FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I'm a little confused about something,

Did Wilson stop Brown initially because he was Jaywalking or was it because Wilson thought he was the robbery suspect?

I don't think we know for sure yet. This is from Wikipedia.

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigarillos and physically assaulting and intimidating a convenience store clerk.[23][24] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[25]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[14][26][27][28][29] after, according to Wilson,[30] realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[Unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[25]

A struggle took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[31] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[31] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[32] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. Blood on the ground supports statements that Brown continued to move closer toward Wilson after being hit by a number of bullets.[33] At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[14] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[31][34]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][35]

Also, maybe just semantics, but isn't Jaywalking illegally crossing the street? What is it called if you have no intention of crossing the street and are just walking down the middle of the street? Is that called Jaywalking too?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

No, it's their job to make the community safe(r).

And it looks like they did. Communities don't become safer by letting criminals do whatever the hell they want.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Also, maybe just semantics, but isn't Jaywalking illegally crossing the street? What is it called if you have no intention of crossing the street and are just walking down the middle of the street? Is that called Jaywalking too?

I wondered the same thing and this is what I found.

Originally Posted by Missouri Jaywalking Code

300.385. Crossing At Right Angles

No pedestrian shall cross a roadway at any place other than by a route at right angles to the curb or by the shortest route to the opposite curb except in a crosswalk.

300.390. When Pedestrian Shall Yield

(1) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway. (2) Any pedestrian crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian tunnel or over- head pedestrian crossing has been provided shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway. (3) The foregoing rules in this section have no application under the conditions stated in section 300.395 when pedestrians are prohibited from crossing at certain designated places.

300.395. Prohibited Crossing

(1) Between adjacent intersections at which traffic control signals are in operation, pedestrians shall not cross at any place except in a crosswalk. (2) No pedestrian shall cross a roadway other Than in a crosswalk in any business district. (3) No pedestrian shall cross a roadway other than in a crosswalk upon any street designated by ordinance. (4) No pedestrian shall cross a roadway intersection diagonally unless authorized by official traffic control devices; and, when autho- rized to cross diagonally, pedestrians shall cross only in accordance with the official traffic control devices pertaining to such crossing movements.


300.405. Pedestrians Walking Along Roadways

(1) Where sidewalks are provided it shall be unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent roadway. (2) Where sidewalks are not provided any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall when practicable walk only on the left side of the roadway or its shoulder facing traffic, which may approach from the opposite direction

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Anyone rioting is a criminal, but 95% of them are sheep who get caught up in the mob mentality and wouldn't be doing shit unless they saw others getting away with it next to them. But once those people start and aren't moved on it hits a tipping point and its either move in with violence or let everything peter out on its own... And we saw option #2 last night.

I think a lot of people were there to stir up trouble. It also didn't help that Brown's stepfather told everyone what he wanted done to the city. You can see why Mike grew up to be what he was.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

You guys really don't understand the social psychology of why people loot hmm?

First google result: BBC News - UK riots: What turns people into looters?

tl;dr version: It makes people who feel powerless feel powerful. It's a way for those who have nothing to lose to express outrage.

Why does this matter? There are also rapists who commit their crime for the same reason. Same for serial killers. We would never try and excuse those crimes by claiming the individuals just feel powerless and want to express their outrage. People who make excuses for these kind of actions only hurt these communities more. It's justifying a criminal act that hurts countless people.

[EagleFan]

Think I will start a country wide tour giving lectures on "how to not get shot by the police".

Lesson one: Don't try to take their gun.

Lesson two: Don't pull a weapon on one.

Lesson three: Don't be a criminal.

Lesson four: Don't make sudden movements in a tense situation (this one should be common sense).



Simple rules that should be common sense.

[panerd]

Two FBI agents shot in University City... another small city on the outskirts of Saint Louis. Also where a police officer was shot Monday night. News said not related to Ferguson. Apparently the FBI has a hospital downtown surrounded.

Panerd speculation: Maybe some other terror group wanted to join in during the chaos and was stopped?

EDIT: Seems as though it is just some loser that killed his mom but according to the news the FBI is outside a hospital which doesn't match this story.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

In my experience 2 things work to stop a large crowd like this - either using your line of SWAT officers to march through and mow people down with rubber bullets/capsaicin (which I agree is a no go here), or an overwhelming show of force before the thugs and idiots start throwing bottles and trying to break into stores. (Preferably with groups of 2-3 plainclothes officers in the crowd that can quickly isolate, arrest, and drag away the few people that still want to instigate by throwing anything.)

