FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

You don't get to shoot unarmed men just because you are a dumb cop

I don't get this unarmed stuff. There is nothing in the books that says you aren't allowed to defend yourself if the other person is unarmed. People are killed all the time by unarmed people.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

In regards to blacks, as what you replied to panerd about, or counting all manner of over stepping authority? How many incidents does it take for it to be called commonplace and how frequently in time and location?

That was general statement. I have family who are police and friends who are and they are for the most part decent and stay balanced in the handling of there duties. It could be they have not been put in a life threatening situation but believe they have in fact and have not beat the living shit out a perp. It seems and maybe I am off base but more olive than not fall into excessive use of force. I think when dealing with no whites they are more likely to overstep. Also, you have to consider many who better the police do so for the thrill to be in a position of power over others.

[BillJasper]

People can call me what they want. I've lived in Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky (including having a house in Over-the-Rhine at one point) all my life and have seen my share of questionable police tactics. I've been through the 2001 riots and had always came down on the side of the officer until several years ago.

What has went on over the last several years has simply been sobering from my point of view. It has become obvious that we can't count on Prosecutors and Grand Juries to do their job where racist cops are concerned. If we ever could.

I truly believe a good chunk of this nation has a fundamental problem with the existence of black people. They see them as some kind of dirty family secret. I don't care that a black man won the White House, any one can with massive monetary support and an utterly incompetent prior administration. A vote for Obama wasn't a vote for black men being equal, it was a vote for anyone other than the then-current crop of incompetent officials that led us thru a financial meltdown.

Crowd voting for union president: "Someone else! Someone else! Someone else!"

Homer Simpson: "Hey! I'm someone else!"

Lenny: "He's right."

[JPhillips]

It's been a long time since I've seen people so unashamed of being racist. The comments from friends of friends on Facebook are startling.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's been a long time since I've seen people so unashamed of being racist. The comments from friends of friends on Facebook are startling.

Yep. Many are wearing it like a badge of honor. Pretty sick stuff.

[RainMaker]

The word racist is so overused that it really has no meaning anymore.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The word racist is so overused that it really has no meaning anymore.

Explain this circular theory of racism. At what point does lots of racism become no racism? Does it apply to other things? Are we at the point where there are so many Patriots fans that there will soon be no Patriots fans?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The word racist is so overused that it really has no meaning anymore.

Yeah, that's it. These people are just misunderstood.

[BillJasper]

I'll readily admit that I use to be one of those people that always thought it was the black person's fault when a stop went bad. I use to think that if "he had only done what the officer told him" that he'd still be alive.

But as I've begun paying closer attention to what goes on around me, I've found that many officers of the law who are sworn to protect and serve the public really aren't doing that where black citizens are concerned.

Is it overt racism? I don't know? I'm not in the heads of these officers. But there is a definite disparity on how they handle black and white suspects. All you have to do is watch COPS to see it, though I've seen it more up close and personal in my life in Cincinnati.

Could officers feel more threatened by black suspects? I don't know? But honestly, I don't care. It could be a self-fulfilling prophecy where black suspects are harder to handle because white officers begin with that being the case in their minds and creating a tension that may not be there otherwise.

But all officers are there to protect and serve the entire community, not just the ones with similar skin color.

[Jukeman]

Esau vs Jacob. Nothing new under the sun...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

But all officers are there to protect and serve the entire community

And in recent notable incidents, that's precisely what they've done.

Some portions of the communities may lack the ... pick a word: intelligence, wisdom, discernment, common sense ... to understand that's what happened but, by & large, it is.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Explain this circular theory of racism. At what point does lots of racism become no racism? Does it apply to other things? Are we at the point where there are so many Patriots fans that there will soon be no Patriots fans?

When people use the word racist so loosely, it loses meaning. It doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, it just means that people have diluted it so much that it doesn't mean what it used to.

