POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You have to make that statement because you chose a shit candidate that people don't like and need excuses for why they will lose. Same take you all had with Hillary 8 years ago. It was Russia or Jill Stein or whatever excuse was trendy that day. Anything but admitting you anointed a bad candidate.

And you folks say Trump supporters are a cult. Projection at its finest.

I cant speak for anyone else but I did not vote for Biden in the primaries nor give him any financial support. Ive been an independant most of my life and have voted non democrat prior to trump.

The reality is this next election is Trump and Biden and those are the two choices. Im voting Biden 100% with this being the choice and consider any non biden Vote a support that the person is fine with Trump being president again.

[RainMaker]

I think it's a silly perspective to assume a candidate is owed everyone's vote. This isn't feudalism. It's a silly excuse for fielding a bad candidate (just like Russia, Jill Stein, etc). I get why people do it. It absolves them and the party they support of any responsibility.

I don't have a problem with people voting for Biden (people should vote for who they feel has earned it). Especially those in a swing state. I can't under good conscience vote for a racist genocider, even if his opponent is worse. And I'm not going to fault an Arab person in Michigan for skipping the election when their families are being slaughtered. Or a student who is being called a terrorist, beaten, and having their rights stripped for criticizing an openly fascist government in Israel. At some point they've made it clear they don't value you as a citizen or your vote.

And I normally adhere to the lesser of two evils approach. I voted Biden in 2020 despite his long political record of being wrong on just about everything. But there's also a point where the evils are too much. You're just encouraging the lesser evil to continue to be more evil if you give them unconditional support. Biden has made a far-right shift over the past year and has taken on a lot of the same characteristics of Trump.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Biden has made a far-right shift over the past year and has taken on a lot of the same characteristics of Trump.

I was literally just about to post, in response to a previous comment, that I think we have less of a shitty candidate issue in this country and more of a shitty electorate problem, and then I saw this at the top of the page.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I was literally just about to post, in response to a previous comment, that I think we have less of a shitty candidate issue in this country and more of a shitty electorate problem, and then I saw this at the top of the page.

Biden literally just offered up Trump's immigration plan. He did this so he could get money for wars that every neocon supports (in fairness, Biden was a neocon most of his life). He has come out against protesters and supports the violent suppression of them (just like Trump). He supports the balkanization of the internet and banning sites that disagree with him politically (just like Trump). And he'll sign the new antisemitism bill that criminalizes speech on campuses (just like Trump wanted to).

Now Biden campaigned against doing all these things. But that has changed of late and he's actually been more successful at passing Trump's policies than Trump was.

But orange man bad or whatever. You're definitely not acting like the Trump supporters you claimed were in a cult.

[BYU 14]

Don't pull a muscle stretching, but where in this quote do you see violent suppression of protests? BTW, he also indicated he would not mobilize the National Guard, where Trump wanted to deploy regular military.

"We've all seen images, and they put to the test two fundamental American principles," Biden said from the Roosevelt Room. "The first is the right to free speech and for people to peacefully assemble and make their voices heard. The second is the rule of law. Both must be upheld."

[RainMaker]

Have you turned on the news in the past week? There's thousands of videos of protests being violently suppressed.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And I'm not going to fault an Arab person in Michigan for skipping the election when their families are being slaughtered. .

And when it is even worse under Trump and they are deported or in concentration camps they will have no reason to complain.

again, this is not speculation, these are words from his mouth

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

And when it is even worse under Trump and they are deported or in concentration camps they will have no reason to complain.

again, this is not speculation, these are words from his mouth

Not sure it gets worse than genocide man.

[RainMaker]

Are the camps like these or different?

https://time.com/6550047/joe-biden-i...ivate-prisons/

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Have you turned on the news in the past week? There's thousands of videos of protests being violently suppressed.

You're thisclose to calling them patriots, I think. Who's the Trump clone?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

You're thisclose to calling them patriots, I think. Who's the Trump clone?

