Breakout Kings: Werewolf Style (Game over - village wins)

[Danny]

Narcizo, you had a great game as well. I actually think as a whole the village was a fantastic in a game they were the underdogs in.

[Narcizo]

I agree completely about the conversion mechanic as well. If it has to be in, and I'm not sure it does - but I guess if the GM wants people not to rely on vote analysis that makes sense - people should be aware that it exists but it shouldn't be something the convertee knows is going to happen to them.

I also think that having a completely hidden rule mechanic that has the potential to radically change the character of the game is a bit dubious. But again I can see that the idea was to lessen the value of vote analysis. However as a villager there's nothing more frustrating than playing in that sort of game where you have no idea what's going on. I always thought those sorts of games were more for the benefit of the GM and the wolves while the villagers are just the stooges put there to provide entertainment for the GM.

Something I learned GMing RPGs - as a GM you should never, ever rely on the players reacting in a certain way. They almost certainly never will. But that's what makes things interactive and interesting.

[Danny]

Narc, I think people give me too much credit as a wolf. I can do a good job helping coming up with wolf strategies, but overall I really think I am only a mediocre wolf.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I also think that having a completely hidden rule mechanic that has the potential to radically change the character of the game is a bit dubious. But again I can see that the idea was to lessen the value of vote analysis. However as a villager there's nothing more frustrating than playing in that sort of game where you have no idea what's going on. I always thought those sorts of games were more for the benefit of the GM and the wolves while the villagers are just the stooges put there to provide entertainment for the GM.

Having mystery in games is actually fun I think and not Not fun. I keep seeing people trying to break games and uberreveal things and force others to reveal things that can really take away a game's pizzazz. Since reveals really have the power to completely destroy a game having things in a game that are a mystery is sometimes the only way to combat that AND keep it fun for everybody. No I do not think any GM sits back and laughs at either side. Have you seen that in the past? GMs hide some things because they HAVE to otherwise people do their best to unravel all the rules. And really we've all played enough games that it is obvious that most any rule people can think of has been encountered before. I guess the only thing that a GM should do if it isn't obvious that there may be secrets in a game is to somewhere in the rules SAY that there may be things in a game that aren't listed in the rules. That way the whole argument is moot.

Actually it DID say about Ronnie that it was pretty unknown. And it was unknown even to the wolves. So there really could have been another wolf at the end. I really didn't understand Danny's logic that simply because he outed Pass that Pass was innocent. Danny could have known something about Pass and still been a wolf, they both could be wolves, they both could have been something else. But granted yes you telling us all the rules you had makes it unlikely that you're anything but villager. I guess that's what I mean about uberreveals for villagers. I guess the moral is, never give villagers choices. Give them powers they have to use if you want them to use them.

I kinda found that in my item games like Evil Dead and Portal, people tended to hang onto things unless they were a wolf and then they would use them immediately. Perhaps I should rethink the choice thing and force people to use things or lose them. Speaking of the players will do, Portal had several other things planned that I didn't get to do because of how fast that game went. IT was funny because I orioginally designed that game for a smaller crowd, then expanded it based on signups

[Danny]

Crimson, you have to find a balance I think with hidden info as it does make things harder on the village. One thing I think 100% though is that the village absolutely needs to know whether there is hidden info. There needs to be some clause in the rules about there may be hidden roles, items etc... Also that needs to be taken into account in regards to giving the wolves their powers and numbers.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I really didn't understand Danny's logic that simply because he outed Pass that Pass was innocent. Danny could have known something about Pass and still been a wolf, they both could be wolves, they both could have been something else.

I am not sure if I understand what you are saying exactly. I knew Pass was a villager because I was specifically told so. It also was clear that either we were both wolves or neither of us wolves as we both claimed the other was a villager.

[Danny]

Also, I think the whole point of the village is to try and figure out the hidden info. Thats why as a villager, especially vanilla I will always be as revealing and open as humanly possible.

You can't just have game where everything is hidden and no one ever reveals anything. Thats an easy game for the wolves or just blind luck if the village happens to win. Any hidden info has to be able to be figured out by a well playing village.

