Swine Flu

[stevew]

I'm not sure if I want to live in the 12 Monkeys future. Or that of the Stand

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm not sure if I want to live in the 12 Monkeys future. Or that of the Stand

I figured out long ago that I'm decidedly not post-apocalyptic stock.

SI

[Easy Mac]

They closed a school about 5 miles from me. 20 band geeks came back from a trip to FLA and said they had flu like symptoms. I think they just wanted a day off school.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Just checking on Google News, the only US Death that has been reported is the Mexican kid who was brought to the US because we have such a better medical system here that our tax dollars should be used to cure anyone.

Hard to understand this degree of callousness. You'd really rather let a young child die than let him be treated in the U.S.?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Hard to understand this degree of callousness. You'd really rather let a young child die than let him be treated in the U.S.?

Hmmmm. I didn't get that at all from his post.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Hard to understand this degree of callousness. You'd really rather let a young child die than let him be treated in the U.S.?

I never said anything about it being a child. In fact I don't see why there would be any more benefit from it being a child compared to an adult. I have a problem with people that come here to the US with problems that they expect us to treat on our dime regardless as to if they are children, adults, men, women, Irish, Iraqi, Mexican, or Chinese.

I'd much rather see his country man up and take some responsibility for their people and solve their problems, instead of us having to do it for them.

[thealmighty]

Ft. Worth ISD has shut down for two weeks. 80k students being asked to stay in their homes...and away from Chucky Cheese.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I'd much rather see his country man up and take some responsibility for their people and solve their problems, instead of us having to do it for them.

Well, I'm sure they would if the could. But they can't. It's not quite that simple unfortunately.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I never said anything about it being a child. In fact I don't see why there would be any more benefit from it being a child compared to an adult. I have a problem with people that come here to the US with problems that they expect us to treat on our dime regardless as to if they are children, adults, men, women, Irish, Iraqi, Mexican, or Chinese.

I'd much rather see his country man up and take some responsibility for their people and solve their problems, instead of us having to do it for them.

We should also let the 40% of our country who doesn't pay income tax die without health care too. Right? I mean why should we foot the bill for them too.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We should also let the 40% of our country who doesn't pay income tax die without health care too. Right? I mean why should we foot the bill for them too.

Or the counterfactual - why don't we foot the bill for sick people across the world? By any rational economic measures, $1 of additional health care spending goes much further in non-OECD countries, but yet we continue to selfishly spend billions on Medicare/Medicaid for a couple million elderly patients when that money could be used to build clinics across the developing world. Or why do we continue to pave roads with potholes here instead of paving dirt roads in other countries?

For the amount (~$150) I am forced to spend each month on health insurance I don't use that subsidizes poor people in my state it could save dozens of kids in a country like India from malnutrition, or provide clean water to a village, or mosquito netting to prevent malaria.

It's all a question of where you draw the line, and clearly on a macro level you're just as much an asshole for not wanting to pay the money to save every other sick kid as DanGarion is for not wanting to pay the money to save this one particular one who gets attention merely because of a unique maelstrom of media attention while millions die from common causes.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Or the counterfactual - why don't we foot the bill for sick people across the world? By any rational economic measures, $1 of additional health care spending goes much further in non-OECD countries, but yet we continue to selfishly spend billions on Medicare/Medicaid for a couple million elderly patients when that money could be used to build clinics across the developing world. Or why do we continue to pave roads with potholes here instead of paving dirt roads in other countries?

For the amount (~$150) I am forced to spend each month on health insurance I don't use that subsidizes poor people in my state it could save dozens of kids in a country like India from malnutrition, or provide clean water to a village, or mosquito netting to prevent malaria.

It's all a question of where you draw the line, and clearly on a macro level you're just as much an asshole for not wanting to pay the money to save every other sick kid as DanGarion is for not wanting to pay the money to save this one particular one who gets attention merely because of a unique maelstrom of media attention while millions die from common causes.

