OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Anyways, I think it is not doubted that book readers tend to be more pro-Stannis than show watchers.

I don't know all that many people who are pro-Stannis aside from you.

[flere-imsaho]

Stannis is more nuanced a character in the books than on the show, undoubtedly. Book readers might still view Stannis as a bit of an ass (I know I do), but there's more there to give some more clarity (and thus justification) to his motivations than has been see on the show.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

But the period following Robert's Rebellion is generally regarded as a Pax Baratheon is it not?

Prior to Aerys II burning the Starks, there was a decent Pax Targaryen as well . At least since the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I don't know all that many people who are pro-Stannis aside from you.

Not that I agree with the theory advanced in the OP in this forum, it tries to find out why people like Stannis:

Are Stannis Fans conservatives? - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire

[flere-imsaho]

Peace is peace, though.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Question: Did Jojen Reed's eyes flash blue just before he was incinerated? If so, why would he become a White Walker instead of just a Wight? Was that another Clue about the Others?

I thought that was just the reflection of the projectile coming at him.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Peace is peace, though.

What I'm saying is that there was peace with the Targaryens as well - they didn't spend like there was no tomorrow though. A lot of Daenerys's support in Westeros is supposed to come from those who remember the good days prior to Aerys II going mad.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Question: Did Jojen Reed's eyes flash blue just before he was incinerated? If so, why would he become a White Walker instead of just a Wight? Was that another Clue about the Others?

I certainly thought that is what happened.

[NobodyHere]

Wait, when was Jojen incinerated?

[Coffee Warlord]

The Child threw her little grenade thing at him right before they dove in. To me, it looked like he was turning into a zombie right before the Child offed him.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I'm in the "reflection of the fireball" camp.

[flere-imsaho]

Nevermind, it's a reflection of the fireball. See from 5:00 here: Game of Thrones Season 4 Episode 10 (S04E10)|Bran meets the Children and Jojens Dies | White Walkers - YouTube

[Coffee Warlord]

On another note, I just can't fathom how Dany's storyline doesn't go into Book 6 next season. They simply can't have another full season of her sitting on her ass in Meereen.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, Dany's storyline in Book 6 is going to involve her in the Dothraki sea, invading Meereen with her new Khal - which also means Tyrion and Victarion are going to have to be at Meereen as well (as I'm sure they are important for Dany's return to Meereen).

The dreaded Meereenese Knot.

[flere-imsaho]

3 episodes of intrigue leading up to marriage
2 episodes of Harpies and the army ending up outside of the walls
1 episode of fighting pit & extraction via Drogon
4 episodes of wallowing in mud and eating raw horsemeat with Drogon

Except that I'm guessing Episode 9 will be the fighting pit.

And also, that would be very, very quick (compared to the books) to get Tyrion to Mereen.


So yeah, unless they really fast-track Tyrion & Victarion (or whomever), it's probably quite a few episodes of Mereen politics, marriage manuverings and Daario gradually getting pissed off.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

On another note, I just can't fathom how Dany's storyline doesn't go into Book 6 next season. They simply can't have another full season of her sitting on her ass in Meereen.

They could have the siege on Meereen. They could have that young Martel kid come in and fart around for a while like he did in the 5th book.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well, Dany's storyline in Book 6 is going to involve her in the Dothraki sea, invading Meereen with her new Khal - which also means Tyrion and Victarion are going to have to be at Meereen as well (as I'm sure they are important for Dany's return to Meereen).

The key is how much (if at all) they show of Tyrion's and Victarion's journeys. I wonder if they'll skip his trip with the Conningtons, maybe saving the introduction of those characters for the following season (if at all)?

And then they might replace Victarion with someone else? Or skip all his exposition and have him introduced as he takes ship to the East?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

They could have the siege on Meereen. They could have that young Martel kid come in and fart around for a while like he did in the 5th book.

I'm going to be pretty surprised if they have Quentyn. It just seems like the whole point of his was to free the dragons. But note that one of the dragons (Rhaegal, I think) had already freed himself from his chains by the time Quentyn and company got there. He just needed the door opened. The whole thing could be easily solved by having Drogon burn down their door (or blast a hole or something) on his way to picking up Dany.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The key is how much (if at all) they show of Tyrion's and Victarion's journeys. I wonder if they'll skip his trip with the Conningtons, maybe saving the introduction of those characters for the following season (if at all)?

And then they might replace Victarion with someone else? Or skip all his exposition and have him introduced as he takes ship to the East?

Eh... I don't think they'd sacrifice Tyrion sailing with Connington. Aegon's reveal would be the huge thing for the season - having Tyrion realize it was Aegon would make it even more interesting.

