2012 Presidential Campaign

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

...endorses....

I bet he wears a number 17 Chargers jersey every Sunday in the fall.

EDIT: On second thought, nope, that Super Bowl trophy case in Mission Valley is still empty. He can't possibly be a Rivers fan or a Chargers fan.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I don't give actors a pass either FIWW.

Haven't been to a Mel Gibson movie since his nuttiness came out, and haven't been to a Tom Cruise movie since he went postal and super-scientologist. Same thing for Travolta.

I'm with you on Mel Gibson, but Apocalypto is absolutely worth seeing.

Beck is also a Scientologist, but doesn't advertise it. Thankfully, I enjoy the man's music.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by bronconick

I was wondering why athletes always get more of a backlash then actors for coming out on political stuff. It's been a time honored tradition in Hollywood, after all, and musicians are about as bad. Both are involved in what I'd call "escapism" where when I'm watching, I don't WANT to hear about politics, the starving kids, or whatever, and all I can think of is that when Mel Gibson is an idiot, he makes one movie a year (where he's technically not Mel Gibson during) which is 3 hours of my life that I can choke down my bile or just skip, while if a football player on my favorite team starts going political, that's 16+ games of 3 hours a piece.

I think part of it is that athletes are themselves whereas actors are performing as someone else.

For me, I don't really care either way. Adam Baldwin is an extreme conservative, but I still love him when I watch Firefly or Chuck. Tom Cruise's bizarre personal behavior had no bearing on my enjoyment of Ghost Protocol. I don't even think about those things when they're on the screen.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Grover

I'm with you on Mel Gibson, but Apocalypto is absolutely worth seeing.

Beck is also a Scientologist, but doesn't advertise it. Thankfully, I enjoy the man's music.

I saw Apocalypto on HBO.

I'm fine with watching the stuff on HBO (or better yet, cable), I just don't want to pay to support it in the theaters.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I don't give actors a pass either FIWW.

Haven't been to a Mel Gibson movie since his nuttiness came out, and haven't been to a Tom Cruise movie since he went postal and super-scientologist. Same thing for Travolta.

Who gives a shit who an actor or athlete likes politically? Are you guys so into the partisianship that you can only interact with people who share your political views?

[Julio Riddols]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Who gives a shit who an actor or athlete likes politically? Are you guys so into the partisianship that you can only interact with people who share your political views?

I don't think its so much that they support someone we do not support because I am sure if it were Romney he came out in support of, no one would be too miffed. Its that the things they associate themselves with make them seem borderline crazy and extreme to the point we can't bear to see them be successful and know that they have influence. Cruise and scientology means he is fine with being part of something that operates like a cult. It clashes with our desire to believe he is a normal person. It makes his movies harder to watch because of that association. With Mel Gibson, he is crazy. He is a crazy person. Now here comes Rivers, and his public support of Santorum tells the world that he is in favor of the ideas that Santorum supports, which to most people seem crazy as well.

Its kinda the same reason I have trouble watching Billy Bob Thornton in Bad Santa. He looks like my stepfather who is an asshole, and plays a similar role in the movie. The association makes it less enjoyable to see the film, which would be funny with anyone else playing the role.

[Crapshoot]

This is just depressing - the GOP "electorate" in Alabama and Mississippi

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/p...nSwing_312.pdf

I'm not sure what's worse; the insistence that Obama is a muslim because, well because, or that evolution is a liberal conspiracy?

Do you think Barack Obama is a Christian or a Muslim, or are you not sure?
Christian: 14
Muslim: 45
Not sure: 41

Do you believe in evolution, or not?
Believe in evolution: 26
Do not: 60
Not sure: 13

Mississippi Republican Primary voters:

Do you think Barack Obama is a Christian or a Muslim, or are you not sure?
Christian: 12
Muslim: 52
Not sure: 36

Do you believe in evolution, or not?
Believe in evolution: 22
Do not: 66
Not sure: 11

[sterlingice]

This has to be a biased poll, right? Seems too far off to be credible, even for AL and MS.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Who gives a shit who an actor or athlete likes politically? Are you guys so into the partisianship that you can only interact with people who share your political views?

