WW CXXIV: When Worlds Collide - Game Over! - Page 35

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 02:45 PM

Ehhh. Oscar the grouch...

Post count!

JAG · 07-20-2011, 02:46 PM

Does it sit well with me Mau? No, not at all, as I said above I can't see how attacking Zinto for unknown gain when a wolf could NK him assuming he's good and gets a huge attack bonus is a better move than attacking the top 1-2 wolf candidates right now instead.

Danny · 07-20-2011, 02:47 PM

As of 1700

Keyser: Melisandre
Melisandre: Keyser
Dwight: Mal, Jayne
Oscar: Athena, Dwight

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinto

Originally Posted by Zinto
I think if you are going just by what has happened in the game you have:

DV-Most likely a neutral character

Jag, Jackal, NTN, Eagle, and Schmidty All have not been scanned and have not done anything to prove theirselves as villagers or wolves

Zinto, Mauboy, and Chubby-Have performed an action either clearing someone or do some action against the wolves

Autumn-Blocked for hoops and attacked by wolves

Barkeep-100% clear in my book since I soothseyed(I believe that is what it is called) him

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

This closely mimics my tiers that I have so it saves me some time from having to type everything out (tho it's not exact).

I don't think it's worth our time to vote DV and I think our last wolf is in the next tier (with ntn already being exposed and killed).

I brought this up yesterday and a little this morning (didn't want to get into it too much as it was still predeadline when I had to leave for work) but Jag is at the top of my list right now for what seems like to me, trying to stall ntn's death. He seems to have a lockon onto Jackal like he has information but he has admitted he doesn't.

This in no way means I have any confidence in Jackal, just that Jag's action ping me higher than Jackal and the other's in that tier.

Jag used the bomb on ntn at night but then wouldn't vote for him. He also would not budge even when it was clear the village thought the best course of action was to ensure ntn's death. If he had been on ntn then switched late to try and get a 2nd target, it would have pinged me a lot less than his actual actions did.

my $0.02

Super Grover 2.0 attacks Melisandre of Asshai
Oscar the Grouch attacks Melisandre of Asshai

this is by no means set in stone but he is at the top of my list with the information we have currently.

What has changed from yesterday besides being led astray from a good plan (we had yesterday)?

Barkeep49 · 07-20-2011, 02:52 PM

I really don't think we should be wasting attacks on Zinto. I don't see any potential benefit outweighing the opportunity costs of having those attacks directed elsewhere.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I really don't think we should be wasting attacks on Zinto. I don't see any potential benefit outweighing the opportunity costs of having those attacks directed elsewhere.

Agreed, as I also said above I think we would need DV to do it anyways which I haven't seen him post today.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

What has changed from yesterday besides being led astray from a good plan (we had yesterday)?

My tier post really where not my definite thought on where people should be placed more so it was a post to help DV know where people stood so he could make a quick decision on who he wanted to vote for without the bias of my thoughts. It doesn't even take into account voting record.

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 03:05 PM

Fair enough. I'll drop that idea.

mal and jayne unattack dwight
mal and Jayne attack keyser soze

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 03:05 PM

I am not one hundred percent on you Chubby and there is a decent chance I can be convinced to move my vote. Also like yesterday if the majority wants to go after a different candidate I will move my vote once again.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Can I suggest you attack super grover instead?

Yep

Dwight unattacks Oscar
Dwight attacks Super Grover

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 03:06 PM

I don't know why I'm going with jag after being sure he was a wolf. I may have to look into this some more when I get home. But for now we'll leave as is.

JAG · 07-20-2011, 03:06 PM

Has anything changed from yesterday? You have confirmation that Scmidty is good, someone Jackal voted for twice. EF is dead, so he probably isn't deserving of suspicion anymore.

Barkeep49 · 07-20-2011, 03:07 PM

Chubby:

To answer your question nothing has changed except the weight I'm willing to give to your attack on the Dormouse. That to me is the only concrete action which you deserve credit for. As we've talked about with Zinto and me, a wolf clearing a villager is an easy action. Especially when the wolves then take out that cleared player. I also think a wolf killing another wolf character, without killing the player, is a way to build trust early on. In a wolf attacks wolf scenario, no matter which player gets killed first, the attacker or the attackee, the other can claim that it shows his innocence as you do now. Yesterday I was willing to give you some credit when I thought there was a better alternative to attacking you. I don't see a better alternative in JAG/Jackal personally hence the reason I'm back onto you.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 03:08 PM

I don't think there's much we can do about the following but I would like some opinions on it:

DV has 3 missed votes, 1 invalid vote and 3 attacks.

