Werewolf XXXIII: Animal Farm (SEE POST #4 FOR ALL UPDATES)

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I remember it completely different Blade. If I have to, I'll go back digging once again through posts, but if I remember correctly, the point I started feeling really off on you was that you attacked me when I was trying to encourage moses and clover to work with swaggs and building a CoT. The more the discussion went, the more you dug in.

Shortly after Bek came out of nowhere and started defending you and attacking to. When both you and Bek were among the people who jumped on Greyfooroo for "no reason" other than a gut-feel you don't expect me to be suspicious?

I don't think I made an incorrect comment here at all.. I am pretty sure it was that day that made me distrust you since now 2 days later I still don't understand why you would argue against it.

I attacked the idea swaggs presented, one that you and hoops supported. I dont believe i attacked you on that point until after the bek lynch, just the idea. Im sure we can both go digging if you would like

[hoopsguy]

There is one point that RealDeal makes that I completely agree with - we need to have some clarity about the night lynches. Learning about Bullet in particular would go a long ways towards understanding the writeups we have received up to this point.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Alan T

That was exactly my point that got me distrusting you which then caused you to attack me for 3 days! We need facts, we had a good plan on how to get facts into the game without losing any abilities and without any reveals.. and you argued really strongly against it.

I feel we're going into circles here

I just think with all seer roles they become more valuable the longer you wait. Now, granted, beks death made your idea look smarter. And if there is only one left then maybe he should reveal. I think how its percieved is who reveals though.

Im willing to allow facts to come out in the open, but i dont think day 3 was the right time. I think today is really the first day they should consider it.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I attacked the idea swaggs presented, one that you and hoops supported. I dont believe i attacked you on that point until after the bek lynch, just the idea. Im sure we can both go digging if you would like

Well neither of us have thrown insults at each other like happened with other people, so when I say attack its obviously not meaning you came after me with a crowbar.

However the entire basis on my distrust for you comes from that afternoon where you refused to go along with what seemingly sounded like an excellent idea for us to use to work with facts finally.

Since then every thing you do I dig to see what sneaky things you are up to and it just makes me more and more distrust you. I think I'm about to give up on you. Vote for me if you want to, but i haven't lied once and have come out with any and every evidence I could supporting my beliefs. I honestly admit I made some mistakes this game, and I still go on. I'm not taking credit for things trying to build trust, or trying to hide under the radar.

Its just gotten to the point where you feel like you still have a grudge for me and admitted earlier in the game that you were after me ever since day 1. Anything i say doesn't matter to you, you still will be distrustful of me. If you truly are good, then we likely will cause problems for our side by distracting everyone so much and doing the wolves work for them. If you are bad, then you are doing an excellent job of being an in your face wolf daring people to want to lynch you.

I don't know if you are a lost cause or not at this point Blade, but we clearly aren't getting anywhere.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I just think with all seer roles they become more valuable the longer you wait. Now, granted, beks death made your idea look smarter. And if there is only one left then maybe he should reveal. I think how its percieved is who reveals though.

Im willing to allow facts to come out in the open, but i dont think day 3 was the right time. I think today is really the first day they should consider it.

You keep arguing here against a point that I never made. I never once said I wanted moses or clover to role reveal.

I wanted them to:

1) Send a PM to swaggs (who was and is trusted fully) with their findings.
2) Set up code in the PM to pass future info along to Swaggs so as to make the PM not wasted.

By doing that, Swaggs can pass along the info on the lynches and night kills, has his own private circle of trust and can continue gathering the information.

I still dont understand why you felt this was such a bad idea that day.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

OK, Clover (the now-deceased Bek) sees lynch victims and Moses (Chubby?) sees night kills.

A lot of our debate was around Pilkington, the lynch on Day 2. Bek would have had insight into whether he was good or bad.

Chubby would have gained this information upon Bek's death at the end of Day 3. However, Path clarified that the knowledge transfer (75%) would be based on what the person knew at time of death. So you could infer that he would learn Bek's role because he received the PM, which only happens upon the death of the counter-part seer.

