Werewolf XLVIII - The horror of sorcery hill (Game over)

[RendeR]

Ok, somethings fubared, there should be four paragraphs in that post.....

[Alan T]

Some of the checks and balances I tried to introduce in the game.. I feel that usually in wide open games, it favors the villagers.. so this game not having any roles open in the start was a severe handicap. I wonder if it was too much of one.

The bad guys only had a night kill, nothing else special unless they too developed magic. The catch however is for anyone to use a potion, it would let everyone know who used it and who it was used upon. So bad guys would have to be very creative to really use anything, or they would have to work to make the magical items which required even more ingredients.

The no lynch was put in the game more of a tease than anything. It gave everyone yet one more thing to think about and was designed to possibly slow up the first day or so to allow the village more time to figure out how things worked before too many people died. I find it an interesting debate who no lynch hurts the most too, so that was always fun

[RendeR]

When's the next one?

[hoopsguy]

Looks like Tanglewood is on the clock. His last game was borderline insane with the overlapping roles.

[st.cronin]

I think no lynch on day 1 saved the village in this game. The move was to lynch Passacaglia, possibly the village mvp, and no wolves were pushing the lynch.

[Passacaglia]

Nice job, village! I'll post thoughts tomorrow.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

When's the next one?

lol, someone has the bug...

[Lathum]

[quote=RendeR;1498969]Being a wolf was awesome. In my first 2 games I was a seer both times. In the second two just a plain villager. Having the seer ability was great, but being a wolf seriously kicks ass. Best role possible. IMO. [quote]

I hate being a wolf

[path12]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

It is kind of interesting that the wolves more or less hunkered down and collected their own items, without a big effort to get public trust.

Path, FWIW I only accused you of doing what I would have tried to do as a wolf this game. I thought you were one of a few people as wolves who would 1.) let me live for awhile as a villager 2.) work towards trust publicly. Ardent was on that list as well, but he didn't weird me out early in the game - only when he swung on Day 4 did he elevate from middle-of-the-pack for me.

Actually, that pretty much would have been my strategy if I'd been bad.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Lonestargirl made a post the other day, something like "RendeR, ardent, and ntn have been lurking for a long time without posting anything." Blew my mind.

Watching this game from the sidelines was like watching that Oilers-Bills playoff game, where the halftime score was something like 35-3 Bills, and then the Oilers won.

that was happenstance if iremember correctly, but the one that got us was when someone said Now watch it be AE Render and ntn as the wolves and we are talking about all villagers.

[ntndeacon]

And by the way If we had gotten to convert at the end...
Barkeep

[hoopsguy]

Yeah, if that convert had happened we would have been in serious trouble without Rum showing up today. There would have been plenty of room for voting tricks near deadline - I was definitely concerned about that down the stretch when it was 1-1 with my vote pending and 30 minutes left.

[st.cronin]

I hate being converted, especially late in the game. I'd rather just be killed.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You know what my fear is?

That we're all talking about villagers here, and the real wolves are ardent, NTN and render.

Yes, this was posted after LSG (about an hour or a little more), but I don't even recall her posting that until reading through this end game stuff.

I posted this not long before I switched to AE. In fact, this was the post I was referring to when I later said the reason I switched to AE was because he was fresh in my mind.

So even if LSG deserves more credit for pointing it out, I still give myself a little pat on the back.

I'll also say, while certainly nabbing AE as a wolf was luck, my decision to move to him was a calculated one that did exactly what I had hoped it would do--it revealed a wolf (two, if you count Render, whom I pointed out for his hoops vote before he was revealed by LSG via the Eternal Bond).

Okay, okay, that was the good.

Bad? I focused too much on Barkeep early. Sorry, BK. If it helps any, I clearly switched to trusting you after the potion incident with Pass, and I think I was pretty consistent with that.

I also had to miss out on today's vote thanks to work, which sucks. It's sometimes hard to get online if I run late at my first job, and we have been very busy.

