The Higher Education Thread

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by dunkem

The key to most institution's gift aid is applying early. On October 1st, complete your FAFSA so you're at the front of the line. If you have a crazy high EFC, you may not be eligible for any need based aid (subsidized loans), Pell grant, or the gift aid. Usually your eligibility for the need based aid is something like cost of attendance minus EFC minus outside resources (scholarships, waivers, etc).

Got our FAFSA in fairly early. Regardless, our EFC is apparently crazy high enough.

Now that my wife is working full-time and has been nursing for 20 years, our income is quite a bit higher than it has been through most of our marriage. That's obviously good now overall (and I guess for paying off future loans), but not good for EFC calculations and not for saving anything for college along the way.

[Drake]

I think back to when I was graduating high school, and there was never any expectation that my parents would pay for anything. If I wanted to go, I had to figure out how to finance it (either by applying for/earning scholarships or tracking down my own grants and loans). This didn't seem uncommon for any of my peer group.

Now I'm 1.5 years away from putting my third kid through college and wondering how the fuck I got suckered into changing societal expectations.

ETA: Oh, yeah. I just remembered all those years of paying on my (and my wife's) crushing school loan debt. That's why I wrote those checks for my kids. Ungrateful bastards. They'd better put me in a nice nursing home when the time comes.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by molson

A study found that the California State University system had 11,614 full-time faculty in 1973, and 12,019 in 2008. During that same time period, administrators grew from 3,800 to 12,183, ending up with more administrators than faculty. I would guess that things were not really all that lean in 1973 either. It has only gotten worse since 2008. An anonymous college professor -- he calls himself "Professor Doom" -- has been chronicling his own experience working in this environment of bureaucratic horror."

It's also interesting how universities count scholarship money and grants as "expenses". I guess it is in a sense, but, they're just strategically accepting less money for certain students, that doesn't mean that the initial $60k tuition price is an appropriate and required default point to keep the lights on and that anything less than that is an "expense" that has to be recovered elsewhere.

I guess that partially explains of how I paid only $868 a year in tuition to attend San Diego State University. Even with inflation, I don’t think the number is comparable today.

Now about the cost of text books....

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Even with inflation, I don’t think the number is comparable today.

Even adjusting for inflation, the cost of tuition has increased something like 4X since the 70s. (and private schools have increased more than that, public schools somewhat less).

[JPhillips]

Unless they're looking at top tier scholls, students generally choose a college based on preferences other than academics, and all those things cost money. Students are paying a lot more for dorms, student centers, athletic buildings, student activities, etc. than in decades past. Students are always impressed that our IT will fix their personal computers for free. They don't connect that they are paying for the service through their tuition.

[PilotMan]

University has gotten much more of a Country Club feel to it than it used to. Those things bring students in. Those things also drive up costs, no question.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by molson

Where does all this tuition money go? I always figured the price was just going to go up and up as long as the government and private loans were willing to front more and more of the cost (and guarantee payment), but, where is this money actually going, and is running a school so much more expensive than it was such a few decades ago?

.

Very interesting, some thoughts from my perspective as an high school teacher on a community college campus:
College enrollment from 1970 to today has massively increased. It makes some sense that an increase from under 9 million to nearly 20 million would also greatly increase admin. The fact that faculty not increasing is, I think, the most shocking thing.

Also, the total abandonment of post high school opportunities has contributed to this. Of the 70% that attend college only around 40% will graduate with a degree (which i think also makes a lop sided need for freshmen admin's). While our society will probably need more graduates than 40%, we are far from needing 70%.

[dunkem]

If you got a good in state university, it helps with the resident tuition. I get that kids want the experience or want to get away from their parents, but these days, non-resident tuition is so high that it's not feasible to send kids away.

Schools are too concerned about their admission rates not their retention rates so a lot of times, they paint the pretty picture to attract the student without telling them honestly what the costs are. When they get admitted and they get their award letters, they're stuck with a small sub/unsub loan, maybe a Pell grant, and a whopping 20K in PLUS loans as their offer. Kids/parents expect that there will be sufficient financial aid to cover, but... this is the US government we're talking about...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dunkem

If you got a good in state university, it helps with the resident tuition. I get that kids want the experience or want to get away from their parents, but these days, non-resident tuition is so high that it's not feasible to send kids away.

Unless the school actually wants the student ... in which case the non-resident stuff tends to vanish rather quickly in a lot of cases.

Schools are too concerned about their admission rates not their retention rates so a lot of times, they paint the pretty picture to attract the student without telling them honestly what the costs are.

My question here, though, would be: where's the role of due diligence for the parents there though? I mean (picking an example out of thin air here), is the campus Greek-oriented? And if so, how strongly? If that's a major factor in the overall experience then you're looking at several thousand additional dollars a year in real costs (i.e. actual cost of living, not just the official estimates) on that alone. But the time to figure that kind of thing out is before selection, not after. I could throw out other examples, that happens to be one of the more pricy ones I could think of. "Is it a car-oriented campus ... and how's the parking situation" is probably another good one.

