Werewolf XXI - Werewolf goes to Hollywood - Game Over!! Death Eaters win!!

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

As a side note, I'm heading to movies/dinner/etc. in a few here, so there's no guarantee that I'll be back for a vote. GOOOOOOOOO WIZARDS!

So why not vote now?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Meaning, why kill someone like Dacman, who didn't appear to have a role, when you know who the duke is? I'm looking for anything.

I have no idea. Maybe it's because I'm so dumb, or because it's obvious that dubb and gramm are DEs.

[Coder]

I think the result of this day's voting will be the turning point of this game. No matter how it ends, people have already started taking sides, and just a look at the voteresults tomorrow will tell us who's on which side.

[dubb93]

I'll offer up an apology to Schmidty, Desnudo, and Coder for my choice of words. Prehaps a more acceptable term would have been if they aren't DE's they are probably the 3 most mis-guided villagers I've seen in a long while.

What I said was not meant as a personal attack. This is a game of werewolf, a game where by definition we are killing people and to start the game players will be lieing the entire way.

Again, I didn't consider them an insult, since it was my impression that everything that is said in thread, stays in thread and isn't considered personal. They are more aimed at the "werewolf" character that game. Again, no offense was meant, and I offer a full apology.

My day job is that of a LPN, so I have people skills and would like to think I have class. But again, in this type of game I think you need to take things in stride and take nothing personal. Everything stays in the thread.

================================================================

Now back onto the game. I've already stated why I think Gramm is the duke, but it bears repeating.

I would not have believed Gramm if he came right out and said "I am the duke."

But the fact remains, he hinted at his role at a time when he was in no danger. He didn't flat out say he was. He was asking what a duke should and could do. That in and of itself is usually a sign of a players role. I've never seen a bad guy "hint" at his role by asking how to play it.

He had his vote on WVU and felt that Sun could protect the seer, so he was just asking about a possible duke. This alone would make me believe him.

Couple it with the fact that no other duke has come out and claimed the role, and I believe it is obvious that he is telling the truth.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this is a dumb question, but what do the DEs get by killing Dacman last night?

My guess is they took out a random villager that wasn't in the spotlight. They left me and Gramm since one of us were the vote today, and are leaving you guys since either you are the DE's or you will be in the spotlight tomorrow once you find out Gramm was the duke.

If Gram and Dubb weren't DEs, all the DEs would have had to do was kill me in the night. Not only would I be dead, but Gram and/or Dubb would have been toast too. Good point.

If you are innocent, you ever think they left you b/c me and Gramm are innocent too. You kill Gramm today and then we waste a day on you tomorrow.

[dubb93]

most mis-guided villagers I've seen in a long while.

I guess I'll clarify this so as to not hurt anyones feelings. My basis of this is the fact that I know I am innocent and I know Gramm is the duke. And since we have been your guy's top 2 suspects for days, that is the reasoning.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I've already stated why I think Gramm is the duke, but it bears repeating.

Originally Posted by dubb93

My basis of this is the fact that I know I am innocent and I know Gramm is the duke.

These consecutive posts contradict one another. You state that you think he's the duke and then you say you know he's the duke. Which is it? If you know, how do you know?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by saldana

OMG, i really hope i dont suck at DM'ing...this could effectively end my FOFC life if this game is crappy....we still have some notable personalities missing, SackAttack, George W Bush, SirFozzie, MrBug708, pennywisesb, realdeal, and fouts, among others are still not in....

signups will remain open until 12 hours before the start of night 0, regardless of the numbers in post 1

(i'll do my best everyone...preemptive apologies if the game blows)

Sorry 'bout that. I peeked in on this thread when it first got started, but didn't get back to see it go all rock star on us, and none of the WW'ers bothered to tell me.

Hope it goes well enough that ya'll can do it again at 30 or whatever and I can drop my hat in!

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Sorry for making your eyes bleed. Sort of.

Okay, can someone please argue the other side of this for me? What strategy would the DEs employ that would mean they want to keep the duke alive? Meaning, why kill someone like Dacman, who didn't appear to have a role, when you know who the duke is? I'm looking for anything.

I don't think the Duke role is all that threatening to the bad guys. It allows you to change the lynch vote and that is all. Sure it can be changed to a wolf, but not to anyone you couldn't lynch anyway. There are roles out there that are actually dangerous to the DE players and they would rather try to root out those.

I think the main reason they have not taken me is because of my play. It has not harmed them and has probaby worked in their favor. I can think of another reason too, but will hold off on that.

If you look at who the DEs have been taking, they are the most experienced players. Some may even say the best players. Now look at who is left. Do you see any experienced / good players that you think would have been taken before some that already have? I can think of 2. I can tell you that one of those will more than likely get lynched today.