In those cases it's not about politics - in Gibson's case it's about being a bigot, and in the case of Cruise+Travolta it's financial support (and yes I know my $10 isn't really going to affect their income all by itself) of their kooky-ass brainwashing cult.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This has to be a biased poll, right? Seems too far off to be credible, even for AL and MS.

SI

Those were the questions asked. PPP is a Democrat-leaning pollster, but their polls for the GOP nomination have been pretty good; no one questions the methodology. You could argue the questions introduced the "bias" in the first place, but I don't think so.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

I don't think its so much that they support someone we do not support because I am sure if it were Romney he came out in support of, no one would be too miffed. Its that the things they associate themselves with make them seem borderline crazy and extreme to the point we can't bear to see them be successful and know that they have influence. Cruise and scientology means he is fine with being part of something that operates like a cult. It clashes with our desire to believe he is a normal person. It makes his movies harder to watch because of that association. With Mel Gibson, he is crazy. He is a crazy person. Now here comes Rivers, and his public support of Santorum tells the world that he is in favor of the ideas that Santorum supports, which to most people seem crazy as well.

Its kinda the same reason I have trouble watching Billy Bob Thornton in Bad Santa. He looks like my stepfather who is an asshole, and plays a similar role in the movie. The association makes it less enjoyable to see the film, which would be funny with anyone else playing the role.

Yeah - I think this hits at it.

If Rivers for example came out supporting Romney or someone else who isn't a deplorable human being (being a bigot) then I could care less. But if they associate themselves with someone who is a deploreable human being then I wish them nothing but the worst as a result of that association. Unless (to take the current example) Rivers comes out and says "I support Santorum on X idea, but think he's completely wrong on Y and Z" then I have to assume that he supports all of Santorum's ideas...even the Middle-Ages bullshit.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This has to be a biased poll, right? Seems too far off to be credible, even for AL and MS.

SI

Well, people might be trying to communicate something different than the answer to the question.

Perhaps by saying "Obama is a Muslim," you are really signaling "I don't like the President." You are giving the answer that is the most anti-Obama you can.

By that same token, when you say "I don't believe in evolution," you might really be saying "in the debate between science and religion, I am on the side of religion."

Kind of like those early primary polls where, like, 50% of GOP voters said "I want Donald Trump to be President." Most of those people never meant that. They were signalling "I do not like the current crop of GOP contenders, and I like that Trump is willing to attack the President with such gusto."

An anonymous non-binding survey is a great way to try and get your message out. It isn't like when you hang up the phone you have to start living your day-to-day life in a way consistent with wanting Donald Trump to be president, or not believing in evolution.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This has to be a biased poll, right? Seems too far off to be credible, even for AL and MS.

FWIW, on the evolution question it seems like a reasonable number, when you consider these Gallup results from 2009 at least. Only 39% of Americans believe in evolution, the number drops as low as 24% among regular churchgoers. Only 31% over the age of 55 believe in it & assuming this poll was either registered/likely voters (both of which tend to be older respondents), that also impacts the results. These aren't spot on with the Gallup stuff, but they're at least close enough to seem reasonably unbiased IMO.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/da...evolution.aspx

edit to add: The religion question also doesn't seem out of line with other results either. Here's Pew on the question back in August 2010, with 18% of all Americans identifying Obama as a Muslim. It's not a huge stretch to me therefore to figure that answer being 3x more likely among GOP primary voters, in Mississippi or elsewhere. As far as seeming like reasonably accurate results, these don't seem out of line or overly biased.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's not a huge stretch to me therefore to figure that answer being 3x more likely among GOP primary voters

Especially with so many of them self-identifying Alabama fans.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This has to be a biased poll, right? Seems too far off to be credible, even for AL and MS.

SI

Nope. That's pretty accurate. It's pretty close to the Pew results if I remember correctly.

[lcjjdnh]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

This is just depressing - the GOP "electorate" in Alabama and Mississippi

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/p...nSwing_312.pdf

I'm not sure what's worse; the insistence that Obama is a muslim because, well because, or that evolution is a liberal conspiracy?

And barely a majority in Miss. believe that interracial marriage should be legal?!?!?