[Danny]

And I tried running a game like that and while it was very active and fun for most of the game, it was a total failure in the end, so I should know

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

Also, I think the whole point of the village is to try and figure out the hidden info. Thats why as a villager, especially vanilla I will always be as revealing and open as humanly possible.

You can't just have game where everything is hidden and no one ever reveals anything. Thats an easy game for the wolves or just blind luck if the village happens to win. Any hidden info has to be able to be figured out by a well playing village.

exactly. And I've been talking about this from more a game designer/runner perspective. Yes as villagers people want to reveal. So as a GM to keep them from doing so, when you have a role that can reveal you have to impose a negative for revealing, like getting killed etc. So very much like your package I think back to vegas where people were drumming up things like hey everybody tell us everything about your votes and bets and such. That kind of undermines the whole special ruleset really even though yes it trying to find wolves. I think that's why I more appreciate unusual abe games which are less about werewolves. That way people are more playing for themselves and less us vs them. Would like to see more nonWW games woven into the mix. As for WW itself I think that's why I have so many vanillas in my games because straight out reveals of so much stuff just makes it impossible for the wolves and thus it becomes more about voting and postreading.

[CrimsonFox]

I just realized I"m talking about Danny's package.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

And I tried running a game like that and while it was very active and fun for most of the game, it was a total failure in the end, so I should know

a game like what? And what was fun/what failed?

And really if it was fun then it was a success.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

Also, I think the whole point of the village is to try and figure out the hidden info. Thats why as a villager, especially vanilla I will always be as revealing and open as humanly possible.

You can't just have game where everything is hidden and no one ever reveals anything. Thats an easy game for the wolves or just blind luck if the village happens to win. Any hidden info has to be able to be figured out by a well playing village.

Maybe if the wolves were tied into your package somehow it would have made it less likely for you to reveal. Like if one wolf could also scan for packageperson and get an instant death out of it and person with package knew that?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

a game like what? And what was fun/what failed?

And really if it was fun then it was a success.

Well, it got ruined at the end. It was the Group Therapy Game. Everyone had a role, but role reveals were not allowed.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I just realized I"m talking about Danny's package.

Can't fault you for that, it's hard not to talk about it

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Danny

Well, it got ruined at the end. It was the Group Therapy Game. Everyone had a role, but role reveals were not allowed.

But basically roles got revealed in an indirect way and then I had to talk a wolf out of posting the names of all the wolves and pm's and things. Was a fun game for me the first half, but awful the second half of the game.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

But basically roles got revealed in an indirect way and then I had to talk a wolf out of posting the names of all the wolves and pm's and things. Was a fun game for me the first half, but awful the second half of the game.

Yeah that was rough. I think when we design games we have to assume the villagers are going to do whatever it takes to win. It's really impossible not to, if you're engaging in the game. So we've had a few games where everybody had roles, like that one, and there has to be some mechanical reason not to reveal I think. Otherwise even if you're "not allowed", if that's how to win the game people are going to find a way around it.

[EagleFan]

I disagree with a few statements.

One, being that the village was the underdog. They had a big edge going in which is why I couldn't add Charlie to the mix. Ronnie was a wild card that could be either wolf, villager or 2nd wolf team by the end.

Look at what werewolf has become over the past couple years. It's been all about being bullied by a few into "playing by the book". Hell, Poli got ripped because his day one voting strategy "made it harder to tell when he was a wolf". Granted, he did some other things worthy of being ripped for, but not his day one approach.

The game is only fun when it's unpredictable to a controlled degree.

Predictable and by the book leads to half of the players sitting by silently. Or posting about sitting by silently. That doesn't benefit the game at all.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Look at what werewolf has become over the past couple years. It's been all about being bullied by a few into "playing by the book".

+10000000000000000 I already pointed out that was happening and it's really been happening as far back as when I first started playing.

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The game is only fun when it's unpredictable to a controlled degree.

+55555555555555

Well not ONLY fun when that happens but frequently. Sure vanilla games are fun occasionally but I think more people like it when there's something new to chew on otherwise they don't join. Granted there are people who ONLY like straight vanilla games which really there are enough of.

