Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[molson]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Is www.scoopthis.com making a comeback!?!?!?!?!?!

I can't wait.

(that is, if you guys still remember the old www.scoopthis.com website. hehehe.)

Aw shit yo.

Is the old stuff still out there anywhere?

Wrestling stuff on the internet was a very exciting thing in the late 90s, it was as responsible for the boom as anything, and this just reminded me how fun it was to find stuff like this back then.

[JonInMiddleGA]

A 12-man tag X Division World Cup match to open Victory Road tonight.
Spotastic. Part lucha, part indy showcase, kind of like watching ROH meets ECWA meets DG meets CMLL meets NWA Hammerlock.

Fun though.

[DeToxRox]

Er .. uh .. hmm .. Russo?

[JonInMiddleGA]

F'n asinine booking in the title match.

And I'm not talking about whether they turn Joe heel or Booker face or anything in between.

What irritates the blind fuck out of me with this is that they defied wrestling logic, the "rules" if you will, by attempting to have the two replacement refs call Joe off without stopping the match first. If they're calling for a stoppage because Booker is unable to defend himself then why isn't the match stopped for that reason? At no time did anyone call for the bell or do anything. I've been watching for close to 40 years and best I can figure, the bell is sort of the universal standard for, you know, ENDING A FUCKING MATCH.

I know, I know, "suspension of disbelief" and all that. Which is fine with me ... except when you do something stupid that makes playing along damned near impossible.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

F'n asinine booking in the title match.

And I'm not talking about whether they turn Joe heel or Booker face or anything in between.

What irritates the blind fuck out of me with this is that they defied wrestling logic, the "rules" if you will, by attempting to have the two replacement refs call Joe off without stopping the match first. If they're calling for a stoppage because Booker is unable to defend himself then why isn't the match stopped for that reason? At no time did anyone call for the bell or do anything. I've been watching for close to 40 years and best I can figure, the bell is sort of the universal standard for, you know, ENDING A FUCKING MATCH.

I know, I know, "suspension of disbelief" and all that. Which is fine with me ... except when you do something stupid that makes playing along damned near impossible.

QFMFT

[molson]

It's amazing how much better a wrestling show can look with a hot crowd. I mean obviously, you need to give them something to be excited about, but a good crowd can can really bring up even a mediocre segment. This RAW crowd is all hopped up on something or other.

[DeToxRox]

Love this Raw so far. Punk looks good and will retain Sunday I believe with how this Batista/Kane angle is progressing. The kids are getting the ball and running with it. The Rhoads/Orton promo on Duggan was great, and Kingston keeps improving, so I've enjoyed the change of pace.

Also, my guess is Kane's got his mask in that bag, and will be remasking soon.

[duckman]

Just a hunch, but I think Austin is coming back to RAW as the GM/enforcer role again.

[RawIsDan]

Another week where I felt it was a good show. Well, except for the JBL/Cena car bit at the end. Santino loosing to Beth was pulled off well and his pepsi line to Kane about Punk was great.

[Noop]

Last night was good. Although I don't like John Cena, I think his gimmick is played out but the Jamaican wrestling put on a great match.

[Flasch186]

santino's pepsi line was best line since Piper's find a driver line. Funny Santino was involved in two of the best lines ive heard in months.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Lordy. Lance Hoyt is now Lance Rock? Why not just call him Lance Jobber?

And, even the lower card they can't get simple stuff right in the Land of Misfit Booking.
Knockouts battle royal for a title shot, final three are Gail & both of the Beautiful People. With a face champ the fairly obvious result is going to be a heel winner so why not have a little fun with it? Instead of having Gail eliminate one before losing to the other, why not have Gail just hop the top rope & eliminate herself, leaving the pair she hates to figure out who gets the title shot? It would have been fun for the crowd, they could probably have handled it well enough to make a few minutes of mildly entertaining TV out of it and could have still managed to avoid anything that would have required a longterm dissension storyline.

But noooooooo, the village idiots go the standard route.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Anyone watching the GAB? Was the Cena/JBL match as embarrassing as it reads?

It was wrestlecrap worthy, that is for sure. So far, not a bad PPV. Liked Punk/Batista, as Punk looked credible in the ring and a double DQ didn't hurt him. And frankly as long as Punk left with the belt I didn't care what happened.

