Interesting "Is There a God?" Article from Comedian Ricky Gervais

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not going to crap on this too much, but you really should learn when the Bible was written and by who. You do know this wasn't some historical record written at the time the events took place by eyewitnesses, right?

I would also add that there were many witnesses to Ra and the other Egyptian Gods. To Zeus and the other Greek Gods.

I think you should follow your advice. John, Mathew, Peter, Mark were there with Jesus. They wrote the beginning of the new testament. Paul wrote about 3/4ths of the New Testament. While he wasnt around Jesus, he was struck blind by God. When he regained his sight he saw the light. And became the greatest missionary of all time. He taught the teachings of Jesus. He did not witness what Jesus did. Nor did he profess too.
The Old Testament was written by men whom God told the story too. But that is just the beginning. Moses was a real man, Isaac, Jacob were real. David is in other writings besides the Bible. So Im not sure where you got your information. A couple centuries after Jesus death, the Church at the time convened and decided what books should go into the Bible. And that is how the Bible was put together.

As far as the gods you are talking about, yes I do believe in them. There are lots of gods today. The god of money, for instance. How many people spend their lives chasing that god?
But there is only one true God. And he sent his Son to die for our sins. I dont think any of those other gods would do that.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So if your boss needed you to work on the Sabbath, you would say no? That spending eternity in heaven is more important than some overtime? Because I know a lot of Christians who work on the Sabbath. I guess eternity in heaven isn't worth pissing off their boss.

I'm talking about some reward that is so great that there is literally nothing that you should do to hurt those chances. If I say if you have premarital sex, you won't be able to eat steak again, I could understand having a misstep. If I tell you that having premarital sex will decide whether you can spend eternity in heaven and you still do it, you either don't believe what I'm saying or just stupid.

Again, because I break God's law - which I'm sure I do countless times a day - doesn't mean I'm not going to heaven. According to the Bible, we are to set aside one day a week for rest. If I don't do that (or can't do that), I will not be struck down. Certainly, it's a good call on my part to do my best to follow his instruction and if I am truly a believer I do my best to follow his Word.

The bottom line is - we are all human. All of us make mistakes. NO human is without sin. Jesus came and washed away our sins and all we have to do is believe. I'm not sure why a belief in Christianity on my part suddenly makes me holier than thou. I'm not.

[thesloppy]

As long as this thread is already inflammatory:

It's my observance that there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of devout muslims, hindus, orthodox jews, etc. who have had no problem sticking to the absolute letter of their religion for thousands upon thousands of years.

Lots of devout Christians will claim to follow the word of the bible to the letter, but put absolutely no more real effort than the unaffiliated towards following those tenants, and when pushed on specifics will then excuse themselves with some sort of shrug, essentially saying, "well, I'm kinda trying as much as everybody else, what do you expect?"

Why is that? I don't want to imply that either approach is right or wrong, 'cause I'm not in the position to say, but I find it interesting that some very strict religions have managed to stick to their scripts, even within the confines of modern American society, but American Christian churches seem to have been promoting and pushing a pretty lazy version of Christianity for at least the last hundred years. I tend to think that is the result of the decay of the American Christian church, rather than the American Christian individual, but where does one go, or what does one do if one wants to be a MORE devout Christian than what is deemed currently acceptable? Strict devout Christianity seems to be just as marginalized within the church, as it is without, and in most cases those claiming to be the most divine or devout are just as far removed from the word of the bible (in total).

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Again, because I break God's law - which I'm sure I do countless times a day - doesn't mean I'm not going to heaven. According to the Bible, we are to set aside one day a week for rest. If I don't do that (or can't do that), I will not be struck down. Certainly, it's a good call on my part to do my best to follow his instruction and if I am truly a believer I do my best to follow his Word.

The bottom line is - we are all human. All of us make mistakes. NO human is without sin. Jesus came and washed away our sins and all we have to do is believe. I'm not sure why a belief in Christianity on my part suddenly makes me holier than thou. I'm not.