I'm not arguing whether he is right or wrong. DanGarion's statement implied that we shouldn't treat people who aren't paying for it. I'm just making sure that this includes everyone who doesn't pay in to fund our medical system.

I know we are a little unique as we are essentially the only advanced country not to have a national health care system.

[Cringer]

I get the feeling the big problem is the kid is from Mexico. If he were visiting family in the U.S. and were from Canada or Spain or somewhere else it probably wouldn't have blossomed into a large discussion. It can be denied easily I guess, but lets face it people will choose to quickly overlook the "visiting family" part and focus on "from Mexico, went to a hospital in a border town" and they turn it into part of their anti-Mexican/immigration views. If it were an Irish lad I am guessing people would be much quicker to believe he were visiting family.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Samdari

You are quoting this as fact?

Can you provide a source for this information?

From what I can tell the SARS scare died out before development on a vaccine was completed, and nowhere near the 774 people who died from SARS were ever given an experimental vaccine.

Citation? (so that I can use it as ammo)

Sorry for the delay in replaying, guys, I'm in Western Australia and roughly 12 hours out of phase with you.

Both pieces of information came from a story run on CNN a couple of days ago. I think it was the "Situation Room" with Wolfe Blitzer. The comment about SARS came from a "medical expert" whom I have no reason to disbelieve as he certainly didn't seem to be pursuing an anti-vaccine agenda but warning that vaccines can have problem of their own when applied en masse. According to google there was a SARS vaccine developed but not in time for the primary SARS outbreak but has been used since (google gives 237,000 responses to SARS vaccine so I assume there is some validity to its suggested existence). Presumably the expert was referring to subsequent deaths.

CNN ran a video clip of Schwarzenegger announcing the state of emergency. By the time the story was run both deaths had been found not to be a result of swine flu, lordscarlet.

I understand there are approximately 100 deaths every day from seasonal flu in the US alone which would seem to me to need some attention
.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I never said anything about it being a child. In fact I don't see why there would be any more benefit from it being a child compared to an adult. I have a problem with people that come here to the US with problems that they expect us to treat on our dime regardless as to if they are children, adults, men, women, Irish, Iraqi, Mexican, or Chinese.

I'd much rather see his country man up and take some responsibility for their people and solve their problems, instead of us having to do it for them.

What about the people from the US that go to Canada and Europe because the procedures are free there?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Sorry for the delay in replaying, guys, I'm in Western Australia and roughly 12 hours out of phase with you.

Both pieces of information came from a story run on CNN a couple of days ago. I think it was the "Situation Room" with Wolfe Blitzer. The comment about SARS came from a "medical expert" whom I have no reason to disbelieve as he certainly didn't seem to be pursuing an anti-vaccine agenda but warning that vaccines can have problem of their own when applied en masse. According to google there was a SARS vaccine developed but not in time for the primary SARS outbreak but has been used since (google gives 237,000 responses to SARS vaccine so I assume there is some validity to its suggested existence). Presumably the expert was referring to subsequent deaths.

CNN ran a video clip of Schwarzenegger announcing the state of emergency. By the time the story was run both deaths had been found not to be a result of swine flu, lordscarlet.

I understand there are approximately 100 deaths every day from seasonal flu in the US alone which would seem to me to need some attention
.

You initial point is valid in that we will spend an outragous amount of money to supposedly save lives while lowering the speed limit or outlawing tobacco would save many times that. My guess though with the SARS vaccine quote is he was probably talking about Americans and I am guessing there were some fatalities from both the virus and the vaccine but I doubt 700+ people died from the vaccine.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Just checking on Google News, the only US Death that has been reported is the Mexican kid who was brought to the US because we have such a better medical system here that our tax dollars should be used to cure anyone.

IMHO, there are some very compelling arguments for conservative economic policies as opposed to liberal economic policies. Indeed, I, personally, tend to lean in that direction. And I think that a lot of people share that assessment.

