Maximum Football??? - Page 30

astrosfan64 · 02-26-2006, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Isn't BaboonHeart also Hell Altantic. I don't feel like looking through this whole thread, but for some reason I am linking him to this guy as well.

I guessed it was him, but I could be incorrect.

Antmeister · 02-26-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

I guessed it was him, but I could be incorrect.

If it's Hell Atlantic, he should be a writer for Saturday Night Live or some other comedy show. HIs stuff is hilarious.

Anthony · 02-26-2006, 10:27 AM

nope, just Dean Houston.

astrosfan64 · 02-26-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

nope, just Dean Houston.

HA, that was still a trolling masterpiece. Today is a slow day, can you provide an encore for entertainment?

Bonegavel · 02-26-2006, 11:48 AM

BaboonHeart is my favorite personality over there right now. Classic.

MizzouRah · 02-26-2006, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

BaboonHeart is my favorite personality over there right now. Classic.

Me too. I don't know what's better, his posts or the people that seriously respond to them.

MJ4H · 02-26-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaboonHeart

This game will go down in the history of games as being the best ever for football I think. I have never seen so many people so excited about something before like this. Some are even MAD it is not out! That means it is a good game. I am hoping that when it comes out I can get it at Wal Mart and then I will act sick from school and play all day for 2 days if I can convince my mom I am really sick, which is not so hard to do because all I have to say is I dont feel good and she says ok and then goes to work, and then I play my RPG stuff all day until she gets home but then I have to act like I dont feel so good but a little better when she gets home so she doesnt get suspectful of me being really ok. I dont feel too bad about because everyone does it and I am sure when she was in school she did the same thing, it doesnt mean I am a bad person or anything. In our RPG private club we started, we all try to get sick on the same day so we can play at the same time all day. It is private only, so don't ask to be in, besides it is really for people in my school but only those who can complete certain levels and until you do you cannot be in the club. That keeps annoying people like skidmark out, but if he ever did good enough to be in the club we would think of something else to keep him out. My brother wanted me to play JV football but I told him I didnt know anything about touchdowns too much, so he just told me to keep playing my RPG after I tore him up in a few of them, he never wants to play anymore so I know he has total respect for my abilities.

best. post. ever.

DaddyTorgo · 02-26-2006, 02:24 PM

YES! We have a GroundCat sighting at the MF boards!

DaddyTorgo · 02-26-2006, 02:27 PM

dola

that's what i get for posting in the thread before catching up

Airhog · 02-26-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Ummm...weren't you the one who deleted it? Or was it Airhog?

Oh, and I lost 820 posts when that thread was deleted...

And DAMN! I missed some amazing stuff in this thread yesterday.

I dont remember deleting the second thread killer thread. I did kill the orginal one though, and that has to stand for something around here dammit!

biological warrior · 02-26-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Ummm...weren't you the one who deleted it? Or was it Airhog?

Oh, and I lost 820 posts when that thread was deleted...

And DAMN! I missed some amazing stuff in this thread yesterday.

Nope, my alter ego never did delete it. I remember that the last few posts lead to it being deleted though.

JeeberD · 02-26-2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bee

I believe he's referring to someone posting as "wig". I don't think he posted in the main forum, but one of the subforums.

And Mr Bee wins a kewpie doll...

Antmeister · 02-26-2006, 06:52 PM

You know, I am actually feeling bad for the guy. While looking through the other message boards, I discovered that his game was advertised on the big screen in Sept. 2004. If the game would have completed then, he would have sold a lot of freaking copies. It seems that he is constantly missing the boat as you can see from the threads below.

Here are some screenshots from the game:
http://pc.gamezone.com/gamesell/screens/s25389_0.htm

Big Screen Discussion:
http://www.maximum-football.com/pres...sept_04_04.htm
http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=863&
http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?a...f=2&t=843&st=0

Here is a similar poll to ours that was created in June of 2004:
http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?a...f=2&t=798&st=0

Here are the same complaints that we addressed and this was in February of 2004:
http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=732&

And here is one of the promised release dates:
http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=445&

For what it's worth, the guy doesn't seem to be a jerk. I truly think the reason why he has delayed this game for so long is that he is somehow lacking confidence in his product. I think he is trying to make the perfect football game that will suit the needs of everybody and it is just not possible.

