Virginia Tech Campus Shut Down - Shooting Incident

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by bronconick

I'd prefer you just find that person and take them into protective custody rather then detaining a few thousand other people for an indeterminate amount of time.

Well of course you find him, too. But in the scenario I described, I think it's logical that he is very likely headed to the mall to find her. If I was in the mall at that time, I would have no problem being detained over those circumstances.

I'm not saying people should be detained for a 24 hour period, but at least for a short time and then afterwards with heavy security patrols inside and outside the mall.

[King of New York]

I sympathize with the Virginia Tech president--most people in that position would have probably made the same decision. I can even understand the decision not to lockdown the campus after the initial shooting, although in hindsight I think it has to be acknowledged as a mistake--it assumed a rational killer who would want to get away, but assuming the rationality of killers is not always the right thing to do. I couldn't agree more that the questioning by reporters was somewhat disgusting at times.

BUT...

There is a middle ground between locking down the campus after the initial incident, on the one hand, and going on with "business as usual." VT elected to hold regular classes and let thousands of students and staff onto a campus where a shooting had just taken place, thereby needlessly putting them in harm's way. If there was a shooting in a mall and two hours later, I showed up and was turned away because no one knew where the shooter was, would I feel like authorities were overreacting? I don't think I would.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Locking down 4 square miles is easier said than done.

The difficulty of the task doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. If they had tried to do something (more than an e-mail) I think there would be much less criticism. That being said, I am witholding my own criticism until I know the full details regarding the facts and the timeline.

[Easy Mac]

well, they said they thought he likely left, so aside from not letting anyone out for the next week and hiding the girl away, I'm not sure what they could have done.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

well, they said they thought he likely left, so aside from not letting anyone out for the next week and hiding the girl away, I'm not sure what they could have done.

As I posted above, I'm waiting to see when or if they knew he was looking for his girlfriend. If they knew this, I think it would be idiotic to assume he would not try and return.

And how did they know he fled the campus. Did someone follow him to the exit? The argument against a lockdown is that it's such a big area, so it seems like plenty of places he could flee to without even leaving the campus.

[RPI-Fan]

Very sorry and upsetting to read and hear what happened.

For what it's worth, a couple weeks ago here, a badly traumatized body was found in the stairwell of an academic building at around 10am. Some people in the building told the campus police they heard something like gunshots. By about 12:30pm, the police had locked down the campus (and in particular the building where the body was found). SWAT teams stormed the building and classrooms and locked those people down at gunpoint for a couple of hours.

Around 3pm in the afternoon, they determined the death was a suicide (the guy had jumped from the 9th floor of an internal stairwell). The next couple of days, a lot of people (myself included) were extremely mad at the way the event was handled.

This puts things in perspective a little bit. While there was griping about the handling of the event at my school, it was nothing more than that, and certainly nothing like the complaints people will have about VT's handling.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Wasn't there one of the reports earlier that mentioned that the dorms could be locked down electronically but that no such system existed for the classroom buildings? If that's the case, although I'm generally a proponent of lockdowns in situations like this, I'm not really sure there's any way they could have managed one. I'd be surprised if there were enough campus security available to put someone on every door of every building.

Meanwhile, the circumstances of trying to notify everyone who was inbound to somewhere on the campus at that time of day (the figure I've seen is 11,000 people) also presents some logistical nightmares, to the degree that it might be a logistical impossibility. At that point, I can see an argument being made that it was more reasonable to believe they would be safer in classrooms than milling around on campus with nowhere to go.

The one big problem I see for the university is the email that warned people to stay away from windows & such. The timing of that warning & the whole timeline is going to be critical. If that warning came before the shootings in the classroom building (I can't seem to tell) then I would have to think the liability for the school is going to be enormous & the taxpayers of Virginia are going to be paying claims for a very very long time to come.

[Peregrine]

Jesus, I was asleep all day. This is horrible, what a terrible day for everyone at VT to go through.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

well, they said they thought he likely left, so aside from not letting anyone out for the next week and hiding the girl away, I'm not sure what they could have done.