Chubby would not know the results of last night's lynch in this scenario. However, his response to it was that it reinforced the idea that no changes to Rules = bad guy lynched. I agree with this theory (Blade still believes it rotates, Gram speculated rules change when tie is involved) but Chubby would not know this information because he only gets information on night kills going forward. He does not assume the ability to get both day and night kill information (again, I asked Path for clarification on this earlier in the thread).

OK, so if we follow this through, then Chubby did learn that we killed a bad guy on Night 2. This is why he is convinced on the rules changes - it certainly wasn't that he believed an idea I floated as I was evil incarnate to him and still sit near the bottom of his trust list. But he knows that Bullet was not Pilkington.

So, one step further - we got a Revolutionary (activating the Sympathizer), Squealer, or possibly the Sympathizer (don't know how he shows up). And Pilkington blew his 90% attack on Night 2 or possibly Night 3.

There are a number of assumptions here based on the Bek/Chubby relationship. The whole house of cards comes tumbling down if these assumptions are not valid. But if they are, then the game is really opening up.

Hoops, i know this is odd of me to question myself, but bear with me. Here are the scenarios is see here:
1.Chubby is moses, got beks info
2.chubby is moses, did not gets bek info(i dont find this likely)
3.Chubby is a normal villager (not likely to me either, but possible i suppose)
4.Chubby is seer or actual bodyguard(Again, i dont find it likely...he hasnt been around much to say either way, and the few times he was he called hoops' claims as total lies. under this scenario, it would make sense for him to call hoops' bluff if he is the actual bodyguard(and blocked a kill on night 2, hence knowing what happened) or seer(hoops is a popular scan target early in games)
5.Chubby is a bad guy ( I see this as 2nd most likely, behind moses, and increasing due to one comment alanT made about chubby's view on bullet and the rule changes)

[Fouts]

Ok, you 3 (alan, blade, hoops) post a ton of stuff, and its hard to sift through looking for gold nuggets. Two things stand out to me.

1) Nobody has received a PM detailing the lynch/night kills. I'm trying to figure out a good reason why neither Clover or Moses have done this (besides being dead).

2) Chubby claims to be an ordinary sheep. Has anyone else claimed to be a regular animal?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well neither of us have thrown insults at each other like happened with other people, so when I say attack its obviously not meaning you came after me with a crowbar.

However the entire basis on my distrust for you comes from that afternoon where you refused to go along with what seemingly sounded like an excellent idea for us to use to work with facts finally.

Since then every thing you do I dig to see what sneaky things you are up to and it just makes me more and more distrust you. I think I'm about to give up on you. Vote for me if you want to, but i haven't lied once and have come out with any and every evidence I could supporting my beliefs. I honestly admit I made some mistakes this game, and I still go on. I'm not taking credit for things trying to build trust, or trying to hide under the radar.

Its just gotten to the point where you feel like you still have a grudge for me and admitted earlier in the game that you were after me ever since day 1. Anything i say doesn't matter to you, you still will be distrustful of me. If you truly are good, then we likely will cause problems for our side by distracting everyone so much and doing the wolves work for them. If you are bad, then you are doing an excellent job of being an in your face wolf daring people to want to lynch you.

I don't know if you are a lost cause or not at this point Blade, but we clearly aren't getting anywhere.

If you think im a lost cause, that all fine. Im trying to work through countless scenarios. I really dont see you discussing multiple ideas, though you did go back and look at chubby's post which i appreciate. But i think you are ignoring the work im doing to either bring our two sides together or root out the moles pushing us apart.

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You keep arguing here against a point that I never made. I never once said I wanted moses or clover to role reveal.

I wanted them to:

1) Send a PM to swaggs (who was and is trusted fully) with their findings.
2) Set up code in the PM to pass future info along to Swaggs so as to make the PM not wasted.

By doing that, Swaggs can pass along the info on the lynches and night kills, has his own private circle of trust and can continue gathering the information.

I still dont understand why you felt this was such a bad idea that day.

