FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Shepp

Didn't even have to get past the first paragraph to see the bias in that article.

The United States of America is not for black people. We know this, and then we put it out of our minds, and then something happens to remind us. Saturday, in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Mo., something like that happened: An unarmed 18-year-old black man was executed by police in broad daylight.

I don't see anything particularly biased in that paragraph.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

No holes but I did a search for 'Chicago' and nothing came up.

Yep. Until someone fixes Chicago, every article has to be about Chicago and nothing else can be addressed.

[cuervo72]

Dola - and as long as some black people are killing other black people, eh - they're fair game for everybody!

[molson]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I don't see anything particularly biased in that paragraph.

"Executed" presumes guilt, does it not?

Your best case scenario expressed above, (police shooting someone running away) is not necessarily accurate either. That's just an expression of your own bias. Edit: I think it's the scenario a lot of people are desperately rooting for here (along with a white cop with a mustache), because the most important thing to people with that bias is fuel for that bias. Both the kid's friend's scenario and the rumored cop-friendly scenario reported by panerd above sound pretty extreme. Either could be true, something in the middle is probably more likely.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

See, this is it right here though. We have no information, but on the surface "unarmed 18yo shot at distance multiple times" doesn't look good. We have a dead black man/boy and little other information - but the first inclination for many is to side against the black kid and call the suggestion that he might be a victim (again - the dead one here) b.s.

Either that's a misguided trust in authority, or it's racism.

It's having more faith in the initial reports about the alleged victim lunging into the car than the distraught alleged eyewitnesses versions of the same incident.

Simple odds about what's a more likely scenario, as good a starting point for an initial assumption as many.

As for race, it was a delusional white unemployed truck driver who opened fire with a shotgun and killed one of most affable young officers I ever met as well as another member of the SWAT team (and wounded a third) that was trying to rescue the suspect's 73 year old mother who he was holding hostage & threatening to kill. Steve left behind a wife and two children.

It was a black man with a long criminal history who shot the finest drug enforcement officer Georgia, perhaps the entire Southeast, ever saw. One of the keenest minds I ever had the privilege to encounter, he was writing a simple traffic ticket when the drug runner panicked, walked back to the car & opened fire. Robbie also left a widow and 2 children. And I sat in Hartsfield airport awaiting a vacation flight and wept when the story appeared unexpectedly on the morning news. Covering his work as a local reporter had been nothing short of a privilege.

It was a third generation piece of ghetto trash that shot two officers here in Athens recently A respected veteran black officer recognized a vehicle to the suspect's cousin, stopped to ask if he might have seen the kidnapping & carjacking suspect, not realizing that the suspect was in the passenger seat. That officer was shot twice and would likely have been executed if not for the coincidental arrival of another officer's patrol car. The suspect then shot Buddy Christian through the window of the car, literally running to the window to fire before the officer had any idea what was happening. The husband and father of two young children died at the scene.

White cop, black cop. White criminal, black criminal. I give less than a flying fuck what color you are, those who assault police are the most dangerous of all criminals, without regard for law nor repercussions. Dangerous animals afaic, and you'll not see a tear from me when one of them is put down.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Yep. Until someone fixes Chicago, every article has to be about Chicago and nothing else can be addressed.

It all has to be addressed - from police brutality, to innocent victims, to violence in the streets. How does one pick and choose which ones to feel justifiable outrage over and which ones we don't? (I don't know.) I am still shocked by the story from a couple weeks ago of the 11 yr old getting killed by a stray bullet while she was playing with her friend. That one saddened me more than others.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by molson

"Executed" presumes guilt, does it not?

Your best case scenario expressed above, (police shooting someone running away) is not necessarily accurate either. That's just an expression of your own bias. Edit: I think it's the scenario a lot of people are desperately rooting for here (along with a white cop with a mustache), because the most important thing to people with that bias is fuel for that bias. Both the kid's friend's scenario and the rumored cop-friendly scenario reported by panerd above sound pretty extreme. Either could be true, something in the middle is probably more likely.

I don't think it's an expression of my own bias. If he was unarmed and fleeing, then I guess I do have a bias against a cop taking justice into his own hands, but I'm basing my judgement on the version of events that has come out. The police version of events at this stage hasn't negated that point. If they do, then so be it. Otherwise, the police officer executed an unarmed suspect. Regardless of what happened before that.

Maybe there's a very good reason why they haven't released more information at this stage, but assuming the police version is more or less correct, some transparency here would seem to do the world of good.