I'm trying to imagine the political fallout of a line of fully armored SWAT officers (mostly white) facing a group of minorities. I'm guessing that would have played poorly to the crowd currently ripping Missouri for not handling the looting better. The same saps on CNN who are ripping the state for not handling it well would be showing images of SWAT vs black kids and making comparisons to 1960s Alabama.

There was an agenda to politicize this from the start. It's a shame, because I think that built some resentment when the two initial claims that Brown had his hands up and got shot in the back were shown to be outright lies after the autopsy. Add in all the race-baiting and I think that was one of the big reasons this never made trial. I'm guessing there were a ton of jurors who went into this case expecting to see some hothead white cop opening fire on an innocent black kid (the tone of the media for the first two weeks). Once that narrative was dispelled by evidence and witnessing the officer, the case probably fell apart. IMO, the media and race inciters really hurt this case from the start. They made it very easy for the officer side to show he wasn't the big bad wolf picking on a poor little black kid going to his grandma's house (actual original story, I kid you not).

[ISiddiqui]

Just for fun

But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity

-Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Arles]

Yeah, I can see a comparison to the plight of the minority that existed in 1968 and what exists today. Our society hasn't advanced at all, I mean I still hope for the day we can have a Black President or Black leaders in major corporations. I know - pie in the sky - but one can hope....

[ISiddiqui]

The ole' racism doesn't exist anymore, eh?

[ISiddiqui]

The interesting about the MLK quote is that it all applies today. The plight of African American poor has worsened over the last decade+. African Americans DO feel as if the promises of freedom and justice haven't been met - I have co-workers who are professionals, with law degrees and all the right, who are literally scared for their male children. It isn't for show, they are frightened for their lives. And this isn't just a one paranoid parent, it's just about every single African-American co-worker with a male child.

And large segments of white society are more concerned with tranquility and the status quo rather than justice and humanity? Well, DUH.

[jeff061]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time believing the rioters are trying to do anything but co-opt a tragedy in order to justify having a fun time. If they announced the officer was being charged they'd probably be disappointed that they couldn't light shit on fire and steal things.

So I'm not so sure, in my opinion, how relevant that MLK quote is.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The interesting about the MLK quote is that it all applies today. The plight of African American poor has worsened over the last decade+. African Americans DO feel as if the promises of freedom and justice haven't been met - I have co-workers who are professionals, with law degrees and all the right, who are literally scared for their male children. It isn't for show, they are frightened for their lives. And this isn't just a one paranoid parent, it's just about every single African-American co-worker with a male child.

And large segments of white society are more concerned with tranquility and the status quo rather than justice and humanity? Well, DUH.

If you think 10% of the people that rioted on Monday night rioted for the reasons you posted above and for what MLK Jr said, you are massively oversampling

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The interesting about the MLK quote is that it all applies today. The plight of African American poor has worsened over the last decade+. African Americans DO feel as if the promises of freedom and justice haven't been met - I have co-workers who are professionals, with law degrees and all the right, who are literally scared for their male children. It isn't for show, they are frightened for their lives. And this isn't just a one paranoid parent, it's just about every single African-American co-worker with a male child.

And large segments of white society are more concerned with tranquility and the status quo rather than justice and humanity? Well, DUH.

First off, lets not play to extremes. Things are far from perfect/equal, but far beyond where they were in 1968. I have no fear for my black son because he knows how to respond to authority, even when he does not agree with it. We have also talked about the stereotypes that a young black male has to overcome still and how to diffuse them, without compromising your integrity, self worth or rights.

I was 5 in 1968, so I really don't know what it was like from experience, but I do know what it was like in 1981 when as an 18 year old white male I endured the following.

1-Being called a N****r lover from a moving care as I walked with my girlfriend.

2-Being threatened in a club by a group of black males because I was with one of "their" women.

3-Being left standing in the rain on a curb, when the white cab driver realized the black girl waiting under an awning was my girl friend. That motherfucker took off with the door open and I was left consoling a girl in tears because of what happened.

Guess what, that shit doesn't happen anymore and truth is my wife and I rarely get a an odd glance anywhere we go now.

Am I naïve enough to believe racism is dead? Hell no, I realize it is there and has now just become subtle. But please, let's not discount the progress or ignore the fact that a very likely large portion of those creating havoc in Ferguson truly give a shit about anything but the opportunity to destroy things and in many cases lash out for being held down, when they themselves do little to pick themselves up.

There is still a long way to go in this situation before everything is truly out in the open, which hopefully it all will be. In the meantime patience from those on both sides of the issue needs to be exercised. In this day and age this is not going to away until every stone possible is unturned and rightfully so.

When that happens it will hopefully create action/opportunity for deeper discussions and more importantly actions to sooth the racial wounds in this country. In the meantime pretending that we are in 1960's Alabama is doing a disservice to those of all races who worked so hard to get things to the point they are today.

