WW LXXXIII Marvel Universe - Game Over! Rebel victory!

[JeanGrey]

And I do realize that it doesn't reflect well on me, but that is what it is.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by EmmaFrost

It looks as though our moderator has gone. Unfortunately, from my grand-standing point of view, I probably do not have the time to await his return and answer.

Consider this. Apocalypse was the only one who could create a prelate. If it was the rebels who killed Apocalypse (as our Lord Doom believes) then, as far as they knew, they were cutting off their only fresh supply of Prelates. Which, inevitably, means that there was at least one traitor on the council of Prelates. Otherwise, killing Apocalypse would have made it impossible for the traitors to achieve their ends short of slaughtering every loyal subject. In fact I would imagine such a precipitous act (killing Apocalypse) might indicate that there may have been two traitors on the council. If that were the case the rebels could then have easily broken the mutual guard chain employed to ensure the death of one of the loyal Prelates and their victory would have been assured, with a two to one majority on the ruling council. Of course the rebels may have decided to take their chances whittling down the number of prelates even if there were one of their numbers on the council.

There are problems with this
a) we do not know for sure that the rebels were responsible for the death of Apocalypse. If not, though, where is the evidence of their handiwork. There should be another dead in our ranks
b) the main theory is that there are two traitors amongst the Prelates. That seems rather far-fetched.
c) The Watcher telling me that my original assumption about the means of rebel victory is flawed.

You are asking some of the same questions that I asked this morning but received little response to. You take your thoughts a bit further than I have developed in my own mind however. I asked the same question this morning.. if the rebels did not kill Apocolypse, then what did they do last night? If the Rebels did kill Apocolypse, did they expect there to be no more leader? I guess for me Doom taking his place as our leader was not fully expected so I am guessing that they did not expect it either? Doom says he did not kill Apocolypse.. what reason would he have to lie about this? I can't think of any..

[JeanGrey]

Mod Question: Is a majority 50% or 50+1%? This makes a difference in terms of how easy or hard it would be to get a majority. Since if they just need 50%, it could suggest that there was only 1 bad prelate, as that would be only 2 more deaths needed. If it was 50+1 the idea of two bad prelates seems more likely.

[Mimic]

Emma, thank you for thinking through the traitor issues. Perhaps we can look at attacks on known loyal subjects of Apocalypse as well for some similarities between Prelates and the deceased. It bothers me somewhat that we haven't hit a traitor yet. Either their numbers are smaller than we thought or they are really good and something that should be dealt with as soon as possible.

[JeanGrey]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fantastic

You are asking some of the same questions that I asked this morning but received little response to. You take your thoughts a bit further than I have developed in my own mind however. I asked the same question this morning.. if the rebels did not kill Apocolypse, then what did they do last night? If the Rebels did kill Apocolypse, did they expect there to be no more leader? I guess for me Doom taking his place as our leader was not fully expected so I am guessing that they did not expect it either? Doom says he did not kill Apocolypse.. what reason would he have to lie about this? I can't think of any..

I can think of several, though I do not think Doom would have used them.

[JeanGrey]

Originally Posted by Mimic

Emma, thank you for thinking through the traitor issues. Perhaps we can look at attacks on known loyal subjects of Apocalypse as well for some similarities between Prelates and the deceased. It bothers me somewhat that we haven't hit a traitor yet. Either their numbers are smaller than we thought or they are really good and something that should be dealt with as soon as possible.

Why does it bother you that we haven't hit a traitor yet? There has been 1 death ordained by the group.

[JeanGrey]

DOLA: We're 0-1 at this point in finding traitors. Hardly a panic time, especially with a group this large.

[EmmaFrost]

Originally Posted by Colossus

There is nothing convenient about it, had you asked for such a thing yesterday I would have happily granted you the satisfaction of feeling my strength first hand.

One has but to ask politely for what one wants Ms. Frost.

Strange! I thought you were too exhausted from your mission to be able to attack anyone.

Please inform me, how hard are your normal punches? I would prefer a verbal response rather than a physical demonstration, if at all possible.

[Mimic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fantastic

You are asking some of the same questions that I asked this morning but received little response to. You take your thoughts a bit further than I have developed in my own mind however. I asked the same question this morning.. if the rebels did not kill Apocolypse, then what did they do last night? If the Rebels did kill Apocolypse, did they expect there to be no more leader? I guess for me Doom taking his place as our leader was not fully expected so I am guessing that they did not expect it either? Doom says he did not kill Apocolypse.. what reason would he have to lie about this? I can't think of any..