I am glad you guys made the right choice today and got us that last wolf.

Alan, I really enjoyed this game, and thanks for running it. I do think we got lucky, and it maybe was angled more toward the wolves at the start (without the roles and a lack of information about putting together the potions/items). But I think we also showed that once we get past those disadvantages, the pendulum swung rather quickly against the wolves. Good game all around. Probably would have been a terrific 20-plus player game, as we would have had a lot more chances to create potions and make them figure in the results.

Good job villagers. I am looking forward to the next game.

[Barkeep49]

I do just want to point out that I was very forceful about certain things in this game purely because I believe them. This game just happened to have two things I believe in which made twice the force .

I'll always maintain that we won this game more because of luck than anything. Frankly Render, I think we'd have looked your direction soon and your voting pattern was already suspicious to me even before LSG fingered you directly. If it's any relief, if you'd attacked me the last two nights it would have been blocked thanks to the holy water.

I think all three wolves deserve credit. They kind of took a back seat to some other players and if not for those meddling kids would have gotten away with it. To have such a consistent behind the scenes role is hard to pull off because of the fun of playing the wolves so they all deserve credit for it. I really don't think there's much of a flaw in the way they played at all.

Finally I'll just say that this game reminded me that there is value in post evaluation as my reviews of hoops and LSG made me trust them more. Of course it didn't help me at all when it came to path. I seem to be much better at figuring out who is a villager than who is a wolf.

[Barkeep49]

DOLA -- I know Tangle was excited about his game. He could start it after the 10th, which is luckily right now so hopefully we'll see a sign-up tomorrow and be ready to start soon.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I do just want to point out that I was very forceful about certain things in this game purely because I believe them. This game just happened to have two things I believe in which made twice the force .

I'll always maintain that we won this game more because of luck than anything. Frankly Render, I think we'd have looked your direction soon and your voting pattern was already suspicious to me even before LSG fingered you directly. If it's any relief, if you'd attacked me the last two nights it would have been blocked thanks to the holy water.

I think all three wolves deserve credit. They kind of took a back seat to some other players and if not for those meddling kids would have gotten away with it. To have such a consistent behind the scenes role is hard to pull off because of the fun of playing the wolves so they all deserve credit for it. I really don't think there's much of a flaw in the way they played at all.

Finally I'll just say that this game reminded me that there is value in post evaluation as my reviews of hoops and LSG made me trust them more. Of course it didn't help me at all when it came to path. I seem to be much better at figuring out who is a villager than who is a wolf.

I think what is interesting is all three wolves were found through different methods, and this game hilights the way WW can just roll over at times.

Ardent - Pretty much lucky grab, no doubt about that. As Cronin said, that was perhaps the most bizzare lynch I've ever seen. 9 times out of 10 I would assume what happenend that lynch could have only been orchestrated by bad guys, and in this case it was an amazingly lucky lynch. It was crazy to watch, and I was still amazed by it afterwards. I don't know if that lynch saved the game per say, and the villagers finally had started to form a CoT even before it, but it definitly was the catalyst to turn things around.

Render - This lynch was pretty much thanks to the good ole fashion WW role tip off. Just like a seer catching a bad guy or a bodyguard blocking a wolf and catching someone, Render was dead to rights. It probably only sped up the inevitable however as many people had their targets on Render thanks to the AE vote before the day even started. I loved how Render didn't go down quietly though, there is nothing worse than a boring day where the end result is already a given and nothing happens all day. I was hoping he was going to use the blindness potion on someone before he died to cast a shadow of doubt on whether or not he converted them or something. It also was bad luck that he destroyed the newt tail instead of passing it to ntn, as that would have allowed ntn to convert someone and possibly save himself the next day.

