Yet another school shooting.

[miami_fan]

Early reports put this suspect in the " I hate women" category.

[AlexB]

Yeah, looks that way. Or at least that he hated that women didn’t like him

[Edward64]

You know, you don't read about postal workers going postal anymore.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You know, you don't read about postal workers going postal anymore.

They probably still do - it just gets lost in amongst all the other mass shootings

SI

[QuikSand]

13 or more shot in Collierville TN today

Nothing to see here, move along

The Onion will cover this appropriately

[albionmoonlight]

The more I think of it, the more I am convinced that our reaction to Sandy Hook was really the inflection point.

One political party said "We are going to let innocent kids get slaughtered indiscriminately going forward in order to protect the feelings of non-college-educated Whites."

And that political party continued to win elections.

That was the moment. Everything flows from that. Trump. MAGA. White Nationalism. 1/6. All of it.

We get the government we deserve.

[JPhillips]

It's important to remember, though, that the people who made that decision are a minority. If the U.S. operated with a majority rules system, things would look different.

[Ksyrup]

This is a pretty scary video, but good on these kids for staying cool, not overreacting and recognizing the fake (assuming this is what it appears to be).

A student from inside Oxford High School captured this footage of the possible shooter trying to get into the classroom by impersonating a sheriff

The students did not open the door and escaped through a windowhttps://t.co/DCKb6l555w pic.twitter.com/gQWOuJPAAL

— philip lewis (@Phil_Lewis_) November 30, 2021

[tarcone]

Dont outlaw guns, outlaw bullets.

[RainMaker]

Still don't understand how a 15 year old gets unfettered access to a gun. Parents quickly lawyered up so who knows when we'll find that out.

[Ksyrup]

He used a gun his dad bought last week, from what I read.

[NobodyHere]

It's sad that a 15 year old would feel the need to shoot up a school.

[GrantDawg]

Nvm

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Dont outlaw guns, outlaw bullets.

As much as I hate the workaround there is something to this. I'd say in addition to.

[Edward64]

Teaser for the full interview on Thu. Won't watch it but interested to read Fri how the bullet got out of the gun he was holding if he didn't pull the trigger.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/01/enter...iew/index.html

Alec Baldwin told ABC News he never pulled the trigger of the gun that shot director of photography Halyna Hutchins on the set of "Rust."

"The trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger," Baldwin said in an excerpt released Wednesday from the sit-down interview -- his first since the October shooting.

When asked why he pointed the gun at Hutchins and pulled the trigger when that wasn't in the script, Baldwin said, "I would never point a gun at anyone and then pull the trigger, never."

Baldwin also said he has no idea how a live bullet got in the Colt .45 revolver he used in the scene. "Someone put a live bullet in the gun, a bullet that wasn't even supposed to be on the property," he said.

[RainMaker]

That interview feels like someone who has been heavily coached by an attorney. Maybe we have an expert in firearms here who can tell us if a homemade bullet could cause a gun to fire on its own, but I've never heard of that.

Even if he didn't pull the trigger, I was taught that you aren't supposed to aim guns at people (loaded or unloaded).

[Edward64]

Don't know if this can happen. I can easily believe his finger was on the trigger when he let go of the hammer. Competition guns can have triggers that don't take a lot of pressure.

The actor explained to ABC's George Stephanopoulos that the scene being rehearsed in the church at Bonanza Creek Ranch in New Mexico was going to show him cocking the gun, and he and Hutchins were going over how she wanted to position his hand.

"And I cock the gun, I go, "Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that?" and she says... and then I let go of the hammer of the gun, and the gun goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun, the gun goes off," Baldwin recalled.

He said he was aiming the gun just off to the side of the camera, as Hutchins was instructing him to, in her direction.

"I'm holding the gun where she told me to hold it, which ended up being aimed right below her armpit, was what I was told," Baldwin said.

We'll see what the FBI says

The sheriff’s department is awaiting results from the FBI which would shed light on how the gun could have been fired, “whether that was just pulling back the hammer – which hits the firing pin – just pulling the trigger or both,” Fox News Digital also reported.

[Galaril]

Clever and sad too:
Sly Anti-Gun Violence Ads : Change the Ref

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Still don't understand how a 15 year old gets unfettered access to a gun. Parents quickly lawyered up so who knows when we'll find that out.