[dunkem]

IF the parent is doing their due diligence that is... which a lot of parents do NOT. Sometimes it's the kids saying he wants to go to some school halfway across the continent because all his friends are going there and assuming financial aid will take care of it all or if not, mom or dad will flip the bill. Even if the parent does his due dilligence, is it worth those thousands of dollars for that "experience"? Is the education that much better? Can the parent even afford it for four years (at least...) Will your child take his/her sweet old time and even pass their classes so they graduate in four years? Will they pay for on campus housing or off campus? Yes, planning is key to funding children's education, but often there is no planning whatsoever.

If a school wants the student, of course, they'll make every effort to give the student a free ride... but I think the vast majority of students are in the other boat.. and therefore it becomes an affordability issue. Yeah, we all want to live in a nice big house in a great neighborhood, but our affordability says, we live in a cramped apartment in a so so neighborhood.

[AENeuman]

Well this was good timing
High-Paying Trade Jobs Sit Empty, While High School Grads Line Up For University : NPR Ed : NPR

“But high school graduates have been so effectively encouraged to get a bachelor's that high-paid jobs requiring shorter and less expensive training are going unfilled. This affects those students and also poses a real threat to the economy.

"Parents want success for their kids," said Mike Clifton, who teaches machining at a technical college near Seattle called the Lake Washington Institute of Technology. "They get stuck on [four-year bachelor's degrees], and they're not seeing the shortage there is in tradespeople until they hire a plumber and have to write a check."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dunkem

IF the parent is doing their due diligence that is... which a lot of parents do NOT.

But if they aren't, honestly, do we really want anybody loaning them money?

I mean, at some point maybe being a fucking dumbass isn't something anybody ought to be subsidizing, ya know? (And least of all the government, a private entity can, I suppose, support stupidity to whatever degree they choose)

If a school wants the student, of course, they'll make every effort to give the student a free ride... but I think the vast majority of students are in the other boat

I think, honestly, this is something that doesn't get enough play. If they don't show a certain level of interest then maybe it's up to the consumer to do a better job of figuring out that somebody is just trying to sell you something. They're in it for themselves with minimal benefit to you. At that point, deal with some hard truths & explore the options.

(fwiw, I promise, I may be ranting a little bit but I'm not ranting at you. You just sorta provide a jumping off point)

edit to add: There's all sorts of situations & configurations, I'm not saying everything is simple or cut & dried. But I do see a lot of really bad decision making processes around this stuff on a regular basis. And it doesn't so much piss me off as it ... confounds me. It's not easy, it's not simple ... which means it requires a helluva lot of effort to get anywhere near right in most cases, not the "well the magic choices fairy will come along & fix it" approach that seems to be sorta common.

The fact that this thread / discussion even exists pretty much puts every participant ahead of the curve vs the general public ... and that ought to be just damned frightening.

[dunkem]

That is so true.. that there is a whole lot of bad decision making on parents, students, and the institutions. Hell, some schools puts so much into recruiting quantity that they overlook the quality of students. Honestly, some schools care about who attends their schools because they're an Ivy League school, but the majority of less financially successful schools are just hard up for your money and attendance. They can't "bribe" everyone with free rides because institutional and scholarship money is often scarce. What happens is the free money goes to the zero EFC, "financially needy" kids to bring them in while the rest of the students are on their own with loans.

Clearly, it's no surprise that with this era of instant gratification, students and parents put very little effort into really figuring out what they want and how they can afford it. They think they can just show up and it'll be paid for by the government somehow and if student doesn't like it, oh well, transfer to another school.

Same within the institution... things are so automated that people need to be spoonfed to get things done because they just shut their brains off.

The world is getting lazier because it no longer takes the manual investment of working on something to get anything. Even simple things like adding/dropping classes is all online so you've got kids just flipping around like nothing vs. in the old days, you had to stand in a actual line and go through the rigors of seeing what else is available before making a decision. Same with applying to colleges and receiving responses. Ironically, it should be EASIER to gather more information with automation to make an informed decision, however, the easier it is, the lazier most get.

The government probably doesn't want to subsidize all these "dumbasses", but the pressure and the conundrum of "we have to show we're helping college education especially for the financially needy, while they're complaining about high debt" is going on.

You choose to take the loan, you pay the loan. Society thinks they can somehow get away with NOT paying their debt that they knowingly and willingly signed up for.

No worries Jon, I get that you're not ranting at me. I'm equally frustrated at all facets of this discussion as well as general society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I have a real unpopular feeling about the whole situation really (shocking, I know).

I basically attribute some portion (no, I don't know what percentage) of the current situation to programs like HOPE. That increased demand, and we know what happens to prices when demand goes up. Thing is, it's a manufactured demand, brought on by the essentially "free" nature of it.