Don't worry, you'll be on their side in 5 years (actually less if Trump wins) pretending you supported it the whole time. Just like all liberals, always a few years behind the college protests. See civil rights movement, apartheid, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.

[RainMaker]

Kind of like how 4 years ago you were against the President banning a social media company but now you seem fine with it. That D next to the name gives a whole new perspective I guess.

[miked]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Have you turned on the news in the past week? There's thousands of videos of protests being violently suppressed.

You must have missed the last 2 decades where rockets get fired every day and the other side tries to ethnically cleanse from the river to the sea. You're blinders are astounding, as if this is something that just started and only one side wants an "ethnostate". If there was a ceasefire tomorrow, it would be about 2 weeks until there were more rocket attacks or suicide bombers.

How do you negotiate when neither side wants peace?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

You must have missed the last 2 decades where rockets get fired every day and the other side tries to ethnically cleanse from the river to the sea. You're blinders are astounding, as if this is something that just started and only one side wants an "ethnostate". If there was a ceasefire tomorrow, it would be about 2 weeks until there were more rocket attacks or suicide bombers.

How do you negotiate when neither side wants peace?

We are giving billions to one side. Not to mention censoring the internet, restricting rights, and ignoring the execution of our citizens for that side. That's the issue.

Also take a look at the death and inured tolls over the past 80 years. To call this equal is ignorant.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't worry, you'll be on their side in 5 years (actually less if Trump wins) pretending you supported it the whole time. Just like all liberals, always a few years behind the college protests. See civil rights movement, apartheid, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.

Ha! Dude 2020 was the first time I ever voted for a Democrat in a national election.

[SirFozzie]

I'm sorry, RainMaker, on the balance of things, I'm looking at the ones who started this by massacring over 1,000 Israelis on October 7th. I'm firmly of the opinion that by committing the atrocities they have and then hiding amongst the Palestinian population, they have mostly brought this down upon themselves.

I do pray that the ceasefire happens and innocents (on both sides) are saved from the horrors of war, but let's not forget that Hamas have been the ones to reject a cease-fire multiple times.

[RainMaker]

Your support of Biden makes sense then. He's basically a Bush era Republican.

[SirFozzie]

You're calling me a Bush-era Republican? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Thanks, I needed a laugh today.

edit: To be more constructive: I come from one of the most liberal states in the USA (MA). I am firmly on the center-left in political views. (I'm pretty sure that some folks here think I am wildly leftist, from past discussions). I do think the Palestinians have the right for a two-state solution, and that one of the key things that needs to happen for a lasting peace is that isreali settlers need to be moved back far and told "Cut that shit out". (for example, with the recent attempts to disrupt/attack aid convoys).

The current cease-fire deal would free many Palestinians, allow them back into North Gaza (which had been a sticking point), and only required the release of 33 Israeli hostages. That would be the first step to peace, but Hamas has rejected it. They're the ones extending the fighting.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I'm sorry, RainMaker, on the balance of things, I'm looking at the ones who started this by massacring over 1,000 Israelis on October 7th. I'm firmly of the opinion that by committing the atrocities they have and then hiding amongst the Palestinian population, they have mostly brought this down upon themselves.

I do pray that the ceasefire happens and innocents (on both sides) are saved from the horrors of war, but let's not forget that Hamas have been the ones to reject a cease-fire multiple times.

Israel has been massacring Palestinians and stealing their land for decades. This didn't start on October 7th.

But hey, I'm opposed to giving Hamas billions too if it helps. I would also support cutting ties with governments that fund Hamas unlike Biden.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

You're calling me a Bush-era Republican? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Thanks, I needed a laugh today.

Not you, Ksyrup. He said 2020 was the first time he voted Democrat in a national election. If you were a Republican 10-20 years ago, Biden is your guy. Not even being snarky, it makes sense.

[SirFozzie]

Ah, ok. I apologize for laughing then.

My 2nd point does stand: For peace to break out, Hamas's views needs to be out of the picture (namely, that Israel doesn't have a right to exist and protect itself). And sad to say, the Palestinians seem to have welded themselves to Hamas's views.

