WW LXVI: Money Money Money (Game Over!)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Ho, hum, let the games begin.

VOTE The Jackal
VOTE The Jackal

[Barkeep49]

Can it be 9 o'clock?

[Mr. Wednesday]

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Central time. I'm about to fall over from sleep exhaustion.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Gotcha.

[Alan T]

Vote The Jackal (1)
Vote The Jackal (2)
Vote The Jackal (3)
Vote The Jackal (4)
Vote The Jackal (5)
Vote The Jackal (6)
Vote The Jackal (7)
Vote The Jackal (8)
Vote The Jackal (9)
Vote The Jackal (10)
Vote The Jackal (11)
Vote The Jackal (12)
Vote The Jackal (13)
Vote The Jackal (14)
Vote The Jackal (15)
Vote The Jackal (16)
Vote THe Jackal (17)
Vote The Jackal (18)
Vote The Jackal (19)
Vote The Jackal (20)
Vote The Jackal (21)
Vote The Jackal (22)
Vote The Jackal (23)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Quiet for near-deadline.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Or not.

[Barkeep49]

And with that the Cutthroats win! More commentary tomorrow.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm mildly surprised that Schmidty was here ten or fifteen minutes ago, but not at deadline.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Woohoo!

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm just going to hazard a guess that if The Jackal and Schmidty had marshalled their resources, they could have trumped our remaining cash.

Chief Rum was wrong about who got converted. I got converted the same night I stole $180k in on-hand cash from claphamsa.

He really was lying about my in-bank cash. I had cooked books that could "prove" either the real amount or an alternative fake amount corresponding to no services acquired (I had gotten the notary on the night I was bribed, as well as subsequently the lawyer and the PI).

[Alan T]

Not sure how much I will be around tommorrow because of in-laws in town, so just wanted to thanks Barkeep for the game. I had fun, and especially had alot of fun a few different points in the game (such as the day I was grilled by Hoops, the night we worked out the plan on how to bribe Mr.W and where to go next with it, and after Chief had his amazing night of ruining all of my plans trying to just keep the vote close between Mr.W and myself)...

The only main questions I had from the game was what the tiebreaker was for bids on services, and the last night Chief had Friend of the bank, did Chief purposely lie about how much we had in the bank, or was there an error somewhere from Barkeep?

As for the game mechanics.. I think the first half of the game was really difficult for the wolves, and people didn't realize that we were pretty far behind on money for a while until we did the bribe Mr.W -> Change tyrith's beneficiary -> Kill Tyrith night.. I think probably there was 4 different nights we would have lost if the villagers had voted to end the game , including after we lynched DaddyTorgo, and it was obvious Mr.W and I were wolves.

I think some of the game mechanics made it really hard to get trust for the wolves (to the point where we had to actively sell out other wolves and risk losing the money war just to gain trust), but I also think the game was pretty tough for the villagers as the numbers of people left got smaller.. By simply removing the active players, we just had to vote more than others at deadlines.. I am not sure i like the voting extra times for money thing, since it basically meant those who were here at the deadline had an advantage... Maybe if it was worked out differently to where it neutralized the Time advantage by silently doing part of the bids via PM or something, I would have liked it more..

Anyways, I enjoyed the game, and enjoyed playing with everyone.. thanks again for the fun game Barkeep.

[Lathum]

I realize it was a long time ago but I did indeed win the seer ability the first night. I was going to use it t scan hoopsguy.

[Schmidty]

I'm done.

[Alan T]

Also wanted to thank Claphasma, Mr.W and Passacaglia for being fun to play with. We had some really good and long conversations about strategy along the way. This game was far more strategic as a wolf to how we did alot of various things.. I enjoyed working with you all too.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I think a potential turning point in the game was when claphamsa said I only stole 9k from him. That number didn't make a whole lot of sense. What I had in mind to do was work out a cooked-books number that would make it look like he was OK. There were a couple of occasions where only having two people around to bid on services hurt us; I think if we could have kept Chief from getting the last FOB, he might not have been able to put the whole picture together when he did.