In the early days of the program, my untraditional student self sat and listened to how it was talked about by traditionally aged students. "Another semester & my vacation will be over ... my grades will knock me off HOPE and then I'll go find a job ... but it's been a good ride while it lasted". Those weren't students, they were people taking a holiday.

Obviously that wasn't all of them but the graduation rates certainly suggest it wasn't a bunch of outliers either. Retention rates (those who managed to pull a 3.0 to keep the money throughout their eligibility) have ranged from around 60% at UGA (where the like to trumpet the high threshold for admissions) to 15% at the bottom end of the state's university system. Fifteen ... fucking ... percent, at places not exactly known for their rigor.

But the system loves the dollars, and with all that money flowing in, churn & burn time baby. Let's sang those "students" who have as much business in a college classroom as I have leading a seminar on the benefits of safe speech zones and rake in that cash. And with all that "demand", there's obvious reason that tuition costs in Georgia have risen 77% over the past decade.

[Edward64]

There is no doubt there is some HS "grade inflation" that gets some into GA colleges with the HOPE scholarship and they get weeded out after the first year.

I think min GPA with SAT/ACT should be considered for GA HOPE.

I do believe there are inherent biases where the lower socio-economic group will not get as much opportunities for college but use the HOPE savings for 2 year vocational colleges or apprenticeships.

Our US college tuition costs are plain stupid. They are artificially inflated because of the easy access to grants/scholarships/loans.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by dunkem

If a school wants the student, of course, they'll make every effort to give the student a free ride...

What I've learned is that there's a difference between "want" and "this student REALLY checks the boxes." Again, I really expected to see more dollars thrown my son's way. And if he had applied to a different set of schools, he probably would have seen more. But take Purdue. They probably do want him -- they sure send enough emails -- but rein that in because of a number of possible factors:

1. state school, which has to take a certain % from in-state
2. generally doesn't offer a lot of non-need based aid
3. their engineering program is popular
4. like many state schools, probably looks to make their money off OOS students
5. may have plenty of other kids available to fill a "Maryland quota"
6. probably has plenty of other white applicants
7. probably has plenty of other male applicants

The media focused on the now-yearly story of "this teen applied to all the Ivies - and got a full ride from all!" a little ways back. It's becoming as regular as "watch the look on this child's face when he is surprised by his service dad!" features. Those kids - who make no mistake, are brilliant kids - do follow a pattern. They check boxes. And as the blog of the GT admissions guy admits, schools do look to check boxes (it's almost like making sure you have a legal FOF roster...)

[CU Tiger]

Man I am a couple years behind you guys but that train is rolling down the tracks way too fast.

My son is nearing the end of his junior year and has no clue where he wants to go to college.
He's focused so much on the athletic angle of "Who wants me AND has an engineering program they will let me enroll in while being an athlete" ..and hasn't really put much weight into any other aspects.

We are blessed to have options on multiple fronts. Both that he has scholarship offers and we are financially able to provide some (though not all) options.

What I have done with my kids, and we've had these conversations since about 4th grade on, is I have college savings plans like most everyone. The rules are:
- I pay for undergrad only. If you want a post grad degree that's on you. Hopefully its a degree that will make it easy for you to pay it back.
- Every year I tell the kids what is in their college accounts. If they want to go to a more expensive option, they are free to. But they are responsible for the cost delta.
- If you choose to not go to a 4 year degree school I will pay for a trade school and upon your graduation I will split the balance in the account with you.
-If you dont go to college or trade school, Mom and I keep the entire account balance.

Beyond that I dont know that Im where I should be on the knowledge front. Jon talking about things like frat/sorr % and costs...I dont even know where to research info like that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Beyond that I dont know that Im where I should be on the knowledge front. Jon talking about things like frat/sorr % and costs...I dont even know where to research info like that.

It's been edufuckingcational for me over the past couple of years, that's for damned sure. My wife tells me that the go-to for that info would be the IFC (interfraternity council) webpage at the university in question. There'll usually be some sort of "guidebook" or similar document that details participation rates, a range for dues, and so forth.

To give you an idea, I'll just tell you the real costs in our case:
$450/month for 10 months a year in dues, plus at least $500ish each year for the absolute must-dos like formal (which is held out of town by tradition there). So basically $5,000 a year, and that doesn't count costs associated with living in the house (since that's kind of a trade-off, cause you gotta live & eat somewhere).

And that's just the stereotypical fraternity/sorority. That doesn't count any costs associated (typically not more than $100-$200 per) for any other fraternal organizations based on academic/service/major/etc rather than social.

It's probably all less of a shock for parents who were Greek themselves but for a devout GDI like me, it's a pretty big wtf to realize what it can cost.

On a campus that's single-digit Greek, it's pretty optional. On campuses where it's 1/3rd or more of the population however, it borders on being essential if you're looking to be fully integrated into campus life.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

To give you an idea, I'll just tell you the real costs in our case:
$450/month for 10 months a year in dues, plus at least $500ish each year for the absolute must-dos like formal (which is held out of town by tradition there). So basically $5,000 a year, and that doesn't count costs associated with living in the house (since that's kind of a trade-off, cause you gotta live & eat somewhere).