Great ideas. You are trustworthy in my book. Moses/Clover please do this.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Ok, you 3 (alan, blade, hoops) post a ton of stuff, and its hard to sift through looking for gold nuggets. Two things stand out to me.

1) Nobody has received a PM detailing the lynch/night kills. I'm trying to figure out a good reason why neither Clover or Moses have done this (besides being dead).

2) Chubby claims to be an ordinary sheep. Has anyone else claimed to be a regular animal?

Fouts before I answer this question, I am curious.. are you a common animal? if so? what type?

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Fouts before I answer this question, I am curious.. are you a common animal? if so? what type?

I don't know. Like I said I am a regular Barnyard Animal.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Fouts

I don't know. Like I said I am a regular Barnyard Animal.

Thats funny, because before you replaced Ardent, he said he was an ordinary sheep.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You keep arguing here against a point that I never made. I never once said I wanted moses or clover to role reveal.

I wanted them to:

1) Send a PM to swaggs (who was and is trusted fully) with their findings.
2) Set up code in the PM to pass future info along to Swaggs so as to make the PM not wasted.

By doing that, Swaggs can pass along the info on the lynches and night kills, has his own private circle of trust and can continue gathering the information.

I still dont understand why you felt this was such a bad idea that day.

When i say reveal, i mean reveal their info. Through swaggs, through anyone. I see two keys to why not revealing is good. Wolves dont know who has died either. If pilkington and their seer are dead, they have no idea. For all they know they went out and killed pilkington night 1. They need information just as much as we do so they have a better idea of who to support.

The second reason is hiding. Once the bad guys know a half seer is still alive, they will try to mislead him. They will vote seperately, accuse each other, do everything to mitigate the half seer's effects. If they dont reveal, bad guys can assume their dead and stop working as a group. Then, BAM, we got a nice little group. This is what i viewed you, hoops, and realdeal doing. You felt bek was what i claimed, so knew you could team up and win this thing. And, to be fair, your group has dictated the lynch the past 2 days.

Do you understand those reasons, and if not please explain so we can continue working together

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Thats funny, because before you replaced Ardent, he said he was an ordinary sheep.

Weird. I wonder if he made it up, were the rest of you pm'd an animal type?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Ah. #6. Ya'll leave the sheep alone. I bite.

Since you already said you got the pm ardent received just didnt know who's it was... here is the story he came up with. You might want to familarize yourself with anything else he said before trying to make up stuff for us

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Since you already said you got the pm ardent received just didnt know who's it was... here is the story he came up with. You might want to familarize yourself with anything else he said before trying to make up stuff for us

Don't put words in my mouth. I said I got a PM, but I didn't know whose it was. Path posted later that I replaced Ardent. I am not making things up.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Weird. I wonder if he made it up, were the rest of you pm'd an animal type?

My PM said i was a pig, but it also mentioned i was a barnyard animal. But it clearly said i was a pig.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

When i say reveal, i mean reveal their info. Through swaggs, through anyone. I see two keys to why not revealing is good. Wolves dont know who has died either. If pilkington and their seer are dead, they have no idea. For all they know they went out and killed pilkington night 1. They need information just as much as we do so they have a better idea of who to support.

The second reason is hiding. Once the bad guys know a half seer is still alive, they will try to mislead him. They will vote seperately, accuse each other, do everything to mitigate the half seer's effects. If they dont reveal, bad guys can assume their dead and stop working as a group. Then, BAM, we got a nice little group. This is what i viewed you, hoops, and realdeal doing. You felt bek was what i claimed, so knew you could team up and win this thing. And, to be fair, your group has dictated the lynch the past 2 days.

Do you understand those reasons, and if not please explain so we can continue working together

I might have missed it at the time, but I dont remember you coming out protecting Bek that vote saying he was Clover until after the lynch happened. I can see your point, I just disagree with it. The reason why is the bad guys don't know whats around either, however the odds are if they blindly kill people they have a much better chance of hitting someone they want vs us. So for us the information in ways that don't reveal roles is more important.

