consequences.

Same goes for professional sports. They choose to come out knowing the effect it might have on the team. They must accept the consequences, up to and including being eliminated from that team, for that choice.

PUBLIC != PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

And when you join the military, you give up some fundamental civil rights ... or did you not realize that? One of the rights you give up is freedom of speech.

Only because the CIVILIAN government told you to on this issue. "Don't ask , don't tell" wasn't initiated by the military.

Btw, can you discharged from the military because your superior officer finds out you are a Catholic because of the cross you wear? Why not? Isn't freedom of speech given up when you join the military?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Only because the CIVILIAN government told you to on this issue. "Don't ask , don't tell" wasn't initiated by the military.

Btw, can you discharged from the military because your superior officer finds out you are a Catholic because of the cross you wear? Why not? Isn't freedom of speech given up when you join the military?

If being a Catholic was chargable under the UCMJ, absolutely. But it's not. If it was, and I CHOSE to wear a cross outing me as a Catholic instead of keeping it to myself, I deserve to be discharged.

And, please, don't equate being a Catholic to being a gay in terms of unit cohesion. I can provide link after link after link of top military minds quoting that outed gays in the military would cause unit breakdown. I suppose they don't know anything about how a military works. I suppose they're all bigots. Riight.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

If being a Catholic was chargable under the UCMJ, absolutely. But it's not.

And, please, don't equate being a Catholic to being a gay in terms of unit cohesion. I can provide link after link after link of top military minds quoting that outed gays in the military would cause unit breakdown. I suppose they don't know anything about how a military works. I suppose they're all bigots. Riight.

Would you like me to provide the same quotes about Blacks in the military? Did they not know anything about an army worked back then?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Would you like me to provide the same quotes about Blacks in the military? Did they not know anything about an army worked back then?

Absolutely. Go right ahead. Find me links for military personnel that believed blacks should not be in the military.

EDIT: before you find quotes about black integration into white units, it's not the same thing. Find me quotes that state they shouldn't be in the military AT ALL.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Absolutely. Go right ahead. Find me links for military personnel that believed blacks should not be in the military.

EDIT: before you find quotes about black integration into white units, it's not the same thing. Find me quotes that state they shouldn't be in the military AT ALL.

Why? Are you okay with all-gay units then, as long as they're segregated? Seriously?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Why? Are you okay with all-gay units then, as long as they're segregated? Seriously?

I am absolutely ok with gay-segregated units. As a matter of fact, it might be a good first step in integrating the into regular units.

[bbgunn]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

"He was who I thought he was!"

This made me spit out my coffee when I saw it.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Pumpy, then you were fine with Michael Richards' speaking his mind?

Sure, why wouldn't I be? Michael Richards means absolutely nothing to me. He didn't mean anything to me before his outburst, and he doesn't mean anything to me now. I don't like the content of his outburst, but hey, I don't care if he says it. It doesn't affect me.

I guess I'm just too self-involved or something, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the bigoted views of some guy. He could've said that he brutally tortured and murdered his mother just because he didn't like her pancakes, and while that's repulsive, he's the one who'd have to deal with the backlash. Not me. He can say whatever he wants.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

And, please, don't equate being a Catholic to being a gay in terms of unit cohesion. I can provide link after link after link of top military minds quoting that outed gays in the military would cause unit breakdown. I suppose they don't know anything about how a military works. I suppose they're all bigots. Riight.

You said you have no problems with gay segregated units. So why would these 'military minds' have a problem with gays even being in the military at all? They had a problem with blacks in the same units with whites because it may cause unit breakdown (and they thought that blacks couldn't fight as well). So what's the difference?

And btw, yes, I think there is a ton of bigotry behind the 'unit breakdown' bullshit. Just as there was in the blacks can't fight as well as whites BS. Unfortunately it took someone like Truman, who wasn't scared of the assholes, to integrate the military and show them that blacks were just as good as whites when it came to being soldiers and integrated units didn't suffer from the experience.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Why? Are you okay with all-gay units then, as long as they're segregated? Seriously?

