Werewolf LXXIX - The Labyrinth (Game Over - Commoners Win!)

[Lathum]

Lesser anchient?

Is that like a sorcerer role?

[Abe Sargent]

Anyway, because I ran into him, I can now vouch for his claimed role. Could he be both a wolf and an Alchemist (or witch)? Sure he could, but I have physical proof that he has a cauldron. That's good enough for me.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Mid-day move deadline at 3 PM EST.

Lynch deadline at 10 PM EST.

No lynch is allowed.
Nightfall is not allowed.
Tie conditions known only to me.

CONCEPT:

The Ancients, some of the first beings of this world, have created a massive labyrinth with which to entertain themselves. They have plucked creatures from all over the world to participate in their game.

The Ancients will make up the wolves, and will not know the layout of the labyrinth. However, they will have special powers. They will alternate kills at night. Only creatures in the same section as the Ancient performing the kill can be targeted, and they will be informed of their choices.

The commoners will make up the rest of the characters. You may be a human, a dinosaur, or some sort of exotic creature. Each type of commoner will have certain abilities.

The catch:

Minotaur - Known as the 'Hammer of the Ancients' by the massive weapon he wields and those that created him, the Minotaur has been placed in this labyrinth and considers its defense a holy honor. He starts in the center of the labyrinth and if he runs into any players, there is a strong chance they will immediately die. The Minotaur cannot be lynched or night-killed. The only way it can be killed is if it meets an Ancient in the labyrinth, whence a mighty battle will ensue.

If a commoner finds the center of the labyrinth, the game ends and the commoners win.

I think we may have to face one of a few things:

1). The Ancients have been very lucky to have found a commoner for four out of five nights.
2). This maze is shorter than we realized.
3). This ruleset is flawed in that the wolves can kill outside of their space or they know the maze better than the rules indicate.

Because four out of five is simply staggering under these rules.

[Abe Sargent]

I believe that quote proves at least two wolves left, because they alternate kills,and we've had kills every night since Tyrith died.

[Abe Sargent]

Lathum, since you are around, tell me more about your loss of a head. I don;t recall you saying much about that. Under what circumstances did you lose it? Perhaps we can track down someone by checking how you lost your head by seeing what powers they supposedly have. What do you know about it?

[Lathum]

I would rather keep that info to myself. All I knew is my head was removed from my body and farrah was close by.

[Abe Sargent]

This is for KWhit in the morning.

I;d like to hear what everybody is at this stage, to help us find the wolves. If you could, I'd love to hear what your role is, and some things about it, since I believe you are the only one to not reveal. I ask this because the seer is dead, and I suspect that I can push for reveals, but I understand if you have a valuable role that you want to keep under your vest for now.

Players Left:

Abe - Raptor, Confirmed
Farrah - Raptor, Confirmed
claphamsa - Raptor, Confirmed
mccollins - Phoenix, Confirmed
Passa - Claims Alchemist, seen with cauldron
Lathum - Claims hydra, and claims head cut off
PB - Claims Stirge, and claims ability temporarily stolen (as with Pass earlier)
ntndeacon - Claims Gargoyle
KWhit - ???

I feel it is time to push for the ??? to get on the board, so I hope you understand my request.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would rather keep that info to myself. All I knew is my head was removed from my body and farrah was close by.

If no one else was close by, I noticed something when rereading the rules just now. Let me quote and bold what I noticed.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Mid-day move deadline at 3 PM EST.

Lynch deadline at 10 PM EST.

No lynch is allowed.
Nightfall is not allowed.
Tie conditions known only to me.

CONCEPT:

The Ancients, some of the first beings of this world, have created a massive labyrinth with which to entertain themselves. They have plucked creatures from all over the world to participate in their game.

The Ancients will make up the wolves, and will not know the layout of the labyrinth. However, they will have special powers. They will alternate kills at night. Only creatures in the same section as the Ancient performing the kill can be targeted, and they will be informed of their choices.

The commoners will make up the rest of the characters. You may be a human, a dinosaur, or some sort of exotic creature. Each type of commoner will have certain abilities.

The catch:

Minotaur - Known as the 'Hammer of the Ancients' by the massive weapon he wields and those that created him, the Minotaur has been placed in this labyrinth and considers its defense a holy honor. He starts in the center of the labyrinth and if he runs into any players, there is a strong chance they will immediately die. The Minotaur cannot be lynched or night-killed. The only way it can be killed is if it meets an Ancient in the labyrinth, whence a mighty battle will ensue.

If a commoner finds the center of the labyrinth, the game ends and the commoners win.