So, why do only 1 in 5 Americans dare to call themselves Republican now? To me, it has to do with tone. There is a way to talk about the economics of rationing limited health care resources that will resonate with people. But, at some point, the GOP messengers lost the abilty to talk that way. And, blaming the family of a dead child for doing what they could to try to cure him is NOT THE WAY TO DO THAT.

I have a child. I can put myself in the shoes of the parents who would do WHATEVER THE FUCK IT TOOK TO KEEP HIM ALIVE. And, at some point, the kernel of real honest to goodness sense buried in your post was overwhelmed by this need to MAKE SURE THAT I KNOW THAT BEING IN THE GOP MEANS THAT ONE HAS NO SYMPATHY FOR THAT DESIRE. When you are saying that anyone who believes that marginal tax rates are more important than keeping children alive should join your party . . . well, I guess that I am suprised that 1 in five people have the nerve to call themsevles Republican.

Now, rant over, I really do get your point. And there is a lot to be said for it. But you see how coming into a thread, not about politics but about swine flu, and jumping on the child victim and his family is a really poor rhetorical strategy? How do you ever expect to get back into the majority when you frame your arguments like that?

[DaddyTorgo]

the piggies are gonna getcha!

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by panerd

My guess though with the SARS vaccine quote is he was probably talking about Americans and I am guessing there were some fatalities from both the virus and the vaccine but I doubt 700+ people died from the vaccine.

I seem to remember that he was responding to the idea that there could be a vaccine rushed out for the swine flu. He first said that there was no guarantee that such a vaccine could be developed quickly and second that the level of testing needed for a vaccine that would be used in great numbers would be far greater than could be achieved in time and that there would be a significant danger that such a vaccine could kill more than it saved if it were used before it had gone through that testing. There is always a significant number of people who have severe reactions to any vaccine, some fatal, it's important to have some understanding of that. It was at that point he mentioned the SARS vaccine and I guess he was referring to the total of deaths in the many years it has now been used.

But my main complaint is at the way the media have treated this. There is no doubt in my mind that they have created a degree of panic. I live on the edge of outback Australia - you couldn't get to a place less likely to see this outbreak - but the local press is reporting a run on masks and anti-viral products even here. The reporting in recent days has been little short of hysterical.

I think the media here are now responding to the criticism or maybe just realising that their reports are beginning to look ridiculous. 2/3 days ago the tv news was dominated by reports of "suspected" cases here in Australia - a bigger number every hour. But the "suspected" bit was being ignored. Tonight the report began in a much more sober manner with the news that the 100 or so "suspected" cases had all proved false and there are no confirmed cases at all here as yet.

So, the news for Australia at this point is "as yet there have been no confirmed cases of swine flu". Now, that may not sell many newspapers or have people glued to their tv sets, but that is the current condition here but you would never have guessed that listening to the news of the last few days

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

LOL @ Joe Biden.

Man, what a caricature.

Biden slips a little on flu warning - 2008 Presidential Campaign Blog - Political Intelligence - Boston.com

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Well, I'm sure they would if the could. But they can't. It's not quite that simple unfortunately.

We have enough of our own problems in our country to deal with other countries problems. Once we handle all of ours, then we can worry about the rest of the world.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

We have enough of our own problems in our country to deal with other countries problems. Once we handle all of ours, then we can worry about the rest of the world.

Agreed. We've got millions of uninsured Americans. That money is eartagged for them, not citizens of other countries. That's what foreign aid is for.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

What about the people from the US that go to Canada and Europe because the procedures are free there?

They should be sent back to the States.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Now, rant over, I really do get your point. And there is a lot to be said for it. But you see how coming into a thread, not about politics but about swine flu, and jumping on the child victim and his family is a really poor rhetorical strategy? How do you ever expect to get back into the majority when you frame your arguments like that?