Maybe my bias too, but excluding media (to the point of no-fly-zones even) from a protest area really rubs me the wrong way. Not something I like to see in a country like the US.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Yep. Until someone fixes Chicago, every article has to be about Chicago and nothing else can be addressed.

It's about the disproportionate amount of energy being put on issues like this. If this turns out to be an over-aggressive cop shooting an innocent person, it will be a tragedy. It will bring up issues with police departments that need to be talked about (we discussed it on the last page). Nothing is wrong with that.

But there are individuals who want to turn this into an excuse for why a community is failing. That it's always the evil racist white man's fault. It's a strategy employed in those communities for decades. I think we can all see for ourselves how successful that is.

Every year a story like this gets propped up and the message is that the young black man's biggest threat is the white man. Statistically this couldn't be farther from the truth. Even if you look at incidences of homicide that involve a cop and an unharmed person it's tiny.

The biggest threat to a young black male's life is another young black male. This is a statistical fact. Until leaders in the community acknowledge this and offer up solutions, nothing will change. These communities will have their scapegoat that makes them feel better as they crumble even more.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The biggest threat to a young black male's life is another young black male. This is a statistical fact. Until leaders in the community acknowledge this and offer up solutions, nothing will change. These communities will have their scapegoat that makes them feel better as they crumble even more.

How many young black males from affluent suburbs are going around killing each other? What % of young black males are living in poverty compared with % of white males? Making it an issue about black youths or black anything misses the root of the problem IMO.

[nol]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Life is fairly simple. Don't attack a cop and go for his gun...

You don't shoot up a movie theater full of people or bomb the Boston Marathon either, but the police at least made an effort to capture the perpetrators of those acts alive.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by nol

You don't shoot up a movie theater full of people or bomb the Boston Marathon either, but the police at least made an effort to capture the perpetrators of those acts alive.

One of the guys from the Boston bombing was killed and the other wounded.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Shepp

One of the guys from the Boston bombing was killed and the other wounded.

Killed by the other bomber (following a shootout). And they could have quite easily killed the other bomber once they knew he was in the boat.

[Young Drachma]

Well this thread escalated quickly.

From the comments of that Greg Howard article at Deadspin:

Black folks have as much claim on this experiment as anyone. But the lack of ownership of our communities isn't doing anyone any favors. The tactics need to change and just raising hell and complaining for more government oversight is what got us here in the first place.

Michael Brown is a tragedy and his killer should be brought to justice. But if we're going to stop these crimes, it starts with stopping outsiders from selling our towns part and parcel, from demanding local control of schools, police forces and stores in communities. It comes from putting pressure on and creating the conditions for structural equality and making alliances with people who value our lives as much as we do and educating them.

But this whole "America is failing us and hostile to us" narrative of the black cognoscenti on twitter is getting old and getting us nowhere because employing the tactics of our grandparents in a digital world means we consistently lose the PR fight that marches, boycotts and other coordinated events won in the 50s and 60s.

It's time for new rhetoric, boldness & a commitment to something other than claiming we're powerless in this. Change will come and it'll either be on our terms or someone else's.

[cuervo72]

Well, get ready for another round:

Police Fatally Shoot Man in South L.A.; Family Members Say He Was Lying Down When Shot | KTLA

[Young Drachma]

[JediKooter]

Why in the world does New Mexico and Oklahoma have so many of those vehicles?

Population of New Mexico - 2,085,287
Population of Oklahoma - 3,850,568
Population of California - 38,340,000

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Why in the world does New Mexico and Oklahoma have so many of those vehicles?

Population of New Mexico - 2,085,287
Population of Oklahoma - 3,850,568
Population of California - 38,340,000

A little research suggests that, at least in New Mexico's case, it's because the hardware is essentially free to them through the feds 1033 program. NM agencies particularly liked the mine-resistant MRAP armored vehicles with nearly two dozen agencies acquiring them over the past few years (and at least one -- Albuquerque -- recently declaring theirs as surplus to requirements themselves).

[miked]

I don't understand why this is a black/white thing, rather than an overmilitarized police force (that is historically under average in intelligence). There are many cases of these outside the random target gun or Missouri street, like this guy shot in New Mexico wielding a knife after a bit of negotiations...

Police Shoot Homeless Man During Camping Arrest (GRAPHIC VIDEO)

or the baby who had a flash bang grenade thrown in to his crib by people looking for a meth user who in fact was not even home and never found with any drugs I believe (or arrested and held). A no knock warrant issued with no information about what was inside...