Jericho/HBK had a good match with a great story. Definetly setting up to an epic at SummerSlam in my opinion. Can't wait for that

[JonInMiddleGA]

Forgot all about GAB. Saw the bloodbath recap on Jericho/HBK on Raw.

And just for the heck of it, the Phoenix/Santino storyline is basically the same one that's been going on in NWA-Anarchy for the past several months (not that it's entirely original in the first place) with ex-WWE developmental Melissa Coates and an old hand named Brody Ray Chase. Just kind of funny to see the same set up running in the big leagues.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And just for the heck of it, the Phoenix/Santino storyline is basically the same one that's been going on in NWA-Anarchy for the past several months (not that it's entirely original in the first place) with ex-WWE developmental Melissa Coates and an old hand named Brody Ray Chase. Just kind of funny to see the same set up running in the big leagues.

Wherever the hell it comes from, Santino will make it pure gold.

And without knowing anything about NWA-Anarchy, I certainly prefer that the WWE take storylines from indy promotions, rather than re-do stuff they did themselves in the last couple years. There's probably a wealth of great stuff going on out there in smaller promotions that I don't have access to, I'd love to see the WWE mine it for good ideas.

[RawIsDan]

I thought Santino's facial expressions were great. Funny segment as usual when he's involved. Good to see D'lo back.

[Flasch186]

Santino is the best thing WWE has going IMO. Jericho turning heel could be helpful but Stone Cold jackass being his protege is gonna hurt him. Once again the girls simply are bad wrestlers and while Mickie James seems to be the best in the bunch her horrible acting and huge belly is killing me! Seeing CM Punk get more comfortable with the mic is helping and I hope he continues to develop, Cena's 2 person finisher was pretty impressive considering his shoulder surgery just a little while ago. all in all though wrestling is certainly searching for something to, ahem, save them.

[Noop]

Hey man Kelly Kelly keep me entertained when we was wrestling last night. She is hot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Seeing CM Punk get more comfortable with the mic is helping and I hope he continues to develop

Just curious (since you brought it up) ... did you get the feeling that his whole bit was scripted? Don't get me wrong, I know there's a ton of scripted stuff over there, it just struck me last night how scripted that bit felt. His last line with JBL was a good one IMO and I thought he hit the mark with it well enough, but somehow I had this feeling he was trying to recite his lines more than I usually get with WWE guys.

And a question for you or anybody who is more familiar with Punk's pre-WWE work, how were his mic skills during that time & how much was likely scripted vs outlined with him freestyling the actual lines?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just curious (since you brought it up) ... did you get the feeling that his whole bit was scripted? Don't get me wrong, I know there's a ton of scripted stuff over there, it just struck me last night how scripted that bit felt. His last line with JBL was a good one IMO and I thought he hit the mark with it well enough, but somehow I had this feeling he was trying to recite his lines more than I usually get with WWE guys.

And a question for you or anybody who is more familiar with Punk's pre-WWE work, how were his mic skills during that time & how much was likely scripted vs outlined with him freestyling the actual lines?

Punk was the best guy on the mic in the indy's. Period. His stuff vs Raven was absolutely out of this world. The Summer of Punk era of ROH was the best fucking thing ever. When he said he signed with WWE, then won the title, and signed his contract on the ROH Title was just phenominal. Problem is he a natural heel, forced to be a face.

Here is a great CM Punk IWA-MS promo against the ICP Juggalos.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uQ3c884VjXc

[Maple Leafs]

Any other good Punk clips on youtube (mic or ring)? I know he's an indy legend, but so far I'm just not seeing it in WWE. Everything he does looks so forced and scripted.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Any other good Punk clips on youtube (mic or ring)? I know he's an indy legend, but so far I'm just not seeing it in WWE. Everything he does looks so forced and scripted.

And the Punk die-hards would tell you that's the WWE's fault. I think it's a little of both. It's a very different thing to play a character in an indy v. WWE environment, and sometimes talent just doesn't translate across that.

And the WWE uses more scripts (I think almost everything is scripted down to the word). Performing from a script is a difficult skill, and you never know what indy guy who is used to having free reign is going to handle that well. And you never really know which guys are REALLY good at it, because everyone assumes that the people who come across smoothly aren't working from a script (I've heard people allege that Cena isn't required to work from the script - I'd guess that he's just really good at delivering scripted lines)

Most people think the WWE should use less scripts, and maybe that's true, but I understand why they do it that way. There's a different need for control when you're writing for something that's going to be mass-produced - deviations can really screw you up more than they would in a 500-seat venue with no TV.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Mickie James seems to be the best in the bunch her horrible acting and huge belly is killing me!