I would guess the following:

1. They can only kill once every X nights
2. Their target was Apocalypse and they either killed him or he was dead before they got to him
3. They were blocked
4. They put their energies into some other nefarious plot

Maybe some combination of the four.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fantastic

I think that seems to suggest that Doom should be considered cleared. Since Doom should be considered good, the question in my mind is: Was the killing of Apocalypse the action of the traitors last night, or was there some alternate win condition for Doom that he acted upon which made him good and replaced Apoc? If it is the latter, then I don't see any sign of what the traitors did last night, which can be either really good (ie: block of some sort), or perhaps bad.

Since this is coming back up now, this is what I asked this morning but was overlooked by the sudden coming of the Destroyer. I think there has been plenty of time for people to have reported a block or such last night, so I think at this point the most likely option is that the traitors did kill Apocalypse.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by JeanGrey

I can think of several, though I do not think Doom would have used them.

Considering all of the win conditions are based around Doom, I have a real hard time believing that Doom is not good.. or the new Good so to speak.. So there really is very little motivation for him to have lied about it.

If he had done the task, and then came out after the rules were updated and said, "Apocalypse was weak, I am strong, I took my rightful place as your leader, follow me or die".. would people really have done anything about it? Doom can't be attacked (ooc: day lynched) and can't be voted out, this isn't a democracy.. I don't see any real motivation here for him to have lied at all. I don't really think it is a possibility.

[Mimic]

Originally Posted by JeanGrey

Why does it bother you that we haven't hit a traitor yet? There has been 1 death ordained by the group.

Ah, mistake there. It bothers me that out of all the deaths, not one has been a traitor. We are down five players out of 31. That's 16.13% of the players gone and there are still the traitors and the Herald out there...as well as who knows what else.

[Mimic]

Maybe somebody should take credit for killing Apocalypse. That is quite a feat. *nudge, nudge*

[EmmaFrost]

Before I forget

Order Professor X to protect Magneto

I believe that is correct. This leaves me the quandary of whom to attack and but a short time to decide. There appear to be a multitude of potential targets.

[JeanGrey]

Originally Posted by Mimic

Ah, mistake there. It bothers me that out of all the deaths, not one has been a traitor. We are down five players out of 31. That's 16.13% of the players gone and there are still the traitors and the Herald out there...as well as who knows what else.

In a 20 person game 16% would be roughly 3 players, or what we would expect heading into Night 2. If we haven't hit a bad guy by the end of Day 2, we normally don't start panicking in a 20 player game. The good guys have had only one whack at the pianata. I'm confident we'll find and eradicate evil.

[EmmaFrost]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fantastic

Considering all of the win conditions are based around Doom, I have a real hard time believing that Doom is not good.. or the new Good so to speak.. So there really is very little motivation for him to have lied about it.

If he had done the task, and then came out after the rules were updated and said, "Apocalypse was weak, I am strong, I took my rightful place as your leader, follow me or die".. would people really have done anything about it? Doom can't be attacked (ooc: day lynched) and can't be voted out, this isn't a democracy.. I don't see any real motivation here for him to have lied at all. I don't really think it is a possibility.

Furthermore all he needed to do was fill the Council with his co-conspirators and he would win the game as a rebel.

[Magneto]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Win Conditions:
Minority ("Good"): Easy way: Overthrow the tyrant (ie - kill Apocalypse, er DOOM!), plus assume majority of seats on ruling council. Hard way: kill Apocalypse (er, DOOM!) and every one of his followers. Either one will do. Oh, and don't let Galactus eat the planet.
Majority ("Evil"): Squash the rebellion - eliminate all good/minority. Don't let Galactus eat the planet.
Others (what? there are others?): ???

For all to see, these are the updated win conditions.

For the rebels to achieve even a minor victory, they must still overthrow Doom. Previously, they were required to overthrow Apocalypse. Had they been responsible for the death of Apocalypse, I do not believe that the Watcher would have updated the win conditions. I believe he would have left them as is and all would have known that they were one step closer to victory.