I actually hope he does at least modestly well so that he can continue his dream and hopefully learn from all the mistakes that he made in dealing with the public, false release dates, his feelings about other indie developers, etc.

It's just sad that now he is on the verge of finally selling this game and he has already decided to give off a bad image of himself. And while I do understand why his wife stood up for him, she is a bad choice for a Public Relations person.

Other than that I actually wish him luck on future games.

Toddzilla · 02-26-2006, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

For what it's worth, the guy doesn't seem to be a jerk. I truly think the reason why he has delayed this game for so long is that he is somehow lacking confidence in his product. I think he is trying to make the perfect football game that will suit the needs of everybody and it is just not possible.

I think the reason he is portrayed as a jerk is not because the game has suffered inmnumerable delays and proken promises of release - which IMO is plenty reason to be qualified as a jerk.

He's a jerk because of the way he shat all over text-sims and the people who liked them. I do not have the links to his exact posts, but it is safe to say that his reputation as a jerk was well-earned by the FOFC community and that, I believe, is the prevailing reason why so many of us take so much pleasure watching the jerk fall on his face over and over again.

Antmeister · 02-26-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I think the reason he is portrayed as a jerk is not because the game has suffered inmnumerable delays and proken promises of release - which IMO is plenty reason to be qualified as a jerk.

He's a jerk because of the way he shat all over text-sims and the people who liked them. I do not have the links to his exact posts, but it is safe to say that his reputation as a jerk was well-earned by the FOFC community and that, I believe, is the prevailing reason why so many of us take so much pleasure watching the jerk fall on his face over and over again.

I guess I should have rephrased and/or elaborated on what I meant. To the text sim developers/comminunity...yeah he is a jerk.

To other indie developers and 3D designers, he is actually very supportive. He is linked to a number of boards helping out others and doesn't present that selfish side.

In other words, he has the potential to be a pretty good guy if he had presented that helpful, non-combative side when it came to this game. So yes, I agree he is a jerk when it comes to dealing with the text sim community at large.

Bee · 02-26-2006, 09:26 PM

Probably a pretty big mistake pissing off the text-simmers because anyone interested in graphics won't be very impressed with the game. His base right now is pretty limited to CFL fans and FPSFB fans who haven't moved on to text sims or more graphic style football games. I think if he had been less of an ass, he could have doubled his customer base with the text simmers. But who knows, maybe there are more CFL fans than I realize.

Antmeister · 02-26-2006, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bee

Probably a pretty big mistake pissing off the text-simmers because anyone interested in graphics won't be very impressed with the game. His base right now is pretty limited to CFL fans and FPSFB fans who haven't moved on to text sims or more graphic style football games. I think if he had been less of an ass, he could have doubled his customer base with the text simmers. But who knows, maybe there are more CFL fans than I realize.

Good point. I don't know how many CFL fans there are, but the ones that I have read about are more than a little frustrated with the delays at well.

Dutch · 02-26-2006, 09:45 PM

Of course, every single last screen shot has featured American cities traditionally associated with the NFL. And in the latest movie, the Pittsburgh team might make you think about the Pittsburgh Steelers. So much for Canada.

Anyway, I wish the game success. If it's good, David Winters and Matrix Games will be properly rewarded for their trouble ragardless of what a bunch of skeptical and spoiled rotten FOF fans think.

Shkspr · 02-26-2006, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch

Of course, every single last screen shot has featured American cities traditionally associated with the NFL.

Well, except for the ones in the screenshots section of the Maximum football site marked "Canadian."

The poor guy has enough other problems on his plate, let's at least grant him his Canuckophilia.

KWhit · 02-26-2006, 10:27 PM

This is an actual screenshot posted by Daivd Winter in the MF Forums.

Posting screenshots with typos is not a good idea.

Here's the thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm...age=1&#1072202

Wolfpack · 02-26-2006, 10:40 PM

Particularly if the typo is your own name....

Groundhog · 02-26-2006, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

This is an actual screenshot posted by David Winter in the MF Forums.

Posting screenshots with typos is not a good idea.

Here's the thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm...age=1&#1072202

I didn't even notice the typo; was too distracted by the portrait

KWhit · 02-26-2006, 10:41 PM

Yeah. Which is why I assumed it was a typo and not a misspelling. Surely he knows how to spell his own name, right?

