OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Totally agree with you - if they can figure a way to compress it without damaging like the...core of the story, then I'm 1000% good with that.

To date, I think the show has done an amazing job with how it's cut, switched and consolidated events and characters, while still maintaining the integrity of the core of the story and the core of most of the characters involved.

The show is a stunning achievement.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

To date, I think the show has done an amazing job with how it's cut, switched and consolidated events and characters, while still maintaining the integrity of the core of the story and the core of most of the characters involved.

The show is a stunning achievement.

I tend to agree for the most part. I say for the most part because I'm sure someone could find something I've disagreed with, or I could if I looked hard enough, but I try to view them as separate and not let my enjoyment of one bleed over into critiquing the other.

[BishopMVP]

I try not to read speculation too deeply, but I saw someone say they're basically giving the Myrcella plot to Trystanne (while aging him, and presumably Myrcella, up from the books.) I don't entirely get it because Arianne was a good character, but it makes sense from their consolidation standpoint.

To date the only real character/plotline the showrunners messed up imo was the Halfhand north of the wall. Although it was disappointing they cut Strong Belwas, and I haven't loved their portrayal of Stannis, although that's gotten better recently.

[ISiddiqui]

One of the reasons I'm re-reading the series is because, in addition to seeing where GRRM foreshadows or leaves clues in earlier books, I felt that people were way too harsh on AFFC and ADWD based on their own expectations of what should happen. I strongly feel that the Tyrion chapters in ADWD falls under that.

Martin put that on himself by separating POVs between the two characters. People had been waiting on Tyrion's chapters for so long that they expected some action rather than exposition that comes with the resetting of pieces after the end of the War of the Five Kings. Tyrion's chapters were boring because it was just him floating along a river. I think this misses a TON of background. All the while we are getting more and more exposition on Aegon and how he's been raised to lead. Tyrion's slow moving realization of this fact is very well done. As for the Penny centric chapters, the ones on the boat move slow, but there are literally only TWO of those (Tyrion VII and Tyrion VIII of ADWD - in Tyrion IX, he arranges a joust between Penny to get on the good side of their slaver). The chapters involving joining the Second Suns are anything but dull.

I think the show did a decent job in trying to fit in the books as well, but it lost me the second half of last season. It seemed it decided at that point, the Hell with making it a good adaptation, let's tell the story we want (as well as turning every other sex scene into a rape, and a strange desire to show as many torture scenes as they could get away with...). It's the only season so far I haven't pre-ordered as soon as it came out on sale because it seemed like such a mess to me. As for appreciating the show for what it is... I've had more than one person be confused about a show plot point until I explained it based on stuff in the books that seemingly wasn't fully indicated in the show (or rather seemingly mentioned in an offhand way and people didn't catch it).

And it appears to be more more apparent that they are extricating the Aegon storyline. One can refer to it as a minor plot plot if you want, but I think you are crazy when the first released Winds of Winter chapter (POV character? Arianne) had Aegon's forces taking Storm's End to consider it something easy to cut out. Even if the forces get beaten back, they obviously will have repercussions for how characters act in the future.

[ISiddiqui]

To be honest, GRRM's biggest mistake was separating AFFC and ADWD by geography rather than by making it chronological. Ending AFFC with Tyrion's realization that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen would have been a brilliant end to the book.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And it appears to be more more apparent that they are extricating the Aegon storyline. One can refer to it as a minor plot plot if you want, but I think you are crazy when the first released Winds of Winter chapter (POV character? Arianne) had Aegon's forces taking Storm's End to consider it something easy to cut out. Even if the forces get beaten back, they obviously will have repercussions for how characters act in the future.

100% agree with this. I wonder though if it's just a case of them rearranging things and maybe we'll see Aegon the season after next? Who knows...

[ISiddiqui]

Back to more interesting stuff, rather than how the show has disappointed me like a son who decides to follow a rival sports team...

House of the Undying PART 2 (ok, one more... House of the Undying sucked balls in the show...)

Dany gets past the long corridor. Then runs into two fake visions, designed to make her not go to the door on the right... a vision of Pyat Pree telling Dany she took the wrong path and one of her ideal of the Undying congratulating her.