The parents of the murderer have both been charged with 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

[Lathum]

Reading some of the reporting is horrific. The parents were called to the school and told their sun had written a note saying "the thoughts won't stop me, blood everywhere" with a picture of a gun. They were told he needs to be in counseling within 48 hours. They then left without him. What the actual fuck?

[Ksyrup]

Was that before or after they bought him the gun for Christmas? WTH is wrong with people? "We never would have believed he could do something like this. It came out of nowhere. We're shocked!"

[Lathum]

Aaron Rupar on Twitter: "An Oakland County prosecutor says a teacher caught Ethan Crumbley searching ammunition on his cellphone during class, notified administrators, & contacted Crumbley's parents. His mom wrote to his son, "LOL. I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught."… https://t.co/hIEJqd6kak"

[RainMaker]

Reading through a lot of stuff it sure does seem like the parents encouraged their kid to do this.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

The parents of the murderer have both been charged with 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

Wow, this has the potential to be a very widely and closely watched prosecution.

[Ksyrup]

And now the parents' whereabouts are unknown.

[cuervo72]

Whatever for? Surely they are due a multi-million dollar Republican/pro-gun backed defense fund.

[Ksyrup]

This is going to be one of those "our society is screwed" type of results if these people are found innocent. The facts here go well beyond most vague "troubled teen" scenarios.

The allegations detailed here are shocking:

- Father purchased gun
- Son bragged about the gun on social media
- Mother posted on social media about son "testing out his new Christmas present"

(1/x) https://t.co/V3KxoFIgzq

— Evan McMurry (@evanmcmurry) December 3, 2021

[sterlingice]

If I'm ever in a place where I hear there's a shooting at my son's school and my first thought isn't immediately "OMG, is he ok" but "oh crap, he's the shooter", oh man - what a dark place. How badly have I failed my child (and society)?

SI

[Galaril]

And Faux News angle is it is the schools fault. SMH.

[GrantDawg]

Edit: I hate tapatalk

[Edward64]

Sounds like a communication issue. If the parents had let their attorneys know and the attorney's had let the prosecutor know yesterday, then today's announcement of missing/manhunt for parents seem overboard.

More to come on this story I'm sure.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/us/mi...age/index.html

Hours after a prosecutor announced involuntary manslaughter charges against the parents of Ethan Crumbley, the 15-year-old accused of killing four fellow students at a Michigan high school, authorities said the parents are missing.

But in another twist, two attorneys who say they are representing the couple released a statement that said the Crumbleys had left town for their safety and are returning for an arraignment.

"On Thursday night we contacted the Oakland County prosecutor to discuss this matter and to advise her that James and Jennifer Crumbley would be turning themselves in to be arraigned," the statement from attorneys Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman said. "Instead of communicating with us, the prosecutor held a press conference to announce charges."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That interview feels like someone who has been heavily coached by an attorney. Maybe we have an expert in firearms here who can tell us if a homemade bullet could cause a gun to fire on its own, but I've never heard of that.

Even if he didn't pull the trigger, I was taught that you aren't supposed to aim guns at people (loaded or unloaded).

I haven't read about this story in depth, but since they were doing a western, I'm assuming the guns were of the 1873 Colt SA Army variety. I have a couple of these -- modern, good quality replicas manufactured in Italy following the original Colt patents.

One of the things you have to know about "cowboy guns" is that the cylinder holds six rounds of .45 Long Colt, but most people only ever load five. There's no effective safety on the original 1873 model. Half-cock is a sort of safety, but the tolerances are such that there's not a huge gap between the hammer-affixed firing pin and the primer. In essence, a good whack on the back of the hammer or dropping the hammer too quickly (which you can't do without your finger on the trigger) can fire the bullet.

So you load it in such a way (insert a cartridge, skip a chamber, load four more) that when you drop the hammer from the half-cock loading position, the hammer is resting on an empty chamber.

This doesn't really match up with the snippet from the interview above in terms of explaining how this could have happened accidentally based on Baldwin's statements. I'm just clarifying that in "cowboy guns" as they were originally designed, it's not only completely possible to have it go off without pulling the trigger, it's a known "feature" with standard workarounds.