Baby in Coma After Police ‘Grenade’ Dropped in Crib During Drug Raid - ABC News

Or a recent case I believe in NC or somewhere that a kid with schizophrenia was shot wielding a screwdriver in his home with 3 officers there. It seems that police shootings are all over the place and the people who really suffer (other than the deceased and their families) are the taxpayers who end up not only footing the bill of the settlements, but get to watch as most of these police officers are put back on the street.

[RainMaker]

Wasn't some of the upgrades in part due to that North Hollywood bank robbery many years ago? The robbers had crazy weaponry and the cops were essentially helpless. I think at one point the guy just walked down the middle of the street firing wherever he wanted to and they couldn't stop him.

I feel if something happened like that happened today we'd have a lot of people complaining about the police not being prepared. Seems like a no-win situation.

That's not excusing some of the aggressive crap that's taken place (post above mentions 2 of many cases). But having police prepared to at least handle the worst case scenario isn't necessarily bad.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

I don't understand why this is a black/white thing, rather than an overmilitarized police force (that is historically under average in intelligence). There are many cases of these outside the random target gun or Missouri street, like this guy shot in New Mexico wielding a knife after a bit of negotiations...

The New Mexico shooting was completely justified. He was armed, he had a record of assaulting police. Considerable ado about nothing afaic.

The NC case is still awaiting trial best I can tell, however it was the 33rd time that police had been called to the same home since 2006 for domestic issues and there are plausible counterclaims that he was attacking the officer who fired the fatal shot. The other two have been cleared of any misconduct, procedure right down the line.

or the baby who had a flash bang grenade thrown in to his crib by people looking for a meth user who in fact was not even home and never found with any drugs I believe (or arrested and held). A no knock warrant issued with no information about what was inside...

That incident was just up the road from me (presumably you're referring to the Cornelia, GA incident). The team made an undercover drug buy at the house just a few hours before the raid, 4 people were arrested including the initial suspect -- his 10th arrest on drug & weapons charge -- he was a relative of the homeowners & was staying there.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Wasn't some of the upgrades in part due to that North Hollywood bank robbery many years ago? The robbers had crazy weaponry and the cops were essentially helpless. I think at one point the guy just walked down the middle of the street firing wherever he wanted to and they couldn't stop him.

I feel if something happened like that happened today we'd have a lot of people complaining about the police not being prepared. Seems like a no-win situation.

That's not excusing some of the aggressive crap that's taken place (post above mentions 2 of many cases). But having police prepared to at least handle the worst case scenario isn't necessarily bad.

I do agree - I guess the problem is if the acquisition of this more powerful hardware fuels the machismo of the officers and/or leads to people applying to be cops just so they can indulge their military fantasies without having to join the military, and these two things lead to them using unnecessary force so that they can play with their toys.

It's a double-edged sword and I don't pretend to have the answer.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by miked

I don't understand why this is a black/white thing, rather than an overmilitarized police force (that is historically under average in intelligence). There are many cases of these outside the random target gun or Missouri street, like this guy shot in New Mexico wielding a knife after a bit of negotiations...

Or this: Video of death at Warren Theatre released | Oklahoma City - OKC - KOCO.com

Or this: Down Syndrome Man Goes to Movies, Ends up in Morgue - ABC News

It's not only about race, but I don't think there's much question that in general police will give more respect and benefit of the doubt to whites.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Shepp

One of the guys from the Boston bombing was killed and the other wounded.

Yep, I know that part. Just checking to make sure you understand the difference between an unarmed suspect with his hands up who might have shoplifted from a gas station and suspects who, in addition to the bombing, had also murdered one police officer and engaged in a firefight with police.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A little research suggests that, at least in New Mexico's case, it's because the hardware is essentially free to them through the feds 1033 program. NM agencies particularly liked the mine-resistant MRAP armored vehicles with nearly two dozen agencies acquiring them over the past few years (and at least one -- Albuquerque -- recently declaring theirs as surplus to requirements themselves).

That makes sense. Seems like they would be cost prohibitive just in maintenance alone seeing how I'm sure those departments budgets probably aren't the biggest. I can see why Albuquerque has declared theirs surplus (which I'm taking as they don't need it anymore).