She follows instructions and ends up seeing the actual Undying, who are almost wasted away blue husks powered by a massive blue heart in the middle of the table... and then they prophecy:

“I have come for the gift of truth,” Dany said. “In the long hall, the things I saw... were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?”
...the shape of shadows... morrows not yet made... drink from the cup of ice... drink from the cup of fire...
...mother of dragons... child of three...
“Three?” She did not understand.
...three heads has the dragon... the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air.... mother of dragons... child of storm... The whispers became a swirling song.... three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love... Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt... three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love... The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath.... three treasons will you know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love...

Now some have tried to combine things here. The Fire for life and death is the one that killed Mirri Maz Dur and gave birth to dragons, but I think that's cheating - it says three fires, not three things will happen IN a fire.

Though I think the fire for life is likely the dragons and the one for death is the one Drogon lights when he kills the Undying (as they are trying to kill Dany and feed on her lifeforce... or something).

Three mounts - Daaaario is the one to bed. To dread could be Drogon, esp after the chaos in Meereen at the end of ADWD.

Three treasons - Jorah was obviously for gold. Mirri Maz Dur may have been for blood (I just read it not that long ago, but I think she had her family killed by the Dothraki and that's partially why she cursed Dany?).


And then a crazy amount of visions..

I'll do that in a new post... for formatting sake..

[ISiddiqui]

The visions...

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

This is when Viserys was 'crowned' by Drogo, obviously.

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

Some have speculated that this was the Rheago to have been. Though the fiery stallion is interesting... Does Rheago who was to have been become a follower of the Lord of Light?

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name....

Rhaegar at the Trident... I bet he murmurs Lyanna.

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

Stannis. Who (I checked) has blue eyes.

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Seems as though there is a celebration of Dany's rule... or Aegon's. I don't recall cloth dragons at Meereen... but I haven't re-read that part yet. Could be Westeros.

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire....

Stannis leaving Dragonstone perhaps? Stone beasts are everywhere on the island.. and shadow fire...

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

Seems a vision of when going through the Dothraki Sea.

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

Some have speculated this is Jon Connington. He has grayscale, which will likely take him sooner rather than later... grey lips, corpse standing... could be.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness....

Blue flower stands for Lyanna Stark. Her child, Jon Snow, is at the Wall.

Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible.

Mirri Maz Dur's blood magic.

A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.

Dany as a child in Braavos.

Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow

Drogo's pyre.

Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.

The wineseller who tried to poison Dany in Vaes Dothrek.

A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.

Drogo gave Dany a white lion pelt. She is taller than most men in stature.

Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

This is interesting... the crones bow before Dany. I wonder if this is yet to come, because Dany is with Drogon on the Dothraki Sea when found by Khal Jhaqo.

Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them.

When the Slaves of Slaver's Bay call her Mhysa.

[ISiddiqui]

"The World of Ice and Fire" tomb is absolutely magnificent! First of all, it's huge! It's like 9 by 12 and 400 pages long! The pages are made of great quality (which is very nice indeed in giving the feel of an important history of the realm type of book). Unfortunate the cover is kind of this puffy material which feels cheap (though likely isn't) - would have preferred regular hard cover.

The content is fantastic! It goes through the history of Westeros from the beginnings (First Men) to covering every reign of every Targaryen King and then the War that supplanted the Targaryens from the Iron Throne. Then it goes deeply into the history of each major region of Westeros. Followed by a page or two on the Free Cities and beyond. And then an Appendix with a handful of ancestry trees and charts.

Absolutely worth the money! More than I expected this book to be! I completely recommend getting it!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

"The World of Ice and Fire" tomb is absolutely magnificent! First of all, it's huge! It's like 9 by 12 and 400 pages long! The pages are made of great quality (which is very nice indeed in giving the feel of an important history of the realm type of book). Unfortunate the cover is kind of this puffy material which feels cheap (though likely isn't) - would have preferred regular hard cover.