I'm not a republican.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I'm not a republican.

My bad.

And my bad for my entire post, really. Very dickish in tone on my part. I'm sorry about that.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ace1914

Hmm. Playing devil's advocate, isn't this is a great way to justify completely closing the border, right?

The likely benefit is minimal, and not anywhere near enough to justify the economic damage it would case. In plain terms, closing the border would have a very small effect on the spread of the disease, and would cost the economy billions.

Originally Posted by Autumn

There are times to be wary of vaccines. Such as when they were just made yesterday for a disease we don't understand yet. Chances are they will at that point be more dangerous than helpful for most people. Vaccines take a long time to get right.

While that's true, it should be noted that a number of major phamaceuticals work on flu vaccines a lot and in these scenarios are typically provided with a "reference strain" of the new virus by the government (once the government can isolate it) from which to modify their existing vaccines, which can then be distributed.

So basically on flu they don't start from scratch. As opposed to SARS, for instance.

"More dangerous than helpful"? The adverse reactions from flu vaccines are well known in the medical community and practitioners working with at-risk populations (children, elderly) know how to counteract these ARs should they present themselves. Any widespread vaccination program would, these days, also take into account certain populations who would have trouble handling the vaccine, but these populations typically represent only a small minority of the overall population.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

From what I've gathered, you get sick from this but ultimately recover even without medical attention. It sort of sounds like the regular flu, but a little worse. Am I wrong here?

Yes, basically. You can still die if you have complicating circumstances (i.e. other respiratory or immune problems) or if your immune system isn't up to handling the disease (children, elderly). Then there are the special cases JiMGA has referenced.

The key thing, as others have noted, is that the virus has a long linger time and is relatively easily spread, so it's possible to infect a lot of people. Then it all becomes a matter of statistics.

There's also the issue of adequacy of response. A lot of infants who contract this will need an ER visit, for instance, to at the very least get re-hydrated. Well, if an entire daycare comes down with it, they may overload the nearest hospital's ability to care for all the infants, and some may expire before they can be transferred to another hospital or be treated at the first hospital.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

My bad.

And my bad for my entire post, really. Very dickish in tone on my part. I'm sorry about that.

No worries, I take most the things said on here lightly. I just think we as American's should work on our own problems instead of the rest of the worlds. I'm all about foreign aid, once our people are cared for. And honestly I'm all about helping a foreigner in the hospital if there is an emergency but I don't appreciate anyone that goes here expecting us to treat them. It's unfortunate that a child died, but his life is no more important then all the other people that die every day. Let's see what else. And where the person comes from in the story has no bearing on me, the media choose to specifically mention the child was Mexican, and I bet it was because they wanted to rile the anti illegal immigrant people up.

[Arles]

One school shut down today in Arizona and I've had two people who work for me call in and ask if it's OK that they come in as their wife has the flu. There's a lot of worry in Arizona, but nothing really to show from an outcome yet (just uncertainty).

The one positive about Arizona is that in a week or two, it will be 103-105 and that be warm enough to kill about any flu virus floating around

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

No worries, I take most the things said on here lightly. I just think we as American's should work on our own problems instead of the rest of the worlds. I'm all about foreign aid, once our people are cared for. And honestly I'm all about helping a foreigner in the hospital if there is an emergency but I don't appreciate anyone that goes here expecting us to treat them. It's unfortunate that a child died, but his life is no more important then all the other people that die every day. Let's see what else. And where the person comes from in the story has no bearing on me, the media choose to specifically mention the child was Mexican, and I bet it was because they wanted to rile the anti illegal immigrant people up.

Or perhaps it's pertinent information given the epicenter of the flu is Mexico.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Or perhaps it's pertinent information given the epicenter of the flu is Mexico.

I'd like to the think the media is more interested in viewers then the safety of the public. For the most part they do what they can to bring in viewers. But yes the epicenter does appear to be Mexico. Maybe it was a Pig Show (instead of the typical Donkey Show).

