FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Heh - yeah, I'd much rather get up for my 6AM migrant farmworker job than my 8:20 IT one.

Me too! But the farmworker has a J-O-B. Not too shabby. But yeah, it's all situational, hence the use of the term "typically". Funny how it's my job to point out SackAttack's logic flaws and it's your job to point out mine. Go team, go!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If there's one thing I can't stand it's all those poor children lying about being hungry.

Haha!

[Jukeman]

Obviously our definition of cheap and inexpensive are different.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The state set up a system with the goal of allowing students to move to better schools if their school was a failure. When that happened in Ferguson the state refused to spend the money to send the students to better schools and changed the rules so the failing school passed. How is the Ferguson community supposed to fix that?

As others have said, fixing the schools requires collective action beyond poor communities. I'm all for that, but politicians have spent the past decade reducing resources for schools. How do you see Ferguson changing that?

I know we talk about resources in schools but we actually do spend quite a bit. Ferguson for instance spend per student right around the OECD average (actually more if you just count primary and secondary). It's not all about money.

I'm not saying we can't do more but throwing some extra money at schools doesn't fix the problem. We spend more per student than countries that are crushing us (that includes at the poor schools) and are not getting the same results.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If there's one thing I can't stand it's all those poor children lying about being hungry.

Poor people are just dying of starvation. I mean the number of starvation deaths are so low we don't even track them.

Also the poorer you are, the more likely you are to be eating too many calories.

[JPhillips]

Even if I give you that obesity and hunger can't happen at the same time, that's only roughly a third of the lowest income group.

In your world all the statistics about hunger, all the anecdotal evidence and all the personal statements are all just made up to provide excuses for poor academic achievement?

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm not saying we can't do more but throwing some extra money at schools doesn't fix the problem. We spend more per student than countries that are crushing us (that includes at the poor schools) and are not getting the same results.

I saw a report talking about Scandinavian schools, and they found that schools in the USA were spending twice as much, even though they had about half as many teachers per pupil, and it turned out that the major cost for American schools is administration. Apparently we're incredibly top heavy when compared to the rest of the world, with layers and layers of administrative folks that never actually see a child or the inside of a school, and that level of administration isn't just expensive but serves to muddle any kind of change, since everybody wants input into every decision.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I saw a report talking about Scandinavian schools, and they found that schools in the USA were spending twice as much, even though they had about half as many teachers per pupil, and it turned out that the major cost for American schools is administration. Apparently we're incredibly top heavy when compared to the rest of the world, with layers and layers of administrative folks that never actually see a child or the inside of a school, and that level of administration isn't just expensive but serves to muddle any kind of change, since everybody wants input into every decision.

Yeah I don't know how to fix it. I just know a lot of money goes toward are schools, even the poor ones. It seems like our allocation of money is fine, it's how that money is being spent that is the problem.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Even if I give you that obesity and hunger can't happen at the same time, that's only roughly a third of the lowest income group.

In your world all the statistics about hunger, all the anecdotal evidence and all the personal statements are all just made up to provide excuses for poor academic achievement?

I'm arguing that it's not expensive or difficult to eat healthy. That it's just an excuse that is used by people (mainly those on the left). Same with food deserts.

If you have some statistics showing starvation in this country, please post them. Like I said, the number of deaths by it are so miniscule that it's not even reported in this country. Despite our flaws, this country does a great job of making sure everyone eats. Not everyone chooses to eat healthy though.

[JPhillips]

So hunger isn't an issue until people are dieing of starvation?

There really are a lot of kids that go to school hungry and their academic achievement is limited by that fact. I'm sure some of the parents can do a better job of allocating resources, but that doesn't mean kids aren't going to school hungry.

[RainMaker]

What is it you would like done if a parent won't feed their kids? Removal from the home?

Schools offer lunches as is and many more have added breakfast. At what point is a parent responsible for their own kid?

[ISiddiqui]

Do the "Its not expensive or difficult to eat healthy" crowd ever consider the economic principle of opportunity costs? Of course not, why care about the field of economics, right? Are we calculating the amount of time to get to a supermarket with fresh food (for example, one of the challenges with getting white collar workers to move into downtown Atlanta is that there are no supermarkets within a few miles of downtown - that puts a limit on getting people with money to move there who have cars, think about the poor that don't)? And if one doesn't have a car, the amount of time it takes on buses? Or the amount of time to prepare healthy food? How much time to make food is available if you are working two jobs?

And of course healthy food makes a ton of difference - studies show that kids who get a nutritious breakfast do substantially better on standardized tests than those who do not.

