1972 Off-season Thread (Pre-Draft file is up!)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by graygoose12

Correct me if I am wrong, but prospects are not compared to other players in the league.

Yeah even prospects are compared to other players in the league at their position (or a league average so to speak). You can see how this works pretty easily. if you take say a 1B or Outfield prospect and move their position to a different position that generally has much less offense available such as SS, you should see their potential increase as suddenly they are a much better offensive prospect.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Yeah even prospects are compared to other players in the league at their position (or a league average so to speak). You can see how this works pretty easily. if you take say a 1B or Outfield prospect and move their position to a different position that generally has much less offense available such as SS, you should see their potential increase as suddenly they are a much better offensive prospect.

Really? Strange. I have no idea how I never knew that. I mean, it makes sense since that's how stars are supposed to work, I guess, but...it just makes the irrationality of them that much...stranger.

But I do know the game doesn't generate them based on looking at what's already in the league. The creation modifiers determine that.

[Young Drachma]

File is up. Draft and spring training are tomorrow.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Yeah, I don't know anything about the game generating players based on anything other than the settings the way you have them in-game. I did a ton of research on it and decided that it would always be that way unless we made some changes and even then, the players coming out were still crap. I feel like if we're gonna have a 15-round draft, there ought to be value early on or else, there is simply no point in having one.

So I'm with you. OOTP's draft system isn't that sophisticated. The potential stars are based solely on player ability and ratings, not relative talent to the rest of the league's players. That's what gold stars do.

That is not correct. The star ratings are in fact compared to other players at that position. You can even test this yourself by changing the position on some of your prospects as I mentioned in my previous post. So when you see 2 star prospects, in a normal league they might be an actual 3 or 4 star prospect.

It is hard to say if this was a really weak draft class or not because our league is so talent heavy already that we'll likely never know or not for a very long time. I've seen draft classes come good and bad over multiple seasons.

To be fair, I do feel the default draft class from OOTP9 seems to be a bit weak than past versions of the game and what I would expect based on real life baseball.. but clearly everyone has to admit last year's class was beyond ridiculous and the bigger issue to what is happening with potential ratings.

Just trying to help set some perspective to why a draft class may look worse than it actually is.. It just isn't really realistic to have 50 Manny Ramirez or Josh Beckett types every draft is all.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Really? Strange. I have no idea how I never knew that. I mean, it makes sense since that's how stars are supposed to work, I guess, but...it just makes the irrationality of them that much...stranger.

But I do know the game doesn't generate them based on looking at what's already in the league. The creation modifiers determine that.

I wasn't trying to say the draft generated them based on what was in the league. What I was saying is your perception of the draft list is skewed because you have no realistic way of really comparing them as the game is trying to compare them to the rest of the league which is crazy.

So what may normally be a solid 4 star prospect in most drafts that should end up being a pretty decent major league player some day and even a possible all star in our league might come out as a 2 star prospect that won't ever see the majors because he just can't stand up to the 15 hall of fame Outfielders already in the league.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I wasn't trying to say the draft generated them based on what was in the league. What I was saying is your perception of the draft list is skewed because you have no realistic way of really comparing them as the game is trying to compare them to the rest of the league which is crazy.

So what may normally be a solid 4 star prospect in most drafts that should end up being a pretty decent major league player some day and even a possible all star in our league might come out as a 2 star prospect that won't ever see the majors because he just can't stand up to the 15 hall of fame Outfielders already in the league.

I understand what you're saying now, especially the "perception" thing.

But I'm just responding a lot to what I hear the complaints to be, so I try to address them. I think I just need to ignore everything everyone says and that'll make it all better.

[Alan T]

I was re-reading through my posts and figured I should make sure no one gets me wrong. I'm not really pushing hard for change this time. The league is what it is, and we have to just learn to adapt to it as it is. That is my biggest complaint of constant change for other things is it makes it really hard to adapt to what the league is giving you.

I have run ootp test leagues in ootp9 where the "all star" level of talent was in the 50s or 60s ratings, and had to get accustomed to that.. likewise I have to learn in this league that any player that doesn't have multiple "blue" ratings likely isn't that good of a player in this league. Basically the normal player in this league has to have a 80+ ratings in most things or they will have serious holes in their game.