So far the only reasons against me seem to be "gut" feeling whereas other people with actual reasons against them seem to be getting a free pass, why?

Barkeep49 · 07-20-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

I don't think there's much we can do about the following but I would like some opinions on it:

DV has 3 missed votes, 1 invalid vote and 3 attacks.

So far the only reasons against me seem to be "gut" feeling whereas other people with actual reasons against them seem to be getting a free pass, why?

Because we tried attacking him for two days and he took no damage. He then claimed a neutral role. It seemed like a waste of attacks to continue to attack someone who takes no damage.

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 03:10 PM

With jag meaning with his plan.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 03:11 PM

If we attack DV we can not hurt him. I really doubt he is a wolf since I do not think that Danny would unbalance the game in such a way, unless we also had a character like that on our side. It would be a waste to attack him again.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

Has anything changed from yesterday? You have confirmation that Scmidty is good, someone Jackal voted for twice. EF is dead, so he probably isn't deserving of suspicion anymore.

All of which implicates me how? That's where I'm having the problem seeing it as anything but a wolf play to changed the focus onto me or some reason.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

If we attack DV we can not hurt him. I really doubt he is a wolf since I do not think that Danny would unbalance the game in such a way, unless we also had a character like that on our side. It would be a waste to attack him again.

I'm not concerned with why people aren't voting him, I've said myself that's why I haven't and why we shouldn't. I'm curious as to why there has been almost no discussion (at least since early on) of his lack of votes

JAG · 07-20-2011, 03:14 PM

I don't think he's actually claimed a neutral role, but he's been attacked by villagers and presumably wolves (a special attack one time, Dracula?) and it seems like that's the niche he fills.

Barkeep49 · 07-20-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

I'm not concerned with why people aren't voting him, I've said myself that's why I haven't and why we shouldn't. I'm curious as to why there has been almost no discussion (at least since early on) of his lack of votes

What can we do about his lack of votes if we're not going to try and kill him?

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 03:17 PM

His lack of participation is concerning but he has been on and voted the last three days so I can only assume he will be on and be able to vote once again today.

JAG · 07-20-2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

All of which implicates me how? That's where I'm having the problem seeing it as anything but a wolf play to changed the focus onto me or some reason.

It doesn't really I wouldn't think, unless you attacked Schmidty yesterday (can't recall if you did or not) But then I'm not advocating a vote on you, unless it's runoff after being sure we have enough to eliminate Jackal. I'm feeling pretty confident he's all that's left with his trying to play the 'wolf cleared a villager' card, which if I die before him he would have to pursue anyway.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 03:21 PM

I understand what Jag is saying about Jackal planting the seeds of how he would like to see the discussion go tomorrow but say we kill Jag today and see he is a villager I am 90% sure I would vote Jackal tomorrow or vice-versa.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

I understand what Jag is saying about Jackal planting the seeds of how he would like to see the discussion go tomorrow but say we kill Jag today and see he is a villager I am 90% sure I would vote Jackal tomorrow or vice-versa.

As much as I have said in the past I don't think it's an either/or kinda thing, I don't have an issue with this logic because I understand the argument. They are also the last 2 in my least trusted tier.

I am heading to an ice cream social with my wife and son but I'll be back a little later.

JAG · 07-20-2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

I understand what Jag is saying about Jackal planting the seeds of how he would like to see the discussion go tomorrow but say we kill Jag today and see he is a villager I am 90% sure I would vote Jackal tomorrow or vice-versa.

Think about that Zinto. If the wolf isn't Jackal, why hasn't the wolf pushed to kill him, knowing it would mean another villager in myself would likely go down tomorrow? Why did Jackal not want to come after me initially? Because it would put him in the situation you're describing.

The Jackal · 07-20-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

Think about that Zinto. If the wolf isn't Jackal, why hasn't the wolf pushed to kill him, knowing it would mean another villager in myself would likely go down tomorrow? Why did Jackal not want to come after me initially? Because it would put him in the situation you're describing.