BTW, all the hub bub of criticizing Dubb's tone (and his use of that tone too) is all part of the game. Getting people worked up and changing focus is something people do as part of their play. Now what does that tell you about a few people??

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

These consecutive posts contradict one another. You state that you think he's the duke and then you say you know he's the duke. Which is it? If you know, how do you know?

I've asked him these types of questions earlier in the game, and all I get is that he "dragged" the Duke thing out of Gramm. Gramm never said, "I'm the Duke", but he made it vaguely clear.

Whenever you question him at all in this game so far, he defends him with emotion and conflicting statements such as the ones you stated.

[Grammaticus]

dols,

for now,

VOTE CODER

I like AEs logic

[Grammaticus]

I meant dola in post 1760, but I'm not gonna edit it.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Getting people worked up and changing focus is something people do as part of their play. Now what does that tell you about a few people??

There's a big difference between using "emotion" to deflect attention, and flat out calling someone a moron. Name-calling is for children.

Regardless, dubb apologized. It's all good, and I just want to play the game.

[Schmidty]

Dola.

Grammaticus and his "great supporter", dubb, are voting for different people? Could it be that they're trying to set up the "I didn't vote with that DE" arument when the other is lynched?

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

I don't think the Duke role is all that threatening to the bad guys. It allows you to change the lynch vote and that is all. Sure it can be changed to a wolf, but not to anyone you couldn't lynch anyway. There are roles out there that are actually dangerous to the DE players and they would rather try to root out those.

On the contrary, the Duke is a wildcard to the wolves. Anything that could possibly change their plans is something to eliminate. If I'm a wolf and I know you're the duke I take you out.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Name-calling is for children.

Ironically, some could say that you're indirectly calling dubb a child.

Okay, I'll leave it alone now...

[Grammaticus]

A few things,

I think there are two death eaters left. I think the use of the invisibility cloak showing two DE meant something. They must have had some form of protection to counter the cloak, but I think the character using the cloak is getting something remedial out of its use. I’m not positive because the rules state the bad guys can choose who makes the kill and can send more than one. That may mean one was protecting the other.

Now regarding validating wizards. It is only my third game, but I can tell you I learned in the last game that validating and making a circle of trust faster than the bad guys can eliminate you tilted the tables quickly. As a Demon in that game, when everyone started revealing there roles and special abilities, it became clearer who was telling the truth and who was lying. As Demons in that game we had to make up roles and that is when you start making mistakes that can’t be covered long term. Kinda how Neon caught SnDvl in this game.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

There's a big difference between using "emotion" to deflect attention, and flat out calling someone a moron. Name-calling is for children.

Regardless, dubb apologized. It's all good, and I just want to play the game.

What I am telling everyone is that Dubb and you Schmidty are both playing a game with your insult and apology crapola. I could care less whether you accept his apology or not

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

On the contrary, the Duke is a wildcard to the wolves. Anything that could possibly change their plans is something to eliminate. If I'm a wolf and I know you're the duke I take you out.

I agree it is a wildcard, but there are much more pressing concerns for the DEs.

I am far less likely a player that will logically catch them and pose a smaller threat than others. I'm sure my time will come and of course their strategy may change.

[Grammaticus]

Help me out here a little bit. Of those who are left in the game, who is generally considered to be the best players? Who usually offers all kinds of good logic on whe the baddies are and why? Are they doing that this game or not? Does that change in play mean something?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

I don't think the Duke role is all that threatening to the bad guys. It allows you to change the lynch vote and that is all. Sure it can be changed to a wolf, but not to anyone you couldn't lynch anyway. There are roles out there that are actually dangerous to the DE players and they would rather try to root out those.

I think the main reason they have not taken me is because of my play. It has not harmed them and has probaby worked in their favor. I can think of another reason too, but will hold off on that.

If you look at who the DEs have been taking, they are the most experienced players. Some may even say the best players. Now look at who is left. Do you see any experienced / good players that you think would have been taken before some that already have? I can think of 2. I can tell you that one of those will more than likely get lynched today.

BTW, all the hub bub of criticizing Dubb's tone (and his use of that tone too) is all part of the game. Getting people worked up and changing focus is something people do as part of their play. Now what does that tell you about a few people??

Most experienced players, like Alan T?

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Most experienced players, like Alan T?

We lynched AlanT, the DEs did not take him in the night.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

We lynched AlanT, the DEs did not take him in the night.

Dola,

It was also probably the dumbest lynch we have made in the game so far.

[Grammaticus]

Here is how I have the vote so far:

Gramm – RA, Lathum, Taz, Coder
Coder – AE, Gramm
Schmidty – Dubb

[Desnudo]

Oh yes, my bad. Well the obvious answer to your question about normally involved players and helpfulness levels would be Dubb. Of course if they were pursuing this strategy of taking out experienced players, wouldn't he be first on the list?

