Tipping

[Marmel]

A lot of cheap bastards at FOFC. You do all realize that if there was no tipping, then the restaurants/hotels/etc. would just raise their prices so they could pay their employees more?

I understand you might hate the tipping culture but that is what we have in this country and you not tipping somebody means they work for nothing for you and you are certainly not going to change the culture with your non-tipping stand.

Most of these tipping jobs are pretty low paying jobs and the workers are lower skilled and depend on your tips to get by, support their family, pay for school so they can get a better job, etc. If you can afford to stay in a hotel, whether corporate paid or not, then you can afford $3 a day and if you can't then at least give them $1 a day or $5 for your whole stay.

[molson]

So would that be a better system overall then? All services being 10-20% cheaper and people being left to their own discretion and social pressure to decide how much to fill that gap?

I'd rather the generous people in our country support good charitable causes instead of be called upon to disproportionally support Marriott's business strategy.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Are you talking about everywhere, restaurants, etc...or just places like hotels, car washes, etc...?

Everywhere , I try to avoid any place where I'm expected to pay a tip.

Originally Posted by Marmel

A lot of cheap bastards at FOFC. You do all realize that if there was no tipping, then the restaurants/hotels/etc. would just raise their prices so they could pay their employees more?

I'm fine with that. I just want the entire bill up front.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

So would that be a better system overall then? All services being 10-20% cheaper and people being left to their own discretion and social pressure to decide how much to fill that gap?

I'd rather the generous people in our country support good charitable causes instead of be called on to better support the Marriott's business strategy.

Aaah but see, if Marriott can continue to underpay their workers they can create more $$ for shareholders (aka "the well off"). Privatization of profit and socialization of risk & as much expenses as you can get away with, that's the key.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Everywhere , I try to avoid any place where I'm expected to pay a tip.

You realize most servers make less than minimum wage per hour, many states it is $2.13 an hour, the only way they make money is tips. And if you think you would get the same service without tips you are crazy.

[NobodyHere]

I'm not saying I don't tip servers, I just avoid going to places where I'm expected to tip altogether.

I have no problem with paying servers a good wage and adjusting prices accordingly.

If I don't get good service at a restaurant I don't go back.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

If I don't get good service at a restaurant I don't go back.

Without tipping you would rarely get good service. The incentive to be friendly, prompt, go above and beyond, etc...is hopefully a better tip. Servers who excel at those things make more money, it is a fact.

Take that away and you would get a bunch of apathetic late teen/ early twenties who couldn't care less if you get that refill of blue cheese before you finish your wings.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Without tipping you would rarely get good service. The incentive to be friendly, prompt, go above and beyond, etc...is hopefully a better tip. Servers who excel at those things make more money, it is a fact.

Take that away and you would get a bunch of apathetic late teen/ early twenties who couldn't care less if you get that refill of blue cheese before you finish your wings.

Why isn't that true in any other profession? Should I tip my insurance guy to get better service? Would an insurance professional who deals with employees do a better job if the company cut their salary 20% and asked customers to fill the gap with optional payments?

[digamma]

Hey! Good news!

I sold my house $95,000, and I was so excited I tipped my real estate agent $5,000!

[digamma]

(In other words, I paid a commission on a $100,000 sale.)

Same difference really. It is all about incentives. There are obviously lots of different models for compensation and providing incentives to employees, but the service industry seems to have landed on, and we, as consumers, have seemed to accept the tip model.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by molson

Should I tip my insurance guy to get better service? Would an insurance professional who deals with employees do a better job if the company cut their salary 20% and asked customers to fill the gap with optional payments?

Thats called a commission when its an insurance salesman but yes you do.

[molson]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Thats called a commission when its an insurance salesman but yes you do.

Commissions aren't be based on customer discretion.

Edit: But in terms of incentives, insurance salesman were a bad example. But there's plenty of professions that interact with customers in some capacity where the tip culture hasn't developed.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

Why isn't that true in any other profession? Should I tip my insurance guy to get better service? Would an insurance professional who deals with employees do a better job if the company cut their salary 20% and asked customers to fill the gap with optional payments?