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

According to google there was a SARS vaccine developed but not in time for the primary SARS outbreak but has been used since (google gives 237,000 responses to SARS vaccine so I assume there is some validity to its suggested existence). Presumably the expert was referring to subsequent deaths.

If you click on the links, you won't find any of them referring to a SARS vaccine that went into production (at least I did not). The furthest any seem to have gone is human trials (where participants number in the dozens), then the fervent panic went away, and with it the money for research.

I see nothing to indicate to me that more than 774 people (the number commonly quoted as having died from SARS) were ever given any form of SARS vaccine, thus making it impossible to have more people die from it than SARS.

It seems that 'fact' is likely a anti-vaccine hyberbole.

I don't want to get into a debate on whether or not vaccines are useful, just seemed that fact was extremely unlikely. I have seen nothing to dissuade me from that view.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Ft. Worth ISD has shut down for two weeks. 80k students being asked to stay in their homes...and away from Chucky Cheese.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any response here to this. It's freaking huge. And they're telling all the parents to keep the kids at home and not to let them hang out with each other or go to daycare. Yeah, like that's going to happen...

An elementary school in Lewisville also shut down due to 1 confirmed case and three probable cases. There's 1 probably case in Denton county so far...I wonder if UNT and TWU would shut down with finals coming up next week?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

I'm surprised there hasn't been any response here to this. It's freaking huge. And they're telling all the parents to keep the kids at home and not to let them hang out with each other or go to daycare. Yeah, like that's going to happen...

An elementary school in Lewisville also shut down due to 1 confirmed case and three probable cases. There's 1 probably case in Denton county so far...I wonder if UNT and TWU would shut down with finals coming up next week?

So is the whole city shutting down then? Only those of us without children will be able to work.

[flere-imsaho]

I did some research and it appears that there is no marketed SARS vaccine, though there are several (using different methods of action) in development, including some that have finished initial trials (including trials in China, where the government has supported trials with relatively large populations for initial trials).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I did some research and it appears that there is no marketed SARS vaccine, though there are several (using different methods of action) in development, including some that have finished initial trials (including trials in China, where the government has supported trials with relatively large populations for initial trials).

YOU WILL TAKE THIS TRAIL VACCINE OR YOU WON'T EAT MR. COMMUNIST FARMER-MAN!

[DaddyTorgo]

couldn't we just do the same thing with North Korea & Cuba?

Some big drug company pays them billions of dollars to test new drugs on their population cheaply. Cheaper than the testing process over here, and then you should conceivably coast through trials over here.

*tongue in cheek*

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

So is the whole city shutting down then? Only those of us without children will be able to work.

No doubt. Last night my wife was grumbling about how many of her employees were going to be calling in despite the fact she probably doesn't employ anyone who lives in Fort Worth...

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Some big drug company pays them billions of dollars to test new drugs on their population cheaply. Cheaper than the testing process over here, and then you should conceivably coast through trials over here.

I know you're joking, but the weakness of doing it this way is that regulatory agencies in the major regions (US, EU, for instance) would be more likely to look at the data collected askance, especially if good trial design and/or data collection was potentially compromised in any way.

If you want to sell something globally, you still pretty much need to get either the FDA or EMEA to approve it.

[spleen1015]

They said that a black man would become president when pigs fly.

Dude has been president for 100 days and BAM!!!!!!!!!

SWINE FLU!!!!

[Cringer]

I have been joking about it on here but if this is what I have I would say it's nothing to brush off. This thing is kicking my ass. Death's door? Nope, but it's the flu and it sucks more then any flu I have had in a long time and I don't need to be tested to tell me that much. I have so much crap coming out of my lungs I need to find a use for it.

[flere-imsaho]

QUICK!!! VACCINATE THE THREAD!!!

[Sun Tzu]

Maybe you should try some tussin

Get well Cringer.