Ntndeacon - the good ole fashion lynch via deductive reasoning. While I thought Passacaglia, Swaggs and Lonestargirl all had strong games that got you all to a good spot in the end game, I really loved sitting back and watching the conversation the last day with Chief, Hoops, Path and Barkeep. Ashame that RL kept it from happening for the most part until the last hour of the day, but watching this lynch develop was probably the best all day. I sat on the edge of my seat wondering if people were going to take out Path, if ntn was going to skate, or if people would turn back on Chief. Pulling out the reason to vote ntn from the previous posts all game is probably the best part of WW and shows that sometimes you don't need a seer to be able to pick out a bad guy.

[RendeR]

Unfortunately I didn't know the newt tail was needed and ntn was missing in action for most of the day when i was lynched =(

[RendeR]

Wait, I didn't HAVE a newt tail, I had lizard tail (it was given to me specifically as lizard tail?) I gave the newt tail to hoops the previous day as a trust ploy.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Wait, I didn't HAVE a newt tail, I had lizard tail (it was given to me specifically as lizard tail?) I gave the newt tail to hoops the previous day as a trust ploy.

Ahh I remembered that wrong. either way, ntn didn't know he needed it until after you had gotten rid of it. He didn't get the recipe to use it until the night after you died.

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'll always maintain that we won this game more because of luck than anything. Frankly Render, I think we'd have looked your direction soon and your voting pattern was already suspicious to me even before LSG fingered you directly.

I think a couple of us were suspicious of Render was because he didn't back up his vote for me, he just voted. But that wasn't enough for us to vote for him I guess.

[Swaggs]

I had a great time with that game, even after I died.

I was surprised that the wolves killed me, as I pulled the late vote switch that, in the end, lead to Lathum getting lynched. I figured the rest of the villagers would suspect me, so the wolves would lead me alone.

I felt bad for Path, because (I think) Pass and I trusted him in our CoT, but, for whatever reason, hoops and Barkeep kept coming back to him--especially after Pass and I were killed by the wolves. I also felt bad because folks thought that I had given Path a potion, but I ended up keeping and dying with the blinding potion.

[Passacaglia]

I think all three wolves deserve credit. They kind of took a back seat to some other players and if not for those meddling kids would have gotten away with it. To have such a consistent behind the scenes role is hard to pull off because of the fun of playing the wolves so they all deserve credit for it. I really don't think there's much of a flaw in the way they played at all.

That's a good point. When I first heard who all the wolves are, I thought, "Damn -- how were we supposed to guess them?" But I know that I get giddy when I'm a wolf, and that makes it hard to play UTR.

Day 1 -- I'm just glad y'all didn't lynch me. I was worried that the rules said a majority needed to vote for no kill in order for it to work, and I think it was 7 out of 14. I was hoping that a majority needed to be more than 50% (not exactly 50%), or that he really just meant a plurality. Obviously, given that the most likely alternative was lynching me, I'm glad we went no kill. Although, I wonder what it would have been like if we had been more in favor of a kill then, and the vote was spread out (and not on me) -- my thinking was that with all the potions and items and such, if we delayed the game, we could have used magic to protect ourselves better. By the way, did the names mean anything? I was really hoping to study as many of the names as I could, and figure out some weird pattern or something.

Day 2 -- Probably the best example of crazy switched-up trust in this game. First, Barkeep was on my case a lot Day 1 and a little in Day 2, then ended up trusting me pretty well toward the end. But here, Swaggs and I got in a total catfight that would get sorted out Day 3. A lot of my play that day hinged on the fact that the wolves already knew most of the recipes, but now that the game has panned out, I'm not so sure they knew the recipes we had, most specifically Swaggs's holy water recipe. This was also the first of some horrific votes on my part -- I followed AE on Izulde, and didn't get a chance to check in before deadline. I was just kind of glad people were off my back.