There are large segments of the population who believe if you didn't vote for Obama it's because you're racist. If you don't agree with certain political policies it's because you are racist (minimum wage, welfare, health care, etc). If you don't immediately side with the minority on every instance like this you are a racist.

The word "racist" is now used as a way to get out of actually looking at facts and having real discussions. Why bother doing that when you can just label your opponent a racist and move on?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

All you have to do is watch COPS to see it, though I've seen it more up close and personal in my life in Cincinnati.

And this is why I think we, as white people, are finally starting to get it. I didn't grow up around a whole lot of black people, nor did I ever interact with many cops other than a neighbor or the occasional safety visit to our school. Any other cops I saw were on TV (dramas or the news), and they were all dealing with the Bad Guys.

Now with the media explosion and so much more being caught on tape, I can finally see some of the fuckery that goes on. Cops harassing the dad waiting for his kids. Cops beating on homeless people, cops beating up old women crossing the street, cops shooting deaf Indian carvers, cops tasering a black man who happened to be passing through where a crazy white guy was threatening people. Cops breaking into houses like they are raiding Bin Laden's compound. Cops choking people to death. Cops shooting black men in Walmart, cops shooting black kids in parks.

Not only all of that, but some of us are always finding justifications for these actions. I'd say it was victim blaming, but many of these folks don't think these are victims. They deserve that sort of treatment. That's disturbing. But, increasingly folks are being called out on it. And they'll either change their views or dig in their heels.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

But there is a definite disparity on how they handle black and white suspects.

And there is an enormous disparity in the violence between the two groups. Perhaps more violent communities (of any race) have more violent confrontations with police.

And I'm not arguing that cops aren't overzelous shitheads a lot. Or that there is almost no oversight. Just that this particular case is a poor one to use to make that point. Brown was a violent criminal who was shot in the act of committing a felony. The lesson in this case should be not to attack people who might have guns because they can and will use them against you to defend themselves.

[RainMaker]

And the Garner case is actually something to be somewhat upset about. The cop should lose his job for doing something that was prohibited by his particular force.

But it still goes back to the fact that the man resisted arrest and when you put yourself in physical confrontations, bad things can happen to you or someone else. Especially when you are in such poor physical health. Garner has a lengthy criminal record and should know how this stuff works. He is the one who put himself in the bad situation.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But it still goes back to the fact that the man resisted arrest

By putting up his hands and verbally saying that he wasn't doing anything.

and when you put yourself in physical confrontations, bad things can happen to you or someone else.

You know, by...standing in the street when cops came by. He initiated a physical confrontation by standing on a street where he might actually come in contact with a pack of cops.

Especially when you are in such poor physical health.

Irrelevant.

Garner has a lengthy criminal record and should know how this stuff works.

Also irrelevant. Hey, I bet you think that women who have had sex are fair game for rapin', too.

He is the one who put himself in the bad situation.

By being black. And out in public.

You are either a hell of a troll, exceptionally obstinate, or really fucking stupid.

[chinaski]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And the Garner case is actually something to be somewhat upset about. The cop should lose his job for doing something that was prohibited by his particular force.

But it still goes back to the fact that the man resisted arrest and when you put yourself in physical confrontations, bad things can happen to you or someone else. Especially when you are in such poor physical health. Garner has a lengthy criminal record and should know how this stuff works. He is the one who put himself in the bad situation.

Hardly lengthy criminal record... it was called life where im from.. and too call that resisting arrest is a huge stretch, Garner is literally just asking wtf is going on, give me an explanation - just like almost every single person ever who's about to get handcuffs put on them.

Garner had been previously arrested and was out on bail for selling untaxed cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession and false personation.

Thats NOTHING. This is just a dude trying to get along in life, mudered by another out of control piece of shit bully cop.