For a few reasons.

To me the biggest one is the age/ maturity level of the employees. I'll use your insurance professional as an example. That is likely their career. They want to do well, get promoted, move up the chain, get more business, referrals, etc...That is their incentive.

Your average 20 something server just wants to make it through the shift and get some beers. This isn't any kind of career for 99% of them, there is a reason why the turnover rate is so high.

And I would also argue you do see it in other businesses, maybe not as much though.

The problem with your statement is you are looking at it as a career, and for most it isn't, it is a way to make some quick and easy money.

[molson]

Originally Posted by digamma

but the service industry seems to have landed on, and we, as consumers, have seemed to accept the tip model.

In a few areas of customer service, but not all. Not fast food, or cashiers, or janitorial staffs, or those who actually prepare the food, or security, etc.

For the others, I too have accepted the tip model. I'm a great tipper. That's part of the annoyance I have with all this. Those who have a conscience subsidize the services of those who don't. That's the business model. I can live with it at restaurants and am not going to take any kind of stand there. The restaurant industry has won. I just really don't want the tipping culture to expand any more.

It's kind of similar to how I feel about piracy. It's really a choice whether to pay for content. Those who choose to pay ultimately subsidize the entertainment of those who don't want to pay. So you have to choose between being ethical and paying in a disproportionate share compared to other people. I'll usually choose to tip, and to pay for the content, even though it leaves me annoyed at the deadbeats, the pirates, and the businesses who take advantage. It's a great system for those deadbeats and pirates. And it's great for the businesses to rely on those with ethics and a conscious to pay some of their expenses.

[INDalltheway]

What are our thoughts on tipping carryout?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

What are our thoughts on tipping carryout?

1000x no

I tip the HS girl at the pizza place $0.60 cents a week but that's because she brings my pizza to the table and it works out to a round dollar amount that way.

[timmae]

A clean room at a hotel is kinda expected, right? If I am there for several days and get better than average service then yes (or for some above and beyond reasons that soeme have mentioned). Otherwise... thanks for doing your job.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Without tipping you would rarely get good service. The incentive to be friendly, prompt, go above and beyond, etc...is hopefully a better tip. Servers who excel at those things make more money, it is a fact.

Take that away and you would get a bunch of apathetic late teen/ early twenties who couldn't care less if you get that refill of blue cheese before you finish your wings.

No, actually, it turns out that there's a growing mountain of evidence that it's not at all true that increased tips gives better service:
Tipless restaurants: The Linkery’s owner explains why abolishing tipping made service better.

Or the much more interesting set of stories about how it's discriminatory and how one owner had two restaurants, one with tipping and one without and the results:
Observations From A Tipless Restaurant, Part 1: Overview / Jay Porter

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Marmel

A lot of cheap bastards at FOFC. You do all realize that if there was no tipping, then the restaurants/hotels/etc. would just raise their prices so they could pay their employees more?

Yes, which they damn well should rather than relying on social pressure. That way it's the customer's fault if they aren't paid well rather than the company that is responsible for PAYING THEIR WAGES.

SI

[digamma]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

What are our thoughts on tipping carryout?

We have about 3 places in our neighborhood where we regularly get take out. I tip generously there for a few reasons. They give us good food which keeps us coming back. They know me and take an interest in my kids. And they are locally owned and I like supporting them.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is.

I doubt the guy in question would flaunt it if were actually illegal. The place in question doesn't have wait staff, per say. You order and pay at a cash register. The kitchen staff brings the food and your drink to your table and the cashier checks regularly for drinks that need refilled. The place is cash only and all tips are handled by placing money in a tip jar by the cash register.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

What are our thoughts on tipping carryout?

typically no.

A copule of places where I've had people go above & beyond the norm with special care in packing an order to-go or something like that, yeah, I've done it.
But typically, no.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by digamma

We have about 3 places in our neighborhood where we regularly get take out. I tip generously there for a few reasons. They give us good food which keeps us coming back. They know me and take an interest in my kids. And they are locally owned and I like supporting them.