And that's just the stereotypical fraternity/sorority. That doesn't count any costs associated (typically not more than $100-$200 per) for any other fraternal organizations based on academic/service/major/etc rather than social.

It's probably all less of a shock for parents who were Greek themselves but for a devout GDI like me, it's a pretty big wtf to realize what it can cost.

On a campus that's single-digit Greek, it's pretty optional. On campuses where it's 1/3rd or more of the population however, it borders on being essential if you're looking to be fully integrated into campus life.

Good lord. I'm looking at my wife's sorority's page at Rutgers for the current year (they're a pretty big one). Their total fees for the year, not including housing, are $535. Another one was a bit under $1K total.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

Good lord. I'm looking at my wife's sorority's page at Rutgers for the current year (they're a pretty big one). Their total fees for the year, not including housing, are $535. Another one was a bit under $1K total.

Yeah, it can vary a lot (his are not the highest on the Ole Miss campus either, I believe there's one that's $600 or $650 a month, before housing/food)

Circumstances like house ownership/lease/none, past organizational finances (i.e. debt load for the chapter), dues collection rates, national's cut, and simply gross number of members all play into it.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Did you move?
Or is UGA not "a major university"?

(I'm thinking HOPE here, basically ... so I'm a little confused)

Sorry, I was coming back here to post, and missed this when you asked. I was thinking "Major" as in top tier private school (say, Emory).



Things have changed a bit since back then. He has sort of settled on two majors as possibilities. Computer Science or Linguistics. He also started eyeing Georgia Tech very hard. Tech has a lot going for it (close to home, HOPE paying full tuition, some of the highest paid graduates in the country), so I have no qualms about Tech.



BUT, he has a real skill with language. Not that he doesn't with math, but I can see language is what he really enjoys. He finished two years of Spanish, and is currently a teachers aid for Spanish. He took Latin this year, finished the course work for two years of Latin by January, and is going to take AP Latin next year that is usually only open for 3rd year Latin students. He has notebooks full of where he was worked on Latin, Spanish, Arabic, Korean and Japanese. He is also one of 20 students (this was highschool and college students) selected to spend a full month on the campus of Emory Oxford for a full ride intensive study of Arabic.


To me, I sort of want him to look at UGA. He is not going to have a linguistics program at GT, and he can do/try both at UGA. I have also been told that South Carolina has a very good linguistic program, and they have been "recruiting" him since 7th grade. I also think he has many more opportunities for additional scholarships at Georgia (where he will probably be top 1-5%), then at Tech (where he will be one of the crowd).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Sorry, I was coming back here to post, and missed this when you asked. I was thinking "Major" as in top tier private school (say, Emory).

Things have changed a bit since back then. He has sort of settled on two majors as possibilities. Computer Science or Linguistics. He also started eyeing Georgia Tech very hard. Tech has a lot going for it (close to home, HOPE paying full tuition, some of the highest paid graduates in the country), so I have no qualms about Tech.

BUT, he has a real skill with language. Not that he doesn't with math, but I can see language is what he really enjoys. He finished two years of Spanish, and is currently a teachers aid for Spanish. He took Latin this year, finished the course work for two years of Latin by January, and is going to take AP Latin next year that is usually only open for 3rd year Latin students. He has notebooks full of where he was worked on Latin, Spanish, Arabic, Korean and Japanese. He is also one of 20 students (this was highschool and college students) selected to spend a full month on the campus of Emory Oxford for a full ride intensive study of Arabic.

To me, I sort of want him to look at UGA. He is not going to have a linguistics program at GT, and he can do/try both at UGA. I have also been told that South Carolina has a very good linguistic program, and they have been "recruiting" him since 7th grade. I also think he has many more opportunities for additional scholarships at Georgia (where he will probably be top 1-5%), then at Tech (where he will be one of the crowd).

Cool. Congrats, sounds as if your kid really has a talent for it.

What would he do with a linguistics (?) degree? I think like an interpreter or teaching? Maybe the profession he wants should feed into the decision making.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Cool. Congrats, sounds as if your kid really has a talent for it.

What would he do with a linguistics (?) degree? I think like an interpreter or teaching? Maybe the profession he wants should feed into the decision making.

Good question. My guess is interpreter, but for whom is the question. If he combines something like Korean or Japanese with computer science, I'd imagine there are lots of business options there. I imagine combining computer science with Arabic might lead to more a governmental role with certain letter agencies. I am not sure yet what he has in mind.

