The Beginning of the Death of Online Poker in the US

[SirFozzie]

yer a shmuck, Jon

[INDalltheway]

Can someone help me get some money in my bankroll? I use PokerStars, but would be willing to change what I use.. PM if you can help.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

Can someone help me get some money in my bankroll? I use PokerStars, but would be willing to change what I use.. PM if you can help.

try paytrue.com

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

There will be a hearing concerning Barney Frank's upcoming bill to allow online poker on June 8th at 10:30 AM. Contact your federal representitives and voice your support for the bill.

Web link to watch the hearing.....
http://financialservices.house.gov/hearings_all.shtml


List of speaking participants......

Howard Lederer, Professional Poker Player and Poker Industry Software Consultant

Radley Balko, Senior Editor, Reason Magazine

Jon Prideaux, Chief Executive, Asterion Payments

Gerald Kitchen, Chief Executive Officer, SecureTrading Ltd

Pastor Greg Hogan (son robbed a bank when he went into debt http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/ma...ae13d0&ei=5070)

[Jas_lov]

An even better bill than Barney Frank's is being introduced Thursday by Robert Wexler(D-FL) which will exempt poker from the UIGEA legislation. This would ensure online poker could still be played everywhere and not leave it up to the states as in Frank's bill, although regulating it is probably the better way to get it passed in Congress than Wexler's outright repeal.

hxxp://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN0643855220070606

Also, Howard Lederer won't be at the hearing Friday. Kind of bad timing with the WSOP going on.

[Surtt]

Just some more WTO saber rattling.
But it sounds like some other countries are starting to smell blood in the water.


hxxp://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/21/wto_antigua_us_gambling_eu_india_japan/

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Good to see that Antigua is continuing to push forward. This law isn't going to last much longer. They simply didn't think about all the consequences when they put it into effect.

[Surtt]

The main issue here goes beyond just online poker.
The US is, in essence, trying to rewrite it's commitment after being fond guilty of violating it.
If it does, anyone else would be free to do the same thing and the whole organization is going to be meaningless.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Another salvo. Lawsuit filed in New Jersey to have UIGEA declared unconstitutional and unlawful........

http://www.gambling911.com/Online-Ga...EA-071207.html

Updated: UIGEA Hearing Set for September 4

"A Federal Judge in the state of New Jersey has assigned a hearing date for its lawsuit against U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales that seeks to have an new online gambling law, the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) overturned. Gambling911.com has learned that the hearing date is set for September 4. Judge Mary L. Cooper of the US District Court in Trenton, NJ will hear the matter.

The group, the Interactive Media Entertainment & Gaming Association (iMEGA), has a good shot, according to Cassimir Medford who has been covering the online gambling legal climate for Red Herring

iMEGA's goal is to get the court to declare the UIGEA unconstitutional and unenforceable, according to Medford. That’s because the group says the act violates the First Amendment’s rights to freedom of speech and commercial association as well as the Tenth Amendment’s protections of states’ rights to regulate online gambling.

'The UIGEA can still be enforced prior to the September 4 date,' he said. 'But we feel confident that the judge will prevent that from happening.'"

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

FYI to those of you still playing poker online. Ultimate Bet has just added a bad beat jackpot to a lot of its cash games. The games are becoming extremely juicy. Might want to head over there if you're looking for a site with an influx of fishy players.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I played poker last night and got coached to a 2nd place finish in a $3.25 6-handed sit-n-go.

Yeeeeah, I'm kind of the black sheep of the Bad Beats Crew. Err, no pun intended.

[ArlingtonColt]

I usually stick to 1 dollar 45 man MTT's on full tilt, I'm cashing about 50% of the time to keep me afloat. I just started playing a few months ago, so I still have alot to learn :P

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by ArlingtonColt

I usually stick to 1 dollar 45 man MTT's on full tilt, I'm cashing about 50% of the time to keep me afloat. I just started playing a few months ago, so I still have alot to learn :P

If you're patient, you can do really well at the micro levels at the sites. People don't value money at that level. I got my bankroll started by winning $5 in a freeroll tournament. Couple of years later, I now have $1200. I still play the lower levels because I can pretty consistently win $5-10 a night and have fun doing it. Going to the higher levels takes the fun out of it for me.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm going to be mad if the law stops me from killing the shorthanded NL5 and NL10 tables on PokerStars!!!