[Danny]

Ef, can you clarify what you mean in regards to playing by the book? I dont think im understanding your argument yet

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

Ef, can you clarify what you mean in regards to playing by the book? I dont think im understanding your argument yet

Well I think I know what he means so I'll say my version. Many think there is a way to play WW in EVERY circumstance and thus expect and even DEMAND other people play that way and when others don't play that way especially newer players, they get mad or chastise. Like "a wolf wouldn't change their vote here because I wouldn't if I was a wolf" and "I wouldn't do things like this as a villager and therefore no one would and no one should". Those kinds of arguments.

[Danny]

But i dont see anyone tellimg others who to vote for, but sure why would you not analyze an action as being less likely to come from a wolf, etcc and potentially use that as spmething to base your vote on.

[Danny]

For me its about assessing probability and making the best choice based on that, i understand nt everyone wants to play that way, but i do disagree with your basic premise in that the vocal guys arw what hurts ww

[Danny]

I love playing with the type of players you describe. For me wjat ruins the game is players who check in once day, make a random vote if any and then leave.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Danny

For me its about assessing probability and making the best choice based on that, i understand nt everyone wants to play that way, but i do disagree with your basic premise in that the vocal guys arw what hurts ww

No one is saying that active players are what hurt the game. The problem is that there starts to be a core group that will almost force others underground. Look at Chubby this game, nearly silent the whole game which adds nothing to a game (sorry Chubby) but he did that because "when he talked he would get lynched".

The game is more fun when it is about reading people and the only way you can read people is to get them talking. It's a social game, so it needs to be kept social.

[EagleFan]

dola: I must say that is what made that Marvel game great. That everyone had a different signon that was used and no one knew who the others were.

[Autumn]

It seems like having preconceptions about how wolves and villagers acts doesn't bully anyone into doing those things, though, it actually encourages the opposite. Certainly people get rigid in their thinking about what "Must have" happened, but it seems that just bites those people back and they lose. I guess I'm not seeing how that impacts others. Do you guys feel like there's a social pressure to only play a certain way? What's the fall out, that people get voted out if they're not playing the way people expect?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

No one is saying that active players are what hurt the game. The problem is that there starts to be a core group that will almost force others underground. Look at Chubby this game, nearly silent the whole game which adds nothing to a game (sorry Chubby) but he did that because "when he talked he would get lynched".

The game is more fun when it is about reading people and the only way you can read people is to get them talking. It's a social game, so it needs to be kept social.

But is chubbu really lynched if he talks or was that just an excuse? I just dont buy it, when someone isnt active, it is on them, not on others.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Autumn

It seems like having preconceptions about how wolves and villagers acts doesn't bully anyone into doing those things, though, it actually encourages the opposite. Certainly people get rigid in their thinking about what "Must have" happened, but it seems that just bites those people back and they lose. I guess I'm not seeing how that impacts others. Do you guys feel like there's a social pressure to only play a certain way? What's the fall out, that people get voted out if they're not playing the way people expect?

The fallout would be like we went through a little while back with barely able to get 10 people per game as everyone starts to leave the game.

[Danny]

Ef it just seems to be coming across that you want everyone to play the way you want them too, which is the same thing you are critisizing others of doing.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The fallout would be like we went through a little while back with barely able to get 10 people per game as everyone starts to leave the game.

But that was the result of one persons actions clmbined with suddenly many of our regulars having busier schedules

[Danny]

And further impacted because fof is dead and these forums do not have any influx of new members

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

dola: I must say that is what made that Marvel game great. That everyone had a different signon that was used and no one knew who the others were.

I agree -- although if I recall, an identity got revealed at the end, and IMO, that changed things immediately. But it was a lot of fun, and I'd really like to do that again.

[Autumn]

It is tons of fun to have the anonymous identities. It's not fun when people get pigeonholed.

I think it's just part of Werewolf that people get lynched when they talk though. That's just because people are paranoid and will latch onto something. I don't see it as a symptom of a problem, but maybe I'm just missing the point.

[bhlloy]

Maybe not a problem for you autumn, but I find it frustrating enough that I've sworn never to play again a couple of times after going through a couple games in a row of being lynched in the first few days just for being vocal.

I'd love to see a game where people are rewarded for actually contributing. It would be far too subjective maybe but what the hell. A good GM might make it work

[Autumn]

Yeah, I wasn't aware of that, sorry bhlloy. I used to get lynched early every game, just because I post a lot, basically. So I know how that feels.