[DrDoom]

Doom does not know who killed Apocalypse but sees no reason to think it was any other than the traitors. The vain fool left himself unguarded, and how could they resist the target?

The fact that they struck at Strange the first night suggests either they were cautious about what defenses their Lord might have, or they wished to up their proportions in the Prelate Council first. If that is the case then we can assume that at least two of the previous Prelates were traitors and they had reason to hope Apocalypse would appoint another of them.

Doom chose new Prelates for a reason, there is cause to suspect all of the previous council. New Prelates - fail me and you will learn what wrath Lord Doom is capable of.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by EmmaFrost

Before I forget

Order Professor X to protect Magneto

I believe that is correct. This leaves me the quandary of whom to attack and but a short time to decide. There appear to be a multitude of potential targets.

I am in the same position as I fear my lab will call to me in roughly a bit under 3 hours and I will not be back before the end of the day. I can see where you are going with the talk about the former prelates possibly having a bad person or people among them, and I already have a very very strong idea in my mind on whom I would like to push as they have been bugging me the majority of the day.

I think I would be a hypocrite however if I start a run on a second player right now. After I argued how foolish it was to push multiple people to death levels in one night, for me to do the same probably would not go over so well. Considering Nightcrawler already admitted to at least some of what Firebird said about him, my guess is he is probably where I will be voting.

[JeanGrey]

Originally Posted by Magneto

For all to see, these are the updated win conditions.

For the rebels to achieve even a minor victory, they must still overthrow Doom. Previously, they were required to overthrow Apocalypse. Had they been responsible for the death of Apocalypse, I do not believe that the Watcher would have updated the win conditions. I believe he would have left them as is and all would have known that they were one step closer to victory.

I believe this to be incorrect. Doom said something to the effect that he had made preparations in case Apocolypse died. The traitors could have felt they were killing Apoc only to run into Doom's secret plan.

[Magneto]

Originally Posted by EmmaFrost

Before I forget

Order Professor X to protect Magneto

I believe that is correct. This leaves me the quandary of whom to attack and but a short time to decide. There appear to be a multitude of potential targets.

If there is one thing Magneto knows, it is irony.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fantastic

I am in the same position as I fear my lab will call to me in roughly a bit under 3 hours and I will not be back before the end of the day. I can see where you are going with the talk about the former prelates possibly having a bad person or people among them, and I already have a very very strong idea in my mind on whom I would like to push as they have been bugging me the majority of the game.

I think I would be a hypocrite however if I start a run on a second player right now. After I argued how foolish it was to push multiple people to death levels in one night, for me to do the same probably would not go over so well. Considering Nightcrawler already admitted to at least some of what Firebird said about him, my guess is he is probably where I will be voting.

The edited part is in bold. My mind thinks about 5 paragraphs ahead of my typing and I confuse myself at times.

[DrDoom]

These treacherous rebels know nothing of the might of Doom. They thought their petty rebellion complete, no doubt, only to learn they must face a mightier rival. They will be dust beneath my boot heel.

[SilverSurfer]

Originally Posted by EmmaFrost

There are problems with this
a) we do not know for sure that the rebels were responsible for the death of Apocalypse. If not, though, where is the evidence of their handiwork. There should be another dead in our ranks
b) the main theory is that there are two traitors amongst the Prelates. That seems rather far-fetched.
c) The Watcher telling me that my original assumption about the means of rebel victory is flawed.

a) I am leaning that the rebels were responsible hence the lack of another dead. If not we must consider either a conversion or some other kind of private night action on their part.
b) I believe there was at least one traitor amongst the original Prelates. I am not nearly as confident there were two.
c) I don't understand what you refer to here. Was it an earlier post I missed?

[DrDoom]

Nightcrawler seems the victim of a telepath, most likely. Forcing him to death may not be the best path. Though he may instead be a Skrull, it is hard for us to say now.

Doom will know better where these traitors lay soon. Our former leader was much too lax in rooting them out and much work remains to be done. Doom is eager to hear other suspects than Nightcrawler before the deadline.

Doom also reminds all to commit to the mission to Galactus or face retribution.

[SilverSurfer]

Originally Posted by Mimic

Emma, thank you for thinking through the traitor issues. Perhaps we can look at attacks on known loyal subjects of Apocalypse as well for some similarities between Prelates and the deceased. It bothers me somewhat that we haven't hit a traitor yet. Either their numbers are smaller than we thought or they are really good and something that should be dealt with as soon as possible.