Dude. You have mental issues. Huge belly?

[Flasch186]

well maybe its the way she seems to push it out...HOWEVER a quick search brought up some nudes and I now have the ultimate respect for her and retract everything...Girl deserves a golden globe or something.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

well maybe its the way she seems to push it out...HOWEVER a quick search brought up some nudes and I now have the ultimate respect for her and retract everything...Girl deserves a golden globe or something.

PM K THANKS

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

And the WWE uses more scripts (I think almost everything is scripted down to the word). Performing from a script is a difficult skill, and you never know what indy guy who is used to having free reign is going to handle that well. And you never really know which guys are REALLY good at it, because everyone assumes that the people who come across smoothly aren't working from a script (I've heard people allege that Cena isn't required to work from the script - I'd guess that he's just really good at delivering scripted lines)

Right around (at?) his retirement I recall Flair commenting on how much he was scripted & that's when I realized that it was done even more than I thought (and I already thought it was pretty high).

And it's certainly not just the WWE, although I know you know that, just saying. The difference when, for example, Samoa Joe is working from a script versus an outline is pretty obvious to me I think. He's horrible on a script that goes beyond a couple of specific lines but not bad when he's allowed to work his way through an outline.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

PM K THANKS

Just google images and it was pretty much right at the top

[DeToxRox]

Here is some FIP CM Punk fun vs Homicide inside a strip club:

YouTube - CM Punk vs. Homicide FIP Fall Count Anywhere

Here is Punk pwning some dumb bitch (literally)

YouTube - CM Punk and the invisible microphone

Good Punk tribute:

YouTube - cm punk tribue

[DeToxRox]

Punk has done some of my favorite stuff in wrestling, such as tieing up Raven to the ropes when he was known to be in AA and dousting him with beer, only to see Tommy Dreamer make the save and along with Raven destroy Punk and tie him up to the ropes and force him to drink beer. That entire feud was brutal. Then add in Punk winning the title while under a WWE contract and having a summer long reign of terror, as well as a brutal feud with Jimmy Rave and you have some amazing moments.

What you need to know about Punk in IWA-MS, ROH, etc, is that he was always told he was too "WWE" for the indy's, yet he could go with anyone, but he worked such a heel style that he slowed matches down and didn't try killing himself (to his credit). When needed though he's been in barbed wire, through tables, had chairs dented over his skull, etc.

He is not a face though. When he finally is a heel in the E, you'll see how amazing he can be

[DeToxRox]

Er um .. from SD! spoilers ..

*The Great Khali (with the returning Ranjin Singh)won a Battle Royal to earn a Summerslam title shot. Also in the match were Ken Kennedy, Umaga and Big Show. The Order of elimination is MVP, Umaga, Kennedy, Show, and Hardy. Triple H comes out and has a staredown with Khali, but Singh tells Khali to leave the ring and he does.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Er um .. from SD! spoilers ..

*The Great Khali (with the returning Ranjin Singh)won a Battle Royal to earn a Summerslam title shot. Also in the match were Ken Kennedy, Umaga and Big Show. The Order of elimination is MVP, Umaga, Kennedy, Show, and Hardy. Triple H comes out and has a staredown with Khali, but Singh tells Khali to leave the ring and he does.

refresh my memory, is singh the guy that used to come out with Dhavari and yell about mistreatment of arabs, even though he was from detroit

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by saldana

refresh my memory, is singh the guy that used to come out with Dhavari and yell about mistreatment of arabs, even though he was from detroit

Nope, that was Muhammad Hassan. His entire gimmick was based on being an Arab-American and how the US of A continues to treat arab-americans as 2nd-class citizens / racism against arab americans.

Ranjin Singh is Great Khali's translator.

[DeToxRox]

LMAO!

And the new GM of Raw is ... MISTERR MIKE ADAMLE!

[Noop]

I was hoping for it to be Michael Cole kinda like Keisar Soze.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Now I really think that Jarrett/Mantel/Russo/et al are booking Raw.

[DeToxRox]

Adamle as GM can continue the anarchy storyline as no one will respect him and do as they wish. It will be awesome. He is like Michael from the Office.