It will be the work of generations to undo what current generations are doing (again, on both sides). The only thing I can compare it to (in my admittedly, limited world view) is The Troubles in Northern Ireland. BOTH sides need to stop fighting, but for both sides to stop fighting, both sides have to want to stop fighting.. and I just don't see that.

[SirFozzie]

(possible dola): In the interest of fairness, I will also say this, for peace to break out, Netanyahu (and his reliance on ultra-orthodox Jews to avoid prosecution/and being turfed out of government) needs to go too.

edit: and this is only tangentially related to both I/P and the election, but I love MTG's press conference saying that she won't vote for the antisemitism bill, because it stifles the view that the "Jews killed Christ"

I mean, it couldn't be more plain that "I don't want to vote for the antisemitism bill, because I want to express anti-Semite views"


"Antisemitism is wrong, but I will not be voting for the Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023 (H.R. 6090) today that could convict Christians of antisemitism for believing the Gospel that Jesus was handed over to Herod to be crucified by the Jews," Greene wrote in a post on X, formerly known as Twitter.

[RainMaker]

In fairness, it's an insane bill and she is kind of right that it would disallow parts of the Bible from being quoted. It's less of an antisemitism bill and more of an anti-zionist bill. They're trying to equate criticism of a sovereign country to that of a religion.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ah, ok. I apologize for laughing then.

My 2nd point does stand: For peace to break out, Hamas's views needs to be out of the picture (namely, that Israel doesn't have a right to exist and protect itself). And sad to say, the Palestinians seem to have welded themselves to Hamas's views.

It will be the work of generations to undo what current generations are doing (again, on both sides). The only thing I can compare it to (in my admittedly, limited world view) is The Troubles in Northern Ireland. BOTH sides need to stop fighting, but for both sides to stop fighting, both sides have to want to stop fighting.. and I just don't see that.

The problem is that neither side wants Hamas out of the picture. Israel supported them for years because it allowed them to avoid a 2 state solution. America likes them because it allows for endless supply of weapon sales and gives a justification for genocide.

You also have Netanyahu who goes to jail when this is over. Peace for him means prison.

And genocide doesn't solve the problem with resistance groups. It just creates more. Stomping out the ghetto uprisings didn't stop resistance to the Nazis.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

(I'm pretty sure that some folks here think I am wildly leftist, from past discussions).

I can confirm that.

(please read in light hearted tone as intended)

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

You're this close to calling them patriots, I think. Who's the Trump clone?

The coverage on these protest have become much like the George Floyd protest. One side showing police attacking peaceful protesters and highlighting the suppression of lawful protests (which is clearly wrong), and the other side highlighting the protests that have targeted Jewish students, preventing them from going to classes or getting to their dorms, violent fights breaking out between protesters and counter-protesters, and protestors breaking into building and damaging property.

What is not being seeing is many of the protests have neither thing going on. There are peaceful protests happening that have not had any kind of police interference. There have even been some that have even ended as the students and the college have negotiated settlements.

People have every right to peaceful protests, but just saying "I'm protesting" doesn't give you a right to damage property, or stop students from going to their classes. I often wonder how many people support protesters breaking into damaging property "as protests" would be fine with those protesters breaking into their house and destroying their property? "How can you be mad that I destroyed your car when there are children dying?" "You may not have a place to live now, but neither do the Palestians!"
Shitty behavior is shitty behavior even when you try to excuse it with a good cause.

[Edward64]

You're right, it's hard to understand the extent of the "violence". I've got no problems with police dragging protestors away once they've been told to disperse (several times).

But I do agree that if the protests are peaceful and not in the way of/threaten other students, they should be allowed to continue. I don't know how schools make a decision to not hold finals, but that indicates there is enough disruption/concern.

More detailed post-mortem needed, but my impression is is Columbia has been too patient, and UT was too quick.