[DaddyTorgo]

I used to think RainMaker was a sensible dude. ITT it seems to me he is revealing himself to be just like maybe 25-30% less bad than some of the real scum on this board.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, I don't get the general idea that some minor convictions mean it's any less tragic when a guy gets killed by overzealous cop. But for the grace of God I could probably have assault, public intoxication and minor drug offenses on my record as well, and I suspect a lot of people on this board could say the same. The thought that if I got shot in mysterious circumstances tomorrow that people would be insinuating I deserved it is very unsettling

JIMGA - your response is not required to this post

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

By putting up his hands and verbally saying that he wasn't doing anything.

Putting up your hands and verbally saying you didn't do anything doesn't mean the cops have to let you go. They were attempting to place him under arrest and he resisted that by not allowing himself to be cuffed. That's the law plain and simple.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

You know, by...standing in the street when cops came by. He initiated a physical confrontation by standing on a street where he might actually come in contact with a pack of cops.

He initiated a physical confrontation by resisting arrest.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Also irrelevant. Hey, I bet you think that women who have had sex are fair game for rapin', too.

Having sex isn't a crime. You also don't get arrested for being raped. Your comparison of a lifelong criminal to that of a rape victim is disturbing.

Originally Posted by cuervo72

By being black. And out in public.

By committing a crime. Usually cops arrest criminals. I guess we can go to a system where people can do whatever they want in these communities, but you'd just be complaining that cops don't care about black communities.

[Solecismic]

As someone who thought the grand jury was probably right on the Brown case, I'm unable to understand the lack of an indictment in the Garner case.

I thought cameras would solve these problems for the most part. I don't know if Garner deserved to be arrested, but I do not want the cops to use that kind of force to make an arrest unless there's some kind of aggression - more than simply refusing to cooperate.

As for race, I don't think it's a winning argument for long-term change. But I don't know what was in those cops' minds that day. All I know is that what was on that tape shouldn't have happened.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by chinaski

Hardly lengthy criminal record... it was called life where im from.. and too call that resisting arrest is a huge stretch, Garner is literally just asking wtf is going on, give me an explanation - just like almost every single person ever who's about to get handcuffs put on them.

30 arrests is considered life where you're from? Not a lengthy criminal record? Where the hell are you from where that is normal?

And it is resisting arrest. You don't have to be throwing punches, you just have to resist arrest which he was doing.

[JPhillips]

When did the U.S. become a police state where the number one obligation of citizens is to passively obey the authorities at all times? Questioning the police shouldn't lead to death.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I used to think RainMaker was a sensible dude. ITT it seems to me he is revealing himself to be just like maybe 25-30% less bad than some of the real scum on this board.

I'm sorry I don't jump on the bandwagon of every dumb social justice issue Huffington Post writers who wouldn't be caught dead living in a black neighborhood tells me is important.

I actually grew up in a shitty Chicago neighborhood. Many of us enjoyed when criminals got removed from our neighborhood. The criminals made our neighborhood bad. I know you think it's helping to martyr criminals, but you're not helping those communities. Cops will just be more apprehensive to get involved in crimes and that isn't helping the people in the communities who actually don't want to live in a shithole.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

When did the U.S. become a police state where the number one obligation of citizens is to passively obey the authorities at all times? Questioning the police shouldn't lead to death.

When we made it a crime to resist arrest. When we allowed law enforcement to arrest people with the use of physical force.

I mean if you want to make it a law that all criminals have to turn themselves in to be prosecuted for a crime, go for it. Not sure it'll get much support. Commit a crime and just tell the officers you're not in the mood to be arrested and they have to abide.

[ISiddiqui]

This country is so utterly fucked up.

Though it does seem like some folks are having their eyes open on the racism that is endemic - more so probably on the Garner death than the Brown one.

[JPhillips]

Nice to know that in your world the officers are always 100% correct on who has committed a crime.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Nice to know that in your world the officers are always 100% correct on who has committed a crime.

No one said that. In fact, I was pretty clear that there is a problem with overzelous cops. You're picking the wrong cases to prove it though.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

When we made it a crime to resist arrest. When we allowed law enforcement to arrest people with the use of physical force.