[Mr. Wednesday]

This was one of the more interesting moments of the game:
from: Craig Powers
to: Alan T
date: Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 10:00 PM
subject: Re: new thread
mailed-by: gmail.com
hide details Feb 14 (1 day ago) Reply

Help!

[Mr. Wednesday]

'Cuz DT had put me ahead in the vote by two votes and I'd already voted out my cash.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

He really was lying about my in-bank cash. I had cooked books that could "prove" either the real amount or an alternative fake amount corresponding to no services acquired (I had gotten the notary on the night I was bribed, as well as subsequently the lawyer and the PI).

I never lied about what I was told you and Alan had in the Bank. So either I was given bad numbers or a mistake was made somewhere.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I think a potential turning point in the game was when claphamsa said I only stole 9k from him. That number didn't make a whole lot of sense. What I had in mind to do was work out a cooked-books number that would make it look like he was OK. There were a couple of occasions where only having two people around to bid on services hurt us; I think if we could have kept Chief from getting the last FOB, he might not have been able to put the whole picture together when he did.

Actually, the only thing the last FOB did was spur me to do the analysis I should have done earlier (and strangely enough, Alan's prompting). I reached those conclusions well before really comparing cash in the Bank to what I had in front of me. I mean, I knew that Mr. Wednesday had a ton of cash in the Bank from the PM (you don't miss a big number like that), but I knew I myself had almost $150K at that point--and that was after I spent $140K on the Underground Connection. So the cash Mr. Wednesday had didn't surprise me.

Really, I only tossed out what I had for you and Alan in the Bank to make sure the others would have more incentive to go after you two.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

This was one of the more interesting moments of the game:
from: Craig Powers
to: Alan T
date: Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 10:00 PM
subject: Re: new thread
mailed-by: gmail.com
hide details Feb 14 (1 day ago) Reply

Help!

Silly question, but are you Craig Powers? I don't actually know your real name.

What details were you trying to hide?

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm sorry. I thought that with my challenge in-thread to BK, if he had given you incorrect numbers, he would post an in-thread correction.

My actual amount was high-$30,000 range. It was carefully worked out to agree with both the $70k amount that I had publicly posted in this thread, CD maturities, the amount you had seen me have on night 4 (after I won the notary), and winning the seer... Alan and I were kicking around the idea of me actually coming out with that and saying that RendeR wasn't a cutthroat.

[Chief Rum]

So tell me I at least scared the living crap out of you two before you went on to victory.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Silly question, but are you Craig Powers? I don't actually know your real name.

What details were you trying to hide?

That's just from the gmail interface. The "hide details" is for the header info that I showed so that it was obvious that it was an e-mail.

That went out the moment I realized I couldn't handle DT on my own.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, and yes, that's my real name.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I'm sorry. I thought that with my challenge in-thread to BK, if he had given you incorrect numbers, he would post an in-thread correction.

My actual amount was high-$30,000 range. It was carefully worked out to agree with both the $70k amount that I had publicly posted in this thread, CD maturities, the amount you had seen me have on night 4 (after I won the notary), and winning the seer... Alan and I were kicking around the idea of me actually coming out with that and saying that RendeR wasn't a cutthroat.

Yeah, I don't know what that's about it. Here's the PM:

7. Alan T 45,772
8. The Jackal 68,310
9. Chief Rum
11. Schmidty 30,000
13. SnDvls
14. Mr. Wednesday 147,325
16. DaddyTorgo

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

That's just from the gmail interface. The "hide details" is for the header info that I showed so that it was obvious that it was an e-mail.

That went out the moment I realized I couldn't handle DT on my own.

Alan reacted fast for someone on a V-day date!

[Chief Rum]

You guys played terrific, and committed to the end (unlike some ). You had a plan and you carried it through. I was fortunate to pick on a few parts of it and draw enough connections to pick the right two, even if I didn't nail the days and the conversion and what not.