(Modern replicas obviate this problem with floating firing pins on the hammer and/or hammer blocks that only disengage with a positive pull on the trigger.)

ETA: I posted before I read Edward's post. From those comments, this sounds exactly like what happened.

[GrantDawg]

Wow Drake. Interesting. My friends Dad when I was a kid had a .22 long rifle ammo pistol that would do the same thing.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Wow, this has the potential to be a very widely and closely watched prosecution.

This. I am super fascinated as to how they are going to go about prosecuting this one.

I honestly don't see it. There is nothing wrong with a father giving his son a gun as a present. That happens every day in this country. Re: the online search and the note. They are not the first parents to blow off concerns of a teacher, especially if it is one of "dem" teachers. I don't think it is illegal to search for ammo at school. The school has no authority to force the parents to get the child counseling if they don't want to. Finally, when they heard something was up,, they begged the kid not to do it and contacted 911.

[JPhillips]

My guess is that Baldwin didn't consciously pull the trigger, but he did put enough pressure to cause it to fire. That kind of thing happens all the time with actors. They aren't often perfectly in control of their bodies, especially when they are thinking about other things.

But Baldwin certainly isn't liable as the actor. He may be as the producer, bt as the actor you don't want him checking the gun or opening it. Overall that causes a lot more problems than it would solve. The armourer does the first check, the AD does the backup, and the actor behaves as they have been trained to.

There's no good excuse for a live round on set, though.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Sounds like a communication issue. If the parents had let their attorneys know and the attorney's had let the prosecutor know yesterday, then today's announcement of missing/manhunt for parents seem overboard.

More to come on this story I'm sure.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/03/us/mi...age/index.html

This seems like a defense attorney trying to protect a client.

The Sheriff put out a statement afterward saying they still do not know where the couple is and are not aware that the couple is returning despite what the defense attorney said. I just find it hard to believe that both the Sheriff and Prosecutor would be saying this stuff if they didn't believe the couple had fled.

The parents should be considered armed and dangerous fugitives. These are not minor charges. They're being given extraordinary leeway here that others wouldn't get.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Drake

I haven't read about this story in depth, but since they were doing a western, I'm assuming the guns were of the 1873 Colt SA Army variety. I have a couple of these -- modern, good quality replicas manufactured in Italy following the original Colt patents.

One of the things you have to know about "cowboy guns" is that the cylinder holds six rounds of .45 Long Colt, but most people only ever load five. There's no effective safety on the original 1873 model. Half-cock is a sort of safety, but the tolerances are such that there's not a huge gap between the hammer-affixed firing pin and the primer. In essence, a good whack on the back of the hammer or dropping the hammer too quickly (which you can't do without your finger on the trigger) can fire the bullet.

So you load it in such a way (insert a cartridge, skip a chamber, load four more) that when you drop the hammer from the half-cock loading position, the hammer is resting on an empty chamber.

This doesn't really match up with the snippet from the interview above in terms of explaining how this could have happened accidentally based on Baldwin's statements. I'm just clarifying that in "cowboy guns" as they were originally designed, it's not only completely possible to have it go off without pulling the trigger, it's a known "feature" with standard workarounds.

(Modern replicas obviate this problem with floating firing pins on the hammer and/or hammer blocks that only disengage with a positive pull on the trigger.)

ETA: I posted before I read Edward's post. From those comments, this sounds exactly like what happened.

Very interesting. I hadn't thought about it being such an old gun.

I still keep thinking about the fact that the gun had to be pointed in her direction at one time. You know firearm safety more than me, but I was always taught to NEVER point a gun at someone even if it isn't loaded.

[AlexB]

You know what’s even safer? Never hold a gun…

[Drake]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Very interesting. I hadn't thought about it being such an old gun.

I still keep thinking about the fact that the gun had to be pointed in her direction at one time. You know firearm safety more than me, but I was always taught to NEVER point a gun at someone even if it isn't loaded.

You're correct, but in the context of filming a move -- or even rehearsing what you're going to do when the filming starts -- you've got a different set of concerns. I mean, I know they can do things with staging and camera angles to help with it...but at some point, if you're acting out a shooting, you have to point the gun for some shots, I'd think.