Bolding is mine. It says, simply, that the ONLY way you can get targeted is by a nearby wolf. I thought, on my previous readings of the rules, that it was possible for a wolf to have a special ability that would give them a long range kill, based on the statement that wolves "will have special powers" and I suspect that special powers could circumvent the normal rules.

However, as I read the rules, that interpretation is not longer the case. If it were, The Jackal would have written something like, "the only way you can get targeted by the normal wolf kill" or "wolfs have a natural ability to kill, which can only target those in the same area." In which case, the statement would refer to just that ability. This is a general statement.

Because this could be key, allow me to ask the GM a clarification.

Can the wolves ONLY kill those they are in the same section, regardless of any special power? That is how the rule reads, and I want to verify it.

Also, GM - how big is a "section"? It is one space, or a chunk of the maze?

To be fair, it would be really, really dumb for Farrah to attack Lathum if she is a wolf. Firstly, she was deeper in a COT that Lathum, so why risk that? Secondly, it was very traceable to her since she mentioned that she and Lathum traveled in packs, and Lathum was a Hydra. Knowing he's survive the attack, and that she had been tied to him in the thread, why turn around and attack him?

Something here seems off. Perhaps we are misunderstanding what section means, so I have asked The Jackal what it means. Perhaps Lathum is lying about being attacked in order to push the board towards Farrah, but again, that seems like a gamble. Perhaps Farrah is playing a dangerous game, trying to get out in front in order to not be voted because of course it is a dangerous play.

[Abe Sargent]

The Jackal, note that I asked you two questions in the middle of my above post, in case you are breezing through them.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

PB - Claims Stirge, and claims ability temporarily stolen (as with Pass earlier)

Abe, not trying to be a dick or a stickler but does it matter that my role name is actually Strix as opposed to Stirge or are they the same?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Abe, not trying to be a dick or a stickler but does it matter that my role name is actually Strix as opposed to Stirge or are they the same?

It means the same to me. Perhaps it doesn't to others, but that is the name I know it under. Stirge is listed as the corrupted singular taken from the plural, which is striges. Plural of Strix is Striges. Corrupted back to Stirge. I know Stirges, so I naturally associate you that way, but if youd prefer, I can try to refer to you as Strix for the remainder of the game.

[PurdueBrad]

No, that's cool, like I said, I had to look up Strix so Stirge is just as good since they are the same.

[The Jackal]

The Ancients are restricted in their kill choices but the sections aren't small. I'll explain how it works after the game as addressing it right now would require divulging important information.

[claphamsa]

hmm RendeR was good
But an Ancient how odd
time to end haiku?

[KWhit]

Okay. The reason I haven't revealed up until now is that I didn't know whose side I was on. Seriously.

I am Loki, Norse God of Mischief. I am a third party, initially allied with neither the villagers or the wolves. But last night was fially given the choice - do I want to be an ally to the villagers, or do I want to be an Ancient?

I have chosen the villagers/commoners, because I think we can get at least one of us to the center of the maze.

I'll admit. One of the reasons I have been so quiet is because I have't know how to play this role. Should I try to win for the good guys or the bad guys?

It wasn't originally clear from my role PM that I'd be given a choice like I have been - it said something like my actions would choose which side I was on, and that was kind of hard to play.

So I've pretty much just been walking through the maze searching. But now, I actually have a team to play for. Yay!

[mccollins]

Ok, I'm going over to my new office and I don't know how much internet I'll be able to sneak.

Quick Thoughts:
Lesser Ancient kind of sounds like RendeR was in the process of being converted? I don't know if that makes sense, but maybe all his quoting was him working his way into full-blown Ancient status.

Not sure what to think of KWhit's reveal there.

I'm a phoenix, but if I am killed I'm out of the game for a few turns before resurrecting. I'll keep the turn info to myself.

KTHXBAI

[Lathum]

I wonder if the battle against the dragon was some kind of initiation for Render.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I wonder if the battle against the dragon was some kind of initiation for Render.

Either that or I'm thinking all the quoting had to be a part of his role?

[Passacaglia]

Hey, just got in -- sorry about being quiet lately. Yesterday I had to take lurker to the doctor, and this morning I had my closing. I'm at work for a half-day, so I should be around for a while. I can confirm that I saw Abe last night.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

The Ancients are restricted in their kill choices but the sections aren't small. I'll explain how it works after the game as addressing it right now would require divulging important information.

So it looks like Lathum could have been wolf killed by someone other than Farrah easily. That makes sense, since neither Lathum nor Farrah gain much from it (Farrah by being a wolf and making the attack, and Lathum by being a wolf and making it up).