I tend to recommend this often, but really, "A Place at the Table" is a fantastic documentary. And I believe its on Netflix.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Schools offer lunches as is and many more have added breakfast. At what point is a parent responsible for their own kid?

A) School lunch and breakfast programs have been slashed, not added. States having to balance budgets had to find things to cut.

B) Do you think most of those kids in chronically food insecure households are in that situation because all of their parents are just not feed them? I can understand if you think a very small minority of parents are acting that way, but any more than that and you are just nuts. Do you understand poverty at all?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What is it you would like done if a parent won't feed their kids? Removal from the home?

Schools offer lunches as is and many more have added breakfast. At what point is a parent responsible for their own kid?

I'm not claiming to know how to end hunger. I'm just opposed to your idea that hunger is a liberal conspiracy to excuse poor achievement.

[DaddyTorgo]

Healthy food is fucking expensive, and harder to access.

Nutritionally unhealthy food is dirt cheap and is everywhere.

Whole Foods vs. McDonalds.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Healthy food is fucking expensive, and harder to access.

Nutritionally unhealthy food is dirt cheap and is everywhere.

Whole Foods vs. McDonalds.

No it's not. Many frozen veggies are like a buck a pound. Eggs and milk are cheap. You can get chicken for a few bucks a pound on sale. Potatoes, rice, and a lot of whole grains are dirt cheap. If we're talking breakfast, you can buy a tub of oatmeal for a few bucks and that's like 15-20 meals in itself.

You can eat healthy cheap and you can eat unhealthy cheap. You don't need organic produce from Whole Foods to have a healthy diet.

[Jukeman]

Lol the state should have removed my mother. Its her fault she had to work 2 jobs and was only able to give me money to buy breakfast and lunch because she could not feed me breakfast every morning. Shame on her.

Lol @ milk being cheap.

Rainmaker, where do you shop?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Whole Foods vs. McDonalds.

Well, I wouldn't go quite as far as Whole Foods. You can buy vegetables without them being hipster organic kale. Or lentils.

Time and knowledge of how to shop and prepare meals, that's something else.

[Jukeman]

Whole foods aren't even available in most "urban" areas. At least not in my city.

We have a lot of Family Dollar lol.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Whole foods aren't even available in most "urban" areas. At least not in my city.

We have a lot of Family Dollar lol.

Whole Foods vs. McDonalds was taking the two extreme ends of the spectrum guys.

There's obviously plenty in between.

But the point stands - as far as time & effort (because don't forget you have these less affluent people working 2-3 jobs to try to make ends meet) the cheapness and ubiquity of nutritionally-unhealthy food wins out all the time.

When you have 15 minutes to scarf down your dinner on your break from the convenience store you're much more likely to pickup fast food from next door then to have any sort of ability to brown-bag something healthy.

Seriously - I'm surprised we have to even have a discussion about this. I thought it was a commonly known fact.

[Ben E Lou]

Ummm...poor people are very often poor at least in part because of poor choices that they've made. So why on earth do some people think that they'd be making good choices for their kids' nutrition???

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Ummm...poor people are very often poor at least in part because of poor choices that they've made. So why on earth do some people think that they'd be making good choices for their kids' nutrition???

This too.

[cuervo72]

I mean, energy is part of it. I know there are some days where I just say "to hell with it - I'm picking up pizza"; I only have one job, and it's relatively cushy. I can imagine that's even worse if you are working double shifts.

I do think [lindy west]OBESITY IS JUST BECAUSE OF FOOD DESERTS AND PCOS YOU GUISE[/lw] is a little bit overstated. I mean - my family is less than thin. We're not quite obese, but we're not exactly in shape either. This isn't because of the availability of food or necessarily because of time. It certainly isn't about money. It's because we don't exercise like we should and we take a number of shortcuts where food is concerned. Some areas may only have Family Dollars where you can only buy cans of Hormel. That's not everywhere though (I think if you look at the maps, most of the deserts aren't even in populated areas, but the country, the west, etc).

[Radii]

This conversation about eating reminds me of when I lived in midtown Atlanta without a car. There was only one grocery store of any level of convienance on the MARTA line, and that was still a mile walk each way to the station from my apartment, and another half mile walk from the destination station to the grocery store, not to mention the wait on the trains and the 15 minute ride each way. Plus the mile walk back home with groceries involves confrontations with 2-5 homeless people offering to carry your stuff for you in exchange for a dollar or two. The more aggressive ones, especially if I seem tired, will follow me for awhile and apply a little pressure to "help me out". There is no way in hell I'm making this journey after dark. At the time I'm a 6'4" dude and I prefer not to make this journey alone. I could go to a store closer by but at the smaller locally owned stores its basically convienance store pricing (or whole foods pricing if any of them sold vegetables).