I simply was trying to explain earlier why you are seeing the low stars to some point for the AI generated draft pool. It is generating a normal draft pool and not a souped up FOOL type draft pool is all. (and as I said before, ootp9 tends to have a bit weaker draft pool than normal anyhows. This just makes it exponentially worse)

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I was re-reading through my posts and figured I should make sure no one gets me wrong. I'm not really pushing hard for change this time. The league is what it is, and we have to just learn to adapt to it as it is. That is my biggest complaint of constant change for other things is it makes it really hard to adapt to what the league is giving you.

I have run ootp test leagues in ootp9 where the "all star" level of talent was in the 50s or 60s ratings, and had to get accustomed to that.. likewise I have to learn in this league that any player that doesn't have multiple "blue" ratings likely isn't that good of a player in this league. Basically the normal player in this league has to have a 80+ ratings in most things or they will have serious holes in their game.

I simply was trying to explain earlier why you are seeing the low stars to some point for the AI generated draft pool. It is generating a normal draft pool and not a souped up FOOL type draft pool is all. (and as I said before, ootp9 tends to have a bit weaker draft pool than normal anyhows. This just makes it exponentially worse)

The adjusting perspectives thing has been the hardest thing for ME to keep up with, but it started from the first season and it's "always kinda been that way" and so, it's bene hard to keep up.

You make a very good point that as the talent level were to decrease that we could start to use middle tier players and it would probably make things a lot more interesting. I just never thought much about that until you really broke it down that way, because I didn't think about how much relatively "harder" it would be for a 60/60/70 guy to compete with the Incredible Hulks that we have in the league.

So that makes sense. So if the AI generates 'average' for 'us' players over the next decade, then we can see how that'll affect strategy, etc., as opposed to what we've seen in the first decade.

It's a good discussion about "where we're headed" I think.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

This is what I mean when I say Hartford seems to always sign everyone I try to get

To be fair, a bunch of those players are Colorado AAAA rejects. Guarantee you they ain't worth the time.

(not on a contender at least...)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I tried on a few of those guys, but with limited money under the cap I couldn't get too wild and was only really hoping I would sneak one signing in there. Didn't get any, but I did get MR John Mockly from Colorado so I will be semi-happy with that.

Now there's a guy from COL who is worth something. Vega who I think went to Hartford is also good.

[Chief Rum]

Hmm, reflecting on the whole JimmyOOTP thing (sorry to dredge up the past), I agree with DC and the league consensus on how they handle the trade thing (and also on how DC handled Jimmy).

That said, the issue Jimmy raised is a potential issue for those of us who can almost only ever pull off trades right before deadline (am I the only one?). The only instance I can see where DC's policy on this is (unintentionally) prejudicial is when a team makes a trade and does not get the opportunity to take advantage of that trade (such as freed up money for free agency) in the next sim. Early trades done early in the day (an impossibility for me at least, as I am at work) or from the night before (those I can do, but I would assume I would get a new file like everyone else) can have uploaded files, but trades made before the nightly sim deadline but late enough to not receive their own file uploads do not get the same opportunity to make new offers based on free money. That is in essence an inequality in the system as it is now run.

Now, there is a practicality issue here, of course. Not every trade should require a new upload. That would be a tremendous hassle for DC, and probably not needed most times anyway. But it does present a disadvantage to owners like myself who cannot access FOFC like others can at most hours of the day. In order to get rid of this disadvantage, DC would either have to upload a new file for every trade (yeah, right) or stop doing this policy altogether of uploading new files (you make a trade, you just have to wait for the next sim to take advantage it).

It seems to me that DC, as likely as not, uploads a trade file like this at least one other time per night in the offseason (besides the sim upload, I mean). So how about this suggestion (and subject to DC's availability, of course):

Trades for a given day must be done by 9 p.m. EST that day (one hour before sim). DC gathers all trades from the previous sim (the night before) to that early deadline. No trade uploads by DC would be done prior to that 9 p.m. deadline. So if you make a trade the night before (after the sim), you have to wait to see the trade upload file before you get the results. But DC won't run a day at all at the trade sim deadline. So you get a new file with which you can make free agent or other moves that your trade makes possible.