Unfortunately I guess it is just easier to label the majority of black people thugs, the majority LEO's power drunk assassins and the majority of white America as privileged elitists with their heads in the sand.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

If you think 10% of the people that rioted on Monday night rioted for the reasons you posted above and for what MLK Jr said, you are massively oversampling

I assume you've read DT's link as to why people riot? That's basically the reason MLK Jr. put out there. People feel powerless - "language of the unheard". So yeah, that's the reason.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

First off, lets not play to extremes. Things are far from perfect/equal, but far beyond where they were in 1968.

Who exactly said otherwise? I pointed out that things MLK, Jr. said in 1968 are still valid today. Are you going to actually go through and deny those points or are you just going to compare 1968 in general to 2014 in general? Because it seems like a strawman argument at best.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I assume you've read DT's link as to why people riot? That's basically the reason MLK Jr. put out there. People feel powerless - "language of the unheard". So yeah, that's the reason.

Replace "powerless" with "opportunist" and you have my stance on all this rioting.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Replace "powerless" with "opportunist" and you have my stance on all this rioting.

Agree to strongly disagree.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Who exactly said otherwise? I pointed out that things MLK, Jr. said in 1968 are still valid today. Are you going to actually go through and deny those points or are you just going to compare 1968 in general to 2014 in general? Because it seems like a strawman argument at best.

What specifics are you referencing with MLK JR's speech? Outside of a some lingering bigotry that is very inward, I can't think of any tangible situation/industry/school where the racism he was fighting in 1968 exists in a manner that makes his comments still valid. The poor (be it white, black, latino, asian,...) have access to services, school, housing and even representation in society at such a higher level than blacks did in 1968 - that it's almost not even worth comparing.

Are we where we need to be in society on race? Probably not. Is it still at a level where rioting is a legitimate response by the minority to court cases? - a resounding No.

[ISiddiqui]

I can quote the relevant part again:

And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity

All applies today, IMO. And I think most African-Americans would agree.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Is it still at a level where rioting is a legitimate response by the minority to court cases? - a resounding No.

Of course you realize that plenty of folks in 1968 did say that rioting isn't a legitimate response by the minority to lack of civil rights. Heck, most folks said that protesting isn't a legitimate response (see King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail". And King isn't saying that rioting is justified, but that it is UNDERSTANDABLE.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Guess what, that shit doesn't happen anymore and truth is my wife and I rarely get a an odd glance anywhere we go now..

I would totally give you two a glance, because your wife is beautiful.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I would totally give you two a glance, because your wife is beautiful.

LOL, well that would get you a free beer

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Who exactly said otherwise? I pointed out that things MLK, Jr. said in 1968 are still valid today. Are you going to actually go through and deny those points or are you just going to compare 1968 in general to 2014 in general? Because it seems like a strawman argument at best.

I think you implication was that not much had changed and while my timeline showed there was indeed a progression it also acknowledged that some things from then had not changed, which makes it a valid argument, that also supports at least small parts of your post.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Arles

The poor (be it white, black, latino, asian,...) have access to services, school, housing and even representation in society at such a higher level than blacks did in 1968 - that it's almost not even worth comparing.

Is your opinion on this based on research or anecdotal evidence?

I ask because I assume the 500% increase in minority incarceration over the last 30 years has had a massively negative impact on minority communities.

Also, most Conservatives would say the Welfare state and Great Society has only created a dependency on black communities, not mobility.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Is your opinion on this based on research or anecdotal evidence?

I ask because I assume the 500% increase in minority incarceration over the last 30 years has had a massively negative impact on minority communities.

Also, most Conservatives would say the Welfare state and Great Society has only created a dependency on black communities, not mobility.

Wage, home ownership, number of executives in business, access to education... Pick your metric - African American performance in any has skyrocketed since 1968. Now, bear in mind a lot of this was due to outstanding individual efforts not some sweeping government change - but the performance of millions of young african americans have made society change and be more accepting of them. I don't see that changing as time goes forward.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And it looks like they did. Communities don't become safer by letting criminals do whatever the hell they want.

Yes, Feguson looks much safer today than it did in August.

[tarcone]

Ferguson is a community that has come back from a real bad situation. It is a nice community. The area that is being torn up is about 2 blocks on one road. It is not the community as a whole.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wow. Just saw that the same guy who was robbed by Brown was looted by the crowds this week. Sucks to be that guy.

[Matthean]

A former pastor of mine had his non-profit business burned down.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

I ask because I assume the 500% increase in minority incarceration over the last 30 years has had a massively negative impact on minority communities.