Or I could go eat fast food. And if I do decide I want groceries, compact, processed items are a hell of a lot easier to buy than a bunch of vegetables which are bulkier items to carry and don't last very long, thus making me make this trip much more frequently if I want to commit to eating fresher food.

Didn't mean for that to get so long, my tl;dr point is that my impression from reading this conversation is that a some people here are applying their lives, with their cars, and their 40 hour/week jobs, in their safe neighborhoods to the concept of "its easy to eat healthy, most people are just lazy."

I don't think its that simple if you are working more than one job, can't afford a car, and live in a neighborhood that may be less than ideal as far as safety goes.

[ISiddiqui]

Amen!

(btw, you may be happy to know that Midtown is far nicer nowadays with some grocery stores nearby - of course it's also much more expensive to live in)

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Radii

Didn't mean for that to get so long, my tl;dr point is that my impression from reading this conversation is that a some people here are applying their lives, with their cars, and their 40 hour/week jobs, in their safe neighborhoods to the concept of "its easy to eat healthy, most people are just lazy."

Many of those people have multiple perspectives over the course of their lives. Don't be so quick to dismiss the opinion or advice of people who live comfortably.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Don't be so quick to dismiss the opinion or advice of people who live comfortably.

Exactly. Our society is set up by those who live comfortably (probably, rightly so). They create the "proper" language, knowledge, standard of living, and behavior.

Which is I think the point here, those that differ from the "comfortables" norms will suffer. Either by suspension, incarceration, brutality, ostracized, scorn or ridicule.

[Buccaneer]

Just "our" society?

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Healthy food is fucking expensive, and harder to access.

Nutritionally unhealthy food is dirt cheap and is everywhere.

Whole Foods vs. McDonalds.

If you ate McDonald's three meals a day, you're spending what, $15 at least? You can do much healthier and much cheaper at a decently stocked gas station that has some canned goods.

There's definitely factors everybody mentioned that matter here - time, availability of grocery stores, whether someone has a working vehicle. It's harder to eat healthy when you're disadvantaged in those areas. I've had to bus to get real groceries when I was living in Staten Island and Jersey City. I often bought food at the dollar store and at gas stations between the weeklyish bus grocery trips. Which was a still a hell of a lot healthier and cheaper than McDonald's, and I wasn't overweight. And it's not like everyone else in those neighborhoods was overweight either. Not everyone in poor neighborhoods lives on fast food or junk food.

[ISiddiqui]

$15!! You never hear of the dollar menu?

[Suicane75]

But the drinks are where they get ya. Large soda be trippin expensive.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Lol the state should have removed my mother. Its her fault she had to work 2 jobs and was only able to give me money to buy breakfast and lunch because she could not feed me breakfast every morning. Shame on her.

Lol @ milk being cheap.

Rainmaker, where do you shop?

If you are physically incapable of something as basic as feeding your child, perhaps you're not fit to be a parent. You guys are acting like heating up some oatmeal in the morning and tossing them an apple is some impossible feat that only the wealthiest of people can accomplish.

A gallon of milk is $2.99 here. That's 2400 calories. You don't get much better bang for your buck. You can even go the powdered milk route if you want to save more.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Radii

And if I do decide I want groceries, compact, processed items are a hell of a lot easier to buy than a bunch of vegetables which are bulkier items to carry and don't last very long, thus making me make this trip much more frequently if I want to commit to eating fresher food.

Potatoes last months. Rice, beans, lentils, etc will last at least a year. The cheap bags of frozen veggies $1-2/pound will last years in the freezer. And there is nothing wrong with canned foods (refried beans are great for you!) if it comes to it.

And most fast food places have healthy options on the menu. Go with the salad and go light on the dressing. Even a grilled chicken sandwich isn't bad at most places. Just pair it with their side salad and water instead of fries and a coke.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A) School lunch and breakfast programs have been slashed, not added. States having to balance budgets had to find things to cut.

B) Do you think most of those kids in chronically food insecure households are in that situation because all of their parents are just not feed them? I can understand if you think a very small minority of parents are acting that way, but any more than that and you are just nuts. Do you understand poverty at all?

It's a good thing the feds have a great program in place for when districts fall below a certain poverty level. The budget for the National School Lunch Program has doubled over the last decade. Meals served are up close to 200% as well since 2000. There was a recent bill that added an additional $4.5 billion to upgrading the nutritional standards across the country. I'm sure there are upgrades and changes that can improve things, but things seem to be going in the right direction for feeding school children.