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Oh yes, my bad. Well the obvious answer to your question about normally involved players and helpfulness levels would be Dubb. Of course if they were pursuing this strategy of taking out experienced players, wouldn't he be first on the list?

Yep, and who else would stand out?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Yep, and who else would stand out?

I don't know, I haven't played one of these in ages. Pass maybe? Kingfc?

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Oh yes, my bad. Well the obvious answer to your question about normally involved players and helpfulness levels would be Dubb. Of course if they were pursuing this strategy of taking out experienced players, wouldn't he be first on the list?

It would be a good strat., but I've been on the suspect list of everyone since the 1st damn day. They obviously aren't going after anyone on peoples suspect lists.

As for you calling me an analyzer, my normal play is far from that. That is what Hoops is, with his pages of notes. I on the other hand take no notes. I tend to call people out, be "mean" for lack of a better term and ploy my way though people untill I am convinced they are good.

I find holes in peoples logic. That is a big part of my play. Also, if people can't see the obvious(in this case, Gramm being the duke), that makes them suspect to me.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Yep, and who else would stand out?

King, AE, Schmidty

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I don't know, I haven't played one of these in ages. Pass maybe? Kingfc?

How about Schmidty? Would it have made more sense to remove Schmidty thatn dacman or CW? I'm not sure what to think of Pass. He has not been voting or posting. What does that mean? I really don't know.

[Desnudo]

We all acknowledge that Gramm is likely the duke. Where the split lies is what to do with that information.

What do you suggest we do?

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

We all acknowledge that Gramm is likely the duke. Where the split lies is what to do with that information.

What do you suggest we do?

It is never a good idea to knowly lynch a villager, even if he can save himself with a power. That is a power that could be useful down the road.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

We all acknowledge that Gramm is likely the duke. Where the split lies is what to do with that information.

What do you suggest we do?

if we lynch Gram, he's the duke, turns around and lynches me.. where do the Wizards stand? Because the result will be that we've revealed two wizards and completely tossed the potential ideas we've had so far into the river.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Help me out here a little bit. Of those who are left in the game, who is generally considered to be the best players? Who usually offers all kinds of good logic on whe the baddies are and why? Are they doing that this game or not? Does that change in play mean something?

I can tell you my experience with players...I don't know if I can offer any wisdom as to their style of play.

I'm active in other games and have been in this one. I've been fairly weak in my deciphering I'd guess in my past games. I've rarely been killed by the wolves.

Lathum, Pass, Raiders, Schmidty, Taz, king, dubb, and RPI have played often (I think). Of these, I got snowed incredibly once by Schmidty on Day 1 of the Spawn game. He was the Queen Spawn, IIRC. I had the chance to eliminate him on Day 1, and I screwed that up.

Desnudo, Coder, KWhit, Jeeber, WVU, Superman, and you are left. Of these, I know Jeeber and Superman have played before. I don't recall desnudo and kwhit immediately playing in the past. WVU and you have been playing, but just recently, IIRC.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Coder

if we lynch Gram, he's the duke, turns around and lynches me.. where do the Wizards stand? Because the result will be that we've revealed two wizards and completely tossed the potential ideas we've had so far into the river.

I still don't believe you.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I still don't believe you.

[dacman]

fuzzy pink bunny slippers?!

VOTE SALDANA

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I can tell you my experience with players...I don't know if I can offer any wisdom as to their style of play.

I'm active in other games and have been in this one. I've been fairly weak in my deciphering I'd guess in my past games. I've rarely been killed by the wolves.

Lathum, Pass, Raiders, Schmidty, Taz, king, dubb, and RPI have played often (I think). Of these, I got snowed incredibly once by Schmidty on Day 1 of the Spawn game. He was the Queen Spawn, IIRC. I had the chance to eliminate him on Day 1, and I screwed that up.

Desnudo, Coder, KWhit, Jeeber, WVU, Superman, and you are left. Of these, I know Jeeber and Superman have played before. I don't recall desnudo and kwhit immediately playing in the past. WVU and you have been playing, but just recently, IIRC.

Well, from my experience and listening to the comments of others, I would guess to two most likely to be feared by the wolves are

Dubb
Schmidty

Then I would guess Ardent, King, RPI. But really it starts to get foggy for me. I did not know Lathum played a lot. I say RPI because he hosted a game, but that is the only reason.

I have concerns over the absence of Pass and the near invisibility of Taz and King.

Then I voted for Coder because of the uncovered lie. I think you have to lynch bacause of the lie. It just raises the probability of being a wolf. Definately not a given. I waver in my thought only due to this being his first game. Would you make someone a wolf in their first game? Probably, with all the help you would get from others.

Then the Dubb/Scmidty thing is next. They logically should not be here.

Third, put King and Taz on the hot seat and see what happens.

That is the path I would go down at this point. There is still a lot of game left and we should not get too discouraged that we have not found another DE yet. I mean, we are doing very well for this point in the game (I think).