[DanGarion]

Shit now we need to sanitize the whole board... and the servers, and the internet!

BOARD'S CLOSED EVERYBODY!

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm not arguing whether he is right or wrong. DanGarion's statement implied that we shouldn't treat people who aren't paying for it. I'm just making sure that this includes everyone who doesn't pay in to fund our medical system.

Sitting 2000+ miles away, it seems like the difference between Brownsville and Ciudad Juarez is a rather arbitrary one. Yet people (hyprocritically/ironically enough, generally the same ones who decry patriotism in a military context) are prepared to spend money on people they've never met in Brownsville, yet not give a dollar to someone they've never met 10 miles farther south.

Personally, I find it funny that people seem to have a need to latch onto something like proximity or nationality when really, in my opinion, one person I haven't met is just as worthy of being helped as another. Maybe I fall too far into albion's cold, heartless, rational economic talk, but I don't feel any emotional connection to 99.9% of Americans and the marginal rate of return on the money is so much greater in other places.


In other news, missing Better Off Ted (and part of Chuck last week for the Craigslist killer) was bad enough. If one second of Lost had been pre-empted for this hysteria (or whatever else Obama decided to talk about this week) there would have been problems.

[Butter]

I cross-posted that pic of the kid licking the pig's nose to another board.

Do you think they have a chance of getting infected.

I'll hang up to listen to your response, kthx.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Cringer

I have been joking about it on here but if this is what I have I would say it's nothing to brush off. This thing is kicking my ass. Death's door? Nope, but it's the flu and it sucks more then any flu I have had in a long time and I don't need to be tested to tell me that much. I have so much crap coming out of my lungs I need to find a use for it.

Ugh. Hope you feel better soon. I had a rough time when I was sick at super bowl time and again a few weeks later. Never coughed up so much lung butter in my life. Lots of fluids, two hot showers a day, plus something to stop the post-nasal drip were the things that helped me the most.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Sitting 2000+ miles away, it seems like the difference between Brownsville and Ciudad Juarez is a rather arbitrary one. Yet people (hyprocritically/ironically enough, generally the same ones who decry patriotism in a military context) are prepared to spend money on people they've never met in Brownsville, yet not give a dollar to someone they've never met 10 miles farther south.

Yes and no. Tons of family connections going back and forth along the border. People from both sides travel back and forth across the bridges every day for work (even whiteys from up north). Going to Monterrey, Mexico is just as much of an option for a weekend trip as going to San Antonio, maybe more for many because of family. Still, it is pretty clear that the river divides two pretty different places.

[Cringer]

Sorry to infect you all, but I need to do my part to support the media in this thing.

[Sun Tzu]

My mother in-laws friend just got back from Mexico, and was sick as a dog when she got back. She went to Kaiser and had to be quarantined for 48 hours, and then was only released if she agreed not to leave the confines of her house until Monday of next week. They are supposed to get her test results back today sometime.

crazy

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

My mother in-laws friend just got back from Mexico, and was sick as a dog when she got back. She went to Kaiser and had to be quarantined for 48 hours, and then was only released if she agreed not to leave the confines of her house until Monday of next week. They are supposed to get her test results back today sometime.

crazy

I'd be more worried about the fact that she went to Kaiser. She would have been better off seeing a doctor in Mexico.

[Glengoyne]

I don't have the slightest problem with what Biden said. Frankly I think it's silly to make it an issue. He's stating his opinion. Even the VP is entitled to his own opinion.

If I had a trip scheduled, I'd contemplate changing plans to avoid flying if possible. Two of my staff are flying to Arizona for a conference. I've discussed their individual comfort levels with both of them, and have offered up that we could cancel their flights in favor of renting a car and making the nine hour drive. I wouldn't consider that decision to be an over reaction.

I'm not one of the Doomsayers on this subject, but if someone decides that precaution is in order, there isn't anything wrong with that.