Or.. you are a wolf pushing to kill me. That doesn't mean you'd be the next lynch. Multiple people have said they think this might be villager-villager. I'm tired at this point, my death probably doesn't cost us the game at this point, so if you've convinced enough people to follow you, so be it.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 03:54 PM

I am honestly confused on where I want to go. I am waiting on Mau to figure out if he wants to stay on Jackal and then hopefully we can get some input from DV one way or the other. If Mau stays on Jackal that is more then likely where I will end up also.

JAG · 07-20-2011, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Or.. you are a wolf pushing to kill me.

Well, that's not an argument to sway me at least.

I know what you mean re: being tired of it. If you really are a villager I will offer profuse apologies for what it's worth and congratulate the wolf / wolves for a job well done.

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 04:07 PM

Well.. I'm not sure either. I can't imagine super Grover will have more than 5 HP so if we can find out how much AP cthulu has then maybe I can switch to Grover with if he can't cover it and ten you can switch to jackal.. I guess I'm assuming you have higher AP than my two.

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 04:11 PM

So I'm assuming Athena can cover grouch on her own. Probably only needs to be 3 HP since its not super grouch. 3 HP is what I got for each three.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 04:16 PM

Yeah assuming I have more attack power then your characters is probably not correct. I only have one attack power.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 04:18 PM

Which is part of the reason I really wanted that attack power boost since I am pretty weak.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 04:20 PM

back from the ice cream social, YUM!

i thought i had voted earlier but I don't see it

Super Grover attacks Melisandre of Asshai
Oscar the Grouch attacks Melisandre of Asshai

If I was a wolf and the village was onto me yesterday, I'd be trying to change the conversation ASAP. I think that is what is going on here, there's been no revelations to change people's trust levels from yesterday so I see no reason to change.

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 04:22 PM

With Chubby's vote we are getting to the point where we maybe stretched to thin. We still have time but we are going to need some consolidation before the deadline or we aren't going to have a lynch once again.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

With Chubby's vote we are getting to the point where we maybe stretched to thin. We still have time but we are going to need some consolidation before the deadline or we aren't going to have a lynch once again.

Well I'm clearly not voting for myself

For the villagers out there, don't let the wolves cloud the argument, there must be a reason they're trying to change gears from yesterday. Yes, this is the same argument I used to say people should stay on ntn and not switch.

My $0.02

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 04:35 PM

and one last argument before dinner:

why, if I was really the last wolf and ntn was the next to last wolf would I jump and vote for ntn right away on the day he was killed, stay on him all day, and convince others to stay on him? I wouldn't have if I was a wolf, I would have at minimum let the day play out and see if there was a way to survive...

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 04:43 PM

Well I am willing to move off you for now Chubby. I do not agree with you that Jag is a better target then Jackal though so I am going to move on to him.

Unattack Grover
Attack Keyser

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 04:45 PM

mal and Jayne unattack keyser soze
mal and Jayne attack super grover

BK. Might I suggest having you attack super Grover if your AP is over three? Then zinto and I can switch to grouch. If Grover is more super than grouch (more than three HP) then Dwight and my two will not be able to kill him

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 04:46 PM

LOL nice timing.

Danny · 07-20-2011, 05:01 PM

As of 1740

Keyser: Melisandre, Dwight
Melisandre: Keyser, Super Grover, Oscar
Oscar: Athena
Grover: Mal, Jayne

Barkeep49 · 07-20-2011, 05:30 PM

My attack is only 1. I am not very powerful in that regard.

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 05:36 PM

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 05:37 PM

mal and Jayne unattack super grover
mal and Jayne attack keyser soze

Interesting to see Chubby and Jackal voting for JAG. Not sure wolves would be voting together in this situation as it would be too obvious... right?

mauchow · 07-20-2011, 05:38 PM

But I guess it's not obvious who should be killed - I'm acting under the impression that Jackal is indeed a wolf. And then maybe JAG is too and they're just bantering back and forth to generate trust while the other one dies.

JAG · 07-20-2011, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

Well I'm clearly not voting for myself

For the villagers out there, don't let the wolves cloud the argument, there must be a reason they're trying to change gears from yesterday. Yes, this is the same argument I used to say people should stay on ntn and not switch.

