Classic TV Sitcoms - Mount Rushmost - Construction Completed

[Umbrella]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I've never seen an episode of Shandling, so I don't have a sense for whether it's a serious contender.

You need to rectify this.

It's Garry Shandling's Show - Season1_Episode9_1of2 from Garry Shandling on Vimeo.

[stevew]

Wish I could include-
The Cosby Show (1984-1992), 4.52b, 8, 202, 30.5m


My 7
Who's the Boss (1984-1992), 3.09b, 8, 196, 19.2m
Family Ties (1982-1989), 2.94b, 7, 168, 28.6m
The Facts of Life (1979-1988), 2.66b, 9, 209, 15.4m
Diff'rent Strokes (1978-1986), 2.47b, 8, 189, 16.5
Head of the Class (1986-1991), 1.63b, 5, 114, 15.5m
Perfect Strangers (1986-1993), 1.62b, 8, 150, NA
Valerie/The Hogan Family (1986-1991), 1.43b, 6, 110, 15.5m

Honorable mention
Growing Pains (1985-1992), 2.59b, 7, 166, 19.8m
Mr. Belvedere (1985-1990), 1.32b, 6, 117, NA
My Two Dads (1987-1990), 0.98b, 3, 80, 14.9m

Also where are A Different World and Punky Brewster? I'd probably go for either of those.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Umbrella

You need to rectify this.

If this were solely an exercise in assessing quality, I'd take a look at a couple of episodes. I'd probably like it from what I've read.

We have to determine for ourselves what we want to see on a Mount Rushmore. That's why I include an estimate of "impressions," measuring how many people saw the original show. Generously, I'd say it had a little more than half of My Sister Sam's when you include the Fox run.

It's tough balancing popularity, quality, impact, innovation and importance in making these assessments. I just don't think Shandling had enough views to consider including.

The Brady Bunch overcame that lack of views in reruns, and probably scores very high in impact and importance even though it wasn't all that high in quality, either. These things are hard to measure, which is why I thought this would be an interesting exercise in the first place.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by stevew

Also where are A Different World and Punky Brewster? I'd probably go for either of those.

A Different World qualifies as a '90s show. Punky Brewster had only 88 episodes and never reached the top 30, so I didn't nominate it. It was an '80s sitcom, so you could nominate it and votes would be counted.

[albionmoonlight]

For me, it wasn't just quality with It's Garry Shandling's Show. It was the way in which it had quality. Maybe I'm off base with its impact, but I don't see Arrested Development existing in the same way without Shandling.

(Of course Arrested Development also had low viewership, which is a bit of a point against my argument).

[Umbrella]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I just don't think Shandling had enough views to consider including.

I agree, which is why I'll be surprised if it makes it. But I don't know anyone who ever saw it that didn't think it was hilarious, and very intelligent. Kind of like the Velvet Underground saying. Only 1000 people bought their albums, but they all started a band.

For my picks, there are four no-brainers, and then it gets tough.

No-Brainers
Cheers - Would probably make any sitcom Mount Rushmore, regardless of era. One of the few shows that lost a major character and didn't degrade in quality, and this happened twice!

The Cosby Show - Even with his current troubles, I had to include it, as this show was must see TV at the time. The first few seasons were terrific, but then it too much into trying to make social messages. Kind of ironic now.

It's Garry Shandling's Show - One of my favorite shows of all time. Maybe the brilliant writing on any sitcom ever. I could totally binge watch the entire series. I don't think I could pick a favorite episode, since they were all great.

WKRP in Cincinnati - When this show was on, it was hysterical. As everyone mentions, the Thanksgiving show is probably one of the funniest half hours ever, with the great payoff.

Tough Decisions
Three's Company - I watched this show religiously as a pre-teen. However, I don't know how it would hold up today. Mork and Mindy - Another show I never missed. The writing wasn't great, but it was Robin Williams at his coke-filled peak.

Golden Girls - I put this one on here more as a cultural thing. It wasn't my favorite, but the acting was really good.

Newhart - Leaving The Bob Newhart Show off of the 70's list was my toughest cut. I would almost feel guilty doing it again...

Taxi - I loved this show, but seeing all the comments about how dated it is makes me question my judgement. I haven't seen it in ages.

Night Court - For some reason, I didn't watch this show much, but when I did, it was really good. I had just joined the military during its run, so I wasn't watching much TV.

Facts of Life - I watched this a lot, but it was mostly because I had a crush on both Jo and Blaire. Another show that could get a bit preachy at times.

So my final 3 inclusions are:
Newhart
Three's Company
Mork and Mindy

Three other shows that don't meet Solecismic's requirements, but I feel deserve mention.