I smell sitcom.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

For what it's worth, Tim Hardaway's comments actually made the national news up in Canada. It warranted about a 3-4 minute story that started out with archival footage of Jackie Robinson and described Hardaway's comments as an "angry outburst."

That's cuz Canada is full of sissies!

[cougarfreak]

Gays are no more a minority than nerds, jocks, transvestites, red heads, obese people, etc. I don't have a problem with what Hardaway said, just like I don't have a problem with the NBA firing him. It's his choice to express his opinion, so he pays the consequences of an overboard politically correct society.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

If that's the way to take it, why shouldn't O.J gain financially from his story?

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps the fact that O.J. lost a civil suit that he has not paid the judgment on. I'd say that does make the situation a little different and significantly more complicated than you make it seem.

[Marathoner]

Nice to see he learned tolerance at UTEP.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Gays are no more a minority than nerds, jocks, transvestites, red heads, obese people, etc. I don't have a problem with what Hardaway said, just like I don't have a problem with the NBA firing him. It's his choice to express his opinion, so he pays the consequences of an overboard politically correct society.

No, seriously, this really has jumped the shark.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Gays are no more a minority than nerds, jocks, transvestites, red heads, obese people, etc. I don't have a problem with what Hardaway said, just like I don't have a problem with the NBA firing him. It's his choice to express his opinion, so he pays the consequences of an overboard politically correct society.

Or Jews or Blacks? And if you think it is "overboardly politically correct" to stop public figures from going around saying that they hate either one of those minorities and that they wished that there was none of them in the US or the world, given the history of what has actually happened, then I think we have a problem.

For the people arguing the gay vs child molester angle, do you honestly see no difference between the two. Yes being gay may be a "choice" (my personal view actually) but being gay is a) legal in almost every single Western civilization and b) there is the whole issue of consent.

Who gives a shit what adults do as long as it's consentual. Seems like from the Christian angle pre-marital and extra-marital sex is just as condemned by the Bible, but nobody is going to call out or refuse to work with a guy who gets laid a couple of times a night in Vegas while his wife and kids are back home. If you think a gay guy is going to fondle you in the shower or give you gay disease by being in close contact then you really need to grow up. Hopefully in 20 or 30 years we will all be mature enough to get over it and move on.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Or Jews or Blacks? And if you think it is "overboardly politically correct" to stop public figures from going around saying that they hate either one of those minorities and that they wished that there was none of them in the US or the world, given the history of what has actually happened, then I think we have a problem.

For the people arguing the gay vs child molester angle, do you honestly see no difference between the two. Yes being gay may be a "choice" (my personal view actually) but being gay is a) legal in almost every single Western civilization and b) there is the whole issue of consent.

Who gives a shit what adults do as long as it's consentual. Seems like from the Christian angle pre-marital and extra-marital sex is just as condemned by the Bible, but nobody is going to call out or refuse to work with a guy who gets laid a couple of times a night in Vegas while his wife and kids are back home. If you think a gay guy is going to fondle you in the shower or give you gay disease by being in close contact then you really need to grow up. Hopefully in 20 or 30 years we will all be mature enough to get over it and move on.

Your words, not mine. You are making gay people out to be different. I'm not. And who the hell makes Tim Hardaway a "public figure"?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Gays are no more a minority than nerds, jocks, transvestites, red heads, obese people, etc. I don't have a problem with what Hardaway said, just like I don't have a problem with the NBA firing him. It's his choice to express his opinion, so he pays the consequences of an overboard politically correct society.

What the fuck? Are you out of central casting for a homophobe or what?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

[...] who the hell makes Tim Hardaway a "public figure"?

Well, he was a star in college and in the NBA for many years. I think that's enough to make him a public figure right there.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

What the fuck? Are you out of central casting for a homophobe or what?

No. I'm someone who thinks gays don't deserve a minority status. Because I don't think of them as "different". Just because some people show a disdain towards the lifestyle, the choice or what have you, doesn't mean they should be a "minority" in my book. I never said I supported Hardaway's opinion. I said I didn't have problem with the fact he said it. That's his opinion. And he paid the price for saying it.