My $0.02

Are you suggesting BK is a wolf since he is the one who brought up your name today? Otherwise I don't understand your point as I've attacked Jackal the past few days, which is hardly changing gears.

The Jackal · 07-20-2011, 05:51 PM

Can I ask why you've decided on me after saying you felt JAG was a wolf a day or two ago, mau?

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

Are you suggesting BK is a wolf since he is the one who brought up your name today? Otherwise I don't understand your point as I've attacked Jackal the past few days, which is hardly changing gears.

I'm not suggesting anyone in particular is a wolf besides you based on your actions, which yes, may have been the actions of an over-zealous villager but make you more suspicious of the two of you and jackal (who are the last ones left in my lowest tier of trust).

I think the conversation was steered directly or indirectly away from yesterday's conversation. I doubt you would want the focus to remain on you, would you?

Zinto · 07-20-2011, 06:14 PM

Chubby I would not say that Jag tried to move the conversation away from him. After the deadline he said he was going to go after Jackal until one of them died. He also was against me voting for you today.

Chubby · 07-20-2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

Chubby I would not say that Jag tried to move the conversation away from him. After the deadline he said he was going to go after Jackal until one of them died. He also was against me voting for you today.

I wouldn't and didn't say that either.

However, if I was in jag's shoes and other people were turning the focus away from me and yesterday do you think I'd be saying anything to get them back on point? He voted jackal and won't change, no matter what anyone says he isn't going to change his vote. Even when most people feel they have a wolf in their sites and its best to be unitied to ensure the kill (ntn) he still won't switch. That pings me in a huge way. We all have gut feelings but I'm going to act in the best interest of the village and not my gut.

07-20-2011, 05:36 PM	#1743
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	OI

07-20-2011, 02:45 PM	#1701
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	Ehhh. Oscar the grouch... Post count!

07-20-2011, 02:46 PM	#1702
JAG Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: St. Paul, MN	Does it sit well with me Mau? No, not at all, as I said above I can't see how attacking Zinto for unknown gain when a wolf could NK him assuming he's good and gets a huge attack bonus is a better move than attacking the top 1-2 wolf candidates right now instead.

07-20-2011, 02:47 PM	#1703
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	As of 1700 Keyser: Melisandre Melisandre: Keyser Dwight: Mal, Jayne Oscar: Athena, Dwight

07-20-2011, 02:52 PM	#1705
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	I really don't think we should be wasting attacks on Zinto. I don't see any potential benefit outweighing the opportunity costs of having those attacks directed elsewhere.

07-20-2011, 03:05 PM	#1708
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	Fair enough. I'll drop that idea. mal and jayne unattack dwight mal and Jayne attack keyser soze

07-20-2011, 03:05 PM	#1709
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	I am not one hundred percent on you Chubby and there is a decent chance I can be convinced to move my vote. Also like yesterday if the majority wants to go after a different candidate I will move my vote once again.

07-20-2011, 03:06 PM	#1711
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	I don't know why I'm going with jag after being sure he was a wolf. I may have to look into this some more when I get home. But for now we'll leave as is.

07-20-2011, 03:06 PM	#1712
JAG Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: St. Paul, MN	Has anything changed from yesterday? You have confirmation that Scmidty is good, someone Jackal voted for twice. EF is dead, so he probably isn't deserving of suspicion anymore.

07-20-2011, 03:07 PM	#1713
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	Chubby: To answer your question nothing has changed except the weight I'm willing to give to your attack on the Dormouse. That to me is the only concrete action which you deserve credit for. As we've talked about with Zinto and me, a wolf clearing a villager is an easy action. Especially when the wolves then take out that cleared player. I also think a wolf killing another wolf character, without killing the player, is a way to build trust early on. In a wolf attacks wolf scenario, no matter which player gets killed first, the attacker or the attackee, the other can claim that it shows his innocence as you do now. Yesterday I was willing to give you some credit when I thought there was a better alternative to attacking you. I don't see a better alternative in JAG/Jackal personally hence the reason I'm back onto you.

07-20-2011, 03:08 PM	#1714
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	I don't think there's much we can do about the following but I would like some opinions on it: DV has 3 missed votes, 1 invalid vote and 3 attacks. So far the only reasons against me seem to be "gut" feeling whereas other people with actual reasons against them seem to be getting a free pass, why?

07-20-2011, 03:10 PM	#1716
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	With jag meaning with his plan.