SCTV - I'm not sure how to categorize this show. It wasn't really a sitcom, but it was about making you laugh. I guess it could be considered sketch comedy, but all the sketches were tied together. Plus, it was 90 minutes long. But still a very funny show, and gave starts to a ton of comedic actors.

Police Squad! - Nowhere near enough episodes, but every single one was great. Considering it only ran 6 episodes, it still received two emmy nominations. If it ran today, it would be a hit, but it was too smart for 80's audiences, who wanted simpler comedy.

Moonlighting - Not a sitcom, but too funny for a drama. Another brilliantly written show. Really fell off after David and Maddie became romantically involved.

[cuervo72]

Oh snap - I forgot about Sledge Hammer!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Shandling's show -- which I wasn't particularly fond of tbh -- is kind of an interesting case AND one that maybe highlights how TV has changed.

It aired first run on Showtime from '86 to '89. I found an old LA Times article from 1991 that had the following reference point

Through the end of 1989, Showtime Networks, Inc.--Showtime and The Movie Channel--gained 7.8% over the previous year, for a total of 10.4 million subscribers.

That means that even if every single person in the U.S. that had Showtime in their home in 1989 had watched Shandling's show it still wouldn't have been enough for it to even crack the top 50 in audience.

Now things get a little more muddled when you throw in the Fox repeats of the episodes as part of their Sunday night lineup in March 88 - March 90. But the show doesn't seem to have cracked the Top 50 for them either (kind of naturally since a lot of the likely audience for it had already seen the show on Showtime).

For some perspective about that benchmark, how many of you remember the Cloris Leachman/Harvey Korman sitcom Nutt House? It was tied for #44 in 1989.

For however brilliant Shandling's show may strike people, at the time or in hindsight, in terms of audience impact & penetration it bears a strong similarity to a tree that falls in an empty forest.

[Izulde]

No particular order:

1. Alf - Yeah, I'm going to be that guy. Alf is still one of my favorite shows/characters ever. I read all the comic books, watched the cartoon, had an Alf lunchbox, an Alf plush. Yeah. I *still* laugh at it.

2. Golden Girls - Probably the show that holds up the best, for my money.

3. Cheers - I started watching this from the beginning about a year ago. Didn't really do much for me. On here strictly because of its cultural impact.

4. Family Ties - It was a premise that worked really, really well. I watched it a ton as a kid, and when I did the same thing I did with Cheers, it still held up.

5. The Cosby Show - I know everything with Cosby makes it a little odd in retrospect, but it's still worthy of inclusion for all the reasons people mentioned.

6. The Facts of Life - Yeah, I just really enjoyed this show. No idea if it would hold up for me, but probably.

7. Night Court - I don't really remember any episodes, and it wasn't a fave then, but my gut says I'd really enjoy it now, so I'm throwing it in.

[kcchief19]

Yeah, technically under Jim's guidelines, I don't think it would qualify for our discussion. Even generously adding its Showtime viewership, it wouldn't be a Nielsen top 30 show at anytime and only hit 72 episodes.

That said, I think it was much more inventive and influential than most of the shows we're discussing. I think every comedian and sitcom writer working today probably watched the show.

The show was a one-man force of nature. Shandling was brilliant.

[CrimsonFox]

SCTV was a sketch show not a sitcom (just like kids in the hall). It was also 9in its original form) longer than a half hour. 90 minutes I think?

Moonlighting was an hour long and was probably classified in that mystery action adventure comedy detective shows category with all the other detective shows like Magnum, jake and the fat man, scarecrow and mrs king, etc

edit: ....oh wait you said that...sorry

[CrimsonFox]

oh gawd i forgot about punky brewster...
it was even a bad cartoon.

[kcchief19]

As I debate this, right now I'm 90% certain I'm going to dump Taxi from my seventh slot. I'd say I'm giving a slight lean to Benson over Family Ties, but I'm still debating. I still feel like there may be a show I'm missing.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

My favorite episode of Three's Company is the one with the big misunderstanding.

this joke never gets old

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

As I debate this, right now I'm 90% certain I'm going to dump Taxi from my seventh slot. I'd say I'm giving a slight lean to Benson over Family Ties, but I'm still debating. I still feel like there may be a show I'm missing.

heh I'm in the exact same boat. I just can't decide which will get my 7th.
BEnson and Mork and Mindy and Perfect Strangers all possibilities

[CrimsonFox]

ALF Love in the house!~ HA!