In fact, that clears Farrah a bit in my eyes, because it would be a good wolf move to attack Lathum, and then try to get people to attach the attack to Farrah who was connected in the thread with Lathum.

Since we now know wolves can kill a few spaces away on the board to more than that, we may have to revise our view of the game.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

So it looks like Lathum could have been wolf killed by someone other than Farrah easily.

So does that mean we had a villager go rogue or the wolves got multiple kills that night?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

So does that mean we had a villager go rogue or the wolves got multiple kills that night?

The rules seem to indicate that individual wolves can kill every other night, so I am not putting it outside the realm that the wolves doubled their kill attempts on one night, with an attempt lopping off a head of Lathum.

[Passacaglia]

Abe, check your PMs? I'd like to hear from you before the deadline.

[Passacaglia]

Doh, by deadline, I meant the 3 PM Movement Phase. Anyway, I made my decision without your input.

[Abe Sargent]

Sorry, just took a look and sent you a pm.

[Passacaglia]

I got it. Anyway, I hope you were able to adjust your 3 PM moves accordingly, but I probably did it too late.

[The Jackal]

All movements should be out.

[Passacaglia]

I think Abe made his move before I gave him my potion. It's not a big deal -- I thought that if he had it, he might move a little differently, but most likely not. Anyway, the potion I gave him lets him fend off one wolf attack.

[Abe Sargent]

I was, thanks.

Folks, I can verify that Passacaglia gave me a potion. Looks like an alchemist to me. The cauldron could have been a witch or a cook or an alchemist, but then he gave me a pot, so he's story is confirmed from my angle.

[Abe Sargent]

I would have preferred not to have told them that, Passa.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I would have preferred not to have told them that, Passa.

What? People have been on my back ALL GAME about not giving them enough info, ever since I made my reveal. If I just said "I gave Abe a potion" then split, everyone would have been all up in my business about it. Thinking about it more, it probably wasn't the best idea to mention that, but the people you have to blame are the people who gave me crap about my initial reveal.

[Abe Sargent]

Hey, I backed you by telling folks what I saw last night, you having a caulron, and then backed you even more by telling them about the potion you gave me, but keep some things in your backpocket for later. Which would be better? Having the wolves lose an attack by coming after me, or by having them gi after others and ignoring me?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Hey, I backed you by telling folks what I saw last night, you having a caulron, and then backed you even more by telling them about the potion you gave me, but keep some things in your backpocket for later. Which would be better? Having the wolves lose an attack by coming after me, or by having them gi after others and ignoring me?

Sure, but you left the door open for me being a wolf and an Alchemist, so I felt like some openness was required here. It would have been nice if we could have got the wolves to lose an attack by going after you, but at least we know that you'llbe safe either way, which is the most important part.

[Abe Sargent]

Alright, I think you misplayed, but it's over for now.

Anyway, we have five confirmed roles (Raptors, Phoenix, Alchemist) and four unconfirmed roles (Stirge/Strix, Gargoyle, Hydra, Loki).

We still have no evidence that a wolf can have dual roles, since the only dead one had just one role, so I want to look at KWhit, PB, ntndeacon or Lathum for a vote. I suspect the remaining wolves are hiding there.

[Abe Sargent]

Farrah, you have been traveling with Lathum for a while. I saw visual evidence of Passa's role when I saw the cauldron. Have you seen any evidence of Lathum being the Hydra? If so, we can remove him as a candidate and I have just three people I am looking at.

[claphamsa]

ok, im busy, and i dont feel like haikuing....


As i see it, ntn is our best vote

i kinda trust kwit, i mean, he came rightout an said that he wasnt sure what side he was on.... not a play a wolf is gonna make methinks


also, I could vaguely see one of the rapotors being bad... and its gotta be farrah... but im just gonna file that away!

found a slayer marathon on the radio, so my work day is imporving!


vote ntndeacon

[mccollins]

Wow, still quiet! I've been in my new area all day getting set up and I don't feel comfortable surfing much yet.

I'll hop back on tonight to place a vote. Abe and others thanks for the good work and analysis.

What's the chance that the "Raptors" is something the wolves made up for a reveal? Or did Lathum see Farrah and she appeared to be a Raptor?

[Lathum]

I did not see farrah

[Lathum]

dola- and as far as I know she didnt see me.

makes me wonder...

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Lathum

dola- and as far as I know she didnt see me.

makes me wonder...