To piggyback that statement if I may. It opened my eyes to the realization that we are all sinners and we all make mistakes. And im not any better then anyone else. And its not my place to judge anyone. It is my place to help everyone.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'm don't believe every word of the Bible is factually correct, nor do I believe every atheist is just trying to 'help a brotha out' here on Christmas Eve. Tons of douchebaggery, missteps, and inaccuracies happen throughout the history of man. Today apparently is no different!

Glad you step in every 30 or so posts to say the exact same thing. You are so spiritual that on Christmas Eve you are so devoted to the Christian cause that you visit one of thousands of threads on an internet football message board to call those with a different viewpoint than yours douchebags.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I think you should follow your advice. John, Mathew, Peter, Mark were there with Jesus. They wrote the beginning of the new testament. Paul wrote about 3/4ths of the New Testament. While he wasnt around Jesus, he was struck blind by God. When he regained his sight he saw the light. And became the greatest missionary of all time. He taught the teachings of Jesus. He did not witness what Jesus did. Nor did he profess too.
The Old Testament was written by men whom God told the story too. But that is just the beginning. Moses was a real man, Isaac, Jacob were real. David is in other writings besides the Bible. So Im not sure where you got your information. A couple centuries after Jesus death, the Church at the time convened and decided what books should go into the Bible. And that is how the Bible was put together.

As far as the gods you are talking about, yes I do believe in them. There are lots of gods today. The god of money, for instance. How many people spend their lives chasing that god?
But there is only one true God. And he sent his Son to die for our sins. I dont think any of those other gods would do that.

So "eyewitness" accounts are now those who see ghosts while walking in the desert? Sorry, if you're trying to prove this from a historical/scientific persperctive, you shouldn't go with the guy who's only encounter with Jesus was when he was a ghost.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It's my observance that there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of devout muslims and orthodox jews who have had no problem sticking to the absolute letter of their religion for thousands upon thousands of years.

hehe...perhaps Muslims and Jews (or anybody) under a watchful eye. I remember sitting in a bar in Bahrain having a beer with some co-workers. It was filled with Saudi's drinking beer...which at first seemed odd to me as I suppose it would to you I'm realizing suddenly. Anyway, I say to one of them that can speak English, "Hey, aren't ya'll forbidden to drink beer?" and the Saudi says, "Aren't Americans forbidden to do drugs?" (Which missed my point about Islam, but strikes the right logic points, I suppose about the legality of things.)

We are all imperfect I suppose, which is always the point. It's pretty tough to base an argument that one religion in particular (in most cases, Christianity) is the only one true imperfect religion. Hell, the atheist manual says you have to be a complete fucking asshole on Christmas Eve to Catholics and Baptists. Yet, I know lots of classy atheists that don't abide by that. In any event, it's all a matter of perspective and what we individually believe in. There is no one-size-fits-all, and it shouldn't be part of any argument for or against here.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by panerd

Glad you step in every 30 or so posts to say the exact same thing. You are so spiritual that on Christmas Eve you are so devoted to the Christian cause that you visit one of thousands of threads on an internet football message board to call those with a different viewpoint than yours douchebags.

Fucking A. You never know when I am going to strike.

[ISiddiqui]

Nobody expects the Dutch Inquisition!!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Nobody expects the Dutch Inquisition!!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Again, because I break God's law - which I'm sure I do countless times a day - doesn't mean I'm not going to heaven. According to the Bible, we are to set aside one day a week for rest. If I don't do that (or can't do that), I will not be struck down. Certainly, it's a good call on my part to do my best to follow his instruction and if I am truly a believer I do my best to follow his Word.

But that goes against what the Bible says. You are the one saying that he gave us a manual but now saying that manual doesn't matter. I guess that's where I'm confused.