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

this joke never gets old

I liked that one, can't think of which episode, but it was kind of like a classic French farce where people kept entering rooms just as the person they needed to talk to exited. And then, when they finally did meet and were just about to say what desperately needed to be said to avoid the misunderstanding, someone else kept interrupting. That was such a good episode.

[Solecismic]

Where I am right now:

Certain

Cheers, The Golden Girls, Newhart

Likely

Family Ties, WKRP

Considering

The Cosby Show, Night Court, Designing Women, Three's Company, Diff'rent Strokes

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Oh snap - I forgot about Sledge Hammer!

Son Of A...ARGHHH. I don't think if I go back over my list it makes the cut, but as far as impact, even for a short time, Sledge Hammer was the balls. I think it lasted two seasons? And really was seemingly designed, story wise, for just one. But that first season was 50 kinds of awesome.

[kcchief19]

I didn't address it in my voting post, but Three's Company is without a doubt one of my least favorite shows of all time. Even the theme song is like nails on a chalkboard.

John Ritter, Norman Fell and Don Knotts are all pretty similar to me in that they are perfectly fine actors who seemed to never turn down a role, no matter how awful it was.

I watched Diff'rent Strokes because we had three channels and it was on, but never cared it for it either. The charm of Gary Coleman was lost on me.

Designing Women does intrigue me. It was a very buzzy show at the time, had a terrific core cast and was groundbreaking in its way. It could be very funny. The cast turnover and quality eventually did it in, but had some good moments. It was the most difficult choice I had when making my short list. I just wasn't sure how much legs it had. I feel like it had a short run on Nick at Nite, but has largely disappeared since then.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I just wasn't sure how much legs it had. I feel like it had a short run on Nick at Nite, but has largely disappeared since then.

it aired heavily on Lifetime for about a decade prior to going to NaN/TVLand. It's bounced around some lower profile networks since, last seen on something called LOGO I think.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

it aired heavily on Lifetime for about a decade prior to going to NaN/TVLand. It's bounced around some lower profile networks since, last seen on something called LOGO I think.

I almost added that it's possible it thrived on some channel I never watch, like Lifetime, Oxygen or Logo.

On Google Fiber, Lifetime is banished to the "Lifestyle" group of channels, and I never even come across it. For a second I had to think about whether it still existed.

[Solecismic]

I'll leave voting open for the weekend.

[larrymcg421]

Cosby show
Family Ties
Cheers
Three's Company
The Golden Girls
Taxi
WKRP in Cincinnati

[Solecismic]

Cheers
The Golden Girls
Newhart
Night Court
Family Ties
WKRP in Cincinnati
Designing Women

[stevew]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

oh gawd i forgot about punky brewster...
it was even a bad cartoon.

[Suicane75]

Never play in abandoned refrigerators.

[QuikSand]

Cheers
The Cosby Show
Three's Company
Family Ties
Diff'rent Strokes
WKRP in Cincinnati
The Golden Girls

[larrymcg421]

I loved the Shandling show, but it seems completely inappropriate to put on a "Mount Rushmost".

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Never play in abandoned refrigerators.

What if there's a nuclear bomb that's about to explode?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What if there's a nuclear bomb that's about to explode?

Well then you can play wherever the heck ya like.

[Radii]

Cheers
The Cosby Show
Its Garry Shandling's Show
WKRP In Cincinnati
Newhart
Benson
Night Court


Listed in order for me based on how easily I decided on their inclusion in this list. The first 5 were easy choices for me. Deciding between Benson, Night Court and Golden Girls for the last two spots was very tough.

[kcchief19]

After much consideration, I'm sticking with Taxi as my seventh show over Benson and Family Ties.

The writing and acting of Family Ties was clearly weaker, and the show quickly became a showcase for Michael J. Fox. That's not a bad thing -- as star vehicle goes, Family Ties was great.

I keep trying to find a better word for Benson than "campy," but campy fits. It's not quite as sharp as the Harris-Witt follow-up show, Golden Girls. Robert Guillaume was fantastic, as was Rene Auberjonois. But the rest of the cast is kind of replacement level, on par with Fox's supporting cast.

Of the three shows, I think Taxi has the largest legacy, which is mostly launching or jump-starting the careers of almost the entire cast. Kauffman was probably the best know actor on the show when it launched, yet almost everyone on the show became a star in their own way. The legacy of Taxi are the careers of Hirsch, DeVito, Danza and Lloyd.

[CrimsonFox]

I've been throwing around the D word (dated) an awful lotand now i'm wondering if that is fair or not.