+1 esp. with the locally-owned places. It's in my self interest to help ensure that the amazing local pizza shop in town stays in business.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Marmel

A lot of cheap bastards at FOFC. You do all realize that if there was no tipping, then the restaurants/hotels/etc. would just raise their prices so they could pay their employees more?

And I'm fine with that. My client would cover the increased hotel cost. But I don't feel like paying $400 a year on tipping the hotel staff (who makes more than minimum wage) out of my own pocket while on business. Even $1 per day puts me out about $200/yr. That's not chump change.

Besides, I am (or my client is) paying often $200+/night on my hotel room. Isn't a clean bed and clean towels to be expected in that price?

[timmae]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Besides, I am (or my client is) paying often $200+/night on my hotel room. Isn't a clean bed and clean towels to be expected in that price?

I'd be interested to know the difference in wages between a janitorial/cleaning person at the local Motel 8 ($50/night) vs a high end chain/boutique hotel ($300/night). I also think it is part of the implied value of going with the higher rates hotels.

On a side note, the Congress Plaza Hotel cleaning staff was on strike for about 10 years. The strike ended last year without any concessions being made by the hotel management. Um... yeah.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

And I'm fine with that. My client would cover the increased hotel cost. But I don't feel like paying $400 a year on tipping the hotel staff (who makes more than minimum wage) out of my own pocket while on business. Even $1 per day puts me out about $200/yr. That's not chump change.

Besides, I am (or my client is) paying often $200+/night on my hotel room. Isn't a clean bed and clean towels to be expected in that price?

I agree with this.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by timmae

On a side note, the Congress Plaza Hotel cleaning staff was on strike for about 10 years. The strike ended last year without any concessions being made by the hotel management. Um... yeah.

So the staff went on strike, and management figured out they got along fine with out the workers. The problem with this is what?

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

And I'm fine with that. My client would cover the increased hotel cost. But I don't feel like paying $400 a year on tipping the hotel staff (who makes more than minimum wage) out of my own pocket while on business. Even $1 per day puts me out about $200/yr. That's not chump change.

Besides, I am (or my client is) paying often $200+/night on my hotel room. Isn't a clean bed and clean towels to be expected in that price?

I agree with Blackadar. I travel and stay in hotels 132+ days a year and with costs avg around $150+ a night per room which I am reimbursed on. Throw in a $2 tip a day and I am now shelling out $260 a year on money I can't get back.

Other issues I have with this:

• Most bedding isn't changed daily in Hotels anymore unless you check out, meaning I am sleeping in the same bedding and they are making my bed.
• Towels, if not left on the floor are folded quickly and put back on the rack, again reusing
• They are now in essence vacuuming my room, which I haven't made dirty

To me, they are paid above minimum wage to do a fairly easy job. Granted it's not grandiose, but they are taken care of and in certain areas they are union and taken care of there.

I have been traveling for work for almost my entire professional career and it is a solid stance I have taken for the longest time (I used to tip the staff, but service has gone downhill since the "green" movement)

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Had something hit my Facebook feed the other day from someone whom I haven't had contact with since high school. They were bitching about people tipping them with credit/debit cards. Gist of it was to always remember, if you tip someone with a card that you should always tip them more because that money gets attached to their wages and they have to pay taxes on it. Definitely pissed me off when I read it.

You mean they are obligated to pay the taxes that they already should be paying! Oh heavens! The nerve!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

You mean they are obligated to pay the taxes that they already should be paying! Oh heavens! The nerve!

I feel like if I tip in cash by that logic I should be tipping less than 15% in order to equalize for the fact that they're not going to be paying taxes on it apparently.

Right??

Turnabout is fair play.

Seriously, this just occurred to me.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by molson

It's kind of similar to how I feel about piracy. It's really a choice whether to pay for content. Those who choose to pay ultimately subsidize the entertainment of those who don't want to pay. So you have to choose between being ethical and paying in a disproportionate share compared to other people. I'll usually choose to tip, and to pay for the content, even though it leaves me annoyed at the deadbeats, the pirates, and the businesses who take advantage. It's a great system for those deadbeats and pirates. And it's great for the businesses to rely on those with ethics and a conscious to pay some of their expenses.