Originally Posted by CraigSca

The bottom line is - we are all human. All of us make mistakes. NO human is without sin. Jesus came and washed away our sins and all we have to do is believe. I'm not sure why a belief in Christianity on my part suddenly makes me holier than thou. I'm not.

So it doesn't matter what we do as long as we believe? So all the "be a good Christian" stuff is pointless since God doesn't mind if we sin as long as we believe. This is the part I'm trying to understand here.

I guess what I'm saying is that I consider eternal heaven/hell to be pretty huge consequences for our actions. And that if I truly believed in it and believed in the Bible, there is absolutely no way I would ever possibly risk spending eternity in hell by breaking those rules. We avoid breaking laws because we don't want to end up in jail for a period of time. So wouldn't the motivation be infinitely stronger to not break God's law if the punishment is eternity in hell?

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

As long as this thread is already inflammatory:

It's my observance that there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of devout muslims, hindus, orthodox jews, etc. who have had no problem sticking to the absolute letter of their religion for thousands upon thousands of years.

Lots of devout Christians will claim to follow the word of the bible to the letter, but put absolutely no more real effort than the unaffiliated towards following those tenants, and when pushed on specifics will then excuse themselves with some sort of shrug, essentially saying, "well, I'm kinda trying as much as everybody else, what do you expect?"

Why is that? I don't want to imply that either approach is right or wrong, 'cause I'm not in the position to say, but I find it interesting that some very strict religions have managed to stick to their scripts, even within the confines of modern American society, but American Christian churches seem to have been promoting and pushing a pretty lazy version of Christianity for at least the last hundred years. I tend to think that is the result of the decay of the American Christian church, rather than the American Christian individual, but where does one go, or what does one do if one wants to be a MORE devout Christian than what is deemed currently acceptable? Strict devout Christianity seems to be just as marginalized within the church, as it is without, and in most cases those claiming to be the most divine or devout are just as far removed from the word of the bible (in total).

Im not positive on an answer for you. But I will start with Free Will. God gave us all free will. This may or may not help.

Christianity is about loving your neighbor as you love yourself. I struggle with this every day. Sometimes I yell at my kids, or become impatient when the line at the store is too long. Sometimes I get on this forum and post stupid stuff. But I pray and ask for forgiveness and try and improve my life and other peoples lives everyday.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So "eyewitness" accounts are now those who see ghosts while walking in the desert? Sorry, if you're trying to prove this from a historical/scientific persperctive, you shouldn't go with the guy who's only encounter with Jesus was when he was a ghost.

John, Mathew, Mark, Peter didnt see a ghost. They stayed with Jesus. They followed and assisted Him. They learned from him. Those are the eyewitness accounts. I just mentioed Paul, because he was an incredible Christian man.

[Dutch]

So it doesn't matter what we do as long as we believe? So all the "be a good Christian" stuff is pointless since God doesn't mind if we sin as long as we believe. This is the part I'm trying to understand here.

Believe it or not, I've had this same conversation with Christians. (Obviously, when it comes to discussing religion, neither religious folks or atheist folks like me)

They told me if I didn't believe Jesus died for our sins that I wouldn't be accepted into heaven and that I need to 'right away'. I said, "When did you come to this conclusion?" And they gave some answer about when they were 25 or whatever...so I said, "Alright, I'll get to it when I get to it...but you can't tell me that you went 25 years and now are saved and I can't go 40 or 50 years and not be saved." I was then cursed as the devil or whatever.

Again, my belief's are mine and nobody, no man or woman, is going to change those. I don't like Christian missionaries and I don't like Atheist activists. They are all good folks meaning good things but the information they give me is total crap and garbage. Belief and non-belief is only true within yourself. If you are "convinced" to believe or not-believe by external forces, you are a fool.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by tarcone

John, Mathew, Mark, Peter didnt see a ghost. They stayed with Jesus. They followed and assisted Him. They learned from him. Those are the eyewitness accounts. I just mentioed Paul, because he was an incredible Christian man.