Antmeister · 02-26-2006, 10:44 PM

ok......wow.....his own name.

Rizon · 02-26-2006, 11:37 PM

Ping: Vince Young

Hurst2112 · 02-27-2006, 01:40 AM

DAIVD's NOT HERE!

Antmeister · 02-27-2006, 01:50 AM

I guess I missed this one earlier, but a new video was released by Erik. For some reason, I am getting really concerned that people are easily getting burnt in this game. If you notice, the other team completed 1 out of 4 passes and that one pass was a touchdown. The other thing that concerns me is that 3 players have a different color uniform than the rest of their team. O

Other than that, I wish they would show examples of how you customize the game. Since that is supposed to be the selling feature, they sure are catering to it with the screenshots and videos they provide.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1072052

Eaglesfan27 · 02-27-2006, 01:51 AM

I can't believe no one in that thread has commented on the typo, yet.

Antmeister · 02-27-2006, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I can't believe no one in that thread has commented on the typo, yet.

I think the trolls are tiring and the supporters and basically ignoring it.

Hurst2112 · 02-27-2006, 02:02 AM

that player he created looks like a cross between bryce paup and paul ott caruth.

Shkspr · 02-27-2006, 02:07 AM

Okay, so the sequence of downs goes:

1 and 10 from the 20
2 and 11 from the 18
3 and 09 from the 20
4 and 01 from the 27

Yeah, that down and distance thing...you...you might wanna take a look at that.

Antmeister · 02-27-2006, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Okay, so the sequence of downs goes:

1 and 10 from the 20
2 and 11 from the 18
3 and 09 from the 20
4 and 01 from the 27

Yeah, that down and distance thing...you...you might wanna take a look at that.

Damn....good catch. And what's sad is that the beta testers who play it didn't even notice it. Wow!

Antmeister · 02-27-2006, 02:25 AM

dola....there seems to be a number of other reasons why this didn't go live. The installer issue seems like a major excuse and the fact that there is no demo is also a bad sign.

Shkspr · 02-27-2006, 02:30 AM

I just wish the damn game would ship so I can figure out whether or not we have to email Georgia Tech and the NCAA about this mascot thing...

Antmeister · 02-27-2006, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

I just wish the damn game would ship so I can figure out whether or not we have to email Georgia Tech and the NCAA about this mascot thing...

lol....I laughed when I saw what cthomer posted at Matrix.

By the way did you notice how the offensive lineman glide around when they pass block. It's really odd. But it seems when anyone mentions any gliding motion, David usually attributes it to how the video was captured.

Shkspr · 02-27-2006, 02:36 AM

I was too busy watching the robotic shuffle of players as they wandered back to the huddle.

TazFTW · 02-27-2006, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

The other thing that concerns me is that 3 players have a different color uniform than the rest of their team.

I think that is how the game makes uniforms dirty.

Shkspr · 02-27-2006, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

lol....I laughed when I saw what cthomer posted at Matrix.

At least it'll be harder for folks to track down a current copyright holder on the USFL Washington Federals logo:

Antmeister · 02-27-2006, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

At least it'll be harder for folks to track down a current copyright holder on the USFL Washington Federals logo:

You are on a roll.

I do wonder if these will exist in the gold release. Never mind....it already went gold....I think.

Antmeister · 02-27-2006, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TazFTW

I think that is how the game makes uniforms dirty.

I guess I could go with that. Maybe it indicates who is playing their asses off. So I guess that means only 3 players.

JeffR · 02-27-2006, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

I was too busy watching the robotic shuffle of players as they wandered back to the huddle.

Anybody else reminded of that old Saturday Night Live bit where Eddie Murphy tries to walk like a white guy?

yabanci · 02-27-2006, 06:35 AM

From the looks of the new movie, it appears they modeled the tackling on bowling pins. And it's not hard to knock a tight end flat on his ass. It happens within one second on every play.

Bee · 02-27-2006, 07:33 AM

Looking over the Matrix boards this morning, I see that playoffs are handled manually? The more I hear, the more I think this isn't actually a game but just a framework for people to develop mods. Sadly, based on the screenshots, videos and things that have been pointed out (like the down and yardage errors!)...it looks like the framework is incredibly weak.

At first, I felt sorry for Matrix...now I feel sorry for people who buy this game expecting a $40 or $50 game.

fantastic flying froggies · 02-27-2006, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

I was too busy watching the robotic shuffle of players as they wandered back to the huddle.

