FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by nol

These claims are hard to take even a little seriously if the people most vociferously making them are always conveniently placing the hypothetical chopping block just below their own intelligence or "usefulness to society."

I mean, you could get rid of 99.99% of humans and still have a viable population, so it's the definition of "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" for you to say that we should start and end it at whichever poor minority group you think we should genocide. At least have some nobility to your eugenics.

You could get it down to around 4 or so and one would still kill another. Sin nature is like that.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

shrug...

I think there is some validity to what he is saying. The delivery leaves something to be desired, but no one should be surprised about that.

You have to have a license to drive a car, own a gun, get married, etc...yet you can procreate as many times as you like, and be a total drain on the system. Not to mention there are plenty of middle and upper class people who are shit parents also, so I am not suggesting it should be a class or race issue.

That being said, I realize it is unrealistic, but I hate that you can have children and not be held accountable for having to actually being a parent.

You have no idea how much I would love to see the (insert your state here)'s Parents Handbook and the test that one would have to pass to obtain the Parent's license.

[Dutch]

A parenting license. I like it.

[BillJasper]

What do you do with the kids of all the parents that fail?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

What do you do with the kids of all the parents that fail?

The point is to not let those parents procreate in the first place.

We already have plenty of kids whose parents fail.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The point is to not let those parents procreate in the first place.

We already have plenty of kids whose parents fail.

How exactly are you going to stop people? Seriously. Fine poor people for having kids? Won't matter to them as they don't have the money to pay. Put the parents in jail? So, the state is taking care of Mom, possibly Dad and the kid on a full-time basis. Is the State going to forcibly sterilize people who don't pass the test.

Some scary shit to give the government that much power over an individual's life.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The point is to not let those parents procreate in the first place. We already have plenty of kids whose parents fail.

Ding ding ding.

That's a winner.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by nol

I mean, you could get rid of 99.99% of humans and still have a viable population

Gotta retain enough for a viable economy so I'm not entirely sure where the cut line is.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Is the State going to forcibly sterilize people who don't pass the test.

That's exactly what I've proposed for years.

Some scary shit to give the government that much power over an individual's life.

If the government is paying for it, they certainly have stepped in to control it in the past. If anything, it's almost a government tradition.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If the government is paying for it, they certainly have stepped in to control it in the past. If anything, it's almost a government tradition.

No thanks.

[cuervo72]

While I would prefer people to be more judicious about having kids, this idea isn't the way to do it (teaching the responsible use of birth control, now you might be onto something). If you thought tests for voting would be problematic*...

It is a good point about the overpopulation folks though. They want fewer people...and they also blame those living in industrialized nations (read: the US) for any problem brought about by consumption (energy, food, water). So their solution is what, the US stop breeding, and in favor of underdeveloped countries? Yeah, no.


* I mean, not all do. But the same arguments apply here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I think something like that would backfire and have the poor voting in unprecedented numbers.

I've long held that voting privileges should be suspended for anyone on welfare.
And have often felt a return to landowners-only as a criteria should be strongly considered.

It's akin to letting the inmates run the asylum & that's never a great idea.

[miked]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Gotta retain enough for a viable economy so I'm not entirely sure where the cut line is.

I think you'd be a bit upset when most of these dumb hillbillies (the ones in the country who think most like you) are the ones getting sterilized.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

How exactly are you going to stop people? Seriously. Fine poor people for having kids? Won't matter to them as they don't have the money to pay. Put the parents in jail? So, the state is taking care of Mom, possibly Dad and the kid on a full-time basis. Is the State going to forcibly sterilize people who don't pass the test.

Some scary shit to give the government that much power over an individual's life.

Originally Posted by Lathum

shrug...

I think there is some validity to what he is saying. The delivery leaves something to be desired, but no one should be surprised about that.

You have to have a license to drive a car, own a gun, get married, etc...yet you can procreate as many times as you like, and be a total drain on the system. Not to mention there are plenty of middle and upper class people who are shit parents also, so I am not suggesting it should be a class or race issue.

That being said, I realize it is unrealistic, but I hate that you can have children and not be held accountable for having to actually being a parent.

reading comprehension FTW

[larrymcg421]

What the fuck has this thread turned into? Forced sterilization? Preventing people from procreating? This is actually a serious discussion?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What the fuck has this thread turned into? Forced sterilization? Preventing people from procreating? This is actually a serious discussion?