[cartman]

Wow, this might be the end of Absolute Poker if even part of this is true:

hxxp://www.poker-king.com/poker-king-articles.php?article=282

Absolute Poker: Going, Going..


The Absolute Poker controversy keeps getting more wild by the day.

So when we last left you, Absolute Poker had issued a statement denying that anyone had access to a "superuser" account and that no one could see any hole cards. After poring over the hand histories and evidence, they said, they had found no evidence of any wrong-doing. They would continue to investigate though, they had said. I thought at the time that Absolute Poker would just go into ignore mode from that point on, and the issue would eventually be dropped.

Well hold on..

Apparently, "CrazyMarco" (the player who had come second in that now infamous tournament that was won by "Potripper") asked for the hand histories from this tournament from Absolute Poker.

Absolute Poker sent the hand histories. Unfortunately for them, they also included the hole cards of every player at the table, and not just CrazyMarco's hole cards.

After viewing just a couple of hands, you can come to the conclusion that Potripper was cheating. The evidence is overwhelming. It is just ridiculous, and I find it hard to believe that they didn't do a better job of hiding it. Always getting his money in good, and never putting in an extra chip when he is behind in a hand. Going over the top of a re-raiser of a board of 8d 6d 3s holding the Q 10 of clubs, when his opponents are holding K J and Q J. Holding pocket Jacks against an opponent holding A Q, and check folding on the turn when a Queen comes out. Playing almost every hand when his opponents aren't dealt a big hand, but folding when an opponent at the table is dealt a big hand. Open folding KQ one hand (when an opponent is dealt AA), but raising 2/6 UTG when none of his opponents at the table have big hands. Going through a stretch when he wins something ridiculous like 65 hands out of a total of 90 hands. You can go on and on; if you need to see for yourself, there is plenty of evidence on Pocketfives and Twoplustwo. The people on those sites have done a TREMENDOUS job in getting these hand histories out to the public. Who knows how many other tournaments on Absolute were won in this fashion?

Absolute automatically loses all credibility because they say that there was no evidence of a "superuser" account in the hand histories. Oh really?

The best part of this story is just being fleshed out right now though. Who was involved in this operation?

Absolute Poker not only made a huge blunder in sending out the hand history with all of the hole cards displayed, but they also included the email addresses / account id's / IP Addresses of everyone who opened up a table as an observer during this tournament.

Apparently an Absolute Poker account with an ID of 363 opened up Potripper's table two hands into the tournament and railed him the entire way. The ID number is significant because this would indicate that this account was one of the first accounts EVER at Absolute Poker, making it likely that this is a person with extremely close ties to the company (employee, owner, shareholder, etc.)

Potripper folds the first two hands of the tournament, then ID 363 opens up Potripper's table to observe, and suddenly Potripper starts going wild, winning practically every hand.

The prevailing theory in the poker community? Potripper was a dummy account, and ID 363 had access to hole cards, and was relaying them to "Potripper."

Apparently the IP address of User ID 363 resolves to Costa Rica as well, which is home to Absolute Poker.

The story gets more interesting by the minute, and I am doing my best to keep up with it.

I feel that it's important to report on this story, as it has big implications for online poker as a whole. In the end, protecting players is much more important to me than burning a bridge with an online poker room. We need to do our part to get the story out there, so that everyone can figure out exactly what happened, and make sure that it doesn't happen again. Nothing can be explained away in regards to this situation, the cat is out of the bag..

More updates are coming on this story..

Evidently, the IP address of the railbird was tracked back to an Absolute Poker exec. 2+2 has the up to date info:

hxxp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=beats&Number=12541923&page=0&fpart=1

[wade moore]

I don't play online poker, but man - that's some crazy shit.