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by nol

Yep, I know that part. Just checking to make sure you understand the difference between an unarmed suspect with his hands up who might have shoplifted from a gas station and suspects who, in addition to the bombing, had also murdered one police officer and engaged in a firefight with police.

allegedly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

That makes sense. Seems like they would be cost prohibitive just in maintenance alone seeing how I'm sure those departments budgets probably aren't the biggest. I can see why Albuquerque has declared theirs surplus (which I'm taking as they don't need it anymore).

Their statement was something along the lines of "we found that we had other vehicles that were suitable for the intended purpose" or something like that.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by nol

Yep, I know that part. Just checking to make sure you understand the difference between an unarmed suspect with his hands up who might have shoplifted from a gas station and suspects who, in addition to the bombing, had also murdered one police officer and engaged in a firefight with police.

It remains to be seen if this kid is as pure and innocent as he is being portrayed.

[nol]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

allegedly.

Nope, when even Fox News is reporting that Michael Brown was unarmed at the time he was shot and killed, it's pretty unambiguous. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11...r-in-suburban/

[nol]

Originally Posted by Shepp

It remains to be seen if this kid is as pure and innocent as he is being portrayed.

Wow, you just took "you don't need to shoot and kill an unarmed suspect who is not wanted for multiple counts of murder and domestic terrorism," and twisted it into "he's pure and innocent." Thanks for playing the false equivalence game.

[chadritt]

hey....he may have smoked pot once, we dont know. That would mean he deserved what he got /s

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by nol

Nope, when even Fox News is reporting that Michael Brown was unarmed at the time he was shot and killed, it's pretty unambiguous. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11...r-in-suburban/

"Unarmed" is not the same "did not pose a threat justifying lethal force".

[molson]

Originally Posted by nol

Nope, when even Fox News is reporting that Michael Brown was unarmed at the time he was shot and killed, it's pretty unambiguous. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/11...r-in-suburban/

I think he's referring to the "hands up" thing, and I think you know that.

Or maybe there's this idea that where the police shoot and kill an unarmed man, it's automatically a murder, automatically an execution. That's not true. It certainly could be a crime, or entirely justified, or something in between.

In a discussion of these kinds of things on reddit, the top comment was an account of an officer dealing with a use-of-force decision he had to make. The facts are entirely different than the ones in the Missouri case, but I think it does a good job of trying to make the point I've tried to made in this thread - police officers are human beings, not a part of a collective single-brain entity of "the police".

People hear about an incident like this and they immediately conclude it was an "execution", that "the police" hate black people, that "the police" know exactly what happened and just aren't telling us. All of these situations are more complicated than that. Even where there is an actual crime, like in the case of that BART shooting (involuntary manslaughter, ultimately), there can be so many factors at play because critical decisions are being made in seconds by individuals, all flawed, some more flawed than others.

That doesn't excuse crimes of course (all crimes are at some level, about poor judgment). I just think it helps with the context.

The scenario described in that reddit comment is similar to fictional scenarios I've seen utilized in officer training (sometimes with the suspect having a weapon, sometime not). If you run a scenario like that with 100 officers, probably 85 handle it perfectly or with just a few mistakes, 10 get themselves "killed" or in a position to have been killed, and around 5 use a questionable amount of force that would result in at least an investigation. It seems like in real life, there aren't as many mistakes (probably because only some portion of that 100 actually become veteran officers). I've read many, many police reports where officers used much less force than they could have.

But still, there's enough police activity generally in the United States that it's easy to put together a pretty horrifying list of bad or questionable officer conduct. If you are inclined to decide that's how "the police" are, it's easy to. But couldn't you make such a list for any group? Whether it be profession, race, religion, sports fan allegiance? Some of the horrible things will be different depending on the group (I could make a huge list of teachers that molested their students, because teachers have ready access to students, as opposed to firearms and a lawful authority to use some amount of force). You're not going to get a great reaction if you express a belief that teachers are child molesters though.

There's a real parallel about how the two "sides" see each other. The one side think the police are racist, that they somehow know exactly what happened here but they're just not telling us. The other side sees a bunch of people claiming they want justice but are only looting. But there are so many individuals in those groups, so many individuals that disagree with people in their own group. If you're just inclined to dislike a group though, whether it be the police, or black people, you see them as one collective mind doing evil things.

In light of recent and abundant media coverage; what is going on with the shootings of young, unarmed [black] men/ women and what are the departments doing about it from the inside? : AskLEO

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by nol

Wow, you just took "you don't need to shoot and kill an unarmed suspect who is not wanted for multiple counts of murder and domestic terrorism," and twisted it into "he's pure and innocent." Thanks for playing the false equivalence game.