You know what, I'll take the bait here. My votes for ntn have gone nowhere and feel like I might as well be casting no lynch votes at this point so I'll go a different route. And since I do think one of the raptors (outside of Abe) could be a wolf, I'll put my vote on our suddenly silent player.

vote Farrah

[Passacaglia]

VOTE NO LYNCH

[PurdueBrad]

Pass, the more and more I think about it, the more your thinking might be right.

[Lathum]

I know it goes agains logic but I dont trust Pass and Abe at all.

The no lynch, the back and forth about the potion and the fact that Abe was given info about Pass.

something just doesnt feel right.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I know it goes agains logic but I dont trust Pass and Abe at all.

The no lynch, the back and forth about the potion and the fact that Abe was given info about Pass.

something just doesnt feel right.

I was just thinking that, too -- Abe and I were not given the option to travel together, like you and Farrah were.

If you really didn't see Farrah at all, you should look back at where she was telling everyone about it.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I know it goes agains logic but I dont trust Pass and Abe at all.

The no lynch, the back and forth about the potion and the fact that Abe was given info about Pass.

something just doesnt feel right.

I've wondered that as well. Pass has shot up in my trust in recent days but then revealing the potion was odd and not a smart play by a typically very smart player. Abe has stayed constant for me but he got trust because he ran into DT in the labyrinth and DT revealed to him. That doesn't really speak to anything about Abe. I know Abe thinks the game is getting much more clear but I think things are getting foggier honestly. RendeR not being the minotaur and then lesser ancient role has me thrown. KWhit supposedly being another free agent kind of role (similar to Path12 in a way) also has me thrown. We're to the point where a lynch is getting quite impossible as well.

[Abe Sargent]

Here's my current distrust list for the non-confirmed roles:

Gargoyle
Hydra
Strix/Stirge
Loki

In that order. Based on the reveals, if there is a wolf there, I believe this is the order of most likley wolf to least likely. I agree that the Loki reveal about possibly being good or bad was a poor choice for a wolf, so I don;t doubt KWhit;s story as much as others.

We have nine players. Need five for a lynch I believe.


Vote ntndeacon


Since there is already a vote on him. I like the detail he gave with his reveal, and so I wasn;t gunning for him, but PB struck me as authentic in his conern last night, KWhit gave a beleivable reveal, and I want to wait to see what Farrah has to say about Lathum.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I've wondered that as well. Pass has shot up in my trust in recent days but then revealing the potion was odd and not a smart play by a typically very smart player. Abe has stayed constant for me but he got trust because he ran into DT in the labyrinth and DT revealed to him. That doesn't really speak to anything about Abe. I know Abe thinks the game is getting much more clear but I think things are getting foggier honestly. RendeR not being the minotaur and then lesser ancient role has me thrown. KWhit supposedly being another free agent kind of role (similar to Path12 in a way) also has me thrown. We're to the point where a lynch is getting quite impossible as well.

Sometimes things get confused because there is too much info. Just dial it back. For example, your doubt of me. You know he gave me the role info, because I knew his role name was Oracle, just like Tyrith tried. Why would the seer trust me? He scanned me as a commoner, and therefore trusted me with his role information - that is the only answer that makes sense. You saw him buddy up to me in the thread. He all but cleared me in posts in the thread, without actually tipping his hand as seer. If you doubt these facts, then you have logic issues.

Now, is it possible that I am a wolf that scans as a good guy, and DT just happened to run into me on night one? Sure, I guess, but at some time you have to Occam's Razor it. If the only way I am a bad guy is to create some major permutations of the rules, create some that probably aren;t in the game, and defy odds, then sure, doubt me. Otherwise, move on.

[PurdueBrad]

Actually Abe, as stupid as this sounds, it never even dawned on me that DT likely scanned you. No, you aren't high on my distrust and in fact, as much as even DT's word I've been willing to trust you because of the three raptors, you have been mostly the only one willing to consider that one of the three might be bad. You were middle of the road for me although since you were likely scanned, you're right back to where you were.

I really want to hear from Farrah. I also wonder if there is any value in pushing Mccollins because if his details are right and we lynch him "badly" he will come back but at least we'll know 100% he's not a wolf. Although I'm willing to believe he's not a wolf for now anyway.

If we want to try and push ntn again, I'll follow but it just hasn't been happening. Do we think wolves have been stalling that or people's apathy with voting?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Guys...I met Abe in the labyrinth. He sure as hell seemed good to me - he gave up the names of the other 2 raptors to me before they came out publicly as raptors and they matched up. I think Tyrith is a much better vote tonight.

I mean,here you have DT all but telling you he scanned me and I came up good. Do you need me to keep finding proof?