The turn was (somewhere) about overpopulation ... which ties directly into previous conversations in (an)other thread, about how unemployment isn't a shortage of jobs, it's an excess of people.

I believe the tangent here also involved robots at some point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

It also isn't exactly a novel idea (forced birth control) ...

Note the date on this quickly Googled link? 1993. That's a (D) governor discussing it btw.
(the headline isn't all the content)

Governor's Welfare Plan Pushes Free Birth Control - New York Times

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The turn was (somewhere) about overpopulation ... which ties directly into previous conversations in (an)other thread, about how unemployment isn't a shortage of jobs, it's an excess of people.

I believe the tangent here also involved robots at some point.

And Whole Foods, don't forget about Whole Foods.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Lathum

And Whole Foods, don't forget about Whole Foods.

And Walmart.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What the fuck has this thread turned into? Forced sterilization? Preventing people from procreating? This is actually a serious discussion?

It's Jon. He probably needs his own "loony bin" thread like MBBF has for game consoles.

[larrymcg421]

My post had less to do with random changing of topics (this thread has already jumped the shark in that regard) and more to do with disbelief that we're even discussing the current subject as if forced sterilization or anything to prevent people from procreating isn't a ridiculously totalitarian human rights violation.

I'm all for offering low cost/free birth control. That's just basic common sense as far as government programs go. But the idea that we would even entertain the idea of something mandatory being a reasonable idea (whether it's realistic or not) is just insanely crazy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

But the idea that we would even entertain the idea of something mandatory being a reasonable idea (whether it's realistic or not) is just insanely crazy.

Not nearly as utterly insane as the notion (which I think came up in this thread) of some sort of minimum wage for breathing ... but it didn't stop it from being mentioned.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by miked

Obviously this is a side tangent, but there is a Publix and Kroger within 1 mile (and another Kroger in downtown Decatur). Putting a Walmart there serves no purpose other than to reduce the property values immediately adjacent to the lot.

I'm thinking that a company like Walmart doesn't get as rich as it does by making useless stores.

In addition, have you been to a Walmart lately... they aren't primarily a grocery store.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The point is to not let those parents procreate in the first place.

This sounds like the beginning of a sci-fi dystopia novel, not an actual reasonable proposal (and no, it isn't a reasonable proposal at all).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

how unemployment isn't a shortage of jobs, it's an excess of people.

What a ridiculously Mathusian view of economics. If y'all are going to suggest forced sterilization for people who can't pass a parent test, I'm going to insist on refraining from talking about economics if you don't have an economics degree.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In addition, have you been to a Walmart lately... they aren't primarily a grocery store.

In the case of Athens, that was a primary purpose (the location was an unusual size, about twice that of a typical grocery-only, about half that of a standard supercenter). And they were the ONLY grocery provider willing to even discuss scaling to the development or even adapt their exterior to the "urban landscape" model required.

Nobody else -- the market here includes Kroger, Publix, Ingles, Fresh Market and Trader Joes -- was even willing to consider coming into that space ... which is why it's now (yay us) even more apartments.

[AENeuman]

FYI, getting rid of bad parents would also virtually get rid of strippers... and Florida state football.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This sounds like the beginning of a sci-fi dystopia novel, not an actual reasonable proposal (and no, it isn't a reasonable proposal at all).

I realize it isn't possible, and I never suggested forced sterilization. It just annoys me that people continue to have children they can't afford, or have children they can't or aren't willing to parent. This goes for the poorest of the poor as well as the Cromarties of the world.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

What a ridiculously Mathusian view of economics. If y'all are going to suggest forced sterilization for people who can't pass a parent test, I'm going to insist on refraining from talking about economics if you don't have an economics degree.

And if we're going to insist on refraining from talking about economics if you don't have an economics degree, I'm going to insist on refraining from talking about law enforcement unless you have experience working in law enforcement.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

And if we're going to insist on refraining from talking about economics if you don't have an economics degree, I'm going to insist on refraining from talking about law enforcement unless you have experience working in law enforcement.

Does binge watching The Wire and/or Law & Order count?

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Does binge watching The Wire and/or Law & Order count?

Add Southland and make it a 2/3. Or just a couple episodes of Cops.

[ISiddiqui]

Having a law degree should be an instant exemption from having to watch COPS .

[sabotai]

I had a pretty serious addiction to the show Cops when I was younger.

[molson]

I'll volunteer to be sterilized if that helps with anything.

[stevew]

Comic Sans

[stevew]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

FYI, getting rid of bad parents would also virtually get rid of strippers... and Florida state football.