And any change needs to come from within those communities first. Fathers need to be involved in their kids lives, if no father then some other role model. Someone to teach these kids right from wrong.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Lathum

And any change needs to come from within those communities first. Fathers need to be involved in their kids lives, if no father then some other role model. Someone to teach these kids right from wrong.

This

[cuervo72]

Well, this doesn't help either:

Drug Sentencing Disparities

• About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug
• 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites
• African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.
• African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)

Criminal Justice Fact Sheet | NAACP

Surely those numbers have nothing to do with policing or the justice system.

[JPhillips]

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Well, this doesn't help either:
[/list]Criminal Justice Fact Sheet | NAACP

Surely those numbers have nothing to do with policing or the justice system.

Just wasting your breath. No matter the statistics, some people will continue to believe this is all about the black community being evil.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Wow. I count 16 people saying he had his hands up vs. two who said he didn't.

[rowech]

I'm not sure what to make of that chart. Eliminae any witness as credible if they are in the clear minority of how they saw something compared to the others? What a mess.

People will start moving to Cleveland's incident at any point now.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Just wasting your breath. No matter the statistics, some people will continue to believe this is all about the black community being evil.

And on issues like this one most people will just continue voting "lessor of two evils" when neither of the two major political parties gives two shits about changing the laws. (Yes that includes the Democratic Party)

[tarcone]

Ah statistics. They say what you want them to say, dont they?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by panerd

And on issues like this one most people will just continue voting "lessor of two evils" when neither of the two major political parties gives two shits about changing the laws. (Yes that includes the Democratic Party)

I've believed the Democratic Party has been betraying those that they are suppose to be representing for a long, long time in the name of winning elections.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Lathum

And any change needs to come from within those communities first. Fathers need to be involved in their kids lives, if no father then some other role model. Someone to teach these kids right from wrong.

Strange how fathers became historically bad at the same time the war on drugs started...

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Wow. I count 16 people saying he had his hands up vs. two who said he didn't.

I wish they would give more detail on this, because that is disturbing. During the presser several "positions" of his hands were noted. Here it is basically yes or no, without regard to the position.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I've believed the Democratic Party has been betraying those that they are suppose to be representing for a long, long time in the name of winning elections.

Well my evidence is most certainly anecdotal and I admit so but it is also local so does actually tie into Ferguson. I know several guys who were big into the 99% thing who are also white peaceful protestors at this event and who naively believe change will come one day once the Democrats can get full control of the government. I of course can't speak for everyone but would be willing to bet of those who vote in those crowds they are likely 80-90% democratic and maybe the rest green or other parties.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Strange how fathers became historically bad at the same time the war on drugs started...

and what about all the other crimes young black men go to prison for? What is your explanation for those?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

and what about all the other crimes young black men go to prison for? What is your explanation for those?

Lead.

Crime rates are way down all across the country.

[cartman]

So it turns out that Bob McCulloch, the prosecutor of the case, is also the president of an organization called The Backstoppers, Inc. This organization sold shirts featuring a picture of Missouri and the statement “I SUPPORT OFFICER D. WILSON”. The funds from the sales of the shirt went to Backstoppers as well as the Office Wilson Defense Fund.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by cartman

So it turns out that Bob McCulloch, the prosecutor of the case, is also the president of an organization called The Backstoppers, Inc. This organization sold shirts featuring a picture of Missouri and the statement “I SUPPORT OFFICER D. WILSON”. The funds from the sales of the shirt went to Backstoppers as well as the Office Wilson Defense Fund.

No conflict of interest there...

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

So it turns out that Bob McCulloch, the prosecutor of the case, is also the president of an organization called The Backstoppers, Inc. This organization sold shirts featuring a picture of Missouri and the statement “I SUPPORT OFFICER D. WILSON”. The funds from the sales of the shirt went to Backstoppers as well as the Office Wilson Defense Fund.

The Backstoppers not benefitting from Darren Wilson shirt sales : News

[Jukeman]

Can we acknowledge those who are protecting local businesses? No? Ok.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by cartman

So it turns out that Bob McCulloch, the prosecutor of the case, is also the president of an organization called The Backstoppers, Inc. This organization sold shirts featuring a picture of Missouri and the statement “I SUPPORT OFFICER D. WILSON”. The funds from the sales of the shirt went to Backstoppers as well as the Office Wilson Defense Fund.

Its funny that on the front page of the Backstoppers site is a disclaimer. It says:
The BackStoppers, Inc. does not organize, sponsor or control any fundraising efforts. We are sincerely grateful on behalf of the families of the fallen for the efforts of those who organize fundraisers.

Do some research. Backstoppers is an outstanding organization that does great things for our first responders.
Sure they may have accepted money, but Im not sure that is even true. But they didnt sel t-shirts. They accept money from others that fund raise.