The breakfast program has also grown a ton. We have 16 million kids on it now. It was at 8 million just over 10 years ago. Chicago recently qualified for free breakfast and lunch for all students.

If the feds are fudging the numbers, please let us know. We might have a huge scandal on our hands.

[miked]

Man, there's a lot of middle class and upper middle class folks here telling us all how easy it is to be poor.

Just quick googling tells me that in 2009, about 94% of all school lunches did not meet USDA standards. Also, studies have found that the new school lunches are healthier (on average) than lunches brought from home. The big issue is the people that don't want the government to dictate what their kids are eating. It's, of course, those same people that want government help when it comes to paying for their unhealthy kid's medical problems.

But go back to being self-righteous telling us how easy it is to shop healthy when you are poor and probably less educated about those sorts of things anyway. And telling us who should have kids and who shouldn't.

[CU Tiger]

I wonder if poor nutrition is a cause of poor test scores, or an additional SYMPTOM of poor parenting.

If a parent can't/won't feed their child its a fair bet they also wont assist with homework, support the education etc.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

If you ate McDonald's three meals a day, you're spending what, $15 at least? You can do much healthier and much cheaper at a decently stocked gas station that has some canned goods.

There's definitely factors everybody mentioned that matter here - time, availability of grocery stores, whether someone has a working vehicle. It's harder to eat healthy when you're disadvantaged in those areas. I've had to bus to get real groceries when I was living in Staten Island and Jersey City. I often bought food at the dollar store and at gas stations between the weeklyish bus grocery trips. Which was a still a hell of a lot healthier and cheaper than McDonald's, and I wasn't overweight. And it's not like everyone else in those neighborhoods was overweight either. Not everyone in poor neighborhoods lives on fast food or junk food.

Of course not - where did I say that everybody did. Hell, there's also well-off people with uncontrollable sweet tooths or who over-indulge (there's a reason why gout was a rich person's disease historically).

It's a broad generality. But it is far more likely statistically-speaking.

You don't get to disprove my entire point just by pointing out that it's not true 100% of the time. Because it's a broad-based statistical correlation, it's not supposed to be right 100% of the time.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by miked

Man, there's a lot of middle class and upper middle class folks here telling us all how easy it is to be poor.

Just quick googling tells me that in 2009, about 94% of all school lunches did not meet USDA standards. Also, studies have found that the new school lunches are healthier (on average) than lunches brought from home. The big issue is the people that don't want the government to dictate what their kids are eating. It's, of course, those same people that want government help when it comes to paying for their unhealthy kid's medical problems.

But go back to being self-righteous telling us how easy it is to shop healthy when you are poor and probably less educated about those sorts of things anyway. And telling us who should have kids and who shouldn't.

Right? I wonder if RainMaker realizes he was saying that?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I wonder if poor nutrition is a cause of poor test scores, or an additional SYMPTOM of poor parenting.

If a parent can't/won't feed their child its a fair bet they also wont assist with homework, support the education etc.

So only people that are well off/educated should be allowed to have kids?

MASS STERILIZATIONS FOR EVERYONE WHO CAN'T PASS A LITERACY TEST!!!!

The bullshit that's spewing in this thread - wow.

[Buccaneer]

Even being at a Great School 10 school, my son avoids school lunch like the plague (as he had since early grade school). It doesn't matter if it's nutritious or not, it's just not good. So every day, he eats a plain turkey sandwich, a fruit, cheeze-it and perhaps a bar of some sort from home. Relatively healthy, I think, and pretty cheap. Much more appetizing and likely more healthier than school lunches.

Recent article in the paper shows students in nearby districts simply dumping their lunches because it's so bad. It's not just because it's more nutritious but because they choose un-appetizing, un-fulfilling options. If more money went into better quality food (probably at the expense of other educational needs), I think students would still avoid it - thus becoming more of a waste. It will take a while to educate away from junk and unhealthy foods (for all classes) but it will take a while for food providers to provide much more options and availability and inexpensive prices in areas they do not normally go into. Demand must increase but more importantly, the supply has to be there.

Just like changing attitudes that education is good thing (as oppose to the alternative), changing attitudes on food should also be done (as well as changing attitudes on suppliers in not avoiding less-desirable areas).

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by miked

Man, there's a lot of middle class and upper middle class folks here telling us all how easy it is to be poor.

Man, there's a lot of middle-class and upper-class folks here that used to be poor...telling us all how hard it is to progress out of the projects/trailer parks.

...very hard. But very possible.

[PilotMan]

I love how people say how easy it is to shop healthy on the cheap from the convenience store. My wife is Vegan. She has to be for health reasons. The cost of food that food is much higher and most of it can only be found in the really big grocery stores that carry that stuff.