I think now he was talking about John Smith or whomever that was out in Utah.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But that goes against what the Bible says. You are the one saying that he gave us a manual but now saying that manual doesn't matter. I guess that's where I'm confused.


So it doesn't matter what we do as long as we believe? So all the "be a good Christian" stuff is pointless since God doesn't mind if we sin as long as we believe. This is the part I'm trying to understand here.

I guess what I'm saying is that I consider eternal heaven/hell to be pretty huge consequences for our actions. And that if I truly believed in it and believed in the Bible, there is absolutely no way I would ever possibly risk spending eternity in hell by breaking those rules. We avoid breaking laws because we don't want to end up in jail for a period of time. So wouldn't the motivation be infinitely stronger to not break God's law if the punishment is eternity in hell?

We live in a broken world. No one can live exactly how the Bible is written. Adam and Eve had a shot. And guess what? They sinned. The point is, we are all given salvation. God wants every one of us to go to Heaven. But we are humans. we mess up. God gave us his Son, so when we mess up, we still have an opportunity to be forgiven.

The Bible tries to tell us how to live a good life, a servants life. Reaching perfection is impossible for man. That is why God sent Jesus. Because we are not perfect and need our sins forgiven.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Believe it or not, I've had this same conversation with Christians. (Obviously, when it comes to discussing religion, neither religious folks or atheist folks like me)

They told me if I didn't believe Jesus died for our sins that I wouldn't be accepted into heaven and that I need to 'right away'. I said, "When did you come to this conclusion?" And they gave some answer about when they were 25 or whatever...so I said, "Alright, I'll get to it when I get to it...but you can't tell me that you went 25 years and now are saved and I can't go 40 or 50 years and not be saved." I was then cursed as the devil or whatever.

Again, my belief's are mine and nobody, no man or woman, is going to change those. I don't like Christian missionaries and I don't like Atheist activists. They are all good folks meaning good things but the information they give me is total crap and garbage. Belief and non-belief is only true within yourself. If you are "convinced" to believe or not-believe by external forces, you are a fool.

They were trying to help you save yourself. No one knows when they will die, or the world will end. They dont want you to get in your car today and get into a fiery crash and die without being saved. They were trying to help you. God gave you free will. You can accept the help or not. It is your decision.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I think now he was talking about John Smith or whomever that was out in Utah.

No, the guy who wrote a good portion of the New Testament only met Jesus on the road to Damascus in spirit form.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Christianity is about loving your neighbor as you love yourself.

Unless they are gay.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No, the guy who wrote a good portion of the New Testament only met Jesus on the road to Damascus in spirit form.

Correct. And the rest of the New Testament is about the teachings of Jesus. Not an eyewitness account of what happened to Him. Paul was a teacher of Christianity. Paul is trying to teach us how to live a better life. A Christian life.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hell, the atheist manual says you have to be a complete fucking asshole on Christmas Eve to Catholics and Baptists.

Shit! I knew I forgot to do something today!

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Rainmaker: Those are valid questions. But the Bible gives us countless eyewitness accounts of what Jesus did. Are eyewitness accounts valid? If not, then our judicial system is severely flawed because eyewitness accounts are a large part of it.

Actually no - the bible contains hearsay accounts of what Jesus did written many years after the fact.

Most modern court systems wouldn't accept such evidence as testimony for the same reason that some people are sceptical of the bible as literal fact (even bible study classes* I've attended have indicated that the 'form' of writing back then was to write as if you were present and to literally place words in the mouths of people, so what is literally in the bible may or may not have occurred as it is stated).

This of course doesn't mean that the bible is incorrect or that it isn't the word of God - just that the method of reporting utilized is today not seen as reliable enough to be used in courts.

*I'm not an active Christian as most of you are aware, however my wife is a very devout Christian and for that reason I've been to various bible studies and suchlike with her; I think understanding her viewpoint and being open to her beliefs if important in our marriage (I've even hoped I'd 'pick up the bug' from time to time, but it hasn't happened).