[Flasch186]

no wonder ive been losing for the last 2 days

[Chubby]

doesn't surprise me that this has happened. it only takes one bad apple...

[Toddzilla]

I just got finished reading those monster threads on 2+2...

OH SHI...

I think someone has got some 'splainin to do.

[Toddzilla]

Dola - I find in hilarious, and sad, that the Razz games on AP are borked so that the wrong hands get paid. Unreal.

[Maple Leafs]

Finally, an explanation as to why I can't win on Pokerstars anymore.

(Yes it is. Shut up. Yes it is.)

[Radii]

Holy shit. The simple fact that its possible for a hand history to be generated for a user with all the hole cards shows a MASSIVE problem. The rest after that is so over the top its amazing.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Another great reason why the U.S. government needs to get off it's tail end and get this industry regulated and taxed with sites in the U.S. rather than overseas. There's a huge opening for U.S. casinos to bring in websites to the mass market if they just give them a chance.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Dola - I find in hilarious, and sad, that the Razz games on AP are borked so that the wrong hands get paid. Unreal.

Wait, I want to read more about this.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Wait, I want to read more about this.

I'm having no luck with the horrid 2+2 Search function, but the basic idea was a hand where both players caught horrendously paired boards. Lets say for example the 5 card hands that were shown down were:

A23JJ

and

A588K


a pair of 8s is the better low hand than jacks, but the pot gets awarded to the guy playing a pair of jacks. When the guy who lost e-mails support to point out that the logic determining who wins the pot is wrong, the response from support is something like: "A23 is a better low than A5K, the pairs don't play and aren't a part of the hand"

leading to comments about how at Absolute, the best possible 5 card hand must be AKKKK, the quads don't count, you've just got an ace low!

My details are not 100% right i'm sure, but dear god finding threads at 2+2 is horrid.

[chinaski]

*remembers all his bad beats on AP and wonders*

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Radii

leading to comments about how at Absolute, the best possible 5 card hand must be AKKKK, the quads don't count, you've just got an ace low!

That's really terrible. You'd think they'd have some sort of super-user account so that they could test stuff like this.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That's really terrible. You'd think they'd have some sort of super-user account so that they could test stuff like this.

LOL

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That's really terrible. You'd think they'd have some sort of super-user account so that they could test stuff like this.

Genius.

[sterlingice]

I'm not an online poker player and I see this as a big deal and interesting story. Whoops...

SI

[Radii]

http://wizardofodds.com/software/absolutepoker.html

Though some of the astronomical odds he's quoting are based on some impossible assumptions, the point being made here is very straightforward and easy to understand even if you don't play poker.

If you do play poker:

POTRIPPER had decision-making ability at the river 16 times, and he won all 16 of those times. When he had the best hand, he always raised. When he didn’t he either folded or bluffed against a weak opponent. Never once did he call on the river.

That might be all you need to read heh.

[Flasch186]

...and it seems AP has admitted it!

Originally Posted by Pocket5's

Just posted at P5s.

PocketFives just received a phone call from Absolute Poker confirming the suspicions of the online poker community over the past month. While we need to be vague in this post to respect their wishes, we can say that their systems were compromised, and that they are prepared to provide the details in a statement coming shortly.

Part of the statement will include a plan to refund players affected by this compromise.

We are extremely relieved to hear this outcome, as our most important goal in all this is to see justice given to those who were cheated in this process. Pocketfives is extremely proud to have played a part in the process of uncovering the impropriety that has occurred. We would of course like to thank all the other parties who played a key role in this process—specifically the folks that have been posting here and at twoplustwo.com.

This is great news for everyone. Keep your eyes out for the statement.

Extremely Relieved,

--Adam

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

...and it seems AP has admitted it!

Kudos for AP to bite the bullet and set the record straight. This may not prevent the mass-exodus from their sight, but it should allow them so save face somewhat.