[Maple Leafs]

I'm guessing the dead silence/smattered boos that met the announcement aren't a good sign for this angle.

[molson]

I like the idea of a "suit" GM that nobody respects, it's a little against the grain. They shouldn't have spent all show hyping that "mystery" though.

[RawIsDan]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I'm guessing the dead silence/smattered boos that met the announcement aren't a good sign for this angle.

Not surprising. I'd guess most don't know who he is and were expecting a bigger name to come out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

It could be awesome if the role were being played by someone who could act or otherwise had any charisma (even anti-charisma) on screen.

Fixed that for you

Instead, Adamle is pretty much being booed not for his character but for himself.
It's not "we hate you (in character)" heat, it's "get off my TV" heat, and that isn't often a good situation.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Instead, Adamle is pretty much being booed not for his character but for himself.
It's not "we hate you (in character)" heat, it's "get off my TV" heat, and that isn't often a good situation.

This disctinction is often made, but I'm not sure "we hate you (in character) heat" exists any more. When was the last time you boo'd a wrestler because of his dastardly deeds?

Making a heel is extremely difficult these days. They have to be disliked by the fans outside of the character, otherwise the fans will just cheer them if they're doing their job well. WCW had no clue how to make a heel. WWF is getting better at it - Edge, Orton, even Khali, ect. all give off a real-life "prick" vibe that allows fans to actually dislike the the people behind the character. (and even smarky fans on internet message boards actually believe that Orton is the asshole who he portrays) That's who they're booing, not the fact that they're big cheaters.

[saldana]

all i know is, if i had actually fought to stay awake last night for the mike adamle annoucement, i would have driven to CT today to punch someone.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by molson

This disctinction is often made, but I'm not sure "we hate you (in character) heat" exists any more. When was the last time you boo'd a wrestler because of his dastardly deeds?

Making a heel is extremely difficult these days. They have to be disliked by the fans outside of the character, otherwise the fans will just cheer them if they're doing their job well. WCW had no clue how to make a heel. WWF is getting better at it - Edge, Orton, even Khali, ect. all give off a real-life "prick" vibe that allows fans to actually dislike the the people behind the character. (and even smarky fans on internet message boards actually believe that Orton is the asshole who he portrays) That's who they're booing, not the fact that they're big cheaters.

I disagree, Edge is a perfect example of a heel getting heel heat, because besides the Matt Hardy thing, nobody even knows much of anything about his real personality (which could be said about alot of wrestlers). He's just a ton of fun to watch, and hits a home run with mostly everything he's given. Orton isn't disliked because he gives off a real life prick vibe, he's just effin boring and plodding when he gets the mic. Real heels are fewer and further between, but it's because of the way they are booked and the talent they have.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

I disagree, Edge is a perfect example of a heel getting heel heat, because besides the Matt Hardy thing, nobody even knows much of anything about his real personality (which could be said about alot of wrestlers). He's just a ton of fun to watch, and hits a home run with mostly everything he's given. Orton isn't disliked because he gives off a real life prick vibe, he's just effin boring and plodding when he gets the mic. Real heels are fewer and further between, but it's because of the way they are booked and the talent they have.

Edge is getting the closest thing to real heel heat I've seen in years, he's tremendous. But the WWE LOVED the fact that the Hardy/Lita stuff went public because it gave fans a real-life reason to dislike him - though I think I could concede that he really doesn't need it anymore. (But note that the WWE has partnered him with one of the most legitimately disliked people in the entire company - Vicki Guerrero)

I would disagree on Orton, he's wrestled plenty of great matches, and many wrestling fans believe the character is his real-life personality. Maybe it's worked, maybe it hasn't, my point is just that the WWE is very calculated and deliberate in trying to create heels - there's no easy answer on how to do it. People can point to something that's worked well in ROH or whatever but this is a different stage and a much more diverse fanbase.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

This disctinction is often made, but I'm not sure "we hate you (in character) heat" exists any more. When was the last time you boo'd a wrestler because of his dastardly deeds?

Edge comes to mind pretty quickly. I think his heel response right now (or sometimes facey pop to his heel character) is character based moreso than real-life based.

Jericho in the current HBK feud is another one (although he's heel as much by default there as anything). Santino is another albeit a much enjoyed heel character, Regal could get character heel heat too. Lesser degree example would be Cody Rhodes (although I'm not sure how much heat he gets period), as whatever crowd reaction there is comes from his alignment not him personally. Chavo too I guess.