Take it FWIW.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ent-rcna150340

New York City officials said that a significant number of people arrested this week at campus demonstrations were not affiliated with the schools. Nearly 30% of the people arrested at Columbia were unaffiliated with the university and 60% of the arrests at City College involved people who weren't affiliated with that school, the mayor said.

[Ksyrup]

I did get a kick out of the college student who demanded police provide protestors with food, saying they deserved "basic humanitarian aid." You couldn't come up with a more cliche example of an out of touch young liberal "revolutionary" than that.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Have you turned on the news in the past week? There's thousands of videos of protests being violently suppressed.

What does Biden have to do with local Police departments?

And bottom line, protest anything you want by all means, but when you cross the line and destroy things, initiate violence and takeover buildings disrupting the lives of others. Then, resist efforts to remove you, all bets are off. And that applies to these protests, it applies to the January 6th insurrection and it applies to BLM riots.

People are far too comfortable creating Chaos with no ramifications, so yeah, I am okay with protest, I am not okay with idiots who use it as an opportunity to create mayhem.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I did get a kick out of the college student who demanded police provide protestors with food, saying they deserved "basic humanitarian aid." You couldn't come up with a more cliche example of an out of touch young liberal "revolutionary" than that.

Its nuts how the political extremes in this country have no grasp of reality, they only know they should be angry all the time, or trying to destroy others rights. The saddest part is far left and far right come no where close to representing the majority of America. And I fear that will change down the road as the media flaunts extremists, pushing people to one side or the other. Until we gat to the point, where moderates are the minority.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Trump won't have 60 votes in the Senate to create a national ban either. And he can encourage red states to impose draconian laws as President or a private citizen. He has no legal power.

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter lack of understanding of how our government works, this time the Executive Branch.

[albionmoonlight]

Just saw someone on facebook argue that if Trump is found guilty then they will be able to prosecute Clinton for the Paula Jones affair.

We really all do live in our own separate bubbles these days.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

What does Biden have to do with local Police departments?

And bottom line, protest anything you want by all means, but when you cross the line and destroy things, initiate violence and takeover buildings disrupting the lives of others. Then, resist efforts to remove you, all bets are off. And that applies to these protests, it applies to the January 6th insurrection and it applies to BLM riots.

People are far too comfortable creating Chaos with no ramifications, so yeah, I am okay with protest, I am not okay with idiots who use it as an opportunity to create mayhem.

Unless you bring an AR15 into an elementary school. Then cops sit in the parking lot like pussies. For anyone living in a city, they know the police response is insane. You can't even get a single cop to show up within 10 hours to take a report if you got mugged, but trespassing on a lawn at a college? Send in the SWAT team.

I haven't seen much chaos in the videos outside of when cops are involved or pro-genocide supporters counterprotest.. Mostly just college kids sitting on a lawn chanting. But some large donors and politicians don't like their policies being made to look bad. Same thing happened on campuses during the Civil rights era, Vietnam, apartheid South Africa, and Iraq. Like I said, most people here will pretend they were on that side in 10 years just like with those causes.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

What does Biden have to do with local Police departments?

Also Biden literally campaigned on this. He ran ads with protesters being arrested and beaten saying this would not happen under a Biden Presidency. So he seemed to think he had that power.

And you have to admit it was kind of funny that flere made a post last week about portesters being beaten under Trump and how we will go back to that if Trump is elected a few days before this. His timing was impeccable.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Once again you demonstrate your complete and utter lack of understanding of how our government works, this time the Executive Branch.

Explain it. Been told for 4 years Biden is powerless to do anything. Do the rules change in 2025 or is it just party specific?

[RainMaker]

Anyway, the hysteria over college kids setting up tents was a convenient distraction from the UN reporting on mass graves last week. Or this one showing our tax dollars at work.

Nearly All 600,000 Kids in Rafah 'Injured, Sick, Malnourished,' Says UNICEF | Common Dreams

[RainMaker]

I think the dog killing takes her off any VP list but this is an insane doubling down on killing your dog.