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by tarcone

600+ pages of insanity? Could you explain, please.

What's to explain? I presented a vague analogy so you could fill in the blanks. Who cares? The point is that what confuses me at times is how every single word in the bible (or any other scripture for that matter) has to be taken as concrete fact just because one or two things/people mentioned in the text might actually be recorded in history. Hell, even novels that are written now, by people with a better memory than anyone here, about stuff that happened five years ago, still have plenty of historical inaccuracies in them. What makes scripture so immune to fault?

On the flip side, why would you have strong faith in your respective religion, but only shape your beliefs around some of the stuff written in scripture? What makes the stuff that you agree with any less god-like than the stuff you don't believe in? If it is written, then it is written...right?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Unless they are gay.

Or a Jew. My Aunt has stories of kids beating her bloody and stripping her of her clothes because they wanted to see if "the Jew really has a tail."

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But that goes against what the Bible says. You are the one saying that he gave us a manual but now saying that manual doesn't matter. I guess that's where I'm confused.


So it doesn't matter what we do as long as we believe? So all the "be a good Christian" stuff is pointless since God doesn't mind if we sin as long as we believe. This is the part I'm trying to understand here.

I guess what I'm saying is that I consider eternal heaven/hell to be pretty huge consequences for our actions. And that if I truly believed in it and believed in the Bible, there is absolutely no way I would ever possibly risk spending eternity in hell by breaking those rules. We avoid breaking laws because we don't want to end up in jail for a period of time. So wouldn't the motivation be infinitely stronger to not break God's law if the punishment is eternity in hell?

The "be a good Christian stuff" is there because, as we walk with God, we become more like Him. That's the intent anyway. It doesn't mean it's not there to follow - it's a guide, and an infallible one. Again, humans by definition fail. It doesn't mean we don't strive to be everything we can.

If someone were professing to walk with God and then breaking his commandments left and right, I will begin to wonder and doubt his true beliefs. But then, I'm being a human again, because I'm not supposed to judge others (though, try to find someone who doesn't do that through their everyday "being human" - it's impossible).

Oh, and by the way, I am taught by Jesus to love everyone (gay or not - who cares). Yes, I am taught that homosexuality is a sin. However, that doesn't mean I don't love the person. All of us sin, right? Does that mean I don't love my mother, father, wife, son, daughter, etc.? I can't help that other Christians think differently, but I think Jesus' teachings are pretty much evident - love your neighbor, love Me.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

What makes scripture so immune to fault?

The general idea is that its basically 'inspired by God' and as such perfect.

That being said most Christians don't follow the bible blindly and interpret it, trying to take into account the differences between those times and today - this is why the warnings against not eating specific foods (because they didn't keep in those days) aren't followed today etc.

I'd love to see God update the bible for today - especially for my wife, there should definitely be a scripture along the lines of:

Thou does not need to update Facebook while you're driving the bloody car woman, keep your eyes on the road

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Shit! I knew I forgot to do something today!

You gotta customize your calendar, it doesn't come standard on any of the ones currently available.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Actually no - the bible contains hearsay accounts of what Jesus did written many years after the fact.

Most modern court systems wouldn't accept such evidence as testimony for the same reason that some people are sceptical of the bible as literal fact (even bible study classes* I've attended have indicated that the 'form' of writing back then was to write as if you were present and to literally place words in the mouths of people, so what is literally in the bible may or may not have occurred as it is stated).

This of course doesn't mean that the bible is incorrect or that it isn't the word of God - just that the method of reporting utilized is today not seen as reliable enough to be used in courts.

*I'm not an active Christian as most of you are aware, however my wife is a very devout Christian and for that reason I've been to various bible studies and suchlike with her; I think understanding her viewpoint and being open to her beliefs if important in our marriage (I've even hoped I'd 'pick up the bug' from time to time, but it hasn't happened).