And I don't think they'll skip all the exposition of Victarion. They aren't just going to chuck most of Books 4 and 5 to fit it all in one season.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'm going to be pretty surprised if they have Quentyn. It just seems like the whole point of his was to free the dragons.

Well and also to show how dead set Doran Martell was to ally with the Targaryens - he had two marriage plans set in motion for years.

[flere-imsaho]

More speculation on narrative slowdowns: Why We're Worried About Game of Thrones Season 5 | Vanity Fair

[stevew]

so basically they're stuck not being able to know the certain pathways of certain characters and whether or not to bother including them into the tv show as they might be important or might not be. I bet the show runners want to strangle martin every day.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by stevew

so basically they're stuck not being able to know the certain pathways of certain characters and whether or not to bother including them into the tv show as they might be important or might not be. I bet the show runners want to strangle martin every day.

No, I think they do know, because famously the writers met with Martin who explained his "roadmap" for the rest of the books.

The problem is that when they leave out characters, kill them earlier than in the books, or have them do different things, they're essentially spoiling future books.

I don't think that's been a super-big deal for me so far, but with the subject matter in the next season, it could be.

[ISiddiqui]

They know the basic outlines (ie, roadmap), but not exact stuff like how important certain characters who are introduced will be - which is likely something Martin isn't going to know either until he actually writes things down.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

They know the basic outlines (ie, roadmap), but not exact stuff like how important certain characters who are introduced will be - which is likely something Martin isn't going to know either until he actually writes things down.

I didn't know that specific detail.

We're never going to see the other books, then....

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

so basically they're stuck not being able to know the certain pathways of certain characters and whether or not to bother including them into the tv show as they might be important or might not be. I bet the show runners want to strangle martin every day.

They should get what they can out of him and then fill in the rest on their own. The odds that the books will ever be finished is slim. And the odds that they would be finished before the show finishes up is even slimmer.

He built a great canvas and told a great story but they also have to create a TV show that can standalone and should make the moves that facilitates that in the best manner.

[chadritt]

They just really seem to want to avoid a Scott Pilgrim situation where the book and movie diverged pretty heavily at a certain point because the author hadnt figured it out by the time they need it. Unfortunately with the reality of making a tv series I think theyre going to have to tell his story for him.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I don't know all that many people who are pro-Stannis aside from you.

He's growing on me. He's not my favorite character and I don't agree with all of his actions, but I understand his justifications for the actions he's taken. Is he the rightful King of Westeros? Probably, unless you think a Targaryen should be sitting on the iron throne, whether it's Daenerys or someone else.

[sabotai]

For me personally, I wouldn't call myself "pro-Stannis", meaning I'm not exactly hoping the guy wins. But I do love him as a character and hope that if he dies, his death is a good death.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Plan is still for seven seasons - D&D

[flere-imsaho]

If we speculate that a major part of the remaining plot includes Dany making it to Westeros with dragons and an army, I have a hard time seeing how the resulting plot developments (battles, the North, the Others, wrapping everything up) fits in less than 2 seasons, which tends to lead me to believe that Dany will need to be on a ship by the end of next season, at which point we'll probably be beyond Martin's writing.

[flere-imsaho]

LOL from a thread on another board:

I don't think anyone expects the White Walkers to actually be an advanced alien race with their nanobots making zombies out of dead people (though, if that's how the series ends, I totally just called it).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sabotai

For me personally, I wouldn't call myself "pro-Stannis", meaning I'm not exactly hoping the guy wins. But I do love him as a character and hope that if he dies, his death is a good death.

Ohhhh my sweet summer child...

[stevew]

unless its a ruse, Michelle Fairley confirmed that she won't be returning to the show. Which is pretty sweet, cause that Lady Stonehart stuff sounded like awful television.

[flere-imsaho]

I feel the concept of the Red God bringing people back from death is going to have some level of significance, but clearly the show writers feel they can still do that with Beric as opposed to Catelyn. So, it's probably a really good decision by the show writers.

So now it'll be interesting to see what GRRM does with Zombie Catelyn in the books.

[Coffee Warlord]

"Speaking of Jaqen, according to Tom Wlaschiha's agency, the actor will return to Game of Thrones in August. The agency notes that Wlaschiha is in the main cast, all of which makes it sound as though Arya will be getting a mentor in the new season."

Awwweeeeesome.

[Barkeep49]

It always made sense to me to have Jaqen be her mentor rather than whoever it was in the actual book (see how memorable that person was?).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by stevew

unless its a ruse, Michelle Fairley confirmed that she won't be returning to the show. Which is pretty sweet, cause that Lady Stonehart stuff sounded like awful television.

Booo! I really liked Zombie Cat getting her revenge. Also, as stated, it really cemented R'hillor's power.

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

It always made sense to me to have Jaqen be her mentor rather than whoever it was in the actual book (see how memorable that person was?).