Don’t believe the #fakenews media’s twisted spin. I had a choice between the safety of my children and an animal who had a history of attacking people & killing livestock.

I chose my kids. pic.twitter.com/ZTtN7MpQvf

— Kristi Noem (@KristiNoem) May 2, 2024

[Lathum]

It's the MAGA playbook. Lie enough and the cultist will eventually believe it.

[cartman]

More Trump Diapers At Pennsylvania Rally

[JPhillips]

Seen on twitter:

“You weep for Cricket, and you curse the gravel pit. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that Cricket’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives…”

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Explain it.

Multiple people in multiple threads have explained it again and again. You don't want a constructive discussion, you want to be a demagogue.

[GrantDawg]

Once again, the Biden justice department using their power to punish their enemies....oh, wait. It is another Democrat. Of course, he will probably refuse to resign and change parties into the welcoming arms of the Republicans now.

FLASH: Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX) & his wife have been indicted

Justice Dept alleges they accepted at least $598,000 in bribes from two foreign entities:

1) oil & gas company wholly owned & controlled by Government of Azerbaijan

2) a bank headquartered in Mexico City"

— Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) May 3, 2024

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Once again, the Biden justice department using their power to punish their enemies....oh, wait. It is another Democrat. Of course, he will probably refuse to resign and change parties into the welcoming arms of the Republicans now.

FLASH: Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX) & his wife have been indicted

Justice Dept alleges they accepted at least $598,000 in bribes from two foreign entities:

1) oil & gas company wholly owned & controlled by Government of Azerbaijan

2) a bank headquartered in Mexico City"

— Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) May 3, 2024

If I remember correctly, the DCCC rushed to Cuellar's aid when he was almost primaried by a more progressive candidate. Just an insane prioritization of money.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

If I remember correctly, the DCCC rushed to Cuellar's aid when he was almost primaried by a more progressive candidate. Just an insane prioritization of money.

Also insane because Cuellar is strongly anti-abortion and the Dems were trying to run on Dobbs. Kind of gave the game away.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Seen on twitter:

Is there a photo of this dog somewhere? She's making it seem like the beast from Ghostbusters.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is there a photo of this dog somewhere? She's making it seem like the beast from Ghostbusters.

Her Dog was 14 months old, so still in puppy years, bottom line is she is a shitty dog owner who was too fucking lazy to put the time in to train him correctly.

[Atocep]

This book was the worst decision she's ever made.

"As a congresswoman and governor, I've met with Chinese president Xi Jingping, the king and princes of Saudi Arabia, North Korean president Kim Jong Un, the king of Jordan, South Korean president Lee Myung-bak, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, UK prime minister Boris Johnson, Egyptian president Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, and many more," Noem writes in her book.

"Through my tenure on the House Armed Services Committee, I had the chance to travel to many countries to meet with world leaders -- some who wanted our help, and some who didn't. I remember when I met with North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un. I'm sure he underestimated me, having no clue about my experience staring down little tyrants (I'd been a children's pastor, after all)," Noem continued.

Now, her team is trying to clean up that misleading story, suggesting, "Kim Jong Un was included in a list of world leaders and shouldn't have been," Noem's spokesman Ian Fury said in a statement to ABC News. The statement doesn't underscore why the South Dakota governor elaborated on the purported meeting with Kim.

[Ksyrup]

I'll tell you why, one of two answers is undoubtedly correct - because it probably happened when she went along with Trump to meet him, but it went 180 degrees as she characterized it, or it didn't happen at all and she's just trying to act Trumpian, claiming to be a badass in a hypothetical showdown no one can dispute because it never happened.

[RainMaker]

So they are blaming the ghostwriter. Why not say the ghostwriter got the dog story wrong too?????? The dog story is way worse for her VP chances.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews...orth-109911302

[BYU 14]

How do people continue to fall for that? Pretty sure a book of that consequence, for lack of better words would have been thoroughly proofed and vetted by her team. But of course people will believe her and blame the radical left Ghost Writer for making it up.