With 30 initial heroes I'm not at all surprised we haven't found a traitor as of yet. I trust we will soon.

[ProfessorX]

[ooc] seriously? you guys really want my wimpy-ass character protecting somebody? retarded choice

[Mimic]

Originally Posted by Magneto

For all to see, these are the updated win conditions.

For the rebels to achieve even a minor victory, they must still overthrow Doom. Previously, they were required to overthrow Apocalypse. Had they been responsible for the death of Apocalypse, I do not believe that the Watcher would have updated the win conditions. I believe he would have left them as is and all would have known that they were one step closer to victory.

I agree with this. The win conditions wouldn't have been updated if the rebels had killed Apocalypse.

[ProfessorX]

[ooc] *shrugs* nothing i can fucking do about it though [/ooc]

[Mimic]

Originally Posted by ProfessorX

[ooc] seriously? you guys really want my wimpy-ass character protecting somebody? retarded choice

Obviously you've never met Onslaught.

[ProfessorX]

[ooc] Not saying I can't do some good -- but the way this game is structured I am much more likely to be able to be effective in an offensive manner expending energy than taking damage [/ooc]

[Mimic]

Originally Posted by ProfessorX

[ooc] Not saying I can't do some good -- but the way this game is structured I am much more likely to be able to be effective in an offensive manner expending energy than taking damage [/ooc]

Maybe you're looking at this wrongly. If I were Doom, I'd be ugly.


Wait...I mean if I were Doom, I'd order my Prelates to have the most expendable (or least trustworthy) individuals provide guard actions. I think either Doom doesn't trust you or he finds you not valuable.

[JeanGrey]

Professor X - I think Doom is trying to limit the range of freedom offered to the rebels. I think it's a great concept, but one which will fall short in execution as I think their having wasted special attacks won't prevent them from doing their thing at night one iota.

[Mimic]

Originally Posted by Mimic

I would guess the following:

1. They can only kill once every X nights
2. Their target was Apocalypse and they either killed him or he was dead before they got to him
3. They were blocked
4. They put their energies into some other nefarious plot

Maybe some combination of the four.

Another possibility:
5. The killer was ordered to guard and that overrode his kill last night. (this is technically the same as #3, but just more specific)

[DrDoom]

Professor, you need not exert any powerful strength to guard a Prelate. You must simply sit in harm's way. I would think you especially capable of that.

ALL HAIL DOOM

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by Mimic

Another possibility:
5. The killer was ordered to guard and that overrode his kill last night. (this is technically the same as #3, but just more specific)

I find this hard to believe unless there is some requirement they have to have their night orders in by the end of the day phase. I haven't gone back through the lengthy rules to read if that is the case. I believe most of the guard orders were placed well before deadline other than the last one that jeangrey made. So it is hard for me to believe that they didn't know to send a different attacker.

[EmmaFrost]

Originally Posted by EmmaFrost

Before I forget

Order Professor X to protect Magneto

I believe that is correct. This leaves me the quandary of whom to attack and but a short time to decide. There appear to be a multitude of potential targets.

I make the same mistake as everyone else, it seems.

Order Professor X to GUARD Magneto

I feel that Kurt is likely to be killed today. Given Firebird's testiment it seems likely he is either a shape-shifter (possibly another Skrull) or he is in the process of being controlled. This leaves me unsure how to proceed. Do I strike a blow against another, knowing that my blow may assist the rebels if I choose wrongly or do I join the attacks on Nightcrawler, knowing that, at worst, I help kill someone who may soon be the puppet of another and ensure that I don't injure another possible innocent?

My rationale side tells me to attack Nightcrawler. My irrational side says that I don't take kindly to threats. However I feel I need to reassess the situation regarding the attacks on the Human Torch in light of the fact that he showed himself to be a Skrull. It is possible that there is an explanation to be found there.

Attack Nightcrawler

Commit to Galactus Mission

Mr Fantastic, we seem to share many of the same thoughts and it is possible that I might be able to assist you in your endevours. Perhaps we should consider forming a team. Unfortunately such an undertaking will have to wait till the morrow as I must now retire to consider the day's events.