The miracles performed by Jesus were witnessed. Did they go home and journal. No, they were to busy teaching the teachings of Jesus. But they witnessed his miracles.
If I write about something I witnessed 5 years ago, is it false?

I hope you continue with your wife. Read C.S. Lewis. The man is brilliant and writes some interesting books. I suggest Mere Christianity. This is a great book.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

What's to explain? I presented a vague analogy so you could fill in the blanks. Who cares? The point is that what confuses me at times is how every single word in the bible (or any other scripture for that matter) has to be taken as concrete fact just because one or two things/people mentioned in the text might actually be recorded in history. Hell, even novels that are written now, by people with a better memory than anyone here, about stuff that happened five years ago, still have plenty of historical inaccuracies in them. What makes scripture so immune to fault?

On the flip side, why would you have strong faith in your respective religion, but only shape your beliefs around some of the stuff written in scripture? What makes the stuff that you agree with any less god-like than the stuff you don't believe in? If it is written, then it is written...right?

Im not sure I can give you a great answer. But I will try and help.
Read the New Testament. It is Gospel. it is about love and forgiveness. In fact, Galatians 5:14 says "The entire law is summed in a single command, 'Love your neighbor as yourself'."
This is why the Jews hated Christ and Christians. They were not following the Law of the Old Testament. The Law of the Old Testament has its place in society as well, though.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

A couple things - God didn't kill Jesus - Jesus sacrificed himself voluntarily for us. According to the Bible the penalty of sin is death. Jesus put Himself in our spot - literally died for our sins so we don't have to.

Please explain the line that every Christians uses... "God sent his son to die for us." If god sent him to die it was already predetermined and Jesus was only a pawn in that play.

[tarcone]

Jesus was God. But Jesus was a man. And yes, he knew what was coming. But because he took the form of man, he suffered what a man would suffer. SO he sacrificed His son for us. Which was really God. Who wanted to defeat death. To show us that Heaven offers eternal life.

[tarcone]

Gentlemen, this has been fun and interesting and I hope I helped.
But I am getting ready to celebrate the birth of my Savior on a pagan holiday chosen by man a long time ago.

[DougW]

Interesting thread.

I choose to usually not try to wrap my head around religious discussions, because they really confuse me. This thread isn't different, so I'm left to ask this.

I'm reading :

~ Jesus died for us to offer forgiveness for our sins.
~ God gave us a "manual" to live our lives.
~ It's OK to disregard (even consciously choose to disregard) the "manual". (Because point 1 makes it OK.)
~ To receive God's ultimate future reward, it doesn't matter what someone does before (or even after) they accept Jesus, only that they have.

That's all very confusing to me. Seems to not really add up.

[MJ4H]

The idea is that a side-effect of actually accepting that Jesus is real and really did pay for your sins is that you will try to live the way He wants you to live since it is the right thing to do. You will do your best out of duty and honor, not forced obligation.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The miracles performed by Jesus were witnessed. Did they go home and journal. No, they were to busy teaching the teachings of Jesus. But they witnessed his miracles.
If I write about something I witnessed 5 years ago, is it false?

The earliest recorded gospel scholars estimate is written approximately 30 years after the events it records - thats a fair bit after the event, plus most of the gospels are definitely not written by the people they're purported to be 'from'.

There's a reasonable section describing the dating for the gospels here; please note it gives several 'answers' as there isn't one clear agreed one -

Answers.com - When were the gospels written

As I mentioned before however this doesn't mean they're not accurate - just that they were written from hearsay rather than first hand accounts.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Please explain the line that every Christians uses... "God sent his son to die for us." If god sent him to die it was already predetermined and Jesus was only a pawn in that play.

Pre-destination is one of those thorny subjects in the area of God - if you accept God is omnipotent then he also can't grant his creations 'free-will' because that would mean he doesn't know what will occur.

However it could be argued that he chooses not to apply his omnipotence in the area of humanity - and possibly even Jesus when he was around.