I think that was the point. The mentor was as faceless as Arya is to be one day.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

If we speculate that a major part of the remaining plot includes Dany making it to Westeros with dragons and an army, I have a hard time seeing how the resulting plot developments (battles, the North, the Others, wrapping everything up) fits in less than 2 seasons, which tends to lead me to believe that Dany will need to be on a ship by the end of next season, at which point we'll probably be beyond Martin's writing.

It seems... cramped. I know quite a few friends who hadn't read the books complaining that the finale this past season seemed like a narrative dump. I fear next season may be similar if that's their plan. I really think they'll need that 8th season.

[flere-imsaho]

If it was just Dany's story, I could totally see her on a boat at the end of next season (possibly even earlier).

But given what we already know they're putting into next season (including flashbacks from before the timeline of the books!), it is, definitely, cramped.

[flere-imsaho]

It's time for Game of Thrones to abandon the books - The Week

Not sure I agree with the lede, but this quotes stood out to me:

That's not to say Game of Thrones should disregard everything that happens in the remaining two novels that have been published, A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons. Assuming that the casting notice leaked to fan site WinterIsComing.net is accurate, we already know that Game of Thrones' fifth season will introduce at least a few elements of those books, including an increased focus on the Martells of Dorne and a greater emphasis on the Faith of the Seven. So far, so good — but that still leaves plenty of stories from the books that are unaccounted for, from the extended political disputes of the Iron Islands to the introduction of disparate characters like Young Griff and Quentyn Martell.

The truth is that the sprawling nature of Martin's later novels is totally unworkable on the screen. Martin's best moments — the death of Ned Stark, the Red Wedding, the trial of Tyrion Lannister — have already passed, and there's nothing that's quite as strong on the horizon. And even if there was, is there room for it? So far, Game of Thrones has just barely managed to juggle one of biggest casts and broadest stories on television without becoming too unwieldy. But for all its success, the show can't possibly afford to introduce so many new elements in the seasons to come; even with smart streamlining and near-constant character deaths, we barely have time for the characters Game of Thrones has introduced.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

But given what we already know they're putting into next season (including flashbacks from before the timeline of the books!), it is, definitely, cramped.

Flashbacks, eh? Hmmm... wonder how that will work. It could be very interesting. Maybe showing when the Iron Islands rebelled and Stannis put down the rebellion. Or how Dorne has been biding its time.

Maybe, even if they want to create maximum speculation about Aegon, flashback to the Blackfyre Rebellion (maybe even have an entire flashback story arc concerning Dunk & Egg... likely not, but I can dream, can't I? ).

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

sadtrombone.mp3

The speculation is that the flashback is Maggy the Frog

[flere-imsaho]

If I remember correctly, the flashbacks were being hinted at due to some casting information that indicated (I think) they were looking for a young Cersei.

[stevew]

Does Bran control a dragon in the books?

[ISiddiqui]

Not yet.

[ISiddiqui]

So I decided to re-read Game of Thrones. This is the first time I've read since the early 2000s (I started reading right before A Feast For Crows came out). Just a few chapters in and already some interesting foreshadowing:

- Dany's first chapter has two references to the red God (R'hillor). It appears that is the God of Pentos, but we don't run into R'hillor again until the next book, I think (with Melissandre). I am likely reading too much into this, but I wonder if Dany and R'hillor are going to be friends.
- In addition, when Dany enters the house that the rulers of Pentos have given to Khal Drago (yeah, not just crazy outside tents), the guard blocking the door is an Unsullied - and Viserys is repulsed by the eunuch.
- In Jon's first chapter, he describes Tyrion Lannister walking by him and mentions how light his hair is. He mentions that is more white than blond. That may make me believe even more in the rumors that Tyrion is Joanna Lannister's son through rape by the Mad King Aerys II.

Of course, I could be reaching for clues, but I found it all very interesting so far.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'll eat my hat if Tyrion is Joanna's son through a rape by the Mad King.

That's such a fanfic-theory so that people can get all googly-eyed about Tyrion that it's just...ridiculous IMO. There's all of ONE LINE of textual evidence to support it at all (less than R+L=J).

[ISiddiqui]

Well, I added the 2nd potential line of conjecture for it

[Chief Rum]

Where did Joanna Lannister come from? She is not a Lannister by birth, correct? Jaime/Cersei aside, I don't recall the Lannisters being into the whole incest thing, not like the Targaryens were.

My point is, if Joanna isn't a Lannister by birth, there is no way that Tywin would let a dwarf "Lannister" born from a rape of his non-Lannister wife by a crazy mad king live past, oh, a day. IMO.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Joanna was born in to a cadet branch of House Lannister. She had at least one sibling, Stafford.[3] Later she married her cousin Tywin.

From the wiki