[Grover]

"Now, it has taken all these years for many Americans to understand that the gravity, that mistake that took place before the Civil War and why the Civil War had to really start changing America. What Barack Obama seems to want to do is go back before those days when we were in different classes based on income, based on color of skin"

Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Palin

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Grover

"Now, it has taken all these years for many Americans to understand that the gravity, that mistake that took place before the Civil War and why the Civil War had to really start changing America. What Barack Obama seems to want to do is go back before those days when we were in different classes based on income, based on color of skin"

Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Palin

Damn you, John McCain.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

In those cases it's not about politics - in Gibson's case it's about being a bigot, and in the case of Cruise+Travolta it's financial support (and yes I know my $10 isn't really going to affect their income all by itself) of their kooky-ass brainwashing cult.

But still, who cares? I guess I just view this as faux-outrage. No one really gives a shit but we all have to pretend we do when the Quarterback for the San Diego Chargers endorses an unconventional candidate.

I never understood why an entertainer or athlete's political opinion mattered so much to people. They should be treated the same as the political opinion of the guy who delivers your pizza. It just comes across as self-righteous and blowhardy. The guy doesn't like your candidate, it's not like you have to spend Thanksgiving dinner with him, he just plays football for a random team.

Same goes for actors. I'm watching a movie, my enjoyment isn't based on what they are like off-screen. Just as my pizza doesn't taste differently if my delivery man is going to vote for Rick Santorum.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But still, who cares? I guess I just view this as faux-outrage. No one really gives a shit but we all have to pretend we do when the Quarterback for the San Diego Chargers endorses an unconventional candidate.

I never understood why an entertainer or athlete's political opinion mattered so much to people. They should be treated the same as the political opinion of the guy who delivers your pizza. It just comes across as self-righteous and blowhardy. The guy doesn't like your candidate, it's not like you have to spend Thanksgiving dinner with him, he just plays football for a random team.

Same goes for actors. I'm watching a movie, my enjoyment isn't based on what they are like off-screen. Just as my pizza doesn't taste differently if my delivery man is going to vote for Rick Santorum.

The guy who delivers my pizza doesn't have a media platform with which to spread his endorsement of his political views though. He's not "in the public eye" in that sense. And (with rare exceptions) he doesn't make them known to me. And if he did I'd kindly ask him to stop. If I liked his pizza enough to want to keep going there in fact, I'd ask him to stop before he even got into any sort of opinion. Now if I didn't particularly like his pizza...I'd let him spout off and then take my business elsewhere if I felt I had to.

[SirFozzie]

I had to look up the Palin quote myself, just because it was so mindboggingly stupid that it didn't come from the Onion or something similar.

"Now, it has taken all these years for many Americans to understand that that gravity, that mistake, took place before the Civil War and why the Civil War had to really start changing America. What Barack Obama seems to want to do is go back to before those days when we were in different classes based on income, based on color of skin."

Wow. Just, wow. And this woman was proposed to be the person who was one John McCain heart attack away from the presidency?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

The guy who delivers my pizza doesn't have a media platform with which to spread his endorsement of his political views though. He's not "in the public eye" in that sense. And (with rare exceptions) he doesn't make them known to me. And if he did I'd kindly ask him to stop. If I liked his pizza enough to want to keep going there in fact, I'd ask him to stop before he even got into any sort of opinion. Now if I didn't particularly like his pizza...I'd let him spout off and then take my business elsewhere if I felt I had to.

They have platforms because people like you need to pretend to be outraged over things like this. You are the ones who act like his opinion on Presidential candidates matter. I am telling you that no one should give a shit who Phillip Rivers or Mel Gibson vote for. It's an actor and an athlete. You watch one because he plays football and another because he is in movies.

So if your pizza guy had a big Santorum bumper sticker on his car, would you stop buying pizza from them? Or would you do what I propose and not give a shit because all you should care about is eating pizza.

[Grover]

Incredible isn't it?

What is she even attacking? If you want to attack Obama, there are plenty of things you can attack from a conservative stand point, but to make some weird veiled reference to slavery and Obama wanting to head back to that time in our history... it's just... insane.

from the Atlantic on said Palin quote.

"Incredibly, Palin seems incapable of uttering the word "slavery" when discussing the Civil War. Thankfully, she's not even flirting with the neo-Confederate belief that the war was about states' rights rather than slavery. But she doesn't mention slavery because it would clearly undermine her case: even the most hardcore Son of the Confederacy would see the absurdity of arguing that the first black president would like to return to the days of slavery."