I guess the question that was asked before, but i don't recall an answer is without information, how do you think we should form Circles of Trust?

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

My PM said i was a pig, but it also mentioned i was a barnyard animal. But it clearly said i was a pig.

Well, if both are mentioned, then there goes that theory.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Weird. I wonder if he made it up, were the rest of you pm'd an animal type?

Yep, I already said earlier in the thread that I was a sheep. I found your post interesting because I kept a little list next to me of everyone else claiming to be a sheep. Ardent's name was on that list, so when you came out asking that, it set off an alarm for me.

I figured I would set the bait and see what I caught. So either you or Ardent are lying is my guess, and since both play the same role, it probably doesn't matter which.

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Yep, I already said earlier in the thread that I was a sheep. I found your post interesting because I kept a little list next to me of everyone else claiming to be a sheep. Ardent's name was on that list, so when you came out asking that, it set off an alarm for me.

I figured I would set the bait and see what I caught. So either you or Ardent are lying is my guess, and since both play the same role, it probably doesn't matter which.

Instead of either of us lying, can it be possible that Path never told me?

[Alan T]

Another interesting thought thats running through my mind right now.. with all the common barnyard animals around, we had 4 people claiming to be ordinary sheep, which was odd to me.. Since then we've found Ardent apparently was lying, Chubby (who blade claims isnt a sheep is his belief), BrianD who I feel was bad too.

Kind of funny if the game is broken open just because of people lying about being sheep.

[Fouts]

I will say that ardent sent me a message last night indicating he was a sheep. I am waiting on a reply from path.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I might have missed it at the time, but I dont remember you coming out protecting Bek that vote saying he was Clover until after the lynch happened. I can see your point, I just disagree with it. The reason why is the bad guys don't know whats around either, however the odds are if they blindly kill people they have a much better chance of hitting someone they want vs us. So for us the information in ways that don't reveal roles is more important.

I guess the question that was asked before, but i don't recall an answer is without information, how do you think we should form Circles of Trust?

If you go back to that day, you will notice i didnt post at all the final few hours. I left before hoops started the bandwagon on bek. I had economics and my marketing club that afternoon(which in AZ is when the pre-deadline stuff all goes down).

As for COT, i think our seers are our key. I just didnt want them revealing on day 3(even through swaggs). I think the fact everyone assume they are dead is a huge victory for us if one is still alive. The wolves will have stopped worrying about being associated or look suspicious, since no one will know if we lynch good or bad guys. Im hoping ones alive, and i hope he reveals either tonight or tomorrow night. But i think day 3 is too early. Your plan is fine, my problem with it was the timing.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Instead of either of us lying, can it be possible that Path never told me?

Anything is possible, but most GMs usually have the roles in notepad or somewhere that they cut and paste out. I would just assume he would cut and paste and send you the same role, or forward the one he sent Ardent.

I'm pretty sure I'm willing to take a chance on that and vote you though based on this.

[Alan T]

Just to make it official

Unvote Goldeneagle
Vote fouts

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Anything is possible, but most GMs usually have the roles in notepad or somewhere that they cut and paste out. I would just assume he would cut and paste and send you the same role, or forward the one he sent Ardent.

I'm pretty sure I'm willing to take a chance on that and vote you though based on this.

Ok, vote me out because path didn't keep the initial roles. Good idea.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Fouts

I will say that ardent sent me a message last night indicating he was a sheep. I am waiting on a reply from path.

Why would ardent send you a pm saying he was a sheep when he didn't know you received a different pm than him?

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Why would ardent send you a pm saying he was a sheep when he didn't know you received a different pm than him?

I said he indicated he was a sheep. He was saying good luck with the game, and I thought the sheep part was a joke.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Why would ardent send you a pm saying he was a sheep when he didn't know you received a different pm than him?

Alan, I had to delete the initial role send outs because my inbox was full so this is a non-starter issue. Ardents original claim of sheep will do fine for game purposes.