Think of it like God is a programmer, when you write a computer program you could determined EXACTLY what will occur within it ... however if its a complex program it'd take a lot of time and effort to do so. With a game like FM it'd take me months, possibly years to determine what might occur during a short run of the game ....

As such can I exert full control over the program and determine its course ultimately before it begins - however I'm a lazy programmer and its blooming unlikely I'd do so.

(so - yes in essence I view God as a lazy programmer )

If you want to get down to the nitty gritty of it you can prove predestination if you're into 'Physics' whether you're an aetheist or religious - if you accept that everything is controlled by the laws of science then you'll also likely accept that the human brain is controlled and governed by electrical impulses ... these in turn are controlled by the laws of science, so in theory if more was known about the brain and what triggered what all actions and reactions would be logical within a human. As such we're predetermined by the laws of science ... just we don't see it that way outselves - when we make a decision we believe its 'ours' but its ultimately a chemical/electrical reaction with a logical cause and effect, thats why drugs affect us etc.

(I'm kinda chilled about the whole idea of pre-destination myself - but it does kinda freak my wife out for some reason,not sure why - my personal take is that it doesn't matter ... if it feels like I've got freewill then thats good enough for me, its like playing a console game - if it doesn't feel like you're being steered down a story line then you enjoy it more, lifes like that- it might be predestined but the author was creative enough to hide the fact from me - I'd give life a 10/10 review ).

Right its Christmas eve and I've got some Irish Cream calling my name .... have a Merry Christmas one and all

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The miracles performed by Jesus were witnessed. Did they go home and journal. No, they were to busy teaching the teachings of Jesus. But they witnessed his miracles.
If I write about something I witnessed 5 years ago, is it false?

Without weighing in on the larger debate here, as a psychologist I feel obligated to point out that there's a good chance your memory for such events would be pretty lousy. Over the last few decades research has found that memory is far more malleable than most of us care to think. I would recommend reading Elizabeth Loftus' work on false memories and the ease with which details of memories can be modified. (Elizabeth Loftus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[tarcone]

If I saw a man raised from the dead, Im thinking I would remember it.

[tarcone]

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

kristian holliday would totally be my wrestling name. i'd be all-

and i'm gonna send the undertaker...

BACK. TO. HELL.

cuz nobody works on a...

KRISTIAN HOLLIDAY!!!

{pyro} BOOOOOSHHHHH {teknics}

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

You might like Karl Rahner's Anonymous Christianity. Here is a quote taken from wiki:

Anonymous Christianity means that a person lives in the grace of God and attains salvation outside of explicitly constituted Christianity — Let us say, a Buddhist monk — who, because he follows his conscience, attains salvation and lives in the grace of God; of him I must say that he is an anonymous Christian; if not, I would have to presuppose that there is a genuine path to salvation that really attains that goal, but that simply has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. But I cannot do that. And so, if I hold if everyone depends upon Jesus Christ for salvation, and if at the same time I hold that many live in the world who have not expressly recognized Jesus Christ, then there remains in my opinion nothing else but to take up this postulate of an anonymous Christianity.[4]

According to Rahner, a person could explicitly deny Christianity, but in reality "existentially is committed to those values which for the Christian are concretized in God."[1]

This is interesting from a theoretical sense, because i suppose that's where I'd fall in that person's view of things...

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I think you should follow your advice. John, Mathew, Peter, Mark were there with Jesus. They wrote the beginning of the new testament. Paul wrote about 3/4ths of the New Testament. While he wasnt around Jesus, he was struck blind by God. When he regained his sight he saw the light. And became the greatest missionary of all time. He taught the teachings of Jesus. He did not witness what Jesus did. Nor did he profess too.
The Old Testament was written by men whom God told the story too. But that is just the beginning. Moses was a real man, Isaac, Jacob were real. David is in other writings besides the Bible. So Im not sure where you got your information. A couple centuries after Jesus death, the Church at the time convened and decided what books should go into the Bible. And that is how the Bible was put together.