I mean if you want to make it a law that all criminals have to turn themselves in to be prosecuted for a crime, go for it. Not sure it'll get much support. Commit a crime and just tell the officers you're not in the mood to be arrested and they have to abide.

I am assuming you have never been arrested or detained in your life by law enforcement even for questioning or by accident etc?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I am assuming you have never been arrested or detained in your life by law enforcement even for questioning or by accident etc?

I've been detained. The officer told me to turn around and place my hands behind me. He cuffed me one hand at a time. It wasn't that difficult.

Now I didn't commit a crime but the cops didn't know what was going on when they arrived and were just handcuffing everyone till they sorted it out. I guess I could have screamed and yelled and resisted him placing the cuffs on me because I did nothing wrong. But weighing the options in my head, I realized that wasn't the smartest plan.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No one said that. In fact, I was pretty clear that there is a problem with overzelous cops. You're picking the wrong cases to prove it though.

So you're completely comfortable with the use and timing of the choke hold in the Garner case? That's an appropriate use of force at that moment?

[tarcone]

I have and I wasn't belligerent or abusive. And I didn't punch the cop. Or go for his gun. And I wasn't beaten or shot.
I showed respect and followed instructions. Things went pretty smoothly.

[larrymcg421]

If he didn't (crime), then the cops wouldn't have (police response).

You could fit anything into those spaces and it would be true. If he didn't resist arrest, then the cops wouldn't have chopped his head off.

This line of thinking is utterly meaningless when discussing how police should respond to certain situations.

[JPhillips]

I was fundraising in D.C. during the 2004 election. I was on a public sidewalk when a cop approached me and told me the building owner wanted me to leave. I asked if the sidewalk was public and he acknowledged that it was, but said I should leave because the building owner didn't want me there. I refused and the discussion got heated. It ended with him backing down and allowing me to stay.

Should I have just obeyed and left as the authority said?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So you're completely comfortable with the use and timing of the choke hold in the Garner case? That's an appropriate use of force at that moment?

Not at all. It was prohibited by the police department for a reason. I just don't think it was murder. I don't think the cops were looking to beat up a black guy or whatever. I think the officers intended to take him into custody, he resisted, and it led to a tragic situation as physical confrontations sometimes do.

[JPhillips]

There was no physical confrontation until the officer instigated it. There was a discussion, but there was no violence or threat of violence.

Whether or not it's murder is irrelevant. If you think it's wrong and the guy died, something should happen to the officer that was responsible. That the grand jury thought there wasn't even probable cause for a trial is outrageous.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

When did the U.S. become a police state where the number one obligation of citizens is to passively obey the authorities at all times? Questioning the police shouldn't lead to death.

Well im glad some of you have come around on this issue. Though I'm sure we will disagree on the causes (massive out of control government) and the solutions (shrink massive out of control government) at least we recognize the same problem.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There was no physical confrontation until the officer instigated it. There was a discussion, but there was no violence or threat of violence.

When are police allowed to physically detain someone? You're arguing like you think officers can't handcuff someone. The video is pretty clear that they wanted to take him into custody, he refused to be cuffed and they used physical force to cuff him.

I don't know what world you guys live in where you think it's up to the criminals to decide when they get arrested.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not at all. It was prohibited by the police department for a reason. I just don't think it was murder. I don't think the cops were looking to beat up a black guy or whatever. I think the officers intended to take him into custody, he resisted, and it led to a tragic situation as physical confrontations sometimes do.

If through my own negligence I do something in my line of work that ends up killing somebody, regardless of my intent, it may not be murder, but at the very, very, very least it's criminally negligent manslaughter.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's been a long time since I've seen people so unashamed of being racist. The comments from friends of friends on Facebook are startling.

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Yep. Many are wearing it like a badge of honor. Pretty sick stuff.

I'm pretty sick of the long diatribes and the memes and comments. It's so many things I never wanted to know about people that I consider friends. I don't want to be that guy, but I guess it's back to blocking people again.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by panerd

Well im glad some of you have come around on this issue. Though I'm sure we will disagree on the causes (massive out of control government) and the solutions (shrink massive out of control government) at least we recognize the same problem.