Outside of the WWE, Ray & Devon right now are getting it from the crowd (after getting X-Pac heat for a while), AMW got it during the feud with Styles/Daniels. And LAX definitely got it from me for a while too (although I enjoy the hell out of Homicide in the ring when he brings his work boots).

Granted, I'm not a great example. I don't always react like a complete smark to characters, some heels I will jeer their character even though I really enjoy the person's work, others I'll cheer in spite of their heelishness because I'm really trying to give go away heat to their Facey McFace opponent.

I guess that comes from having at least a little smarkish understanding of how guys playing heels sometimes need to draw heel heat to be effective no matter how much some of us want to cheer them for their talent while others can get away with being a smark favorite as long as the majority of the marks are booing approporiately. Heck, I've known several indy guys over the years to ask smarks privately not to cheer them since it was killing their character. So there are times when I'll respect that even though I'm privately cheering their effort/performance.

Another thing I kind of watch on this score is my son, who has a real hybrid reaction to different guys. Certain workers (AJ & Cage come to mind) will get face pops from him regardless of their alignment. Others he's got X-Pac heat for no matter their alignment (pretty much anybody with a dead zero workrate, or as he calls them "punch-kick-punch" guys). But if a heel gets a heelish response from him, that's generally legit heel heat.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by molson

Edge is getting the closest thing to real heel heat I've seen in years, he's tremendous. But the WWE LOVED the fact that the Hardy/Lita stuff went public because it gave fans a real-life reason to dislike him - though I think I could concede that he really doesn't need it anymore. (But note that the WWE has partnered him with one of the most legitimately disliked people in the entire company - Vicki Guerrero)

I would disagree on Orton, he's wrestled plenty of great matches, and many wrestling fans believe the character is his real-life personality. Maybe it's worked, maybe it hasn't, my point is just that the WWE is very calculated and deliberate in trying to create heels - there's no easy answer on how to do it. People can point to something that's worked well in ROH or whatever but this is a different stage and a much more diverse fanbase.

WWE has too much top talent that is ambiguous, John Cena is... well, John Cena... Triple H is the 'Game' which just means he's a guy who runs around saying he's the best (much like Cena). Randy Orton isn't the Legend Killer anymore (which was what built his momentum) he's just Randy Orton, a guy who thinks he should have the title (the Game lite). They're essentially all the same except Orton gets to play the whipping boy. And he doesn't get to play it like Edge, who plays an old school heel that does anything he can to stay at the top cheating every chance he gets.

Orton is a great wrestler, but he'll never be a great heel until he's given something that is actually interesting. He's portrayed as a cutting-edge ( no pun intended) heel who is an elite wrestler but nobody could tell me how many wins he's gotten over Triple H, Cena, Undertaker ect. because nobody cares. Much like what they think of Orton. He's suppose to be hated because he's a prick, but the only thing I can remember him doing in the last year is kicking Cena's dad in the head. That's it.

And as far as other heels, by the time they reach the top they've been squashed in every way possible, including silly stuff like 5 of them vs 1 top guy matches.

[Maple Leafs]

I don't think it's really that hard to get heel heat these days, and all the guys listed above are good examples of how it can be done.

The key is that you have to be willing to play a real heel, and not a "cool" heel in the mode that Nash, Hall and HHH have perfected. For a while, every heel seemed to be in business for themselves. Now with guys like Edge and Orton, we're seeing it being done the right way again.

[RawIsDan]

For those Santino fans who haven't checked his video's out. I'd advised you give them a view. The guy is a riot.

WWE: Superstars > Raw > Santino Marella > Videos > Santino's Casa

[JonInMiddleGA]

Note to WWE creative ... don't let Matt Hardy talk.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, lots of little tidbit info out there in the past few days it seems.

-- The strangest one might be the announcement of the latest addition to the WWE creative team: Freddie Prinze, Jr.

-- Both Tomko & Dustin Rhodes are gone from TNA, Rhodes reportedly because they had nothing for him to do and Tomko allegedly in part because of some attitude issues.

-- Kevin Nash reportedly walked out of last night's Impact taping because he didn't like the finish but has apparently returned today with cooler heads prevailing.

-- A trailer/promo for the proposed Kurt Angle reality show is floating around the web and includes him talking about the WWE and admitting to an extramarital affair.