Really, Alan sorta offered up what really happened as the alternate reality, I think, in trying to argue he wasn't a wolf (he was leaving out the part where he starts as a wolf, of course). Interesting ploy.

[Lathum]

I solemly swear if AlanT ever gets this late in a game I will vote for him.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Alan reacted fast for someone on a V-day date!

I had gotten home just a bit before that. I actually was glad no one from the BB-BBCF league was around, because when I got home, I started up the sim there, so anyone who had checked that site knew I had been home for about 12 minutes already prior to that.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I solemly swear if AlanT ever gets this late in a game I will vote for him.

From the PMs I received from several people.. I don't think you have to worry about that. I'll be suprised to be here day 2 for a while.

[Alan T]

The only other comment I can think of to make is a few people mentioned that Mr.W and I played great down the stretch, but honestly with the game the way it was setup, we never would have gotten there without Passacaglia and Claphasma running interference earlier in the game. The only way we could go further was them making sacrifices (giving themselves up) as well as playing in a way that helped the entire team.

Pass didn't really get busted as much as he just threw himself out there on a limb.. Claphasma I think unfortunately just ended up the wrong odd man out on the wrong day.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yeah, I don't know what that's about it. Here's the PM:

7. Alan T 45,772
8. The Jackal 68,310
9. Chief Rum
11. Schmidty 30,000
13. SnDvls
14. Mr. Wednesday 147,325
16. DaddyTorgo

Let me go find the right PM...

Originally Posted by post-day-7 PM

You won both services, obviously.

Alan has 60722 on hand and 154594 in the bank.
Wednesday has 162325 on hand and 37413 in the bank.

I think that's where we actually stood then. That's definitely the amount I had told BK to put in the bank.

I know that there were some issues for a while with figuring our money totals. I went a few days with Barkeep having the wrong total for me in the bank. However, by the time I did my books (so that I could subsequently cook them to get the "right" amount into the bank), things were straightened out in the PMs to me.

[Passacaglia]

I *told* you guys the cutthroats would bribe Mr. Wednesday!

Anyway, to explain my exit: I said that I didn't think I would be around at deadline, which I believed at the time, so before leaving work, I passed all my cash on hand to clap. But then I managed to get on half an hour before deadline, and I wasn't sure if BK received my order to transfer my money, so I sent him a PM asking to take it back. He wasn't around to let me know if I could take it back, so we decided to try to use it anyway, and if it didn't work, it didn't matter, since I was going to die anyway. So there really wasn't anything more going on other than just trying to keep me alive -- no tricks to see who had the cash to vote or anything like that. Actually, I wouldn't have even bothered trying to save myself if path hadn't given me 65K in a CD that I couldn't transfer (thanks path ) -- so I was just thinking that I'd try to spend 40K, bankrupt a villager, and get to keep that 65K.

I had a feeling there wouldn't be much stopping the cutthroats as the game went on -- the ability to transfer money, as well as to bribe anyone, was just too strong. The plan (at least when I left) was to keep the money between two wolves, and if one of them was in trouble, he could pass it to the other one. So as long as there were two wolves around, they'd be fine -- and they only had to spend 100K to add one more to their numbers. I wonder if things would have been different if we had started with 30K each, which was the original plan.

Great game, BK, and I agree with Alan, that it was a lot of fun being wolves with you guys (except Mr. Wednesday -- I was never actually a wolf with him ). It was weird being on the same wolf team as Alan, after being on the opposite team as him last time, but definitely fun.

[Mr. Wednesday]

In case anybody's interested, this is my set of real books through day 6. My first set of cooked books omitted the total theft from claphamsa (adjusted down) and pulled out a mythical CD investment to round off one of the intermediate bank totals.

I had won the notary public (used to change Tyrith's beneficiary), the lawyer (used to look at Chief's and SnDvls's beneficiaries, ultimately useless), the PI, and the bodyguard subsequent to the stuff that I was open and forthright about.