They could have cancelled classes for a day and kept people off campus who didn't absolutely need to be on campus, thereby giving themselves more time to determine the actual nature of the situation, while depriving the shooter of easy targets (classrooms packed full of students.)

I say this in sorrow rather than in anger--if I were the president of VT, I would have made the same mistake, I think. But one of the lessons of 9/11 was: if you see a plane hit the tower next to you, you really should evacuate your own tower, even if nothing has happened to you yet. Once things start going bad, they can quickly go very bad in ways we never before imagined, so steering people away from the scene of trouble is the smart thing to do.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Meanwhile, the circumstances of trying to notify everyone who was inbound to somewhere on the campus at that time of day (the figure I've seen is 11,000 people) also presents some logistical nightmares, to the degree that it might be a logistical impossibility. At that point, I can see an argument being made that it was more reasonable to believe they would be safer in classrooms than milling around on campus with nowhere to go.

Point taken--but how many entrances are there to Virginia Tech? I'm sure there are several, but presumably some are much more used than others--I would expect that Blacksburg and VT would have enough police to put someone at each entrance, or at least each main entrance, by 8 or 8:30, turning everyone around so those folks do not get onto campus.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by King of New York

They could have cancelled classes for a day and kept people off campus who didn't absolutely need to be on campus, thereby giving themselves more time to determine the actual nature of the situation, while depriving the shooter of easy targets (classrooms packed full of students.)

I say this in sorrow rather than in anger--if I were the president of VT, I would have made the same mistake, I think. But one of the lessons of 9/11 was: if you see a plane hit the tower next to you, you really should evacuate your own tower, even if nothing has happened to you yet. Once things start going bad, they can quickly go very bad in ways we never before imagined, so steering people away from the scene of trouble is the smart thing to do.

Like I've said in a post above, an eerily similar incident (at least in the way it started) happened at my school a couple weeks ago, and it took about 3 hours to get a grip on things and lock down the campus. (2 hours to lock down the building of interest)

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to a completely illogical situation.

QFT.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Point taken--but how many entrances are there to Virginia Tech? I'm sure there are several, but presumably some are much more used than others--I would expect that Blacksburg and VT would have enough police to put someone at each entrance, or at least each main entrance, by 8 or 8:30, turning everyone around so those folks do not get onto campus.

I've never been on campus (or even to Blacksburg) but from the looks of this map, I'm not at all certain it would have been that easy.
http://198.82.160.236/where_we_are/m...t_main_map.pdf

And given that the 911 call for the first shooting didn't come in until 7:15am,
I can't see any way on earth they could have secured the entrances before they had significant amounts of people on campus.

[bob]

Just in case anyone missed it, from the last press conference, they stated that the shooter in the classrooms was not the person they suspected in the first shooting, and that "person of interest" was speaking with police at the time of the second shooting. That guy has been released, but remains a "person of interest".

They are waiting on ballistics to determine if the two shootings are related.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Originally Posted by bob

Just in case anyone missed it, from the last press conference, they stated that the shooter in the classrooms was not the person they suspected in the first shooting, and that "person of interest" was speaking with police at the time of the second shooting. That guy has been released, but remains a "person of interest".

They are waiting on ballistics to determine if the two shootings are related.

Yea, I am wondering if the first shooting was intended as a diversion so that the second one could take place.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by bob

Just in case anyone missed it, from the last press conference, they stated that the shooter in the classrooms was not the person they suspected in the first shooting, and that "person of interest" was speaking with police at the time of the second shooting. That guy has been released, but remains a "person of interest".

They are waiting on ballistics to determine if the two shootings are related.

So essentially the person they thought was the shooter was in custody?

I can see why the didn't lock-down if that was the case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

[King of New York]

I'm trying to figure out how VT could both 1) not lockdown the campus because they thought the shooter had left campus, and 2) not lockdown the campus because they were questioning a guy whom they believed to be the first shooter. Either one of those reasons is plausible, but they cannot both be true.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

I didn't realize video games gives you feelings of humiliation, jealousy, hatred and being jilted?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

I mentioned Jack Thompson earlier in this thread and how "shockingly" when I turned from CNN after several hours there to Fox News one of the first things I hear is his moronic self being interviewed.