Yes we disagree on cause Bush and the war on terror as the the premise to militarize the police.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

If through my own negligence I do something in my line of work that ends up killing somebody, regardless of my intent, it may not be murder, but at the very, very, very least it's criminally negligent manslaughter.

I agree. I thought the officer in the Oscar Grant shooting got off too easily.

I think this case was much more complex though. It's a 400 pound man with a history of violence resisting arrest. The officer should lose his job no doubt. But I'm not sure he did anything criminally wrong. There are other factors that came into play such as his health situation which they could not have known about and his resisting arrest.

The Grand Jury obviously felt the responsibility was on Garner in this situation and not the cops. I wouldn't have been upset with either outcome.

[RainMaker]

And the reason some of this stuff bothers me is because I grew up in a shitty neighborhood that had a lot of crime. My Mom was mugged twice in a 6-month period coming home from work when I was a kid. She was pistol whipped the second time at which point we moved. Our garage was broken into on an almost monthly basis. We stopped storing stuff out there and they'd just siphon gas from the car.

We couldn't play after dark. We had to avoid certain streets. Businesses wanted no part of the community. It's that whole cycle of shit you hear about.

Now cops are overzealous shitbags. I've found that to be the case wherever I lived. But they weren't the problem in the community. They weren't the cause of the massive amounts of violence. I think I read that cops will kill 400 people this year (that includes suicide by cops and justifiable killings). 400 people will die in Chicago this year alone. One city. Most of them will be black. None of you will care about those people.

People like Mike Brown are not victims, they are the problem with the community. They are not martyrs, they are criminals. Stop defending people like that and start defending the 11 year old girl who eats a bullet at a slumber party. We shrug our shoulders at those cases, we riot over Mike Brown.

And if you don't agree with that assessment, feel free to move into one of these communities. The rent is really cheap. It's amazing how many upper-middle class white folks who wouldn't be caught dead in a black community want to tell everyone they're racist.

[DaddyTorgo]

RM - I think you've missed the point that most of us in this thread aren't specifically talking about Mike Brown at this point, we're talking about the culture of police violence against citizens, of which that was just one instance.

Like you said - we're talking about the 11 year olds who eat bullets at slumber parties, or the babies in their cribs who eat flashbangs, or the 12 year old kid with a toy gun who's shot at the park 2 seconds after the cops pull up to him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chinaski

Thats NOTHING.

Nice to know respect for the rule of law means so much to some folks.

This is just a dude trying to get along in life

By engaging in criminal activity. How charming, how utterly noble of him.

mudered by another out of control piece of shit bully cop.

Who died because he was a 350 pound idiot resisting arrest.

You can spew all that bullshit I quoted all you like, but it doesn't make it any less utter & complete bullshit. And every now & then, bullshit just has to get called.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And every now & then, bullshit just has to get called.

Irony ftfw.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

RM - I think you've missed the point that most of us in this thread aren't specifically talking about Mike Brown at this point, we're talking about the culture of police violence against citizens, of which that was just one instance.

Then we agree on the issue. I just think using Mike Brown as an example of a culture of violence is dumb. He was a violent criminal who was killed in the act of committing a felony. And making him the poster child for police reform is going to be met with resistance. Far better cases for this argument.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Then we agree on the issue. I just think using Mike Brown as an example of a culture of violence is dumb. He was a violent criminal who was killed in the act of committing a felony. And making him the poster child for police reform is going to be met with resistance. Far better cases for this argument.

I agree he's not the best example, but I think in this case he's the straw that broke the camel's back (at least temporarily). Like you said, not the ideal poster-child, but that doesn't mean that the issue itself ought to be discredited.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut eventually after all.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

And this is why I think we, as white people, are finally starting to get it. I didn't grow up around a whole lot of black people, nor did I ever interact with many cops other than a neighbor or the occasional safety visit to our school. Any other cops I saw were on TV (dramas or the news), and they were all dealing with the Bad Guys.