Is it good to be remembered as a product of your own time period? Or better to live outside of that in every time period. Probably the second but there are some good examples of the first. I guess if you are in the first category you are totally unwatchable later on. So many things in the 80s were of their time. Because the 80s was SUCH a time. a time of ME. everything was clothes and shopping and hair and music and outrageousness.
70s also had a vibe too...more based on radicalism...or rebellion...on sex...on drugs.

I think the biggest thing I think of when I think of a dated sitcom is the jokes are all about putdowns...and those putdowns are 70s catchphrases. Or else the jokes are 100% about saying something or someone's name from the time period and that IS the WHOLE JOKE.

Welcome Back Kotter suffered from the catchphrase thing. Most of them weren't good actors and all had catchphrases. Up your nose with a rubbger hose. I remember laughing my ass off at sanford and son only to go back and and scratch my head later. strangely i cannot say the same about taxi. I can't remember a catchphrase. it had none. I can't remember it being about anything of the time really...just about the characters and their lives.

Family Ties seems one of the most dated in our list. mainly because the premise was so tuned to the decade. A decade of 80s greed and malls and conservatism vs the 60s/70s idealism and rebellion. But that all kinda got washed out as more and more of the 80s itself took over. Which is i guess the premise. Facts of life too seems that way. But then it IS about high school girls. What else are the stories going to be about. Granted each did have a chemistry to it. The Blair / Jo foils worked great and Rae was good. Ties had Fox beinggreat and working well with Birney/Gross. Did I mention I had an immense crush on Meredith Baxter-Birney?

Cheers to me stays absolutely out of time. Granted I flash back to that time period only because I was there watching it live and remember it all. It's about all bars. MASH creator Larry Gelbart said MASH was about "All Wars"...not just the Korean war. Indeed it was just about those people on the show and what happens. Cheers is that way too. I'd like to think that any show that can successfully do that is probably desrving of being on the list and everything else are just personal favorites.

Granted I think ALl in the Family is SO dated it isn't funny yet somehow stays on all these lists all the time.


I agree about Benson. I loved the show and it was one of my personal favorites but a lot of the sub cast were subpar. I just remembered that other members of the cast included Neelix from Star Trek Voyager and Frenchy from Grease.

Perfect Strangers is one that was a huge success and another personal favorite...however it was a descendant f 2 others. It was "The Odd Couple" meets Three's Company basically. I wish now we would have included Odd Couple. It set forth a HUGE premise in sitcom life...the one of "Two opposites not getting along that live together". Still it and Mork& Mindy were successful loony comedies and had their own unqieness about them.

Having trouble replacing Taxi now but I might as a personal "whatever".
I did like taxi in its time tho.

GOlden Girls yeah I can see people's like for it. All four of them could hold their own. It basically was Betty White's 3rd or 4th Career Bea ARthur's too really.

Still keeping Shandling. Definitely see later sitcoms pushing the envelope in what you can get away with thanks to it...like Seinfeld, Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.

[cuervo72]

My votes:
Cheers (1982-1993), 4.85b, 11, 270, 23.8m
The Cosby Show (1984-1992), 4.52b, 8, 202, 30.5m
Night Court (1984-1992), 2.77b, 9, 193, 20.3m
Newhart (1982-1990), 2.68b, 8, 184, 17.0m
The Golden Girls (1986-1992), 3.15b, 7, 180, 21.4m
Family Ties (1982-1989), 2.94b, 7, 168, 28.6m
Designing Women (1986-1993), 2.08b, 7, 163, 15.9m

Last Three Out:
Taxi (1978-1983), 1.62bm 5, 114, 18.6m
WKRP in Cincinnati (1978-1982), 1.16b, 4, 90, 15.8m
Benson (1979-1986), 1.92b, 7, 158, 15.7m

The first two pain me, as they were great but straddled that 70s line and were just a bit too short.

A couple of others that I thought of that were 80s, didn't deserve votes but did deserve mention (may have been, but I might have missed them):
Charles in Charge
Mama's Family

[Suicane75]

I don't know what the hell I was doing, cause I was watching TV constantly, but I totally missed out on the whole Charles In Charge thing. I have friends who, to them, it was the show to watch during that time period, but I've only seen a scattering of episodes. My feeling is that Nicole Egert has a lot to do with it. It has this weird Saved By The Bell level fanaticism to it, albeit from a smaller amount of people.

Mamas Family, I spent years thinking it was a parody just from the few times I saw it. But dear lord it's not. I don't know if that makes it better or worse.

[stevew]

Oh yeah, definitely watched a lot of Charles in Charge and Mama's Family. Both of these shows being first run syndicated definitely make it a ymmv type situation if you actually watched them.