We definitely need a bottomless supply of desperate hot single mums to keep that industry going.

[AENeuman]

I guess it's as good of place as any to post this:

Senate report: Harsh CIA tactics didn't work

[Buccaneer]

I thought this cnn editorial has good points. But I wonder, in the age of wanting give stars second+ chances and tearful, public apologies, at what point does being reformed kick in or does ever it not?

Trayvon Martin. Michael Brown. Eric Garner. The list of names of black men killed by white men who have subsequently gone unpunished -- and in the case of Brown and Garner, untried -- continues to grow. In each of these cases, an ugly theme has been raised in defense of the perpetrators: The victims should have known better.

Why did Garner resist arrest? Why was Martin wearing a hoodie? Why did Brown not meekly get out of the street when ordered to by a police officer? The reasoning goes that their deaths were triggered by their deeds; they need to be held posthumously accountable for their conduct.
When it comes to the actions of their white killers, however, the accountability hawks fall suddenly silent.

In their eyes, accountability is apparently only for the dark-skinned (for being "uppity" or vulgar), the poor (for failing to bootstrap themselves into success), the recently immigrated (for failing to "mainstream" into American society) -- and, as we've also seen, for women for failing to avoid sexual predators and LGBTs for being too blatant about their sexuality.

A flagrant new example of this "accountability for thee, but not for me" sensibility emerged last week, when New England Cable News reported that actor Mark Wahlberg -- one of Hollywood's most bankable leading men, who scored a staggering $16 million paycheck for his turn as a heroic father and inventor in the most recent "Transformers" movie -- has petitioned Massachusetts for pardon of his brutal assaults on a pair of Vietnamese men, Tranh Lam and Hoa Trinh, while a teenager in Dorchester, Massachusetts.

The attacks were peppered with racial slurs; he called Lam a "Vietnam f*cking sh*t" before smashing him in the head with a large club and knocking him unconscious, and he punched Trinh so hard that he left him blinded in one eye. He repeatedly referred to both men as "slant-eyed gooks" while he was being arrested. Wahlberg, who was 17, was tried as an adult and served 45 days in jail for the crime.

In the application he filed to the state's Advisory Board of Pardons, Wahlberg states that he has "dedicated myself to becoming a better person and citizen so that I can be a role model to my children and others" and that "receiving a pardon would be a formal recognition that I am not the same person that I was." He claims that, despite his use of racist language, the race of the men was not a motivation for his crime, blaming instead the "influence of alcohol and narcotics." (Wahlberg committed the assaults while seeking to steal two cases of beer from Lam's convenience store.)

In a stroke of irony, he states that a major reason for seeking a pardon is the desire to expand his own burgeoning restaurant chain, Wahlburgers, whose licensing has been hampered by his record as a felon.

So, young Mark Wahlberg, who would just half a decade later rise to fame as a rapper and a crotch-grabbing underwear model under the name "Marky Mark" before successfully transitioning to acting, was let off with a trivial 45-day sentence after battering an Asian man until he was permanently handicapped. Three gold records, $200 million in wealth and untold fame and adulation later, he's seeking absolution for his crimes, because, he writes, "troubled youths will see this as an inspiration and motivation that they, too, can turn their lives around."

The unwritten phrase that should follow Wahlberg's assertion: "That is to say, so long as they're white and their victims are not."

If a black, Hispanic or Asian youth under the influence of drugs and alcohol had put out a white man's eye while trying to rob his store, it's inconceivable that he would have been let off with such a light sentence; implausible that he'd have gone on to the kind of marquee stardom that Wahlberg has obtained; unlikely that he would have the sense of unvarnished privilege that is driving Wahlberg's desire for a whitewashing of his record, if you'll pardon the pun.

According to The Boston Globe, to this day Wahlberg has never apologized or paid restitution to the victims of his crimes. He also hasn't really acknowledged his pattern of bigoted language and racist violence, which included a separate episode in which he threw rocks at African-American schoolchildren while shouting that "black n*ggers" were unwelcome in his community.

And he has never reached out to the Vietnamese-American community or other communities of color with the kind of targeted charity and philanthropic presence befitting someone who was truly remorseful for the repulsive actions of his youth.

And that's the most gut-wrenching aspect of Wahlberg's request, coming as it does in the wake of the repeated, unpunished killings of young black men and teens at the hands of white men. The darkest reactions to the deaths of Martin, Brown and Garner described the victims as hardened, bestial and irredeemably corrupted by casual drug use or records of petty crime. They were, in the coded language of these commenters, "thugs."