I fully expect that any sign he played any video game, whether it be guitar hero or Grand Theft Auto to be heavily blamed for this.

As a sociology "buff" (what I majored in in high-school) it's pretty easy to realize that at this stage of culture there's now ay you could make any scientifically significant statement about the ties of video games to these incidents.

What I mean is - good luck finding a male in college that hasn't played a violent video game.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by King of New York

I'm trying to figure out how VT could both 1) not lockdown the campus because they thought the shooter had left campus, and 2) not lockdown the campus because they were questioning a guy whom they believed to be the first shooter. Either one of those reasons is plausible, but they cannot both be true.

A plausible scenario combining those two is that they thought he was taken into custody shortly after leaving campus.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by King of New York

I'm trying to figure out how VT could both 1) not lockdown the campus because they thought the shooter had left campus, and 2) not lockdown the campus because they were questioning a guy whom they believed to be the first shooter. Either one of those reasons is plausible, but they cannot both be true.

I'm pretty confused on that one too. I didn't hear the later press conference, so it seems weird to me too. The best I can figure is in the earlier press conference they didn't want to release about this other guy.

Idano, makes no sense to me.

[wade moore]

Side Note - I need to be smart and not go to other boards besides this one to see discussion of this issue.

Good god people are idiots.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

Yeah, that Dr. Phil / Larry King piece was atrocious. King, being at least 130 years old, should probably just hang it up. His questions during his segment were about as bad as they come (or maybe someone else wrote them, and that someone should probably not have that type of job). Wolf Blitzer earlier in the day ... wow, just terrible (as usual).

I also listened to a bit of Savage on accident this afternoon, and dude was yacking about how the police were lying about the gunman being shot in the head, and other really off-the-wall-Bush-personally-flew-planes-into-the-twin-towers type of stuff.

We'll definitely see GTA getting blamed for this, just as Doom has been blamed in the past and probably Pac-Man before that.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Meanwhile, various talking heads on various news shows in the 9 o'clock hour (including Dr. Phil on Larry King Live) basically said that violent video games/violent media culture was the root cause of incidents like today.

Don't forget gun control. I saw that talked about on Scarborough as well.

[BrianD]

Like usual, all the people with political agendas are going to push them in light of this tragedy and fingers are going to be pointed everywhere. At this point, this story is probably about everything except the victims and the shooter(s). Sad that we can go from tragedy to political capital so quickly.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Like usual, all the people with political agendas are going to push them in light of this tragedy and fingers are going to be pointed everywhere. At this point, this story is probably about everything except the victims and the shooter(s). Sad that we can go from tragedy to political capital so quickly.

Agreed. I knew it would happen, but a small part of me hoped that it would take a little longer than this.

[VPI97]

What I've heard via word of mouth (Montgomery Co. Deputy -> my dad -> me) is that they had an eyewitness to the first shooting who described a white guy fleeing the scene and driving off in his car. Blacksburg P.D. picked the guy up and was questioning him when the second shooting occurred. Dunno if he's still a suspect or if it's going to end up being the same guy as the Norris shootings...I guess the ballistics report will be the deciding factor on that.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Agreed. I knew it would happen, but a small part of me hoped that it would take a little longer than this.

It is probably a function of the fact that we have a ton of news stations and they don't have a whole lot to talk about yet while the details are sorted out. About the only thing they can do is make up a bunch of unrelated crap and get all of the "experts" talking...as if anyone could be an expert on a situation like this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

What I mean is - good luck finding a male in college that hasn't played a violent video game.

But in saying that (which I agree with) you're sort of helping make their point regardless of whether there's any causation. What was the phrase Dr. Phil used on King tonight? Something to the effect of "it's obvious that there's a connection". If you can use that sort of wording effectively enough, proof won't be required for the majority of people to agree.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But in saying that (which I agree with) you're sort of helping make their point regardless of whether there's any causation. What was the phrase Dr. Phil used on King tonight? Something to the effect of "it's obvious that there's a connection". If you can use that sort of wording effectively enough, proof won't be required for the majority of people to agree.

Can't disagree with you there. I have no doubt that they will be pretty successful in convincing a decent part of the population of the fact.

