The Trump Presidency – 2016

[RedKingGold]

PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT

[Izulde]

Unanimous Senate vote to see the whistleblower complaint. Trump might well be thoroughly fucked now.

[Edward64]

I wonder what the Ukrainian President is thinking about all of this. It would be great if we can get a copy of his transcripts.

[bob]

Can someone give me a non-political description of what is going on with this Ukraine thing. I was camping for a few days and have missed everything, and can't find a brief description without either 1) the assumption that you know some background or 2) a heavy dose of "we got him now" or "another witch hunt" added in.

[cuervo72]

And the totally unsurprising response:

Facts be damned. Democrats are insisting this is their moment to impeach President Trump.

Speaker Pelosi’s decree changes nothing.https://t.co/xiNp1WXYoy

— Kevin McCarthy (@GOPLeader) September 24, 2019

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bob

Can someone give me a non-political description of what is going on with this Ukraine thing. I was camping for a few days and have missed everything, and can't find a brief description without either 1) the assumption that you know some background or 2) a heavy dose of "we got him now" or "another witch hunt" added in.

The basic gist is that apparently Trump withheld funds allocated to Ukraine until they agreed to dig up/make up dirt on Biden and his son's dealings in the Ukraine. A whistleblower made a complaint back in August about what they overheard relating to this, and the whistleblower's complaints are not being forwarded on by the administration.

[bob]

Originally Posted by cartman

The basic gist is that apparently Trump withheld funds allocated to Ukraine until they agreed to dig up/make up dirt on Biden and his son's dealings in the Ukraine. A whistleblower made a complaint back in August about what they overheard relating to this, and the whistleblower's complaints are not being forwarded on by the administration.

Thanks - so the Biden / Ukraine stuff is bunk? I'd have to assume so, because I'd think we use funds like that to get other governments to do what we want all the time.

[JPhillips]

According to everyone who has seriously looked into the issue, there's nothing to the Biden/Ukraine stuff. The timeline doesn't work, the pressure to remove the prosecutor came from a group of countries, and the new prosecutor had a much tougher/less corrupt reputation.

But, of course, none of that matters. Biden could have personally ordered a hit and what Trump did would still be a gross abuse of office. This isn't an either/or situation.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

And the totally unsurprising response:

Facts be damned. Democrats are insisting this is their moment to impeach President Trump.

Speaker Pelosi’s decree changes nothing.https://t.co/xiNp1WXYoy

— Kevin McCarthy (@GOPLeader) September 24, 2019

Why hasn't any reporter been dogged about getting a response to McCarthy saying he thought Putin had Trump on the payroll? He's a total disgrace.

[bob]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But, of course, none of that matters. Biden could have personally ordered a hit and what Trump did would still be a gross abuse of office.

Ok, here is where I get confused. As I stated previously, I assume we withhold (or threaten to) funds all the time to get countries to act how we want. Is it just that it could benefit him politically that is the issue here? Also, I keep hearing "treason" thrown around. I don't get how that would treason.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by bob

Ok, here is where I get confused. As I stated previously, I assume we withhold (or threaten to) funds all the time to get countries to act how we want. Is it just that it could benefit him politically that is the issue here? Also, I keep hearing "treason" thrown around. I don't get how that would treason.

It's because it's asking a foreign government to intervene in our election that it's an issue.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by cartman

The basic gist is that apparently Trump withheld funds allocated to Ukraine until they agreed to dig up/make up dirt on Biden and his son's dealings in the Ukraine. A whistleblower made a complaint back in August about what they overheard relating to this, and the whistleblower's complaints are not being forwarded on by the administration.

To add to this and what's blown this scandal up is the fact that the whistleblower's complaint was deemed "serious and urgent" by the intel IG which by the spirit of the law means the complaint should head to congress for investigation. Instead, Trump's acting director of national intelligence took the complaint to the DOJ for guidance and both the White House and the DOJ are refusing to allow congress to see the complaint.

So the White House is trying to bury a complaint, we have a whistleblower that isn't being guaranteed any protections, and a congress that can't see a complaint they're legally obligated to see.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by bob

Ok, here is where I get confused. As I stated previously, I assume we withhold (or threaten to) funds all the time to get countries to act how we want. Is it just that it could benefit him politically that is the issue here? Also, I keep hearing "treason" thrown around. I don't get how that would treason.

It is also a gross violation of Hunter Bidens civil liberties.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Izulde

It's because it's asking a foreign government to intervene in our election that it's an issue.

So if Biden wasn’t running for election this wouldn’t be an issue?

And even if the is running, is that treason?

I’m not trying to be an ass here, I’m just trying to figure out exactly what the line was that he crossed.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Unanimous Senate vote to see the whistleblower complaint. Trump might well be thoroughly fucked now.