[britrock88]

Deep state? (wink)

[GrantDawg]

Update time, as it is time for the application process. Simon has been working on a number of applications, and he also applied for the Questbridge match program. He is sort of a long shot for that, because our income is a little higher than their suggested range. If he did get that, though, he would free applications to a long list of top tier schools, plus the possibility of matching with a school that would provide him a free ride.
His list of schools right now are Yale, Williams College (he went on a fly-in last weekend and loved it), Georgia Tech, Georgia, Rochester Tech, and Kennesaw State (safest of safeties).

Anyone else stressing the process this year?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Anyone else stressing the process this year?

It's time for us to stress about the upcoming LSAT.

That's stressful but I'll say that it has a different vibe / level of stress about it.


The difference, I think, may lie more than anything in the fact that he's 21 instead of 17 now. He's been through this process now so it's less unknown / more old hat to him (and us).

[PilotMan]

Oh man, I totally forgot this thread existed.



I've got a Jr and a Sr now. The Jr is just now thinking about what he might want to do and what kind of future he would like to pursue. The Sr on the other hand...to stick to the nature of this thread. I have nothing saved, no plans for help from the grand parents, and make way too much money to get any sort of assistance. I told the boys that they have to stay in state to take advantage of all the 'in state' gambling scholarship money as they can. He found out last year that he doesn't like high level math like his dad, and so his thoughts on anything Engineering related went out the window. It's no surprise, that my kid, who grew up in love with all things transportation, is now planning to pursue a career in aviation.



There is exactly one school in Kentucky (Eastern Kentucky) that has a program and he's already accepted for next year. He's already working on his private pilot's license, while he takes classes at NKU, and his high school, and runs track and cross country. He's not good enough to be a likely scholarship recipient either. So there's going to be some debtaccrued on his end and ours.



The upside is that should everything fall into place he'll start next fall as a SO with his private, and like 37 credits. A solid head start and good chance to knock it all out in 3 years.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

...
There is exactly one school in Kentucky (Eastern Kentucky) that has a program and he's already accepted for next year. He's already working on his private pilot's license, while he takes classes at NKU, and his high school, and runs track and cross country. He's not good enough to be a likely scholarship recipient either. So there's going to be some debtaccrued on his end and ours.

The upside is that should everything fall into place he'll start next fall as a SO with his private, and like 37 credits. A solid head start and good chance to knock it all out in 3 years.

That is fantastic!


Is there a school your son is eyeing, Jon? Or is trying to stay at Ole Miss?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Is there a school your son is eyeing, Jon? Or is trying to stay at Ole Miss?

Staying in Oxford would only be an absolute last resort to him I think. It's been real, it's been fun, but he's ready to move on. Socially, geographically, basically in every way.

(Among the issues is that Oxford has a very low post-grad population, to the point that he says you're almost like a weird sub-culture and not in a positive way)

His current list is still pretty broad, final choice will likely come down to his LSAT score(s) and relative costs. Vandy & UT seem to be the likeliest final choices best I can tell, with Ga State as the other safety aside from Ole Miss. Bama probably still on the fringes of contention. Longest long shot is probably Miami.

In my head I can't help but go back to something -- astute IMO -- he said to me last year. Paraphrasing, it was roughly his lament that he had to make a decision that would alter (if not largely determine) the course of the rest of his entire life at the ripe old age of 21. He noted that such a situation seemed unwise at best, bordering on downright unfair. I kinda get that.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Staying in Oxford would only be an absolute last resort to him I think. It's been real, it's been fun, but he's ready to move on. Socially, geographically, basically in every way.

(Among the issues is that Oxford has a very low post-grad population, to the point that he says you're almost like a weird sub-culture and not in a positive way)

His current list is still pretty broad, final choice will likely come down to his LSAT score(s) and relative costs. Vandy & UT seem to be the likeliest final choices best I can tell, with Ga State as the other safety aside from Ole Miss. Bama probably still on the fringes of contention. Longest long shot is probably Miami.

In my head I can't help but go back to something -- astute IMO -- he said to me last year. Paraphrasing, it was roughly his lament that he had to make a decision that would alter (if not largely determine) the course of the rest of his entire life at the ripe old age of 21. He noted that such a situation seemed unwise at best, bordering on downright unfair. I kinda get that.

Vandy would be nice. I wish Simon wanted to go there more (it is on his Questbridge match list, but it is unlikely he is going to apply there).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Vandy would be nice. I wish Simon wanted to go there more (it is on his Questbridge match list, but it is unlikely he is going to apply there).

By the time you reach post-grad, it's a pretty steep hill, even moreso financially than academically. The cost differential is, umm, damned painful.

(It's steep enough at the undergrad level, don't get me wrong, but Jeeeeesus)

[tarcone]

Would a federal firgiveness of student loan organization call someone to tell me I may qualify? Or would this be a scam? Im real interested in forgiveness, but Im not sure if they would be calling someone.

Anyone have any experience?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Would a federal firgiveness of student loan organization call someone to tell me I may qualify? Or would this be a scam? Im real interested in forgiveness, but Im not sure if they would be calling someone.

Anyone have any experience?

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-l...ing-loan-scams

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Oh man, I totally forgot this thread existed.