Day 3 -- This was the big day of potion-making. Swaggs was the one to really get things started. He came out with what items he had, and gave me his mushrooms. That was only one of the ingredients I needed to make a blinding potion -- I also needed peppers. In return, since Swaggs was asking for a liquid, I gave him my spring water. He gave me his recipe for holy water. So we still needed peppers and a holy flask. After all this talk, I was ready to make a play like I had everything, to attract the wolves to kill me, when I had really passed it to Swaggs. Of course, that all went to crap in a ton of ways -- hoops mentioned the fact that I could still pass the items to someone else later in the day, shedding doubt to the wolves as to whether or not I would have them, then Swaggs said he had to leave shortly, so he wouldn't be able to do much with the ingredients anyway, then path showed up with the exact two ingredients we needed. So path passed them to me, and I passed them to Swaggs, who had all the other junk. Swaggs made both the blinding potion and the holy water. I thought he was passing one to each of us, but I guess he kept the blinding potion himself, which confused the heck out of me later on. So I spent the rest of the day thinking about who to send the holy water to, in hopes of making the holy shield out of it. I was looking at Swaggs, path, and somewhat ntn, who had passed my an artificial lens that never ended up being useful. In the end, I left work forgetting to pass it, which was fine, since I figured that with all the confusion it was 33/33/33 that either Swaggs, me, or path would die, and I didn't trust ntn as much as those guys, and if the three of us were equal shots to die I might as well just keep it. Voting-wise, I was potion-happy, voting people who didn't reveal anything, then unvoting when they did. I think I was on AE, then Render, then settled on Lathum (whoops -- but for the record, my vote for him came before hoops's accusation, so I wasn't a sheep!)

Day 4 -- This day started with LSG asking me several times who made the potions the day before, which seemed really wolfish to me -- but it made me glad to think that the conversation was such that only those of us on at the time were really able to follow it -- although I thought it was pretty obvious who was involved in making the potions. I just saw that AE passed mercury to hoops. Was that the same mercury that DT had? Kinda weird. Path came out with some information on the blinding potion -- what was that, anyway, path? This seems like the day that, for whatever reason, I moved up in a lot of people's trust, and it seems to me that's mainly because of the recipes that I had. Makes me wonder how I would have played differently as a wolf -- it seems like this would have been a really gun game to play as a wolf. I think this was also when path passed me the ingredients for the eternal bond potion, which I'm still fuzzy as to how we got them both. toward the end of the day, I used the holy water on BK -- he'd been on and off my radar at times, and I didn't even know what the stuff did, so I figured I'd use it on someone who was a bit of a question mark, but vocal enough where our opinion of him really mattered. I wasn't so sure that the result had cleared him, but between giving the order and actually throwing it, I was already starting to trust him more anyway.

Day 5 -- This was the day that path took a lot of heat, and I'm glad he ended up good, since I would have looked pretty foolish if he was innocent. Again, I threw another potion at a question mark -- I was hoping to bond with a wolf, so that they would be afraid to kill me. It didn't really work, but it at least told me that LSG was good. Right after I died, I started to freak out that the wolves had used a mind control potion or spell to make me think she was good. Anyway, I almost threw it at render, which would have told me he was evil. I only had something like 15 minutes until deadline, but I think since everyone was on, we could have got enough votes in time. As it was, we just got amazingly lucky with that vote on AE. Most of my vote for hoops depended on my theory that LSG was in cahoots with her, and was going to switch her vote to AE at the last minute. But knowing LSG was good, that boosted my trust in hoops, so I switched -- it was a race against the clock to get it done in time, since I had already seen BK's switch, stamped at 9 PM. Total luck -- seemed like with all the potions and junk, we weren't accomplishing much, but that really changed things, really catching the wolves by surprise. It really exposed render's vote, and left ntn's vote on the wolf. I tried to cast some suspicion on LSG, so they wouldn't think that we knew each other was good, then cleared her right before dying.

Day 6 -- Fun to watch, and I wish I had been alive for it, and free to make more witty comments!