[Alan T]

baaaaaah (no pun intended) ok since path posted something, and I doubt a GM would do it if it wasn't truly a mistake, I'll back off.

Just thought I caught a break and got you in a lie

My apologies

unvote Fouts
vote goldeneagle

[Passacaglia]

Here's a thought, out of nowhere. I think hoops might have alluded to this, something like Day 2. It's likely that there are very few revs. The fact that we don't get role reveals gives them a HUGE advantage, which means that their numbers should be small. Something like 2 or 3. Thus, we should look for people under the radar, instead of choosing factions.

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by path12

Alan, I had to delete the initial role send outs because my inbox was full so this is a non-starter issue. Ardents original claim of sheep will do fine for game purposes.

While I appreciate that the GM has backed me on this, it isn't fair for anyone to think this clears me of being a bad guy.

[Fouts]

And Alan, quit sweating me. I already said I trusted you.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Fouts

While I appreciate that the GM has backed me on this, it isn't fair for anyone to think this clears me of being a bad guy.

Agreed. It should not be construed as anything but the disorganization of the GM.

[Fouts]

For those that post a novel with each of their posts - less is more.

[Fouts]

Alan, can you share the animal types that you wrote down? I'm not sure I want to go through 30 pages to find that info out.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by path12

Barnyard Animals: Pigs, sheep, hens, horses, donkeys -- the villagers of the farm with no special powers.

From the rules post by path...2nd in the thread

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Alan, can you share the animal types that you wrote down? I'm not sure I want to go through 30 pages to find that info out.

I only wrote down the people who said they were a sheep.

Chubby, BrianD, myself and Ardent/you.

Just wrote it down because it sure seemed like alot of ordinary sheep to me and I found it odd.

[Alan T]

Hmm on second thought if there are 20 players and 5 types of animals, 4 sheep isnt odd I suppose..

Guess i fail at math. It just jumped out at me I guess though.

[Alan T]

That leads me to my next thought... shouldn't you be able to look at someone and say.. you know what.. Brian sure doesn't look like a sheep! why doesn't he have any wool, and walk upright???

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Hmm on second thought if there are 20 players and 5 types of animals, 4 sheep isnt odd I suppose..

Guess i fail at math. It just jumped out at me I guess though.

If you take out everyone with special powers, you've got a lot less than 20.

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I only wrote down the people who said they were a sheep.

Chubby, BrianD, myself and Ardent/you.

Just wrote it down because it sure seemed like alot of ordinary sheep to me and I found it odd.

Thanks, I was hoping everyone had chosen an animal type.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Hmm on second thought if there are 20 players and 5 types of animals, 4 sheep isnt odd I suppose..

Guess i fail at math. It just jumped out at me I guess though.

Note though, that 20 has 1 raven, 2 pigs pre-disposed to be special, 2 horses pre-disposed to be special, 1 donkey, and a human. Thats not even counting squeeler or the attack dogs.

The number is a lot lower then you might think

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

If you take out everyone with special powers, you've got a lot less than 20.

Well I'm assuming that Brian wasn't a sheep like he said. Blade seems to strongly infer that Chubby isn't one either. Its a bit more realistic in my head when I think about it, but a few days ago when I wrote it down, it sure seemed weird.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

That leads me to my next thought... shouldn't you be able to look at someone and say.. you know what.. Brian sure doesn't look like a sheep! why doesn't he have any wool, and walk upright???

What? For all you know, Brian could look very sheeplike! The only ones that really know that about each other are Blade and Bek, and they cleared each other..

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

What? For all you know, Brian could look very sheeplike! The only ones that really know that about each other are Blade and Bek, and they cleared each other..

When did Bek and Blade clear each other?

[path12]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

If you take out everyone with special powers, you've got a lot less than 20.

Every player was assigned a different kind of animal, just as every players role PM was worded differently, in order to prevent the "code word" phenomenon.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Alan T

When did Bek and Blade clear each other?

??? I never cleared bek, and he never cleared me. I just have assumptions based on his posts

[Passacaglia]

Urm, I was just joking around :P