[KangtheConqueror]

I think there was certainly a traitor lying on the original prelate council. Two is a possiblity as well. Frankly, I took there being one as fact given the traitor win conditions. I can't think that they would have to kill 3 existing good prelates and hope their group gets picked each time (or kill more than 3 and hope they are picked thrice) while *also* having to kill Apocolypse who is in charge (er, was in charge) of naming more prelates.

[Magneto]

Lord Doom, are you still a member of the Brotherhood? If not, would you consider joining for a time so that we may speak?

[GhostRider]

Originally Posted by DrDoom

You must simply sit in harm's way. I would think you especially capable of that.

With all of our superpowers and scientists and stuff, maybe somebody should create a power whereby you can give the X-man some legs...just sayin'.

[KangtheConqueror]

Originally Posted by DrDoom

Doom is eager to hear other suspects than Nightcrawler before the deadline.

Agreed great Dr. Doom. This run on Nightcrawler has me worried.

I'd like to see us try to continue to untangle the Colossus/Silver Samurai issue.

[Mimic]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fantastic

I find this hard to believe unless there is some requirement they have to have their night orders in by the end of the day phase. I haven't gone back through the lengthy rules to read if that is the case. I believe most of the guard orders were placed well before deadline other than the last one that jeangrey made. So it is hard for me to believe that they didn't know to send a different attacker.

Good points, but if by chance only selected individuals can kill or it is done on a rotating basis, then there is the slim possibility we got one of them to guard.

6. They didn't have their shit together and failed to submit a kill action.

I remember that happening a few times before in games.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by Mimic

Another possibility:
5. The killer was ordered to guard and that overrode his kill last night. (this is technically the same as #3, but just more specific)

I read through and didn't see anything specifically that said the rebel's night order had to be in at any specific time, but the attacks at night are listed in the night action section which would have meant a deadline for placing this order at many many hours after the guard orders were placed.

As a small note of commentary, it doesn't suprise me too greatly though that you are coming up with alternate suggestions to the idea that the rebels might have killed Apoc because of the number of evil prelates there might have been.

[GhostRider]

I just talked to the Watcher and it would cost 100 energy points to give the good doctor legs so, ummmm, yeah, I don't have those kind of points laying around...maybe you can find yourself a sugar daddy. Magneto? Lord Doom?

[JeanGrey]

I think that the most simple explanation is that the traitors killed Apocolypse.

Lord Doom, can you confirm that your ability to usurp Apoc's position was known only to you (or to a small group)?

[ProfessorX]

Originally Posted by GhostRider

With all of our superpowers and scientists and stuff, maybe somebody should create a power whereby you can give the X-man some legs...just sayin'.

Haha. I have no need of legs. And truth-be-told, if I was adamantly against using this guard mission today, I have my ways to avoid it. That would however involve expending energy that I feel would be better used elsewhere, which is why I am trying to talk my way out of it.

[DrDoom]

I have not yet joined any teams, Magneto. Until I am sure who to include in my private circle of trust Doom will keep his own counsel.

[JeanGrey]

I'm certainly willing to cast my day's attack on Mimic. He claimed to be willing to sacrifice himself against Galaticus (which would obviously serve the traitor's goals as well). But would this have exposed him as a traitor?

Regardless, claiming that you are willing to do something and actually doing it, especially in this case are very different things.

[Mr.Fantastic]

Originally Posted by EmmaFrost

Mr Fantastic, we seem to share many of the same thoughts and it is possible that I might be able to assist you in your endevours. Perhaps we should consider forming a team. Unfortunately such an undertaking will have to wait till the morrow as I must now retire to consider the day's events.

I am not opposed to being on the same team as you, I think you have had some logical thoughts today. My line of research is different from some of the others that people have mentioned needing assistance, in where I simply create inventions that have certain capabilities. The best help I can think of right now is discussions of whom I should be looking to send to negative zone tommorrow to either protect or inprison.

[GhostRider]

Originally Posted by JeanGrey

I think that the most simple explanation is that the traitors killed Apocolypse.

Lord Doom, can you confirm that your ability to usurp Apoc's position was known only to you (or to a small group)?

I tend to go with Occam's Razor here, which then means that they felt like they were getting close to win conditions, right? So they had to have 2 prelates to think they were throwing away a win condition so early. Plus, they killed him before he could name a replacement for Dr. Strangelove so that means they could've had 2 out of 4, needing to simply eliminate 1.