I've got a Jr and a Sr now. The Jr is just now thinking about what he might want to do and what kind of future he would like to pursue. The Sr on the other hand...to stick to the nature of this thread. I have nothing saved, no plans for help from the grand parents, and make way too much money to get any sort of assistance. I told the boys that they have to stay in state to take advantage of all the 'in state' gambling scholarship money as they can. He found out last year that he doesn't like high level math like his dad, and so his thoughts on anything Engineering related went out the window. It's no surprise, that my kid, who grew up in love with all things transportation, is now planning to pursue a career in aviation.



There is exactly one school in Kentucky (Eastern Kentucky) that has a program and he's already accepted for next year. He's already working on his private pilot's license, while he takes classes at NKU, and his high school, and runs track and cross country. He's not good enough to be a likely scholarship recipient either. So there's going to be some debtaccrued on his end and ours.



The upside is that should everything fall into place he'll start next fall as a SO with his private, and like 37 credits. A solid head start and good chance to knock it all out in 3 years.

What careers are available with that degree? Will he get flight training as a part of the course work?

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

What careers are available with that degree? Will he get flight training as a part of the course work?

I went to University of North Dakota, also one of the few schools with an aviation program.

Basically, Flight training is the program.
It allows students to get multi-engine certification and enough hours to get hired by commuter airlines.

Helicopter certification is also a big program.

The armed services are/were heavily recruiting the students.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

What careers are available with that degree? Will he get flight training as a part of the course work?

They have a couple of paths, one is a professional pilot (which he will pursue), and they have paths for Air Traffic Controller, and Airport/Business Management. The flight program costs are all additional to the regular tuition. So he will get his ratings, the program gets them through commercial multi, but he will also get all his CFI ratings there so he can teach.


The regional airlines are hurting for guys right now. Right now, they are recruiting guys, and putting them into pre-hire pools contingent on them getting their flight time and completing the programs. It's quite a bit different now than when I did training for that.

Originally Posted by Surtt

I went to University of North Dakota, also one of the few schools with an aviation program.

Basically, Flight training is the program.
It allows students to get multi-engine certification and enough hours to get hired by commuter airlines.

Helicopter certification is also a big program.

The armed services are/were heavily recruiting the students.

Flight times are a bit more stringent now. The FAA requires 1500 hours to be able to work as an airline pilot in the US now. He will finish his commercial with about 200 hours. That's a pretty big gap, hence the need to get his CFI and teach. He can do about 800 flight hours in a year if he's flying 5 days a week. Also, the school is certified by the FAA, meaning he can get a 500 hour credit and get a restricted ATP rating at 1000 hours and start working then. So about a hard year of teaching before he could get picked up. Which all things considered, isn't too shabby.



My company is planning to announce a new hiring program this week and they've told us that it's going to open up more avenues and opportunities to get good applicants. We'll see, but between being a legacy (my kid) and as long as he does well through training and his job, he could feasibly be at my company in about 8 years, at the age of 26ish, with just about 40 years to go.



He's probably the last of the career though. Companies are going to pushe for single pilot and eventually no pilot operations. Forty years from now things are going to look a lot different in aviation. Still, if he can pull that off, it's still a 7-10 Million dollar career (assuming the industry doesn't collapse, BIG if).

[Logan]

Honest question and I hope no one takes this personally. Being an involved parent is awesome and that should always be the goal.

That being said, do you guys who have so much knowledge on the gearing up for the application process and seemingly have so much hands-on experience actually guiding your kids through it...did you hope for or expect to be so involved when you think back on your kids being younger?

I only have one at this point, and she's not even 3 yet, so of course my thoughts will change as she gets older. But my plan has been to save as much as we can to pay for things and to generally give advice, keep her grounded, make sure she pays attention to deadlines, etc. Pretty basic stuff. That's about how much involvement my mother had with me back in the day (except for the saving, that wasn't in the cards), and I don't recall having many friends whose parents were doing much more than that.

Did you have the same mindset as me back when your kids were young? What caused things to change? Was it simply feeling like being so heavily involved is now a necessity due to a more competitive/confusing (especially for the kid) admissions process?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

Honest question and I hope no one takes this personally. Being an involved parent is awesome and that should always be the goal. That being said, do you guys who have so much knowledge on the gearing up for the application process and seemingly have so much hands-on experience actually guiding your kids through it...did you hope for or expect to be so involved when you think back on your kids being younger?

I only have one at this point, and she's not even 3 yet, so of course my thoughts will change as she gets older. But my plan has been to save as much as we can to pay for things and to generally give advice, keep her grounded, make sure she pays attention to deadlines, etc. Pretty basic stuff. That's about how much involvement my mother had with me back in the day (except for the saving, that wasn't in the cards), and I don't recall having many friends whose parents were doing much more than that.

Did you have the same mindset as me back when your kids were young? What caused things to change? Was it simply feeling like being so heavily involved is now a necessity due to a more competitive/confusing (especially for the kid) admissions process?