Time	B in	H in	B balance	H balance		CD two day in	CD two day out
Initial			20000			10000
Post day 1		15000	20000	15000
Post night 1	5000	-15000	25000	0		10000
Post day 2		15000	25000	26556			11556
Post night 2	60612	-26556	85612	0		16556
Post day 3	-40002	15000	45610	26556			11556
Adjustments	5000	6556	50610	33112
Post night 3	19390	-33112	70000	0		13722
Post day 4	-25005	15000	44995	34133			19133
Post night 4	14133	146208	59128	180341		20000
Post day 5	-1501	15000	57627	211198			15857
Post night 5			57627	211198
Post day 6		5000	57627	239311			23113
Adjustments	-57627	-13073	0	226238
Post night 6	37413	-47413	37413	178825
Notes:
* Barkeep initially said I had 33112 on hand and 50610 in the bank going into night 3, hence the adjustments line.
* Barkeep initially said I had 46905 on hand and 32223 in the bank going into night 4.
* We had perfect agreement on the post-day-5 balance (to within a dollar, presumably involving rounding or Barkeep carrying cents)
* The highlighted red amount is (presumably) known by Chief Rum; I have to be able to justify that amount in detail.
* The highlighted orange amount is one that I may disclosed publicly on day 4, post 898. My inclination is to not worry about that; I said subsequently that I was trying to straighten my money out
(and I was), and I may be able to sell something there. Chief Rum can only prove the red number.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Pass, note that only one conversion was allowed. I asked about that later on.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Pass, note that only one conversion was allowed. I asked about that later on.

Do you mean one night of conversions? The rules say 'player or players' which seems odd if it's only one conversion.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Hmm. Maybe it was only one night. Either way, nobody else was getting bribed during my tenure.

[Chief Rum]

Yes, the money there in red is about what I was told (I think actually I was told 44996, but piddling difference there).

So the wolves started with more individua money AND could bid on separate individual services? Those are pretty huge advantages, IMO.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yeah, I don't know what that's about it. Here's the PM:

7. Alan T 45,772
8. The Jackal 68,310
9. Chief Rum
11. Schmidty 30,000
13. SnDvls
14. Mr. Wednesday 147,325
16. DaddyTorgo

those numbers had to be wrong because I had $10K in the bank at all times

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

those numbers had to be wrong because I had $10K in the bank at all times

Man, what the heck?

[The Jackal]

I'd like to apologize for not being as much of a factor as I could. My plan all along was to rack up money with voting and just hope to lay low and then pull the end game strategy. Problem is I was away from the computer much more than I thought I would be, and so I never had a real grasp on what it was we should've been doing.

Funny thing, I think I set my bribe at 20k.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Man, what the heck?

what night was this scan again so i can pull my pm

[The Jackal]

Also, would the rich people have won if we'd done endgame when i voted it a few days ago? Just curious.

[SnDvls]

Night 4 I had $10K in the bank
Night 5 I had $10K in the bank
Night 6 I had $63K in the bank
Night 7 I had $40K in the bank

I know the scan was one of these nights

[SnDvls]

dola those are rough figures except for N4 & N5

[claphamsa]

yeah im an idiot

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I think a potential turning point in the game was when claphamsa said I only stole 9k from him. That number didn't make a whole lot of sense. What I had in mind to do was work out a cooked-books number that would make it look like he was OK. There were a couple of occasions where only having two people around to bid on services hurt us; I think if we could have kept Chief from getting the last FOB, he might not have been able to put the whole picture together when he did.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Funny thing, I think I set my bribe at 20k.

I set mine @ $100K like I said I was doing

also I think the fact that Arles never showed as my "original" heir I should have gotten to switch it without having to pay, but I never pushed the issue and I should have.

[SnDvls]

I guess I'll add my thoughts on the game later this weekend