The content is fantastic! It goes through the history of Westeros from the beginnings (First Men) to covering every reign of every Targaryen King and then the War that supplanted the Targaryens from the Iron Throne. Then it goes deeply into the history of each major region of Westeros. Followed by a page or two on the Free Cities and beyond. And then an Appendix with a handful of ancestry trees and charts.

Absolutely worth the money! More than I expected this book to be! I completely recommend getting it!

Slow going though - I'm making my way real slowly through it. Hopefully this weekend I have some time.

[ISiddiqui]

Wouldn't have it any other way than slow going. Lots of great info and beautiful art. This is one of the best, if not the best (though it may be sacrilege to put it ahead of the Similarion), historical book of a fantasy setting.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't have my hands on World, but I don't think you're committing sacrilege putting it against the Silmarillion. The latter is an Epic Poem/Saga kind of thing that just happens to cover most of the history, though that wasn't necessarily the primary intent. So, they're quite different, and both probably excellent.

[DaddyTorgo]

Quite different from the Silmarillion. Different mindset when reading it. Need to spend more time with World this weekend though - I'm only a handful of pages in and determined not to skip around.

[ISiddiqui]

Also, if one wants to make a high quality historical-ish hardcover, I would have liked to see one or two ribbons to mark one's place.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Also, if one wants to make a high quality historical-ish hardcover, I would have liked to see one or two ribbons to mark one's place.

Yeah - I felt like that was missing as well.

[ISiddiqui]

Also, I stayed up waaaaaay too late reading the book. Was enthralled in the "Dance of the Dragons" stuff (the reigns of Jaeherys the something [I know, helpful ] and Aegon II in the book)

[PilotMan]

Amazon has "The World of Ice and Fire" for $25 in hardcover. Use code HOLIDAY30 this weekend to take 30% more off. You can use a free trial of Prime for free shipping. Makes it $17.50 shipped to your house.

[Ramzavail]

I got it. I imagine ALOT of people picked this up during this weekend.

[PilotMan]

Me too. It was the #1 bestseller in the genre. Mine is a gift so I'll have to wait to read it though.

[DaddyTorgo]

What platform do you guys think is best for the Telltale games game? PC vs. console?

[IlliniCub]

For me I always would choose PC for a point and click adventure type game.

[Zinto]

George RR Martin on Twitter: "On the first day...House Tully came bearing gifts...#12DaysofWesteros http://t.co/I2rll6fR70"

I am not sure how many of you have seen this but the buzz is that at the end the Winds of Winter will be announced.(This is my first go around waiting for a book so I believe it)

Or it could just be the trailer for season 5 but I am holding out hope.

[flere-imsaho]

Stop being cute, George, and finish the books.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Zinto

George RR Martin on Twitter: "On the first day...House Tully came bearing gifts...#12DaysofWesteros http://t.co/I2rll6fR70"

I am not sure how many of you have seen this but the buzz is that at the end the Winds of Winter will be announced.(This is my first go around waiting for a book so I believe it)

Or it could just be the trailer for season 5 but I am holding out hope.

You sweet summer child.

[JAG]

Best response:

@GRRMspeaking 5 years of waiting, 6, years of waiting, 7 years of waiting, 8 years of waiting, 9 years of waiting, 10 years of waiting, 11 y

[flere-imsaho]

It'll be another chapter segment. Or an updated list of Point of Views.

[ISiddiqui]

I can easily, though, see Winds of Winter date being announced after this. Having a 12 Days of Christmas with just a chapter at the end would be silly even for George. He likes his pomp and circumstance, but not for minor stuff. I mean he releases chapters at random.

[DaddyTorgo]

I can see a rough date, not an actual date. Like "Winter 2015."

Then again I won't believe he'll release an actual date until you know...he actually does.

FWIW though

@carpetman21 Just some holiday fun. Don't expect any big announcements.

— Elio & Linda (@westerosorg) December 11, 2014

[Fidatelo]

I think "Don't expect any big announcements" should just be SOP with GRRM at this point. I don't plan to ever see Winds of Winter in stores, at least not until its been completed by another writer. For that matter I've not bothered to read Dance yet. I've almost completely lost interest in this series, even in spite of the TV show giving it life.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I don't plan to ever see Winds of Winter in stores, at least not until its been completed by another writer.