It reminded me more of Return of the Living Dead.

That's settled then, if I ever buy this game (AH! fat chance!

), my team will be called the New York Zombies...

Toddzilla · 02-27-2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Okay, so the sequence of downs goes:

1 and 10 from the 20
2 and 11 from the 18
3 and 09 from the 20
4 and 01 from the 27

Yeah, that down and distance thing...you...you might wanna take a look at that.

That's MAXIMUM CUSTOMIZATION, baby! Yeccchh. It should be called Approximate Football.

FrogMan · 02-27-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

I was too busy watching the robotic shuffle of players as they wandered back to the huddle.

where you see robotic shuffle, I see people trying to moonwalk but going forward, weehee

FM

cthomer5000 · 02-27-2006, 09:03 AM

They really do have gigantic feet.

QuikSand · 02-27-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shkspr

At least it'll be harder for folks to track down a current copyright holder on the USFL Washington Federals logo:

Dude, after 99 years, they enter the public domain. It's free!

What?!?!?

Bee · 02-27-2006, 09:19 AM

I see cthomer didn't get a response yet on his Ga Tech question....other than the guy who said since they put the logo in a "C", mirrored it, and changed the color, it's not the same logo.

cthomer5000 · 02-27-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bee

I see cthomer didn't get a response yet on his Ga Tech question....other than the guy who said since they put the logo in a "C", mirrored it, and changed the color, it's not the same logo.

Completely different logo.

02-26-2006, 06:52 PM	#1463
Antmeister Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At the corner of Beat Street and Electric Avenue	You know, I am actually feeling bad for the guy. While looking through the other message boards, I discovered that his game was advertised on the big screen in Sept. 2004. If the game would have completed then, he would have sold a lot of freaking copies. It seems that he is constantly missing the boat as you can see from the threads below. Here are some screenshots from the game: http://pc.gamezone.com/gamesell/screens/s25389_0.htm Big Screen Discussion: http://www.maximum-football.com/pres...sept_04_04.htm http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=863& http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?a...f=2&t=843&st=0 Here is a similar poll to ours that was created in June of 2004: http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?a...f=2&t=798&st=0 Here are the same complaints that we addressed and this was in February of 2004: http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=732& And here is one of the promised release dates: http://maxfb.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=445& For what it's worth, the guy doesn't seem to be a jerk. I truly think the reason why he has delayed this game for so long is that he is somehow lacking confidence in his product. I think he is trying to make the perfect football game that will suit the needs of everybody and it is just not possible. I actually hope he does at least modestly well so that he can continue his dream and hopefully learn from all the mistakes that he made in dealing with the public, false release dates, his feelings about other indie developers, etc. It's just sad that now he is on the verge of finally selling this game and he has already decided to give off a bad image of himself. And while I do understand why his wife stood up for him, she is a bad choice for a Public Relations person. Other than that I actually wish him luck on future games. __________________ "I'm ready to bury the hatchet, but don't fuck with me" - Schmidty "Box me once, shame on Skydog. Box me twice. Shame on me. Box me 3 times, just fucking ban my ass...." - stevew

02-26-2006, 10:27 PM	#1470
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	This is an actual screenshot posted by Daivd Winter in the MF Forums. Posting screenshots with typos is not a good idea. Here's the thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm...age=1&#1072202 Last edited by KWhit : 03-01-2006 at 01:43 PM.

02-26-2006, 10:44 PM	#1474
Antmeister Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At the corner of Beat Street and Electric Avenue	ok......wow.....his own name. __________________ "I'm ready to bury the hatchet, but don't fuck with me" - Schmidty "Box me once, shame on Skydog. Box me twice. Shame on me. Box me 3 times, just fucking ban my ass...." - stevew

02-27-2006, 01:40 AM	#1476
Hurst2112 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Minneapolis	DAIVD's NOT HERE! __________________ http://www.myspace.com/longliveanalog

02-27-2006, 01:50 AM	#1477
Antmeister Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At the corner of Beat Street and Electric Avenue	I guess I missed this one earlier, but a new video was released by Erik. For some reason, I am getting really concerned that people are easily getting burnt in this game. If you notice, the other team completed 1 out of 4 passes and that one pass was a touchdown. The other thing that concerns me is that 3 players have a different color uniform than the rest of their team. O Other than that, I wish they would show examples of how you customize the game. Since that is supposed to be the selling feature, they sure are catering to it with the screenshots and videos they provide. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1072052 __________________ "I'm ready to bury the hatchet, but don't fuck with me" - Schmidty "Box me once, shame on Skydog. Box me twice. Shame on me. Box me 3 times, just fucking ban my ass...." - stevew

02-26-2006, 10:27 AM	#1453
Anthony Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Astoria, NY, USA	nope, just Dean Houston.