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

This is just depressing - the GOP "electorate" in Alabama and Mississippi

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/p...nSwing_312.pdf

I'm not sure what's worse; the insistence that Obama is a muslim because, well because, or that evolution is a liberal conspiracy?

It's not too surprising though, we sort of knew that those states were some of the dumbest. They always come up as one of the poorest and least educated. Lets be honest, if it wasn't for some oil in the vicinity and the rest of the country propping them up, they'd be a 3rd world country.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I had to look up the Palin quote myself, just because it was so mindboggingly stupid that it didn't come from the Onion or something similar.

I thought it was satire until you said you looked it up. Wow.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They have platforms because people like you need to pretend to be outraged over things like this. You are the ones who act like his opinion on Presidential candidates matter. I am telling you that no one should give a shit who Phillip Rivers or Mel Gibson vote for. It's an actor and an athlete. You watch one because he plays football and another because he is in movies.

So if your pizza guy had a big Santorum bumper sticker on his car, would you stop buying pizza from them? Or would you do what I propose and not give a shit because all you should care about is eating pizza.

I don't think the pizza guy/athlete comparison is as apples:apples as you make it out to be.

I would hardly say I'm outraged. Frankly, outside of this thread I hadn't even heard of the Rivers thing, and haven't even given it a moment of thought.

And as far as Gibson/Cruise/Travolta...I wouldn't classify myself as a big movie-goer anyways, so it's yet to really affect me.

[RainMaker]

Well you said you "were done with him" in regards to Rivers and that you wouldn't support movies by someone like Gibson. It seems you are somewhat outraged by it if you are considering changing your habits based on their political views.

[SirFozzie]

It's referring to his embrace twenty years ago (during a protest at Harvard, where he was attending at the time) of a Harvard Law professor that wrote a book that says that America didn't go far enough to correct the situation that benefitted some by creating a racial caste system:

"The interest of blacks in achieving racial equality will be accommodated only when it converges with the interests of whites,"

Now, this person had a lot of reason to be bitter (his law career was stalled when he was at the Civil Rights department when he was ordered to resign his membership in the NAACP, and when he refused, found himself with no cases and a desk out in the hallway, and later he resigned when Harvard refused to do more to hire black females for the Law School)

Is there a valid point in what Palin and others are trying to link him to? I don't think so, but others may disagree. Did she go about in doing it completely the wrong way and not only make herself look like a complete blithering idiot (again), but actively damaged the point others are trying to make? Undoubtedly.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I saw Apocalypto on HBO.

I'm fine with watching the stuff on HBO (or better yet, cable), I just don't want to pay to support it in the theaters.

This really doesn't make sense. You're still paying for it (as you purchased HBO) and supporting him. You can bet that a guy like Cruise is getting a nice chunk of those cable rights and if a ton of people watch it on cable, it will certainly increase the renewal price for said cable rights.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I had to look up the Palin quote myself, just because it was so mindboggingly stupid that it didn't come from the Onion or something similar.

"Now, it has taken all these years for many Americans to understand that that gravity, that mistake, took place before the Civil War and why the Civil War had to really start changing America. What Barack Obama seems to want to do is go back to before those days when we were in different classes based on income, based on color of skin."

Wow. Just, wow. And this woman was proposed to be the person who was one John McCain heart attack away from the presidency?

All I can think of is this old SNL sketch:
SNL Transcripts: Demi Moore: 11/12/88: Bush's Final Negative Ad

SI

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by lcjjdnh

And barely a majority in Miss. believe that interracial marriage should be legal?!?!?

Yeah seriously. What the fuck is wrong with these people? Do they think that if they snap their fingers, 1950 is coming back and those people will know their place?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

This really doesn't make sense. You're still paying for it (as you purchased HBO) and supporting him. You can bet that a guy like Cruise is getting a nice chunk of those cable rights and if a ton of people watch it on cable, it will certainly increase the renewal price for said cable rights.

I mentioned that I was aware of that. I know it's illogical, but it is what it is.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well you said you "were done with him" in regards to Rivers and that you wouldn't support movies by someone like Gibson. It seems you are somewhat outraged by it if you are considering changing your habits based on their political views.

Well I mean I was never into Rivers or anything. Not like I'm a Chargers fan - shit...I live on the other side of the country...I couldn't even tell you where he went to college or anything.