Yes. And now, from early 2013:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Or, and this is my favorite speculation, I could definitely see him not finishing the books, and instead let the show finish the story (books would come, as novelizations, not necessarily written by him). He (and bored writers everywhere) will pass this off as a "brave new cross-media paradigm" but it'll really be a giant coverup for Martin's writers' block and inability to focus.

I continue to go with this prediction.

I'm sure some sort of Winds of Winter book will be published from the stuff he currently has written, but then the show will blow past him and the rest will be novelizations.

Further, I suspect that the novelizations, while written by others, will be unduly delayed because of the difficulty of getting Martin to focus on his review of them before publishing.

Yes, I'm bitter.

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

For that matter I've not bothered to read Dance yet. I've almost completely lost interest in this series, even in spite of the TV show giving it life.

I will surely read the rest of the books. And I will be hate-reading them. Which is too bad. I like the story, I liked reading the books, and I have no problem, per se with the fact that it's taken him so long to write them. But the way Martin has continually dicked around and made and blown through numerous self-set milestones is simply too much.

[Coffee Warlord]

The pizzas are coming guys, and they're gonna be totally awesome.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I will surely read the rest of the books. And I will be hate-reading them. Which is too bad. I like the story, I liked reading the books, and I have no problem, per se with the fact that it's taken him so long to write them. But the way Martin has continually dicked around and made and blown through numerous self-set milestones is simply too much.

I don't think I have quite the axe to grind with Martin as you appear to. I don't really care if he can't finish the series, that's his business. I've started lots of things and not finished them, too.

Instead the huge breaks between books have just made me lose interest in the series. I picked up Dance almost a year ago, but when I went to read it I realized I couldn't remember what was going on. So I went to the web to get a refresher and realized that even the synopsis of Feast wasn't good enough, it was almost like I had never read that book. So I decided that I needed to re-read Feast, except that has turned out to feel like a huge chore and I'm only about 250 pages in, and I keep going big periods between reading it and then forgetting again what is going on.

Then I watch the TV show, and in some ways it deviates from the books, but now that's blurring into what I remember from the books and it's all just becoming a mess. I've actually lost interest in the show as well. The whole thing is just a debacle and frankly I'd rather spend my time reading other books or playing video games or watching other shows than spend another hour of my life struggling to figure out what is going on in a story I've been slowly trying to follow for the past 20 years.

[DaddyTorgo]

I had the same experience as you with Feast/Dance re-reading.

In fact I'm still trying to get back through Feast.

[JAG]

The long waits between 3 and 4 as well as 4 and 5 annoyed me at the time, but now I look back on it being funny in a "Maximum Football is coming out next week" way. I'd sure love to see the series finish, but he's an old guy wanting to get the most out of his remaining years and getting an opportunity to experience perks he never has before. Good for him. I have enjoyed this series more than any other I've read, when the next one is done, I'll buy it day 1. In the meanwhile, there's so much other stuff going on in life that I only think about it when the thread is bumped, so please post here when the release date is set, thanks.

[flere-imsaho]

Again, just to be clear, I don't mind that Martin takes a long time between books. I don't begrudge him taking time to enjoy life and especially enjoy the new opportunities success has brought to him.

The only thing with which I take issue is his habit of first a) making promises and breaking them and then b) making fun of the people who got upset about (a).

I suspect it's that, combined with what Fidatelo's experience has been, have lessened my excitement about potential new books, to the point where, as I said, I think I'll be hate-reading them (i.e. reading even though I'm jaded about the content now).

[Zinto]

George RR Martin on Twitter: "#12DaysofWesteros is NOT a countdown to the release of WoW, we're sorry for those of you who were misled, just spreading Christmas Cheer "

And lame.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Zinto

George RR Martin on Twitter: "#12DaysofWesteros is NOT a countdown to the release of WoW, we're sorry for those of you who were misled, just spreading Christmas Cheer "

And lame.

And now he'll get offended about being ripped apart on twitter.