Meanwhile, Wahlberg, a wealthy white man with a more extensive criminal record than any of the black men mentioned above, has been described across mainstream media as a "troubled" youth who's since made good.
In the wake of the grand jury's decision not to indict Officer Daniel Pantaleo for the choking death of Garner, the hashtag #CrimingWhileWhite trended on Twitter, featuring hundreds of white people sharing how their infractions were dismissed by police, while in many cases black friends were prosecuted for the same offenses. I noted at the time that the hashtag was "proof that there are two America: One that gets off with a wink. And one that just gets offed."

In that other America, white versions of Martin, Brown and Garner might well have gotten the chance to "make good" like Wahlberg; they might be the ones seeking to redeem their youthful indiscretions.

Sadly, no amount of pardoning will resurrect the dead.

[DaddyTorgo]

Wahlburg is a schmuck.

He's an embarrassment to this state.

I wouldn't eat at Wahlburger's if it was the last burger place on earth. Fuck him.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Wahlburg is a schmuck.

He's an embarrassment to this state.

I wouldn't eat at Wahlburger's if it was the last burger place on earth. Fuck him.

I'll put you down for "not reformed" and once a thug, always a thug.

[NobodyHere]

When was the last time Wahlberg committed a crime? If he's been clean for a long time then I say why not?

[nol]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

When was the last time Wahlberg committed a crime? If he's been clean for a long time then I say why not?

That's fine enough reasoning if you're not into the whole Hammurabi code thing, but does it extend to non-famous people whose past felonies have more of an effect on their ability to earn a living?

[Jukeman]

Not surprise that a thread based on minorities ended in a discussion of sterilization.

Esau being Esau.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by nol

That's fine enough reasoning if you're not into the whole Hammurabi code thing, but does it extend to non-famous people whose past felonies have more of an effect on their ability to earn a living?

Two points:

First, to answer your question, yes. If a person is a law abiding citizen for a long time then I wouldn't mind a pardon (or at least some kind of suspension).

Second-

Spoiler

[molson]

When you read the general criteria the MA executive branch is supposed to use is determining whether to exercise it's pardon power, Wahlberg seems like an ideal candidate in a lot of ways. But he's also not your typical rehabilitative success story. His "extraordinary contribution to society" really wasn't about "a means of restoring community and making amend for earlier misdeeds." He just got rich and discovered it's easier not to be a violent thug when you're a rich guy. If I'm the governor and pardon committee, I'd rather use that power for people who have say, gang-related convictions, and then turned around their lives and contributed to the community by helping others avoid going down that same path. Maybe that's too narrow. But I'm also not sure that the "compelling need" for a pardon required by the governor's pardon policy contemplates helping out a multi-millionaire establish a chain of restaurants.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

When you read the general criteria the MA executive branch is supposed to use is determining whether to exercise it's pardon power, Wahlberg seems like an ideal candidate in a lot of ways. But he's also not your typical rehabilitative success story. His "extraordinary contribution to society" really wasn't about "a means of restoring community and making amend for earlier misdeeds." He just got rich and discovered it's easier not to be a violent thug when you're a rich guy. If I'm the governor and pardon committee, I'd rather use that power for people who have say, gang-related convictions, and then turned around their lives and contributed to the community by helping others avoid going down that same path. Maybe that's too narrow. But I'm also not sure that the "compelling need" for a pardon required by the governor's pardon policy contemplates helping out a multi-millionaire establish a chain of restaurants.

Totally agree with everything you said here and that's why (at first glance at least) I'm against it.

[RainMaker]

Also I think it sets a better example for people that actions have consequences. He committed a vile act and there are consequences for that. Don't want to be labeled a felon for life? Don't commit a felony!

[CU Tiger]

Wait, lost in the Wahlberg article, George Zimmerman was WHITE?!?! Damn. Never knew.

I've never been a MW fan music/movies/stupid TV show my wife watches too much...just always seemed like the type of guy I would want to punch in the mouth. That said...if the new standard for our lives is the crimes of our youth, well I'm fucked.

[JPhillips]

I don't know enough of the facts in the Wahlberg case, but lots of felons need pardoned, especially non-violent ones. The restrictions on voting and the limitations on employment carry on for decades after the crime has been "paid for".

[RainMaker]

I think Zimmerman was given hinorary white status because it helped the narrative more than him being hispanic.