Now with the media explosion and so much more being caught on tape, I can finally see some of the fuckery that goes on. Cops harassing the dad waiting for his kids. Cops beating on homeless people, cops beating up old women crossing the street, cops shooting deaf Indian carvers, cops tasering a black man who happened to be passing through where a crazy white guy was threatening people. Cops breaking into houses like they are raiding Bin Laden's compound. Cops choking people to death. Cops shooting black men in Walmart, cops shooting black kids in parks.

Not only all of that, but some of us are always finding justifications for these actions. I'd say it was victim blaming, but many of these folks don't think these are victims. They deserve that sort of treatment. That's disturbing. But, increasingly folks are being called out on it. And they'll either change their views or dig in their heels.

One of the problems is that the people making accusations of racism then go on to accuse/infer all cops of being corrupt, violent and racist.

Much as any group of people would naturally take offence as being stereotyped as being violent criminals and become angry/defensive, grouping all police in this way will cause the group to become angry and defensive

Each accusation is as ridiculous as the other: there are clearly a number of bad apples in every group, and those responsible for crimes of any background should be severely punished

But let's be realistic and accept that most black people do not go around robbing, beating and killing, and most police do not go around killing black people.

At the same time it is true that us non-blacks will not understand what it is like to be black, and us non-cops will not understand what it is like to deal with the worst elements of society on a daily basis (of whatever background) and how that might affect your starting attitude in a situation and outlook in general.

This does not mean in any way shape or form that citizens or cops have the right to do what they want, it just means that the vast majority of people posting here, myself included, can't understand the full picture

[whomario]

Please don't stone me for what is probably a foolish attempts at giving an outside perspective and looking at it from a rather broader (and anecdotal) angle, staying way clear of racial issues for the most part (yes, i think they likely play a part in at least a few of the incidents and maybe in a ton of them, but i also think it would be more achievable and effective to firstly restrict the actual damage a racial police officer can do) ...

1) One thing that, to me, is very clear is that all of this is merely the peak of a long running issue. It has basically been an arms race for so long between criminals and the police, it seems almost beyond comprehension how it can be stopped or at least mitigated.

2) Knowing a few policemen in germany, i find it perfectly natural that even the best trained personnel can get frightened and act irrationally. Not to absolve any specific offender mentioned here, just saying that to me this is a legitimate defense in individual cases. The problem (and difference to countries like germany or the UK) i see is mainly in the fact that a frightened (or racist or pissed of or spiteful) cop in the US has a much higher availability to deadly force and/or a much lower threshold to use it. There seems to be a relative lack of alternative methods that are used before reaching for the gun.

3) The main difference between the US and other countries seems to be the usage of guns by police, which to me seems just way more accepted culturally in the US than it is here. When i compare the US police and how they present themselves and compare it with how police in germany show up at considerable mass demonstrations or riots (like the extremely violent may 1st riots or hooligan clashes) it is absolutely astonishing for me to see some of the pictures from Ferguson which made it look like WW3 was about to break out right that second. It is astonishing how police seemingly seem to rely on the threat of deadly force as the main tool in policing. Were there even units at the scene that operate with different tools than lethal weapons ? (honest question)

4) As a comparison German police fire about 75-90 shots each year (and of that often more than half tend to be warning shots fired nowhere near a person) and while the US keeps/publishes no comprehensive national statistics on the matter i think we can agree that it is a lot higher (even if adjusting for the population numbers). Keep in mind that Germany actually has a very high crime rate, number of total persons with reported "contact with the justice system or police" totals 2nd highest in the world and not totally dissimilar to the US adjusted to per capita.

5) And yes, this also corresponds with a much lower ratio of shots fired by criminals. Like said, this seems like an arms-race/a destructive spiral that is viral on both "sides" of the issue.
We have our fair share of controversy in regard to police brutality, but it involves bruises and the odd broken bone, not lethal force ...