[Coder]

Thinking about it (and without consulting my Excel-sheet), this could be a pretty decent setup.. watch for dubb to vote for me closer to the deadline. Hmm.. Ardent.. I'm taking you off my trusted list .

[Grammaticus]

Dola,

I will say that I see Pass reading the thread each day, like he is right now. So I don't buy lack of input and/or voting due to being busy. People who do not vote have to be dealt with. It kills the wizards.

Who else has not been voting?

[Desnudo]

Hell, I don't know. I'm probably going to eenie meenie minie moe this vote.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Coder

Thinking about it (and without consulting my Excel-sheet), this could be a pretty decent setup.. watch for dubb to vote for me closer to the deadline. Hmm.. Ardent.. I'm taking you off my trusted list .

I've been expecting that all day.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Dola,

I will say that I see Pass reading the thread each day, like he is right now. So I don't buy lack of input and/or voting due to being busy. People who do not vote have to be dealt with. It kills the wizards.

Who else has not been voting?

This was incorrect (I think I said he hadn't voted). I re-checked and he was listed under both Pass and Passacaglia.. Pass had votes every day except day one.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Dola,

I will say that I see Pass reading the thread each day, like he is right now. So I don't buy lack of input and/or voting due to being busy. People who do not vote have to be dealt with. It kills the wizards.

Who else has not been voting?

Kwhit and WVU have missed votes. Kwhit was traveling according to a post earlier in here.

[Coder]

I have a question that I'd like a werewolf veteran not in the game anymore to answer (if they're still reading). Preferrably a known wizard (are they allowed to?).

What do the deatheaters have to gain by having Gram revealed as the duke? I mean, they already know he's not a deatheater. His only power is that he can overturn his own lynching, right? He can't defend himself against an assassination?

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Coder

This was incorrect (I think I said he hadn't voted). I re-checked and he was listed under both Pass and Passacaglia.. Pass had votes every day except day one.

That makes more sense then. I thought everyone was voting after the first day. If someone is tracking, can you let us know who has not voted and when? That could be helpful.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Coder

I have a question that I'd like a werewolf veteran not in the game anymore to answer (if they're still reading). Preferrably a known wizard (are they allowed to?).

What do the deatheaters have to gain by having Gram revealed as the duke? I mean, they already know he's not a deatheater. His only power is that he can overturn his own lynching, right? He can't defend himself against an assassination?

Dead wizards cannot give meaningful input, so they can't answer that. The Duke can traditionally change any lynch vote, not just the ones where he is voted for a lynch.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Coder

I have a question that I'd like a werewolf veteran not in the game anymore to answer (if they're still reading). Preferrably a known wizard (are they allowed to?).

What do the deatheaters have to gain by having Gram revealed as the duke? I mean, they already know he's not a deatheater. His only power is that he can overturn his own lynching, right? He can't defend himself against an assassination?

He can overturn any lynching. Can't defend against assassination.

"Ministry of Magic Official – as a member of the ministry, you have the ability to change the outcome of the days lynch vote. If the person you change the vote to is in the service of the Dark Lord, you retain this power, however if you change the vote to an innocent, you will be relieved of office. This ability is used in secret by sending an owl to the DM at any point during the day cycle, or within 15 minutes after the voting deadline. However, if you make the wrong choice, your role is revealed."

[Coder]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

That makes more sense then. I thought everyone was voting after the first day. If someone is tracking, can you let us know who has not voted and when? That could be helpful.

According to my sheet (now that I've changed all Passacaglia to Pass so he shows up in the filter :P), everyone has voted, though Jesse didn't vote day 4 (he voted day 5).

[Coder]

I have about half an hour to an hour before I'm going to sleep, but I don't think I'll change my vote. I think Gram needs to be tested. Now is as good as any time. I've been wrong just about every day so far so don't take my word that he's a DE.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

He can overturn any lynching. Can't defend against assassination.

"Ministry of Magic Official – as a member of the ministry, you have the ability to change the outcome of the days lynch vote. If the person you change the vote to is in the service of the Dark Lord, you retain this power, however if you change the vote to an innocent, you will be relieved of office. This ability is used in secret by sending an owl to the DM at any point during the day cycle, or within 15 minutes after the voting deadline. However, if you make the wrong choice, your role is revealed."

So basically... he'll only get revealed if the vote is for him to be lynched since he'll turn it away from himself... since even if he is the duke and we get a reversal on the lynching, we'll at least suspect he is the duke (as will the deatheaters).

However, the deatheaters already know he's a wizard if he's not a deatheater.. judging by the way he's been hinting that he is the duke, he's basically got nothing to lose by having the role revealed.. and just like everyone's been saying, since he's been said to be the duke for so long, why isn't he killed yet?

Question remains though.. if he is NOT the duke, then who is??!