But from anyone that looks at it objectively the causation just isn't there and i know that in my head.

As I like to say in these situations (just like back when D&D was being blamed for stuff and god knows what 50 years ago.. elvis's hips or something?) - Psychos are psychos. These things do not make them psychos. There are countless numbers of perfectly sane people doing these things that don't go crazy and kill people.

Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir. I just feel like at this stage saying it was video games for a 20 year old male college student is as valid as saying that driving a car causes this.

[wade moore]

Dola - and don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from.

And the fact that odds are he played violent games makes it so that they feel much safer pulling that card earlier and earlier in these situations.

[cougarfreak]

Sad, sad situation all the way around. Hindsight is 20/20 guys, if a crazed idiot hellbent on killing people is running around on campus, there's not really a whole hell of alot you can do. Short of posting armed guards around, it's damn near impossible to come up with a solution. Even if there is a lockdown, who's to say that doesn't make the situation worse, and lock kids in a building with this maniac? I teach in a school, and this is obviously a horrible nightmare for someone like me, but really, there is no solution. We have lockdown procedures.........but I can tell you, it's almost impossible to get all doors secured and locked. We have one police officer in the building for 1700 students, there's no way he can cover all the area. It's just a bad deal all the way around.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But in saying that (which I agree with) you're sort of helping make their point regardless of whether there's any causation. What was the phrase Dr. Phil used on King tonight? Something to the effect of "it's obvious that there's a connection". If you can use that sort of wording effectively enough, proof won't be required for the majority of people to agree.

If we tried hard enough, I bet we could get a good number of people believing that since all these shootings happen on school campuses that schools are the cause of the shootings. I mean, if this type of thing is always happening at schools, there's got to be something about schools that causes it, right? It's so obvious.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by sabotai

If we tried hard enough, I bet we could get a good number of people believing that since all these shootings happen on school campuses that schools are the cause of the shootings. I mean, if this type of thing is always happening at schools, there's got to be something about schools that causes it, right? It's so obvious.

How about this one..

All of these incidents are covered heavily by the media. They show the glory that these people get, these poor, unnoticed, dejected kids.

Hmmmm... I might be onto something here - I wonder if one of the news channels will let me talk about it?!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I wonder if one of the news channels will let me talk about it?!

Maybe. That point (or at least the specific point about the potential incitement of constantly referring to this as "a record") was mentioned by one of the talking heads on FNC earlier.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Maybe. That point (or at least the specific point about the potential incitement of constantly referring to this as "a record") was mentioned by one of the talking heads on FNC earlier.

Good. While I won't claim that people are doing this because of media, I certainly think that the media is as responsible - and likely more responsible - than video games, movies, etc for these large scale violent actions.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Sad sad news. Until I hear more, a lot more, I'm not placing any blame of looking to place it (except on the shooter).

When I first heard about the number of fatalities, I assumed there was an assault rifle of some sort involved (which kind of made me mad because although I am ok with hanguns and rifles, I am anti-assault rifle for just these types of things). But apparently, it looks like the shooter had handguns so I am not so sure the gun control guys got much of an argument.

And as for video games, I've always looked at it this way. If it turns out the shooter played them, isn't the more rational connection one that BECAUSE he WAS ALREADY a violent person, he was attracted to playing such games AND NOT that he was basically a nonviolent person who was converted to violence by a video game? And if I am right, aren't violent video games a good thing because it might actually prevent shootings because a potentiall violent person may get it out of their system by playing the game only?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Good. While I won't claim that people are doing this because of media, I certainly think that the media is as responsible - and likely more responsible - than video games, movies, etc for these large scale violent actions.

Of course, now we'll find out that the shooter was a Luddite who spoke no English & blow both theories out of the water

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Of course, now we'll find out that the shooter was a Luddite who spoke no English & blow both theories out of the water

Well, then we can shift to the ever-popular "planted by a foreign nation" theory that I'm seeing on other boards now...

Ugh...

Every now and then my optimistic view of the world I live in just gets beaten to hell...

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

But apparently, it looks like the shooter had handguns so I am not so sure the gun control guys got much of an argument.