Publicly they're going to stand with Trump and see if public opinion (of their voters fuck everyone else) shifts and how much substance there is to the complaint. If opinion shifts and there's something to this then they'll try to find a way to distance themselves. Based on the number of congressional members that have retired since 2018 it's clear most hate dealing with Trump. They just don't have a way out without giving up national politics right now.

If this results in Trump getting 4 more years then that's what we deserve. At some point you have to draw the line at the weakening of our democracy and do the right thing.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is also a gross violation of Hunter Bidens civil liberties.

Explain please. Asking another country to investigate a persons actions in that country violates his civil liberties?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by bob

So if Biden wasn’t running for election this wouldn’t be an issue?

And even if the is running, is that treason?

I’m not trying to be an ass here, I’m just trying to figure out exactly what the line was that he crossed.

Treason is thrown around way too much by both sides.

The primary issue is you have the President of the United States acting in his official capacity seeking election aid from a foreign government.

You also have the President violating Hunter Biden's civil liberties (Hunter Biden's own government is compelling a foreign government to investigate him), as Lathum mentioned and the use of extortion for political gain by our president.

The constitutional scholars I've read have said all 3 are clearly impeachable offenses.

[Lathum]

Was just listening to FOX news in the car. They are actually sounding unbias for them. Hedging for sure. Then they had Matt Whittaker on who said Bill Barr will always chose to be transparent and I laughed and laughed.

[cartman]

“The President actually said to Nancy Pelosi, ‘Hey, can we do something about this whistleblower complaint, can we work something out.’ And she said ‘Yes, you can tell your people to obey the law.’ So she quickly swatted that down." - @HeidiNBC https://t.co/vtWnAww1ch

— MSNBC (@MSNBC) September 24, 2019

[mauchow]

There is a tweet for everything..... has to be.

[molson]

I don't watch any TV news, and I don't click on news video clips online, so I don't see a lot of Trump in action. If you're like me, you should take a quick peek in with what's going on with this guy, it's amazing:

Aaron Rupar on Twitter: "Trump ends his bilateral media availability with the Polish president by claiming that "if a Republican ever did what Joe Biden did ... they'd be getting the electric chair right now," before calling the assembled journalists "crooked as hell." 😳… https://t.co/mc9WhwDeE7"

When I was a kid Ronald Reagan was mocked for being a little folksy on occasion, I thought those criticisms were silly even then. What is happening with the office of the POTUS right now is mind-blowing.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by cartman

“The President actually said to Nancy Pelosi, ‘Hey, can we do something about this whistleblower complaint, can we work something out.’ And she said ‘Yes, you can tell your people to obey the law.’ So she quickly swatted that down." - @HeidiNBC https://t.co/vtWnAww1ch

— MSNBC (@MSNBC) September 24, 2019

If true, then he realizes he crossed a line and his presidency is in jeopardy. Which means he's likely to lash out far worse than usual.

[PilotMan]

There are some exceptionally optimistic people hanging around here and I think that it comes from the hope that something happens, but the reality is that all the R's are doing is making it look like something could happen. They realize that if they don't at least make it look like they tried, they are going to face an even greater uphill battle in 2020. Instead, they can kind of, sort of, go with it and come up with some other sort of plausible excuse for not going along. It's far beyond time that the D's start to talk past him and discuss the real people who are governing the country. Publicly marginalizing him that way, as if he no longer matters, would get under his skin so fast. It just seems like nothing really makes a difference anymore. The only real comments I hear are "he didn't lie under oath, and he wasn't recorded plotting against political opponents with government tools. It's like those are the only reasons and everything else is just crazy talk.

[mauchow]

Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "Are you allowed to impeach a president for gross incompetence?"

Yes, yes there is a tweet for everything.

[stevew]

Once it hits a tipping point in polling they’ll serve him up. Pence is intertwined with a lot of these people. Plus he’s an easy sell to the GOTv Christian conservative block.

[Edward64]

Giuliani is an interesting guy. I read in another article that he has exposure also. He is just as annoying as Trump except he only pops up occasionally.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-news-ukraine/

On Fox News, Giuliani vigorously defended himself and Trump. He argued that he only contacted Ukrainian officials at the request of the State Department, called for investigations of “corrupt” Democrats, and repeatedly alleged that former vice president Joe Biden and his son Hunter had done wrong in Ukraine. The allegation about the Bidens, which Trump has also voiced, has not been backed up by any official evidence thus far, The Post’s Fact Checker reported.

Afterward, Giuliani took to Twitter into early Wednesday morning to double down on his earlier claims.

“Democrat party is covering up a pattern of corruption involving high level members of the Obama cabinet,” Giuliani tweeted around 1 a.m. “The multi-million and billion dollar pay-for-play is mind boggling.”
:
:
When Ingraham asked whether he inserted himself into Ukrainian discussions, Giuliani confirmed that he did. Then, he repeated a past assertion that the State Department had enlisted his help.