[Lathum]

does anyone have a link to the thread on 2+2 about this?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Lathum

does anyone have a link to the thread on 2+2 about this?

It is at the bottom of my post above.

[Lathum]

thx

[gstelmack]

I'm just shocked that people were shocked that there was:

A) Cheating in a gambling environment.
B) Cheating when crossing borders to play (since there is zero risk to the companies).
C) Cheating in an Internet game.

[Passacaglia]

Their systems were compromised? Oh right.

[MJ4H]

Shock is not the same thing as outrage. I think there was only one of these at work with the people that aren't just stupid.

[Maple Leafs]

The AP scandal is currently the lead story on msnbc.com.

[Radii]

ugh. Not good.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

This is the main reason I won't gamble on the internet, or video poker, or video slots. Too easy to rig. I much prefer loaded dice, marked cards, or a magnetized roulette ball.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Rounder: The Poker Show has an hour-long episode dedicated to the Absolute Poker scandal. The guest on the show is the guy who broke the story on the 2+2 forums. Certainly a very interesting listen.

http://www.bigpoker.ca/resources/rou...2007-10-21.mp3

[Flasch186]

this page of a huge thread at 2+2 tells the story...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&fpart=10&vc=1

[Radii]

so even if you haven't followed along, this one statement while researching the people involved says quite a bit.. in reference to AJ Green, the guy presumed to be actually playing the tournament in question on the POTRIPPER account:

"While at Nine.com, AJ had a portrait done of himself that hung on his wall over his desk. The photo was a picture of him "American Beauty' style laying spread out on his futon covered in hundred dollar bills."

I'm not sure I can think of anything else that would more immediately and certainly qualify a person as a total douchebag.

[Ryche]

Just jumped into playing online some. Freerolled my way into two dollars, now I'm up over 13 Playing and fighting for a couple of bucks online is far more fun than it should be.

[Surtt]

From slashdot

MA Proposes Two Year Jail Term for Online Gambling

"The Boston Globe reports that Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick is trying to sneak a provision to criminalize online gambling. The bill, if passed, would make online gambling punishable by up to 2 years in prison and $25k in fines. Ironically, the provision is buried deep within a bill to allow the construction of three new casinos in Massachusetts to bring more gambling revenue into the state. 'If you were cynical about it, you'd think that they're trying to set up a monopoly for the casinos,' said David G. Schwartz, director of the Center for Gaming Research at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Democratic House representative Barney Frank, who earlier this year introduced federal legislation to legalize regulated online gambling, also criticized the move as 'giving opponents an argument against him.' Indeed, groups such as the Poker Player's Alliance, who were previously supportive of Patrick's plans to open the new casinos, have already announced opposition to the bill because of the online gambling clause."

Better be careful if you live in Massachusetts.

[Flasch186]

been running into buzzsaws and miracle flops for 2 weeks now. Its unreal. I cant believe how many people have flopped sets of 4, 5, and 7's against a 5-6X preflop raise. Im at a loss for words....

this has forced me to loosen up when I should be tightening up and Im seeing more ridiculousness.....like someone chasing a runner runner to a A high flush when I has the K high flush on the flop and we were both all in for over 100$. I just cant believe how the stars are aligning right now....

I cant force anyone off of the flop with huge raises and im watching people hit miracles left and right crushing me.


ugh

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Surprised no one posted this yet. Harrah's made a big announcement that they are exploring entering the online poker world.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/11/14/h....ap/index.html

While this isn't a direct entry into the U.S. market, the fact that a U.S. company is exploring this option is indicitive that the U.S. market may be opening back up relatively soon. 2+2 members believe it may be as soon as late next year with regulation occurring in 2009.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

2+2 members believe it may be as soon as late next year with regulation occurring in 2009.

Don't get too excited about the US law changing yet. Although Barney Frank, the Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, does have a bill that would make online gambling legal and regulated, it looks unlikely to move next year. This would be a very tough bill to pass in an election year. Maybe it will get some play in 2009, depeding on who wins the White House.