As far as the gods you are talking about, yes I do believe in them. There are lots of gods today. The god of money, for instance. How many people spend their lives chasing that god?
But there is only one true God. And he sent his Son to die for our sins. I dont think any of those other gods would do that.

Really?

Without even spending a lot of time on it:

The Gospel's authorship is anonymous. Its Chapter 21 states it derives from the testimony of the 'disciple whom Jesus loved.' Along with Peter, the unnamed disciple is especially close to Jesus, and early-church tradition identified him as John the Apostle, one of Jesus' Twelve Apostles. The gospel is closely related in style and content to the three surviving Epistles of John such that commentators treat the four books together.^[2] According to the majority of modern scholars, John was not the author of any of these books,^[3] though many scholars plead ignorance in the case of this gospel.^[4]
Raymond E. Brown did pioneering work to trace the development of the tradition from which the gospel arose.^[5] The discourses seem to be concerned with the actual issues of the church-and-synagogue debate at the time when the Gospel was written^[6]c. AD 90.

Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed in the latter part of the first century by a Jewish Christian.^[7] Early Christian writings state that Matthew the Apostle wrote the Hebrew Gospel.^[8][9][10] Modern scholars believe that the canonical Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Greek by a non eyewitness, whose name is unknown to us. This redactor depended on sources like Mark and Q",^[11][12][13] a position known as Markan priority. However, scholars such as Craig Blomberg, disagree variously on these points and believe Matthew did write the gospel.

All four canonical gospels are anonymous, but Early ChristianMark the Evangelist, who is said to have based the work on the testimony of Saint Peter.^[4][5] while others doubt it.^[6] tradition identifies this gospel's author as Some modern scholars consider the traditional authorship account to be essentially credible, Even scholars who doubt Mark's authorship acknowledge that much of the material in Mark goes back a long way and represents important information about Jesus.^[7] The Gospel of Mark is the primary source of information about the ministry of Jesus.^[8]

Most modern critical scholarship concludes that Luke used the Gospel of Mark for his chronology and a hypothetical sayings source Q document for many of Jesus' teachings. Luke may also have drawn from independent written records.^[9] Traditional Christian scholarship has dated the composition of the gospel to the early 60s,^[10][11] while higher criticism dates it to the later decades of the 1st century.^[12][13] While the traditional view that Paul's companion Luke authored the gospel is still often put forward, a number of possible contradictions between Acts and Paul's letter lead some scholars to dispute this account.^[14][15] According to Raymond E. Brown, it is not impossible that Luke was the author.^[16] According to the majority view, the author is unknown.^[6]


That took me all of 5 minutes on Wikipedia - not even going to get into a discussion of the merits of the various scholars in the dispute and which are more credible than others.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Or a Jew. My Aunt has stories of kids beating her bloody and stripping her of her clothes because they wanted to see if "the Jew really has a tail."

does she??!?!!?

*ducks*

[Sun Tzu]

[Dutch]

I'm a huge fan of early new-world explorers like Columbus, Magellan, and Cortes and this time period in general.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Nobody expects the Dutch Inquisition!!

Anyway, this made me lol this morning while opening Christmas presents. My wife bought me a book I'd never heard of, "Dogs of God: Columbus, the Inquisition, and the Defeat of the Moors" by James Reston. How funny is that?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

If I saw a man raised from the dead, Im thinking I would remember it.

If I saw a man carve out the Grand Canyon, I'm thinking I would remember it.

[Marmel]

C'mon, everyone knows Jews don't have tails.

They have horns.

[lordscarlet]

In to the belly of the beast I go!

[ISiddiqui]

This teaches me that I shouldn't write a lengthy thoughtful time consuming post that's going to end up as the last post of a page...

Alas, just remember there are liberal evangelicals (as opposed to "Liberal Christians", some of who don't believe Jesus did any miracles at all) out there as well.