“I never talked to a Ukrainian official until the State Department called me and asked me to do it and then I reported every conversation back to them. I’m a pretty good lawyer, just a country lawyer, but it’s all here, right here,” he said, holding up his cellphone to suggest that call records would provide confirmation.

[PilotMan]

He really should be zeroing in on Pizzagate. I mean, that's where the Deep State is really out of control. They're just out there, pulling all the strings, even his, and he's is virtually powerless to resist.

I’m a pretty good lawyer, just a country lawyer,

[JPhillips]

This won't end without Trump and company going full Q.

[Butter]

"Democrat party is covering up a pattern of corruption by the Obama cabinet".

How? You control the executive branch. If you have proof of something, then arrest them. Tell us what it is. It's like they are just stalling until Ukraine/Russia can manufacture some bogus evidence.

[Edward64]

Transcripts just released. This should be a fun day of analysis.

[JPhillips]

They are staggering. I can't believe Trump released them. Without anything else, this is enough to be removed from office.

[I. J. Reilly]

Makes one wonder how bad the full whistleblower complaint is if releasing this transcript is considered the best they can do for the President.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They are staggering. I can't believe Trump released them. Without anything else, this is enough to be removed from office.

Literally one of the dumbest things he's done and that's saying a lot.

Of course a lot of his true believers are like "so what".

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They are staggering. I can't believe Trump released them. Without anything else, this is enough to be removed from office.

I haven't read the transcripts yet but haven't we been saying this for the last 3 scandals?

The real question is will any Republican senators budge on this.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I haven't read the transcripts yet but haven't we been saying this for the last 3 scandals?

The real question is will any Republican senators budge on this.

I'm not saying he will be removed from office, but these transcripts lay out a clear reason to be removed from office. It's all there in black and white.

The whistleblower complaint must be nuclear if they thought releasing this instead would same them.

[cartman]

Also this isn't a transcript, it is a "memorandum of telephone conversation", which is a different thing.

He also asked in there to see if Hillary's email server was in Ukraine.

[JPhillips]

"I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call and I am also going to have Attorney General Barr call and we will get to the bottom of it."

edit:

"The United States has been very ·very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine... I would like you to do us a favor."

That's it, right there.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by cartman

Also this isn't a transcript, it is a "memorandum of telephone conversation", which is a different thing.

Trump doesn't speak that coherently.

[albionmoonlight]

Oh my goodness. He can't even fake a transcript properly because he has to make it seem like the Ukraine leaders are a bunch of MAGA heads:

[JPhillips]

The Office of Legal Counsel released an opinion that the DNI doesn't have to turn over the whistleblower complaint to Congress.

Given what they are willing to release, it must be terrible.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Trump doesn't speak that coherently.

Heh. Well at least this part sounds like a word for word...

[stevew]

Originally Posted by cartman

Also this isn't a transcript, it is a "memorandum of telephone conversation", which is a different thing.

He also asked in there to see if Hillary's email server was in Ukraine.

There’s audio of this, right? The audio dropping will surely be the final nail I’d hope.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by stevew

There’s audio of this, right? The audio dropping will surely be the final nail I’d hope.

I'm sure there is. Keep in mind the white house logged this call as a 30 minute conversation so what we're seeing here is likely the least damaging portion they could release.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by stevew

There’s audio of this, right? The audio dropping will surely be the final nail I’d hope.

There is no final nail. He will never be removed from office and his supporters will scream vindication.

[cartman]

the White House sent out an email with the talking points to accompany the release of the memo. To the Democrats. Which they then tried to recall.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cartman

the White House sent out an email with the talking points to accompany the release of the memo. To the Democrats. Which they then tried to recall.

He. Hires. The. Best. People.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Lathum

There is no final nail. He will never be removed from office and his supporters will scream vindication.

These things come together quickly. This isn’t conjecture. It’s verifiable treason

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I'll just put this here:

I think that it is likely that Trump remains President until the 2020 election (which he may win or lose. Too far out for me to have a feeling about that one).

But, IF Trump does leave before then, a'la Nixon, it will not be a gradual thing. It won't be his approval going from 40 to 39 to 38 to 37 . . . and a GOP Senator coming out against him. And the next week another. Then a month later another one.

It will hit some tipping point, and then it will happen very quickly. On Monday, things will seem to be going like they've been. And by that Friday, it will be President Pence.

Again, I'm thinking that this does not happen at all. But if it does, it will be measured in days and hours, not weeks and months.

[Edward64]

The accidentally mailed talking points memo.

Andrew Desiderio on Twitter: "Hmmm… The White House just sent its talking points on Ukraine to House Democrats.

Here are some screenshots, per source.… https://t.co/KkciCoH8gm"

[albionmoonlight]

FWIW, I think that Trump survives this (by survive, I mean remains President through his first term).