[CrimsonFox]

Wow Charles in Charge! YES!

I never understood why they completely changed families.

I especially liked James Widdoes (from Animal House)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Wow Charles in Charge! YES!
I never understood why they completely changed families.

The show was cancelled by CBS after two seasons, was picked up for first-run syndication after a year hiatus.

[CrimsonFox]

I came upon that show after seeing Scott Baio and Willie Aames in Zapped! on the movie channel (about 100 times in one month)

[rowech]

So with the Charles in Charge Discussion, what other shows became bigger due to syndication than they were during first run episodes? We discussed the Brady Bunch as well. Full House seems to be one as a new generation of kids is watching that show religiously. It somewhat changes the discussion with streaming video but there have to be some other shows like that from before the streaming age.

[Suicane75]

Not A sitcom, but the big one that stands right out off the top of my head is Baywatch. 1 season on NBC, cancelled, and then a decade of being the biggest show in the world. The power of breasts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

So with the Charles in Charge Discussion, what other shows became bigger due to syndication than they were during first run episodes? We discussed the Brady Bunch as well. Full House seems to be one as a new generation of kids is watching that show religiously. It somewhat changes the discussion with streaming video but there have to be some other shows like that from before the streaming age.

CIC was a little different in that it was first-run syndication, new episodes being made, as opposed to the syndication of original episodes as reruns.

As for shows that took on a new life in their 2nd (3rd, 4th, 973rd) airing, one that I know of off-hand that had at least a little resurgence was Family Matters. My 18 y/o know the basics of Steve Urkel despite only being 3 months old when the show left the air the first time.

Going back a lot further, most anything that aired on WTBS has some of that effect applied, at least for those who got the channel. Hogan's Heroes, Gomer Pyle, Gilligan's Island all had their profile elevated to some extent by their constant airings.

Another series that, for the same WTBS reasons, that particularly had it's profile raise for me personally was The Rat Patrol.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by rowech

So with the Charles in Charge Discussion, what other shows became bigger due to syndication than they were during first run episodes? We discussed the Brady Bunch as well. Full House seems to be one as a new generation of kids is watching that show religiously. It somewhat changes the discussion with streaming video but there have to be some other shows like that from before the streaming age.

I think the original Star Trek is still the gold standard in this regard. Canceled after 3 seasons of low ratings on NBC, then on to syndication in the '70s, spawning five additional television series, twelve feature films, numerous books, and games.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

On Night Court, I'd argue that it was definitely not a time slot hit. The lineup of Cosby, Family Ties, Cheers and Night Court was the best four-hour block NBC ever had. Once they moved Night Court from 9:30, they didn't have another hit in the slot until Veronica's Closet ... AND that was a timeslot hit. I think a test pattern would have ranked No. 7 in the weekly ratings following Seinfeld. NBC jerked Night Court around during its last four seasons because it did have an audience and wanted to try and find another hit. I don't think they did until, of all things, "Just Shoot Me."

On "Taxi," you've summed up my thoughts eloquently. Critics loved it, the cast was terrific ... I just have a hard time liking it. I can't quite explain it, but I could never get into it. And I love almost everybody involved in the show, both on camera and behind the scenes.

I now remember what replaced Night Court! At least if memory serves me...And this very show has a modern connection (apart from this discussion). It was a show called "We Got It Made" about two bachelor twenty-somethings with girlfriends that get a hot live-in maid.

Starred Tom Villard, Matt McCoy and Teri Copley...it went away thankfully but then came back a couple years later with a partially different cast. Not sure if it went straight to syndication like some of the other shows like Charles in Charge.

THe connection tho and what made me think of it and connect it here was I was just watching the Silicon Valley marathon on HBO. The Lawyer Richard hires to mitigate for them with their Hooli suit...is Matt McCoy.




edit: yup...after cancellation, it returned in 1st run syndication
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Got_It_Made

[CrimsonFox]

Looking up theme songs...



when I found this....holy crap bad kramer....bad...

and poor paxton whitehead...

[CrimsonFox]

A Sharon Gless flop (Cagney & Lacey, Burn NOtice, Queer as Folk)

I remember watching this one!


and POOH!

[stevew]

I remember that when I came home from school you could easily get a 2 hour block of Saved By The Bell in.

[Suicane75]

My final 7, after much deliberation and soul searching.

Cheers
Three's Comapny
Night Court
It's Gary Shandlings Show
Perfect Strangers
Head Of The Class
Family Ties

[laser]

Cheers
The Cosby Show
Three's Company
WKRP In Cincinnati
Night Court
Taxi
Family Ties