I don't hold Baldwin responsible here, even if he was getting clicky with his finger on the trigger. There shouldn't have ever been live rounds on the set. Everything should have been double and triple checked. That's on the armorer (and maybe the AD, as JPhillips says above. He'd know more about those roles than I do...since, if I'm recalling correctly, theater is his professional background.)

My not-a-lawyer impression in this case is that Baldwin will face some financial penalties here (as the producer, not as the actor) because he's ultimately responsible for the negligence on the set, but he won't face criminal charges. It wouldn't surprise me if the armorer gets charged with manslaughter or whatever "accidental death due to negligence" standards exist in that state.

[GrantDawg]

I'm a little surprised the armorer hasn't already been charged.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[NobodyHere]

Alex Baldwin's wife's name is Hilaria.

I find that amusing.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Sounds like a communication issue. If the parents had let their attorneys know and the attorney's had let the prosecutor know yesterday, then today's announcement of missing/manhunt for parents seem overboard.

More to come on this story I'm sure.

These guys have just made it worse for themselves.

I get freaking out when hearing for a manhunt for them (debatable if authorities should have announced it when they did) but easy way out is just follow their attorneys' directions.

But I do want to know:

• If their attorneys did tell authorities on Thu that their clients had gone into hiding for their safety and will appear for arraignment on Fri (prob yes)
• If authorities decided to call for a manhunt before they were overdue (prob yes)
• And know why authorities did that (e.g. was it just that parents couldn't be contacted, prosecutors grandstanding, or did they have evidence the parents were fleeing, attorney's message didn't get through etc.)

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/04/us/mi...day/index.html

A tip led police to the parents of Ethan Crumbley, the suspect in the Oxford High School shooting, who were arrested in Detroit on manslaughter charges, officials said Saturday.

James and Jennifer Crumbley were found on the first floor of an industrial building near where authorities had located their car shortly before they were apprehended, Detroit Police spokesperson Rudy Harper told CNN.

"They appeared to be hiding in the building," Detroit Police Chief James White said during a news conference early Saturday morning. They were "very distressed" after they were detained, the chief said.
:
:
But White pointed out that there was no sign the Crumbleys wanted to be found. He added the couple was assisted in getting inside the building, a matter which may trigger charges.

"This isn't indicative of turning themselves in, hiding in a warehouse," the police chief said.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I'm a little surprised the armorer hasn't already been charged.

My not-a-lawyer impression in this case is that Baldwin will face some financial penalties here (as the producer, not as the actor) because he's ultimately responsible for the negligence on the set, but he won't face criminal charges. It wouldn't surprise me if the armorer gets charged with manslaughter or whatever "accidental death due to negligence" standards exist in that state.

Now that you mention it ... there was negligence there. But not sure if its the armorer or AD or both.

https://apnews.com/article/prop-gun-...02f731b6ec54ea

However Halls (the AD) obtained the weapon before giving it to Baldwin, he failed to fully check it. Normally, he told detectives, he would examine the barrel for obstructions and have Gutierrez Reed (the armorer) open the hatch and spin the drum where the bullets go, confirming none of the rounds is live.

This time, he reported, he could only remember seeing three of the rounds, and he didn’t remember if the armorer had spun the drum.

Nevertheless, he yelled out “cold gun” to indicate it was safe to use.

“He advised he should have checked all of them, but didn’t,” a Santa Fe County sheriff’s detective wrote in the affidavit released Wednesday.

It’s unclear whether Baldwin deliberately pulled the trigger or if the gun went off inadvertently.

In the commotion after the shooting, Halls found the weapon — a black revolver manufactured by an Italian company that specializes in 19th century reproductions — on a church pew.

He brought it to Gutierrez Reed and told her to open it so he could see what was inside. There were at least four dummy bullet casings, with the small hole in the side, he told detectives.

There was one empty casing. It had no hole.

Still not buying Baldwin's "I didn't pull the trigger" yet and do want to know what the FBI has to say after examining the gun.

[JPhillips]

After seeing the full answer, what Baldwin says makes perfect sense. According to him, they were checking a shot that had his thump on the hammer. He kept pulling back the hammer a bit until he was told that was right for the shot. When he released the hammer, which was half-cocked or so, the bullet fired. That's a much more believable and understandable explanation than the clickbait headlines about not pulling the trigger.