02-26-2006, 11:48 AM	#1455
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	BaboonHeart is my favorite personality over there right now. Classic.

02-26-2006, 02:24 PM	#1458
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	YES! We have a GroundCat sighting at the MF boards!

02-26-2006, 02:27 PM	#1459
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	dola that's what i get for posting in the thread before catching up

02-26-2006, 09:26 PM	#1466
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Probably a pretty big mistake pissing off the text-simmers because anyone interested in graphics won't be very impressed with the game. His base right now is pretty limited to CFL fans and FPSFB fans who haven't moved on to text sims or more graphic style football games. I think if he had been less of an ass, he could have doubled his customer base with the text simmers. But who knows, maybe there are more CFL fans than I realize.

02-26-2006, 09:45 PM	#1468
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	Of course, every single last screen shot has featured American cities traditionally associated with the NFL. And in the latest movie, the Pittsburgh team might make you think about the Pittsburgh Steelers. So much for Canada. Anyway, I wish the game success. If it's good, David Winters and Matrix Games will be properly rewarded for their trouble ragardless of what a bunch of skeptical and spoiled rotten FOF fans think.

02-26-2006, 10:40 PM	#1471
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	Particularly if the typo is your own name....

02-26-2006, 10:41 PM	#1473
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	Yeah. Which is why I assumed it was a typo and not a misspelling. Surely he knows how to spell his own name, right?

02-27-2006, 01:51 AM	#1478
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	I can't believe no one in that thread has commented on the typo, yet. __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

02-27-2006, 02:02 AM	#1480
Hurst2112 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Minneapolis	that player he created looks like a cross between bryce paup and paul ott caruth. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/longliveanalog

02-27-2006, 02:07 AM	#1481
Shkspr College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Amarillo, TX	Okay, so the sequence of downs goes: 1 and 10 from the 20 2 and 11 from the 18 3 and 09 from the 20 4 and 01 from the 27 Yeah, that down and distance thing...you...you might wanna take a look at that.

02-27-2006, 02:25 AM	#1483
Antmeister Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At the corner of Beat Street and Electric Avenue	dola....there seems to be a number of other reasons why this didn't go live. The installer issue seems like a major excuse and the fact that there is no demo is also a bad sign. __________________ "I'm ready to bury the hatchet, but don't fuck with me" - Schmidty "Box me once, shame on Skydog. Box me twice. Shame on me. Box me 3 times, just fucking ban my ass...." - stevew

02-27-2006, 02:30 AM	#1484
Shkspr College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Amarillo, TX	I just wish the damn game would ship so I can figure out whether or not we have to email Georgia Tech and the NCAA about this mascot thing...

02-27-2006, 02:36 AM	#1486
Shkspr College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Amarillo, TX	I was too busy watching the robotic shuffle of players as they wandered back to the huddle.

02-27-2006, 06:35 AM	#1492
yabanci College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jun 2003	From the looks of the new movie, it appears they modeled the tackling on bowling pins. And it's not hard to knock a tight end flat on his ass. It happens within one second on every play.

02-27-2006, 07:33 AM	#1493
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Looking over the Matrix boards this morning, I see that playoffs are handled manually? The more I hear, the more I think this isn't actually a game but just a framework for people to develop mods. Sadly, based on the screenshots, videos and things that have been pointed out (like the down and yardage errors!)...it looks like the framework is incredibly weak. At first, I felt sorry for Matrix...now I feel sorry for people who buy this game expecting a $40 or $50 game. Last edited by Bee : 02-27-2006 at 07:33 AM.

02-27-2006, 09:19 AM	#1499
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I see cthomer didn't get a response yet on his Ga Tech question....other than the guy who said since they put the logo in a "C", mirrored it, and changed the color, it's not the same logo.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)