Someone needs to be armed and/or wanted for multiple counts of murder and domestic terrorism to pose a lethal threat?

Was I wrong for interpreting your posts to infer that since the suspects in the movie theater and Boston bombing were captured alive that the police could not possibly have justification for shooting this teenager?

[Young Drachma]

[Shepp]

I wonder what Mr. Brown or his friend did or said that prompted the officer to back up after driving away? I'm also curious what happened between when the officer backed up and the struggle started at the car? It seems like there is a piece or two missing from this story?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Shepp

It seems like there is a piece or two missing from this story?

Imagine that

[RainMaker]

The part where he went on every MSNBC show over the past few days and ignored numerous requests from law enforcement (city, county, and federal) to give his side of the story is odd.

[DaddyTorgo]

Absent any sort of weapon, and given that he, according to witnesses, had his hands in the air and was not at that time engaged in a physical altercation with the officer when he was shot multiple times, I have a hard time finding any way that an 18 year old kid posed a "lethal threat" to an adult male who was armed.

There's some serious mental gymnastics going on to get to "blame the victim" at this point.

THAT BEING SAID - more information may come out in the future and the story may change, but at this point...yeah no.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The part where he went on every MSNBC show over the past few days and ignored numerous requests from law enforcement (city, county, and federal) to give his side of the story is odd.

If the cops shot your friend how willing would you be to talk with them?

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Absent any sort of weapon, and given that he, according to witnesses, had his hands in the air and was not at that time engaged in a physical altercation with the officer when he was shot multiple times, I have a hard time finding any way that an 18 year old kid posed a "lethal threat" to an adult male who was armed.

There's some serious mental gymnastics going on to get to "blame the victim" at this point.

THAT BEING SAID - more information may come out in the future and the story may change, but at this point...yeah no.

Exactly how many witnesses say he had his hands in the air? Last time I checked an "18 year old kid" is an adult male. How do we know he wasn't bigger, stronger, or in better shape than this officer?

The only mental gymnastics that I am seeing are how fast the actions of this officer are being condemned without the whole story even seeing the light of day. At the end of this road the officer may be wrong. He may even deserve to be prosecuted. Then again he may be completely justified. It just amazes me how many folks in the general public and even on this board have already made up their minds.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

If the cops shot your friend how willing would you be to talk with them?

Right, looting the neighborhood is a far better plan.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Shepp

Right, looting the neighborhood is a far better plan.

You have proof this guy was part of the looting?

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

You have proof this guy was part of the looting?

No more than you have that he wasn't.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Shepp

No more than you have that he wasn't.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Because proof is a requirement in this thread all of the sudden.

[chadritt]

So Im trying to find the actual facts which seem to be few: Kids get pulled over while walking for some unknown reason, Kid gets shot 35 feet from car with no weapon while hes clearly NOT charging the cop. Whats missing is whether or not he actually hit the cop, which is entirely possible if his injuries are real, but why was there no attempt to arrest him instead of shooting him? Even if he assaulted an officer whats the logic for defending a shooting from that far away?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

If the cops shot your friend how willing would you be to talk with them?

If I was afraid of the cops I sure as shit wouldn't be on TV all day. He was with a lawyer too. I doubt he was in much danger.

I guess it bugged me that people were hammering the police for not arresting this officer but the key witness wouldn't even give a statement to police (I guess he did this afternoon). Police can't go off MSNBC interviews.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by molson

I think he's referring to the "hands up" thing, and I think you know that.

Yep.
Thanks.

Its this kind of intellectual dishonest agrumenting that leads me to steer clear of these discussions mostly.

[CU Tiger]

If this guy's accounts are accurate (and thats a big if) then the cop should be charged with murder.

Forgive me for doubting his story is 100% factually accurate.

As far as lessons for kids (which was mentioned earlier itt) mine would be if a cop pulls up and aggresively barks orders, if it doesnt endanger you comply (I.E> get out of the middle of the road in this case) If you feel you have been treated wrong lets address it in a professional manner when we are less likely to get shot.

I think that kind of comes with situational awareness. Same goes for a street interaction. Go in wrong neighborhood have a fender bedner get out cussing and screaming and threatening it is likely going to end up poorly.

LEO's should be held to a highr standard, but to assume they will react differently is obviously foolish

[Groundhog]

Huffington Post Reporter Arrested In Ferguson

Two reporters arrested in Ferguson.