See, to me that says that maybe people shouldn't have handguns either.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Sad sad news. Until I hear more, a lot more, I'm not placing any blame of looking to place it (except on the shooter).

Despite me talking about it everything a lot here (mostly to settly myself and talk this out for my own sanity here amongst "friends") - I think this is a crucial point.

I do not like the attacks already being launched at the administration, police, etc, etc.. I think let's deal with the travesty, the families, the students who are probably scared, etc..

There will be a time and a place to fully understand what happened, where mistakes were made, and to educated all college administrations on better ways to handle these issues in the future.

That time is not today, or probably the next few days. The administration I think needs to be stronger in this and make this their key message. Get the facts out and then focus on the grieving process, rather than even entertaining this other garbage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Well, then we can shift to the ever-popular "planted by a foreign nation" theory that I'm seeing on other boards now...

It did cross my mind earlier how much different I believe the reaction would have been if initial reports had referred to the shooter as Middle Eastern instead of Asian.

[Izulde]

Speaking from a somewhat selfish standpoint here, I'm paranoid that it's going to come out that whoever did the shooting had some kind of mental illness, whether bipolar disorder or some other affliction.

As if overcoming the stigma wasn't hard enough in this country, incidents like this only reinforce the negative public perception and encourage secrecy and hiding from potential or current employers, schools, etc.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It did cross my mind earlier how much different I believe the reaction would have been if initial reports had referred to the shooter as Middle Eastern instead of Asian.

Yup. Some West Coast paper is reporting that he was on a student Visa from China (seems very unconfirmed from what I can tell) and folks on some other boards are running with that almost as badly as if it was a Middle Eastern man. But, the mass-hysteria if they said Middle Eastern would have been very ugly.

Originally Posted by Izulde

Speaking from a somewhat selfish standpoint here, I'm paranoid that it's going to come out that whoever did the shooting had some kind of mental illness, whether bipolar disorder or some other affliction.

As if overcoming the stigma wasn't hard enough in this country, incidents like this only reinforce the negative public perception and encourage secrecy and hiding from potential or current employers, schools, etc.

Another good point.

Meh.

[JonInMiddleGA]

First victim I've seen identified so far. The RA killed in the first shooting was a Georgian, and member of the Hokies marching band.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metr...entkilled.html

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

First victim I've seen identified so far. The RA killed in the first shooting was a Georgian, and member of the Hokies marching band.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metr...entkilled.html

Clark, who had been at the school since 2002, had completed his coursework and was set to walk across the graduation stage in May with bachelor's degrees in biology and English, his twin brother said Monday night.

Ugh, ugh, ugh...

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Speaking from a somewhat selfish standpoint here, I'm paranoid that it's going to come out that whoever did the shooting had some kind of mental illness, whether bipolar disorder or some other affliction.

As if overcoming the stigma wasn't hard enough in this country, incidents like this only reinforce the negative public perception and encourage secrecy and hiding from potential or current employers, schools, etc.

Every single publicized violent incident has always pointed to something, whether mental illness or more likely, abuse as a child or some other thing that one can point to as to the root of the problem. In this case, insecurity manifesting itself into a relationship psychosis may be blamed. Problem is, those are all symptoms but we like to have easy answers instead.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Every single publicized violent incident has always pointed to something, whether mental illness or more likely, abuse as a child or some other thing that one can point to as to the root of the problem. In this case, insecurity manifesting itself into a relationship psychosis may be blamed. Problem is, those are all symptoms but we like to have easy answers instead.

True, but your average person doesn't have the awareness needed to recognize that, at least in my opinion. They like to reduce things to simple terms like soandso was fillinblank, and fillinblank was what made them do that.

It does however make you realize just what kind of ripple effects go on from these things that most people don't even recognize or think about.

[GoldenEagle]

My question is if they picked up the guy believed to be responsible for the first shooting, then why do they no longer have him in custody?

My co-worker had a good theory if they the two shootings were in fact done by two people. Maybe the second guy who did the shooting, was waiting until April 20th to do the killings. But he decided that with the shooting this morning, he might not have the chance with extra police, etc. So he decided to go ahead and do it today while he had the chance. I know it is speculation, but it makes sense if the shootings are separate incidents.