Long ass answer, but it's a deep subject so you'll just have to deal lol

Whatever it takes, within the bounds of feasibility (and, these days, I should probably add 'legality' just so we're clear). That was basically our approach.

My wife is the one that's the expert on this stuff, I was tangential at most honestly. But the depth of her involvement - particularly with the hoops involved in various scholarships - turned out to be worth well into five figures for us. That ain't chump change, so it was worth it and with not a trace of feeling apologetic.

That side of it - the financial - is really where we were the most involved. A fair bit of the rest of what we/I know was kind of by osmosis. We're a pretty ... communicative ... family. I could tell you stray stuff about his goings-on in the past month even though we haven't seen him since August. He could likewise tell you, I dunno, most of the video games I've played in the past ten days. Just stuff that comes up in conversation, etc.

Plus, we spent a LOT of years surrounded/immersed in this stuff.

He asked - unprompted - for his first college visit when he was around 9-10 years old. A very casual drive-through look around at that point but still. That was him steering the process (he wanted to start getting an idea of what to look for, what they felt like, etc). By 13 he was already taking unofficial visits on the regular. By 15 those were old hat to him, in spades. But you do those things enough times, see enough paperwork, hear/hear about enough introductory spiels, things kinda start to stick with you.

And when they're that engaged in the process, it's hard to not be willing to help. I think he applied to 13 (?) schools, virtually none of which used common app. That's a lot of paperwork, a lot of deadlines, and a lot of teaching opportunities (like how to repurpose admissions essays to fit the needs of the 9th one with something you did on the 4th one). I dare say if he'd been less engaged in the whole thing we might have been less involved as well.

The short answer to your question: I think it might be situational as much as anything.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Logan

Honest question and I hope no one takes this personally. Being an involved parent is awesome and that should always be the goal.

That being said, do you guys who have so much knowledge on the gearing up for the application process and seemingly have so much hands-on experience actually guiding your kids through it...did you hope for or expect to be so involved when you think back on your kids being younger?

I only have one at this point, and she's not even 3 yet, so of course my thoughts will change as she gets older. But my plan has been to save as much as we can to pay for things and to generally give advice, keep her grounded, make sure she pays attention to deadlines, etc. Pretty basic stuff. That's about how much involvement my mother had with me back in the day (except for the saving, that wasn't in the cards), and I don't recall having many friends whose parents were doing much more than that.

Did you have the same mindset as me back when your kids were young? What caused things to change? Was it simply feeling like being so heavily involved is now a necessity due to a more competitive/confusing (especially for the kid) admissions process?

As a father of a sophomore in college that jacked around until about May of her senior year as to where she was going and a Senior in HS who knows what she wants to do.

Here are my answers.

1st-- Open a college saving plan NOW!!!!!! They are mutual funds that are tax free when you use the money for college expenses. You can even link Debit cards to them so they earn money that way. DO IT NOW!!!

2nd-- Dont stress over the application process. Its easy. Both ,y daughters navigated it. Mt older daughter jacked around and got into a school that takes everybody. My younger daughter applied this summer and got in early to one of the best engineering schools in the nation. It is a very wide field.

3rd. Missouri has the A+ program which allows students free tuition at a co,,nity college. This is huge. When your kid is in HS make them do this. My oldest daughter should have. But she wanted the "college experience". Yeah, and she s going to pay for that experience the rest of her life.

4th-- FASFA sucks. Its the government tracking you. I hate that.

Seriously, start saving money now.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Logan

Honest question and I hope no one takes this personally. Being an involved parent is awesome and that should always be the goal.

That being said, do you guys who have so much knowledge on the gearing up for the application process and seemingly have so much hands-on experience actually guiding your kids through it...did you hope for or expect to be so involved when you think back on your kids being younger?

I only have one at this point, and she's not even 3 yet, so of course my thoughts will change as she gets older. But my plan has been to save as much as we can to pay for things and to generally give advice, keep her grounded, make sure she pays attention to deadlines, etc. Pretty basic stuff. That's about how much involvement my mother had with me back in the day (except for the saving, that wasn't in the cards), and I don't recall having many friends whose parents were doing much more than that.

Did you have the same mindset as me back when your kids were young? What caused things to change? Was it simply feeling like being so heavily involved is now a necessity due to a more competitive/confusing (especially for the kid) admissions process?

My daughter had dreams of going to a good school. She wasn't the best of students, but she is bright. I let her guide her own path way, but let her know it was her responsibility to apply to schools, get funding, and find a way to make it work. She did nothing, didn't apply anywhere, did one semester in community college and dropped out. If we has gotten more involved and made sure she hit deadlines and such, could she have done more? We will never know.
My son is going to be 16 when he graduates and barely 17 when he starts school. We are letting him drive the bus, but we are definitely helping him along the way. He has the potential for a very special future, and it has been totally self driven. I want him to meet his dreams, and I will help get there whatever he may need.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

3rd. Missouri has the A+ program which allows students free tuition at a co,,nity college. This is huge.