DC then runs the regular sim at his usual deadline and uploads the file as per usual. He processes any new trades from 9 p.m. EST to the sim deadline, of course.

The advantage is that DC only has to make, at most, two uploads per offseason day (which my guess is he is already doing at least), and that's only if there are any trades in the previous three days. And it eliminates the disadvantage for those of us who can't be hear all day (this is supposed to be a casual league, after all).

The disadvantage is that muns will have to keep a notepad handy for a few hours to keep track of where he traded his players to, so he doesn't accidentally trade them twice.

[Young Drachma]

Welcome back, Chief!

In the past, I've never run trade files at any other time except within an hour or three of the original file being uploaded. It's usually at night when things are busy, etc., and while I understood his original point that it could function as a loophole, it doesn't seem that it's been done that way here, which is why I think it occurred to me to do it the first time when we had a ton of trades.

The easy way out here is simply to say that "if you trade after the file goes up, then you'll just wait until tomorrow to have your trade processed."

I only started running those trades like that because we'd have days of unusually heavy trade traffic and it seemed like a logical thing to do. But if people are concerned about "fairness" and the issue being brought up re: that is a legit one...then that's fine. Again, it was never started to be a trade loophole, just an accounting thing.

[gstelmack]

For people like me who aren't even awake when you are running the sims, having folks wait until the next sim for the trade to get processed might get them to wait a bit for other offers before agreeing to whoever happens to be awake that night...

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Hmm, reflecting on the whole JimmyOOTP thing (sorry to dredge up the past), I agree with DC and the league consensus on how they handle the trade thing (and also on how DC handled Jimmy).

That said, the issue Jimmy raised is a potential issue for those of us who can almost only ever pull off trades right before deadline (am I the only one?). The only instance I can see where DC's policy on this is (unintentionally) prejudicial is when a team makes a trade and does not get the opportunity to take advantage of that trade (such as freed up money for free agency) in the next sim. Early trades done early in the day (an impossibility for me at least, as I am at work) or from the night before (those I can do, but I would assume I would get a new file like everyone else) can have uploaded files, but trades made before the nightly sim deadline but late enough to not receive their own file uploads do not get the same opportunity to make new offers based on free money. That is in essence an inequality in the system as it is now run.

Now, there is a practicality issue here, of course. Not every trade should require a new upload. That would be a tremendous hassle for DC, and probably not needed most times anyway. But it does present a disadvantage to owners like myself who cannot access FOFC like others can at most hours of the day. In order to get rid of this disadvantage, DC would either have to upload a new file for every trade (yeah, right) or stop doing this policy altogether of uploading new files (you make a trade, you just have to wait for the next sim to take advantage it).

It seems to me that DC, as likely as not, uploads a trade file like this at least one other time per night in the offseason (besides the sim upload, I mean). So how about this suggestion (and subject to DC's availability, of course):

Trades for a given day must be done by 9 p.m. EST that day (one hour before sim). DC gathers all trades from the previous sim (the night before) to that early deadline. No trade uploads by DC would be done prior to that 9 p.m. deadline. So if you make a trade the night before (after the sim), you have to wait to see the trade upload file before you get the results. But DC won't run a day at all at the trade sim deadline. So you get a new file with which you can make free agent or other moves that your trade makes possible.

DC then runs the regular sim at his usual deadline and uploads the file as per usual. He processes any new trades from 9 p.m. EST to the sim deadline, of course.

The advantage is that DC only has to make, at most, two uploads per offseason day (which my guess is he is already doing at least), and that's only if there are any trades in the previous three days. And it eliminates the disadvantage for those of us who can't be hear all day (this is supposed to be a casual league, after all).

The disadvantage is that muns will have to keep a notepad handy for a few hours to keep track of where he traded his players to, so he doesn't accidentally trade them twice.

Call me easy going, but I don't mind it. DC and I did a trade late yesterday afternoon and I had no problem waiting for the new file even though an update would have helped me with a large chunk of cap space. I also wasn't planning on going after a high priced guy that night though either.