[Zinto]

George RR Martin on Twitter: "Rumors and Fabrications http://t.co/TZKIrMMvOF"

I figured I would post his response to the whole thing. It is unfortunate that the book probably isn't coming out anytime soon but at least they shut this down before it got too out of hand.

[stevew]

I guess it's not the show thread, but I got a friend to start watching. Her words were, "Sean Bean is in this? I love him, I'm so excited"

Had to bite off my tongue.

[sabotai]

If she loves Sean Bean, she knows what's coming.

[NobodyHere]

Doesn't Sean Bean die in every movie he's in?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Doesn't Sean Bean die in every movie he's in?

There's a few where he doesn't. Just a few.

[Lathum]

Jon Snow. Are you fucking kidding me. Jon Fuckig Snow. Arg.

Almost done with book five. Then I wait with everyone else.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Jon Snow. Are you fucking kidding me. Jon Fuckig Snow. Arg.

Almost done with book five. Then I wait with everyone else.

The first 600 or so pages were a bit slow/frustrating after such a long wait between books, but once the timelines matched up those last couple hundred pages were intense!

[molson]

I finished reading Storm of Swords last night. Part of the fun of finishing each book is how much more and more of the whole online commentary and culture surrounding this series you can take in the further you get. I spent a couple of hours afterwards reading random posts on reddit (where you can filter spoilers by how far you are in the series). And then I read the posts made in this thread up until A Feast for Crows was published in 2005 - which wasn't that much. (I'm pretty curious what you all have talked about for the next 35 pages....I know I did nose it at some point years ago and there was a lot of angst about the slow release of the novels).

So, two decisions to make now - One, do I dive into the TV series, and two, do I read the first two novellas before a Feast for Crows? I guess the novella thing doesn't really matter since its a separate story, but after getting through the first 3 books pretty quickly, a side break on something shorter, with pretty pictures if I go the graphic novel route, sounds nice.

I've also read about some people doing a chronological order read of the last two books, alternating between them chapter by chapter (I know there's some chart somebody put together for this purpose), but, Martin made that decision for a reason, so I'm inclined to not do that .

The TV thing - I think I asked this in the GOT TV show thread and someone suggested I get through the first three books first and then start the show. I've been pretty anxious to start the show, but now that I'm here, I kind of want to just plow through the last two books.

[cschex]

I would recommend reading the Dunk and Egg novellas (there are 3 thus far, though only two in GN form) before Dance, just because there are some minor references and a pretty major one that tie back to them. As with most things Martin, however, the sooner you read them the more references you'll get in subsequent books. I believe the first ones crop up in Storm

[sabotai]

A few of the plot lines in the last season of the TV show went up to book 5, so maybe hold off on it if you want to read what happens in the book prior to seeing it in the show. Well, seasons 1 and 2, you'll definitely be okay, season 3...I forget where they left some of the characters off but you'll probably be okay. Season 4 is where they include some book 4 and 5 stuff for at least one of the main characters.

[ISiddiqui]

I'd say go ahead and read "A Feast for Crows". I don't think it is as bad as people want to claim it is - I think that that view was due to expectations for it to be edge-of-your-seat as "Storm of Swords". So go into it expecting Book 1 like exposition - for it and the first 2/3rds of "Dance with Dragons". As stated by BishopMVP, the last 3rd of Dance is intense - almost SoS level of plot movement.

Watch the show whenever, IMO. It can even augment your reading if you'd like.

The novellas and short stories (actually there are now 5 novellas - 3 Dunk & Egg stories and 2 earlier - the original Dance of the Dragons) are great to add more flavor to the world - read them after the book Dance.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by molson

I've also read about some people doing a chronological order read of the last two books, alternating between them chapter by chapter (I know there's some chart somebody put together for this purpose), but, Martin made that decision for a reason, so I'm inclined to not do that .

I haven;'t seen that and it might turn out okay, but it reminds me how the scenes in The Godfather parts 1 and 2 were reordered to show the whole thing in chronological order. It threw off the pacing completely.

[Coffee Warlord]

George RR Martin’s The Winds of Winter: no plans for publication in 2015 | Books | The Guardian

I'm shocked, I tell you.

This does pretty much guarantee the tv show will conclude before the books.