And as far as Gibson/Cruise...not necessarily a change of habits at all...I've never been a big "go to the movies" type person.

[flounder]

Rick Santorum endorses Ron Paul. Says people in favor of limited government should vote for him.

[Jas_lov]

Gingrich should drop out if Santorum's slim leads hold in both AL and MS. Endorse Santorum and give him the one on one vs Romney in IL on Tuesday. The last poll in IL had Romney with a 4 point lead over Santorum. Gingrich was a distant 3rd, but his supporters might be enough to make it interesting in a 2 man race.

[SirFozzie]

Who woulda thought that the businessman in the GOP race would find it impossible to close the deal?

[JonInMiddleGA]

FWIW, Fox just called AL for Santorum.

Pity that Newt's ego is unlikely to let him get the hell out of the way.

edit to correct (typed MS the first time in case anyone saw that)

[JPhillips]

I've read some conspiracy mongering that says Adelson is now bankrolling Gingrich to keep Santorum from the nomination. If Newt stays in, and more importantly if Adelson keeps spending, there may be something to that rumor. There's simply no way that Gingrich can even hope for a win through a brokered convention.

[RainMaker]

I could have sworn that Nate Silver made the point that it benefitted Santorum in a way to have Gingrich in the race (at least for awhile). Basically it'd be almost impossible to catch Mitt in delegates in a 2-man race but splitting them up 3-ways gave him a shot at a brokered convention. If the delegates are a mess but he is the one with momentum, he could get the nomination.

It is crazy to think that if Santorum had some money behind him, he'd win the nomination. Bunch of states that were super close that Santorum could have won with some organization and ads.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As my wife just mentioned "we don't know what Mitt has promised Newt ... and there's nobody slimier than Newt"

[JonInMiddleGA]

CNN & Fox both call MS for Santorum as well. Newt still leads Robamney for 2nd in both.

[JPhillips]

Romney will still come out ahead in delegates tonight with wins in Hawaii and American Samoa.

btw- Why do territories get to help choose the nominee when they can't vote in the general election?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

btw- Why do territories get to help choose the nominee when they can't vote in the general election?

In the immortal words of Chris Jericho "YaskY"

(i.e. there's no shortage of stuff that makes little sense as far as primaries go)

[JPhillips]

My favorite so far was this comparison:

Romney gets 207 votes and 9 delegates from Guam.

Gingrich gets 533,000 votes and zero delegates from Florida.

[Grover]

I wish these Republican clowns running for president would realize that they have virtually no control over the price of fuel. And that drilling for more oil and making more oil available does not automatically mean that prices will go down.

[RainMaker]

It makes oil companies wealthier though.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Grover

I wish these Republican clowns running for president would realize that they have virtually no control over the price of fuel. And that drilling for more oil and making more oil available does not automatically mean that prices will go down.

Reality has nothing to do with politics. How about perception?

SI

[Grover]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Reality has nothing to do with politics. How about perception?

SI

Oh, I know. It's just frustrating. Similar to how candidates (on both sides) will make promises to do things that Presidents can't do without Congress.

Best example recently: Romney saying he's going to close down Planned Parenthood.

[Solecismic]

This is still both a dull and a fractious campaign. Since AL and MS are proportional and open, it doesn't change the landscape moving forward. Getting 25-30% of the delegates in states he's not that strong, comparatively, is a huge plus.

Gingrich will receive more pressure to withdraw. But I'm not sure that helps Santorum. It makes him look like a bully, and really, he and Gingrich are running against Romney together. It's not how many delegates they receive, it's how many Romney doesn't receive.

Either way, though, I think Romney will have no trouble reaching 1,144.

I'm puzzled by the MSM (mainstream media) insistence that this is some sign of huge weakness for Romney. MS and AL are red states. It's not like Obama is going to win there, any more that it matters how strong the Republican nominee is in California. Does it matter if the margin is 20 points or 15 in November? If Romney's to get to 270, he needs to win the large, close states. PA, OH, FL. That's all that matters.

[larrymcg421]

Weakness in the south might not be bad for him in MS or AL, but it could be in VA or NC, which could cancel out a FL or OH steal. But the real weakness evident from his showing in such states is his failure to appeal to the conservative base, which could depress turnout in November.