07-20-2011, 03:11 PM	#1717
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	If we attack DV we can not hurt him. I really doubt he is a wolf since I do not think that Danny would unbalance the game in such a way, unless we also had a character like that on our side. It would be a waste to attack him again.

07-20-2011, 03:14 PM	#1720
JAG Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: St. Paul, MN	I don't think he's actually claimed a neutral role, but he's been attacked by villagers and presumably wolves (a special attack one time, Dracula?) and it seems like that's the niche he fills.

07-20-2011, 03:17 PM	#1722
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	His lack of participation is concerning but he has been on and voted the last three days so I can only assume he will be on and be able to vote once again today.

07-20-2011, 03:21 PM	#1724
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	I understand what Jag is saying about Jackal planting the seeds of how he would like to see the discussion go tomorrow but say we kill Jag today and see he is a villager I am 90% sure I would vote Jackal tomorrow or vice-versa.

07-20-2011, 03:54 PM	#1728
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	I am honestly confused on where I want to go. I am waiting on Mau to figure out if he wants to stay on Jackal and then hopefully we can get some input from DV one way or the other. If Mau stays on Jackal that is more then likely where I will end up also.

07-20-2011, 04:07 PM	#1730
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	Well.. I'm not sure either. I can't imagine super Grover will have more than 5 HP so if we can find out how much AP cthulu has then maybe I can switch to Grover with if he can't cover it and ten you can switch to jackal.. I guess I'm assuming you have higher AP than my two.

07-20-2011, 04:11 PM	#1731
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	So I'm assuming Athena can cover grouch on her own. Probably only needs to be 3 HP since its not super grouch. 3 HP is what I got for each three.

07-20-2011, 04:16 PM	#1732
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	Yeah assuming I have more attack power then your characters is probably not correct. I only have one attack power.

07-20-2011, 04:18 PM	#1733
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	Which is part of the reason I really wanted that attack power boost since I am pretty weak.

07-20-2011, 04:20 PM	#1734
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	back from the ice cream social, YUM! i thought i had voted earlier but I don't see it Super Grover attacks Melisandre of Asshai Oscar the Grouch attacks Melisandre of Asshai If I was a wolf and the village was onto me yesterday, I'd be trying to change the conversation ASAP. I think that is what is going on here, there's been no revelations to change people's trust levels from yesterday so I see no reason to change.

07-20-2011, 04:22 PM	#1735
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	With Chubby's vote we are getting to the point where we maybe stretched to thin. We still have time but we are going to need some consolidation before the deadline or we aren't going to have a lynch once again.

07-20-2011, 04:35 PM	#1737
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	and one last argument before dinner: why, if I was really the last wolf and ntn was the next to last wolf would I jump and vote for ntn right away on the day he was killed, stay on him all day, and convince others to stay on him? I wouldn't have if I was a wolf, I would have at minimum let the day play out and see if there was a way to survive...

07-20-2011, 04:43 PM	#1738
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	Well I am willing to move off you for now Chubby. I do not agree with you that Jag is a better target then Jackal though so I am going to move on to him. Unattack Grover Attack Keyser

07-20-2011, 04:45 PM	#1739
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	mal and Jayne unattack keyser soze mal and Jayne attack super grover BK. Might I suggest having you attack super Grover if your AP is over three? Then zinto and I can switch to grouch. If Grover is more super than grouch (more than three HP) then Dwight and my two will not be able to kill him

07-20-2011, 04:46 PM	#1740
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	LOL nice timing.

07-20-2011, 05:01 PM	#1741
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	As of 1740 Keyser: Melisandre, Dwight Melisandre: Keyser, Super Grover, Oscar Oscar: Athena Grover: Mal, Jayne

07-20-2011, 05:30 PM	#1742
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	My attack is only 1. I am not very powerful in that regard.

07-20-2011, 05:37 PM	#1744
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	mal and Jayne unattack super grover mal and Jayne attack keyser soze Interesting to see Chubby and Jackal voting for JAG. Not sure wolves would be voting together in this situation as it would be too obvious... right?

07-20-2011, 05:38 PM	#1745
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	But I guess it's not obvious who should be killed - I'm acting under the impression that Jackal is indeed a wolf. And then maybe JAG is too and they're just bantering back and forth to generate trust while the other one dies.