Day 7 -- I probably would have been no help here. I likely would have been looking at either ntn or CR, but I'm glad you guys figured it out!

Fun game, Alan! It was cool being in a position to use the potions, even though I wasn't totally up on what they do.

[Passacaglia]

That was pretty rambly, and I'm not sure if the days even match up. Y'all get the idea, though.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

DOLA -- I know Tangle was excited about his game. He could start it after the 10th, which is luckily right now so hopefully we'll see a sign-up tomorrow and be ready to start soon.

Looks like tangle has been on today, so he'll likely be able to. If not, I'm out of town from Thursday evening until Monday morning, but I can post rules Thursday afternoon, let signups go over the weekend, and send out roles Monday morning. If that doesn't work, I can let the person after me go ahead.

[Alan T]

To answer some of your questions Pass..

No the names didnt mean anything... They were there just for flavor and for people to wonder what the names did

Day 3 - I wasnt sure why Swaggs didnt make the other potion when he made the holy water one. At first I thought he wasn't going to make it at all in fear that it would help the bad guys. but right at the end of the day he put the order in to make it and didnt leave a conditional order to pass it or use it on anyone. So the wolves got it.

Day 4 - DT had mercury that Ardent got when he killed him, however the same night that Ardent killed DT , he also found his own mercury in the store room. So he went from 0 mercury to suddenly 2 mercury. The reason they killed DT was because the two recipes the bad guys started with was for the poison potion and the poison knife. They needed mercury for that, however the other ingredient they needed (poisoned flour) never made it into the game. I honestly was suprised that no one ever really brought up the whole Ardent having the mercury thing. At the time what were the odds there were 2 different mercury in the game? And would you all have even known there could be 2 of an ingredient. Not saying that he should have been lynched there for having the mercury, but I was suprised that it didn't bring up any quesiton marks for anyone at all, or become a subject matter.

[Passacaglia]

Ah, so that's why he asked if it was flour, instead of flower. Heh.

[path12]

Pass: I found out that the blinding potion was to be thrown at someone you didn't trust and it would take away their sight (seems obvious enough in retrospect). I don't know what consequence would come from someone not being able to see.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Alan T

To answer some of your questions Pass..

No the names didnt mean anything... They were there just for flavor and for people to wonder what the names did

Day 3 - I wasnt sure why Swaggs didnt make the other potion when he made the holy water one. At first I thought he wasn't going to make it at all in fear that it would help the bad guys. but right at the end of the day he put the order in to make it and didnt leave a conditional order to pass it or use it on anyone. So the wolves got it.

Day 4 - DT had mercury that Ardent got when he killed him, however the same night that Ardent killed DT , he also found his own mercury in the store room. So he went from 0 mercury to suddenly 2 mercury. The reason they killed DT was because the two recipes the bad guys started with was for the poison potion and the poison knife. They needed mercury for that, however the other ingredient they needed (poisoned flour) never made it into the game. I honestly was suprised that no one ever really brought up the whole Ardent having the mercury thing. At the time what were the odds there were 2 different mercury in the game? And would you all have even known there could be 2 of an ingredient. Not saying that he should have been lynched there for having the mercury, but I was suprised that it didn't bring up any quesiton marks for anyone at all, or become a subject matter.

Alan it was hard to get a grasp, at least for me, of how many ingredients were theoretically in the game and how you balanced them. So someone having two of something wouldn't strike me as odd, especially early, as if there was a small amount of ingredients in the game.

I will say though that it seems like random.org had a large impact on gameplay as certain mechanics were never able to be used because of the dice rolls.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Alan it was hard to get a grasp, at least for me, of how many ingredients were theoretically in the game and how you balanced them. So someone having two of something wouldn't strike me as odd, especially early, as if there was a small amount of ingredients in the game.

I will say though that it seems like random.org had a large impact on gameplay as certain mechanics were never able to be used because of the dice rolls.