[Young Drachma]

Nefarious as some might fashion me, it never occurred to me to make a big trade to clear cap space AND sign free agents in the same year. But then, I've almost always run a team that was 1) way out of the race or 2) a title contender. So I've never had one big signing to make that would solve all of my problems, hence making it unlikely I'd ever do that. I'd almost always trade to 3) get rid of a player who another team wants or 4) get a guy who I view as the saviour to my problems.

We've got a savvy crop of GMs here, so...it's not likely people are gonna allow someone to deal a player to them, just to get a leg up during FA. Hence why it's not been an issue for us.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Nefarious as some might fashion me, it never occurred to me to make a big trade to clear cap space AND sign free agents in the same year. But then, I've almost always run a team that was 1) way out of the race or 2) a title contender. So I've never had one big signing to make that would solve all of my problems, hence making it unlikely I'd ever do that. I'd almost always trade to 3) get rid of a player who another team wants or 4) get a guy who I view as the saviour to my problems.

We've got a savvy crop of GMs here, so...it's not likely people are gonna allow someone to deal a player to them, just to get a leg up during FA. Hence why it's not been an issue for us.

Oh I definitely have thought about and tried to make a Free agent deal around world series time in order to free up salary cap space to re-sign one of my own free agents, so it is not too big of an extension to take it one step further for me.

I haven't really commented much about this topic though as its not a huge deal to me either way, I can live with it and can see Chief's point of view, but I figured that I shouldn't go gung ho about every single topic that comes up since it feels like I do lately

[Chief Rum]

Man, it feels like a ghost town here in the middle of the day. Or did you guys decide to hide today because I am actually around.

[Cringer]

I was gone all day today, sorry to make you feel lonely Chief.

[Chief Rum]

I'll live, Cringer. Thanks, though.

On a more serious note, could someone please check out 2B draft prospect George Stewart. GAP Potential is "-"? Huh, he doesn't have GAP potential?

[muns]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Man, it feels like a ghost town here in the middle of the day. Or did you guys decide to hide today because I am actually around.

ya sorry Chief. Its move in day at the University, and I havent been able to get to my computer basically all day.... Hoping tomorrow will be better. I could use some wind down time to talk up some "fool".

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Man, it feels like a ghost town here in the middle of the day. Or did you guys decide to hide today because I am actually around.

Middle of the day? You must be on the West Coast

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Middle of the day? You must be on the West Coast

Heh...well, I was in the middle of the day today.

Of course, since spent the previous five days in NYC, it's crazy to me how much "later" you guys are around. Not sure I would be down for 10 P.M. sim runs if I lived out there. I guess you guys are used to it, dealing with us Left Coasters.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Of course, since spent the previous five days in NYC, it's crazy to me how much "later" you guys are around. Not sure I would be down for 10 P.M. sim runs if I lived out there. I guess you guys are used to it, dealing with us Left Coasters.

I go to bed and check out the results in the morning. As I said earlier in the discussion about the post-trade sims, I usually wake up to find out about all these trades and moves. Not a biggie.

[Cringer]

I just don't sleep much half the time. Early bed is 11:30 to midnight, and waking up at 7 am. That's a good 7 hours of sleep. The 2-3 am bedtimes usually happen a few times a week though.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I just don't sleep much half the time. Early bed is 11:30 to midnight, and waking up at 7 am. That's a good 7 hours of sleep. The 2-3 am bedtimes usually happen a few times a week though.

Of course, you're in Texas, though, so you have a little more leeway.

Flew over Texas last night, BTW. A whoooooooooooollllllllllleee lotta nothing out the plane window.

[Chief Rum]

BTW, halfway done with draft list now. Still may need a few minutes post deadline, but hoping not. I am saving every step of the way. Spring training lineups are set.

[Chief Rum]

I said it before, I'll say it again:

an orangutan could have designed this draft list module without a hitch. Draw your own conclusions.

[Chief Rum]

I will need more time. Fuck you, Markus.

[Young Drachma]

So would that be an endorsement of German engineering, Chief?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

So would that be an endorsement of German engineering, Chief?

I am as supportive of this German engineering as I am of the prospect of steering my Rancheros to dead last.

[Chief Rum]

All done and exported.

[Young Drachma]

Ok, file time.