Caveat: only a gimme if an in-state school is in play. Otherwise, be sure to check what will be accepted for transfer credit by the destinations.

Same caveat applies to AP/IB courses though. Different schools have different thresholds they will accept, for example some will take a 3 on the AP exam while others require a 4/5 score, and even within the same university certain courses have different required scores. (as well as some having a limit on the number of hours you can get credit for).

[GrantDawg]

Today was the Georgia Tech visit. It really is a beautiful campus right in mid-town Atlanta. He really loved it.

[Logan]

Thanks for the responses guys.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Changes coming to the ACT are definitely worth knowing if you have a student that will be taking the test next fall or beyond.

This could be substantial for some students/families. Had the upcoming changes been in place 4 years ago, it would have been mid five-figures difference in scholarship money for us.

In ACT redesign, students can retake individual sections

[Ben E Lou]

Question about the various student loan debt forgiveness and free/heavily reduced college plans that may or may not come to pass before 2034ish, when I stop caring: what do these plans say about what happens to 529 accounts that could end up having "too much money" in them? Right now we're saving for "if y'all do in-state public and graduate in 4, you'll have no debt," so it wouldn't be an insignificant tax hit if there's not some sort of allowance for that. Any others with small children factoring that in?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Question about the various student loan debt forgiveness and free/heavily reduced college plans that may or may not come to pass before 2034ish, when I stop caring: what do these plans say about what happens to 529 accounts that could end up having "too much money" in them? Right now we're saving for "if y'all do in-state public and graduate in 4, you'll have no debt," so it wouldn't be an insignificant tax hit if there's not some sort of allowance for that. Any others with small children factoring that in?

I would press forward. There may be changes in the future, but there may not be as well. My guess will be if those programs became obsolete, they would let you roll into a 401k or some other tax-deferred vehicle and not slap you with a big punitive penalty.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Question about the various student loan debt forgiveness and free/heavily reduced college plans that may or may not come to pass before 2034ish, when I stop caring: what do these plans say about what happens to 529 accounts that could end up having "too much money" in them? Right now we're saving for "if y'all do in-state public and graduate in 4, you'll have no debt," so it wouldn't be an insignificant tax hit if there's not some sort of allowance for that. Any others with small children factoring that in?

As things stand, I think the only "penalty" one can incur with unused 529 funds that are cashed it is a recapture of the tax benefits from having put the funds into the 529.

That said, if that should come to pass, you can in all probability find a way to use the remaining 529 funds. There's K-12 expenses, if change comes quickly; there's grad school, if that's an eventual path for your children; and there's the possibility for transferring beneficiaries. (You can change the account beneficiary to make the funds available for a grandchild, next of kin, whomever.)

[PilotMan]

You could always swap and put money into a Roth IRA instead. Money in a Roth can be used for educational expenses and if not, it's already yours and set up for your future use.

[tarcone]

They ask you if it is for educational expenses. You say yes and you get no penalty.

Finished the FAFSA on both my daughters. Hoping a second child in college gets them some free money from the government.

[Edward64]

I've not seen Warren's or Sander's plan talk about how to treat students that did not go into debt to pay for college and I like the below idea of giving those students some sort of tax credit.

An argument could be made that those students came from rich families and therefore they had no debt to pay off. But only the minority. The majority of those are prob upper/middle income who was able to save for college and don't see why they should be left out.

I would like the forgiveness to come with students committing to some sort of societal payback. Health professionals committing a weekend a month to work at a small town, tax accountants volunteering to help others do tax prep, volunteer for habitat-for-humanity-like etc.

Paying for it is key. Warren/Sanders wants to tax rich/capital gains to pay off the forgiveness. Below adds corporations into the mix which I like too. But I would ask them to even go further and ask the colleges to help write down/pay for the forgiveness also somehow.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/31/stud...san-issue.html

At 5:01 a.m. on Thursday October 24, Dr. Wayne Johnson, who was hired by the Trump administration to oversee the country’s $1.6 trillion in student loan debt and its 44 million borrowers, submitted his resignation letter to Education Secretary Betsy DeVos. Around an hour later, Johnson made an announcement that hurled him into headlines.

Most of the student debt he’d managed, he said, should be cancelled.
:
Outstanding education debt has outpaced credit card and auto debt. The average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red today, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Every day, 3,000 borrowers go into default. Johnson calls the current system, “absolutely unsustainable.”
:
Johnson proposes to forgive $50,000 in student debt for all borrowers, which would reset the balances of some 37 million borrowers back to zero. The plan would be paid for with a 1% tax on revenue generated from corporations and non-profit organizations, Johnson said.

Johnson also hopes to widen the appeal of his proposal by offering any college graduate who didn’t borrow student loans, or had already paid off their debt, a $50,000 tax credit.