There is no place on earth where cheap canned food is healthy. Frozen vegetables don't have the same healthy stuff that fresh have and they surely don't taste as good. It takes time and knowledge to prepare good healthy food. Poor people generally don't have at least 1 of those skills they need.

It's a common misconception that poor people don't make good decisions. But that's just a class thing. There are plenty of rich and middle class people who make bad decisions. They just have more money with which to make those decisions.

People with limited resources, who get access to money will still use it to better their living situation.

The issue is that the same people who want the government out of their lives are the exact same people who vilify those who are handcuffed by their options.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Even being at a Great School 10 school, my son avoids school lunch like the plague (as he had since early grade school). It doesn't matter if it's nutritious or not, it's just not good. So every day, he eats a plain turkey sandwich, a fruit, cheeze-it and perhaps a bar of some sort from home. Relatively healthy, I think, and pretty cheap. Much more appetizing and likely more healthier than school lunches.

Recent article in the paper shows students in nearby districts simply dumping their lunches because it's so bad. It's not just because it's more nutritious but because they choose un-appetizing, un-fulfilling options. If more money went into better quality food (probably at the expense of other educational needs), I think students would still avoid it - thus becoming more of a waste. It will take a while to educate away from junk and unhealthy foods (for all classes) but it will take a while for food providers to provide much more options and availability and inexpensive prices in areas they do not normally go into. Demand must increase but more importantly, the supply has to be there.

Just like changing attitudes that education is good thing (as oppose to the alternative), changing attitudes on food should also be done (as well as changing attitudes on suppliers in not avoiding less-desirable areas).

Sometimes those lunches are the best meal, or only meal that those kids are going to get. My school is a 9 on there, but we were told that they still have close to 50 students who are considered homeless.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Man, there's a lot of middle-class and upper-class folks here that used to be poor...telling us all how hard it is to progress out of the projects/trailer parks.

...very hard. But very possible.

And that's why the US has the social mobility of a third world country?

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Just "our" society?

I think so, yes. From what I can tell most societies have only had the most rich, powerful and/or religious make the rules. Perhaps our society is a success because the norms are created by a large-ish group. However, that group is still significantly in the minority.

I guess another way to look at it that our society needs fewer people to be miserable than any other. However, we still need people to be miserable.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

And that's why the US has the social mobility of a third world country?

Because of hard work?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Very true. Our culture that we are raised in heavily influences us. Hence why I'm beating up on Ferguson's school system and gang society and dead-beat dad (aka gangsta pimp daddy) society. They are very responsible for their own failure. Likewise, if and when they change their culture and become successful, you better believe they will pat themselves on the back and not you.

I remember the trailer park in Mississippi I spent some time in as a kid. I remember what my mom and dad both did and sacrificed by going to night school. I remember me going to night school (for 7 years).

The protester's and rioters that I saw on TV in Ferguson looked extremely healthy and capable of doing the same. A good indication of not living up to your potential though is that awful dialect of English many have developed. You can't get a good job speaking like that. That is born from laziness and societal pressure, not from lack of intelligence or lack of USDA approved lunches.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Because of hard work?

A clear oversimplification. There are plenty of people who will work harder through their lives than I ever did and never reach any higher on that scale. Surely you don't believe that "Hard work, takin' your vitamins and sayin' your prayers BROTHA!" is the end all, be all of success in the US?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

A clear oversimplification. There are plenty of people who will work harder through their lives than I ever did and never reach any higher on that scale. Surely you don't believe that "Hard work, takin' your vitamins and sayin' your prayers BROTHA!" is the end all, be all of success in the US?

And saying that everybody is behaving that way is not taking a good look at reality. It's a fabrication of what's really going on out there.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Kids that are hungry? Our poor are the fattest in the world. Waking up earlier than others is typically a sign of successful people. So I think you may be overstating that one. Walking and exercising is also misplaced here! I'll give you the rough neighborhood thing though...drugs and gangs are a huge problem for those who do not want any part of it.

As others have said, obesity doesn't necessarily mean "you're not hungry."

There's a couple of reasons for that. Part of it is that the poor don't eat well, but that that manifests itself in a couple of ways - eating unhealthily, but also eating irregularly.

The biological component of the latter is that if the meals you eat don't happen on a regular schedule, it doesn't matter how calorie-rich they are or aren't. Your body is going to retain as much of it as possible because it doesn't know when the next meal is coming.

I'm sure you've seen photographs of potbellied African children. There's a reason (multiple, really) why that happens. It isn't just binging on McDonald's, and it doesn't mean that,well, they've got a belly, they must be eating okay.