I don't think i explained fully how I balanced the ingredients and what came into play. I think arguably if you had 3 or 4 seer type potions pop into play this game would be crazy easy. What I did was made some ingredients more abundant than others by listing them multiple times in the ingredient list. There were also safeguards on some of the more powerful potions where if they were attempted a second time, they would just outright fail.

I think the number of potions that you all had the ingredients for (about 9 or 10 of them), combined with the recipes you got, led to about 5 or 6 of them being possible to be made which is about what I had envisoned, perhaps a tad on the low side. I think the two places that I was the most frustrated with random.org was the kitchen and the library. Hoopsguy had horrible luck in the kitchen/ Render getting the bodyguard item, and in the library there should have been another spell or two that showed up with as much as people went there.


I am not a big fan of random.org, but sure enough I keep using it heavily in games. Perhaps thats something I need to try to think about next game a way to replace the randomness and instead use some other mechanism to have non-predestined roles distributed.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Alan T

To answer some of your questions Pass..

No the names didnt mean anything... They were there just for flavor and for people to wonder what the names did

Day 3 - I wasnt sure why Swaggs didnt make the other potion when he made the holy water one. At first I thought he wasn't going to make it at all in fear that it would help the bad guys. but right at the end of the day he put the order in to make it and didnt leave a conditional order to pass it or use it on anyone. So the wolves got it.

Day 4 - DT had mercury that Ardent got when he killed him, however the same night that Ardent killed DT , he also found his own mercury in the store room. So he went from 0 mercury to suddenly 2 mercury. The reason they killed DT was because the two recipes the bad guys started with was for the poison potion and the poison knife. They needed mercury for that, however the other ingredient they needed (poisoned flour) never made it into the game. I honestly was suprised that no one ever really brought up the whole Ardent having the mercury thing. At the time what were the odds there were 2 different mercury in the game? And would you all have even known there could be 2 of an ingredient. Not saying that he should have been lynched there for having the mercury, but I was suprised that it didn't bring up any quesiton marks for anyone at all, or become a subject matter.

I was kind of torn on what to do with the potion and ingredients that I had. I figured that one of Path/Pass/me would be the one to die that night and I was thinking that the blind spell wasn't really that powerful, so I wasn't quite sure what to do and who to give things to, as I thought we were all three at equal risk.

[LoneStarGirl]

anybody message tanglewood? I am ready for a new game!

[Passacaglia]

BK sent me a message, so I assume he sent one to tangle, too.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by Alan T

To answer some of your questions Pass..

No the names didnt mean anything... They were there just for flavor and for people to wonder what the names did

Day 3 - I wasnt sure why Swaggs didnt make the other potion when he made the holy water one. At first I thought he wasn't going to make it at all in fear that it would help the bad guys. but right at the end of the day he put the order in to make it and didnt leave a conditional order to pass it or use it on anyone. So the wolves got it.

Day 4 - DT had mercury that Ardent got when he killed him, however the same night that Ardent killed DT , he also found his own mercury in the store room. So he went from 0 mercury to suddenly 2 mercury. The reason they killed DT was because the two recipes the bad guys started with was for the poison potion and the poison knife. They needed mercury for that, however the other ingredient they needed (poisoned flour) never made it into the game. I honestly was suprised that no one ever really brought up the whole Ardent having the mercury thing. At the time what were the odds there were 2 different mercury in the game? And would you all have even known there could be 2 of an ingredient. Not saying that he should have been lynched there for having the mercury, but I was suprised that it didn't bring up any quesiton marks for anyone at all, or become a subject matter.

Actually I think Imentioned about the mercury, We knew about doubles by then, and I tossed it out there, but it might have gootten over looked a bit. Course Iknew he found some too.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

anybody message tanglewood? I am ready for a new game!

Tangle said he was getting back from vacation yesterday. Hopefully he'll check in today or tomorrow with his game. If not we'll start up Pass's game for a start of early next week.