I think the real solution though is for everyone to post more (well not everyone *clears throat*). If everybody's posting it can't really happen, because there's tons of stuff to get paranoid about. I mean we either can lynch the people who don't post, which we go through runs of and there's backlash to that, or we can lynch from the people who are talking. The problem, in my mind, comes when there's only a few people talking and so naturally they're going to get all the stinkeye in their direction.

I'm not sure what other solutions there are. This feels like a basic problem with Werewolf online, but it sounds like people are feeling there's something more particular about our culture that is exacerbating it. I'd like to hear more about that to understand it.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Maybe not a problem for you autumn, but I find it frustrating enough that I've sworn never to play again a couple of times after going through a couple games in a row of being lynched in the first few days just for being vocal.

I'd love to see a game where people are rewarded for actually contributing. It would be far too subjective maybe but what the hell. A good GM might make it work

I thought about trying something that rewards for contributing but it really becomes subjective and that could cause major issues with people getting angry because they feel they deserved something too.

Though, The Amazing Race 2 will have some of that with the race portion of the game, though the WW portion will only be affected in that doing well in the race keeps you alive in thread for posting and participating (I think it made for a fun twist last time around).

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Though, The Amazing Race 2 will have some of that with the race portion of the game, though the WW portion will only be affected in that doing well in the race keeps you alive in thread for posting and participating (I think it made for a fun twist last time around).

Yeah that was a fun mechanic and actually made quite clear how powerful it is to keep good villagers around.

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

One, being that the village was the underdog. They had a big edge going in which is why I couldn't add Charlie to the mix. Ronnie was a wild card that could be either wolf, villager or 2nd wolf team by the end.

We lynched 2 villagers compared to lynching a wolf 5 times and the game went to the wire. If Crimson hadn't outed himself we would have been screwed. I think you can say that the village was the underdog.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

No one is saying that active players are what hurt the game. The problem is that there starts to be a core group that will almost force others underground. Look at Chubby this game, nearly silent the whole game which adds nothing to a game (sorry Chubby) but he did that because "when he talked he would get lynched".

The game is more fun when it is about reading people and the only way you can read people is to get them talking. It's a social game, so it needs to be kept social.

part of my "thing" is that you (me) need to vary how you play as well. the next time i'm quiet as a wolf, maybe it won't be so "wolfy" since I was quiet this game as a vanilla. i don't want to play the same way every game because i'll end up having tells based on my real role.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

part of my "thing" is that you (me) need to vary how you play as well. the next time i'm quiet as a wolf, maybe it won't be so "wolfy" since I was quiet this game as a vanilla. i don't want to play the same way every game because i'll end up having tells based on my real role.

Careful, that got Poli jumped on. People saying that he should be playing for that game and not for next game.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Careful, that got Poli jumped on. People saying that he should be playing for that game and not for next game.

well it IS possible to do both

they can jump all they want, this isn't an excerise in math. people can play however they want. If CF had not revealed and tried to win as a wolf, i'd see no harm in it whether it's what I would have done or not.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Chubby

If CF had not revealed and tried to win as a wolf, i'd see no harm in it whether it's what I would have done or not.

Yeah, I would have played it the same way CF did, but I actually wouldn't have had an issue if he had played it the other way. I know I said otherwise in thread, but as a villager I said that to hopefully encourage whoever was the seer to help my side win the game.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Danny

Yeah, I would have played it the same way CF did, but I actually wouldn't have had an issue if he had played it the other way. I know I said otherwise in thread, but as a villager I said that to hopefully encourage whoever was the seer to help my side win the game.

i kinda figured

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

Yeah, I would have played it the same way CF did, but I actually wouldn't have had an issue if he had played it the other way. I know I said otherwise in thread, but as a villager I said that to hopefully encourage whoever was the seer to help my side win the game.

Funny thing. The only time it crossed my head that that was even an option was WHEN you said all that stuff.

[britrock88]

(facepalm)

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by britrock88

(facepalm)

No no no. I mean. I knew it was an option but wasn't ever going to do it. The only time I thought "Hmmm well maybe I will." is when I started taking shit in the thread even before I had the chance to reveal.