I know it was a small budget movie, but even at my level of theatre, we don't use firing guns unless they need to fire, and if they do need to fire we don't do anything with them just in case we could fire them early. You do need to treat firing guns much differently than non-firing.

[Ksyrup]

Re the MI parents, it definitely wouldn't shock me if the prosecutor wanted to make more of a splash by turning a low-key voluntary surrender away from cameras into something more. I was once involved, from the administrative side, on a case against a bunch of Insurance agents whose attorneys offered a voluntary surrender which was rejected by the cops so they could film a 5am arrest at their houses and do the perp walk for publicity.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Now that you mention it ... there was negligence there. But not sure if its the armorer or AD or both.

https://apnews.com/article/prop-gun-...02f731b6ec54ea


Still not buying Baldwin's "I didn't pull the trigger" yet and do want to know what the FBI has to say after examining the gun.

It would be both not either, or. The armorer's responsibility is make sure the gun never had live rounds in it in the first place. The AD not making the full check is one thing, but everything to do with that gun is fully the responsibility of the armorer.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Re the MI parents, it definitely wouldn't shock me if the prosecutor wanted to make more of a splash by turning a low-key voluntary surrender away from cameras into something more. I was once involved, from the administrative side, on a case against a bunch of Insurance agents whose attorneys offered a voluntary surrender which was rejected by the cops so they could film a 5am arrest at their houses and do the perp walk for publicity.

I will also say that law enforcement and/or probation and/or prosecutors generally lack the language to describe something as anything other than "absconding."

If a Defendant, say, shows up to report at the wrong office, they will describe that as "absconding" from supervision or "escaping" from custody. Once everyone figures out what happened and that it really was an honest mistake and the defendant explains that to the Court, then everything is fine.

But the default is to call it absconding/escape and make the Defendant show it was an honest mistake.

So I'm not really sure what these parents did, but if their attorney was, say, in negotiations with the prosecutors for a voluntary surrender and some arbitrary deadline passed while that was happening, they could be considered in "escape" status without having done anything that anyone would consider wrong.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It would be both not either, or. The armorer's responsibility is make sure the gun never had live rounds in it in the first place. The AD not making the full check is one thing, but everything to do with that gun is fully the responsibility of the armorer.

I don't know how it works legally, but practically, it's the fault of both of them. The check from the AD is there to catch any mistakes from the armorer.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I will also say that law enforcement and/or probation and/or prosecutors generally lack the language to describe something as anything other than "absconding."

If a Defendant, say, shows up to report at the wrong office, they will describe that as "absconding" from supervision or "escaping" from custody. Once everyone figures out what happened and that it really was an honest mistake and the defendant explains that to the Court, then everything is fine.

But the default is to call it absconding/escape and make the Defendant show it was an honest mistake.

So I'm not really sure what these parents did, but if their attorney was, say, in negotiations with the prosecutors for a voluntary surrender and some arbitrary deadline passed while that was happening, they could be considered in "escape" status without having done anything that anyone would consider wrong.

Not sure I'd say that hiding in the basement of a warehouse that someone had to let them in to was meeting at the wrong place when they never showed up to the arraignment.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I will also say that law enforcement and/or probation and/or prosecutors generally lack the language to describe something as anything other than "absconding."

If a Defendant, say, shows up to report at the wrong office, they will describe that as "absconding" from supervision or "escaping" from custody. Once everyone figures out what happened and that it really was an honest mistake and the defendant explains that to the Court, then everything is fine.

But the default is to call it absconding/escape and make the Defendant show it was an honest mistake.

So I'm not really sure what these parents did, but if their attorney was, say, in negotiations with the prosecutors for a voluntary surrender and some arbitrary deadline passed while that was happening, they could be considered in "escape" status without having done anything that anyone would consider wrong.

They pulled $4000 from an ATM early in the morning, failed to show up to an arraignment, didn't stay in contact with authorities, turned off their phones, ditched their car, and were caught hiding out in a basement of a building just a short distance from the Canadian border.

This couple has gotten an insane amount of leeway. We don't have to pretend this was some misunderstanding. They were fleeing and the police were right about this. If anything, without the police coming out and saying they were on the run, their car wouldn't have been spotted and they'd be somewhere in Canada right now.