Was exactly my thinking too.

However, I guess if a musician had to personally hand you their album, there would be a lot less theft.

For me, it is a system of massive inequality. Tipping does not guarantee the same pay for the same work. It is left to the discriminating preferences of the customer. I assume that given the choice the owners benefit more from the tipping culture than the servers, thus it will never change.

[Blackadar]

I also love how the tipping percentage continues to rise for waitstaff. It used to be 10% was acceptable, then 15% was considered a "good" tip, now you have many people saying 18% minimum, 20% is normal and 25% for good service. It's getting more and more absurd.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I also love how the tipping percentage continues to rise for waitstaff. It used to be 10% was acceptable, then 15% was considered a "good" tip, now you have many people saying 18% minimum, 20% is normal and 25% for good service. It's getting more and more absurd.

I wonder if churches feel any pressure to raise their tithing expectations? I mean if the stoner waiter who forgot my drink order gets 18%, God should at least get 12%

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I also love how the tipping percentage continues to rise for waitstaff. It used to be 10% was acceptable, then 15% was considered a "good" tip, now you have many people saying 18% minimum, 20% is normal and 25% for good service. It's getting more and more absurd.

For me the baseline is 20% and always has been. From there I take it up and down depending on service. I have dropped my tip % to as low as 10% and I have had an amazing night where I was footing the bill as a last hurrah at a company and the wait staff was amazing and I tipped 35%.

I understand how they are paid (I bussed as a teen, one of my first jobs and waitresses split their tips with us if we kept their sections hopping), I hate how they are paid and wouldn't mind paying the higher prices eating out if they were paid appropriately and tips were eliminated all together. It will never happen, but it's a dream...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I also love how the tipping percentage continues to rise for waitstaff. It used to be 10% was acceptable, then 15% was considered a "good" tip, now you have many people saying 18% minimum, 20% is normal and 25% for good service. It's getting more and more absurd.

When was 10% acceptable?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

For me the baseline is 20% and always has been. From there I take it up and down depending on service. I have dropped my tip % to as low as 10% and I have had an amazing night where I was footing the bill as a last hurrah at a company and the wait staff was amazing and I tipped 35%.

I understand how they are paid (I bussed as a teen, one of my first jobs and waitresses split their tips with us if we kept their sections hopping), I hate how they are paid and wouldn't mind paying the higher prices eating out if they were paid appropriately and tips were eliminated all together. It will never happen, but it's a dream...

Except socially, the baseline has never been 20% until very recently. 50-60 years ago 10% was pretty standard. Then it rose to 15% somewhere between the 50s and the 70s. Now it's 20% and some people are arguing that it should be 25%? Hell, some restaurants in Manhattan are suggesting 30%!!! That's just absurd. Hell, my clients won't even reimburse anything higher than 18-20% (depending on the client). Now remember we're talking about a percentage on the bill, so someone can't site cost-of-living as the reason to raise the number. The raw dollars have gone up as the price of the food has gone up!

What about the states where the minimum wage is above $2.13? In California the minimum is $9 an hour. 20% on top of that? Damn, must be nice to be a waiter there! In Florida it's $4.91/hr. FL can be a pretty cheap state to live in, so we're not talking about needing a higher base to support the cost of living. How should the higher base factor in?

In short, "tipcreep" is getting out of hand. I say 15%!

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Now it's 20% and some people are arguing that it should be 25%? Hell, some restaurants in Manhattan are suggesting 30%!!! That's just absurd.

In short, "tipcreep" is getting out of hand. I say 15%!

Baseline should stay where it is at, I don't think it should creep anymore, so I do agree with you there. And 25-30% constantly when the service is deteriorating in most locales, hell no.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

In California the minimum is $9 an hour. 20% on top of that? Damn, must be nice to be a waiter there! ]

There are no waiters there, just actors.

[molson]

Has anyone ever worked as a waiter at a high-end restaurant? I've always wondered how much you could make at a place like that in an era of 25%+ tips and huge bills. Obviously, they're not hiring waiters off the street. But some of them must do really well.

[Coffee Warlord]

Secondhand info, but I've been told several of the experienced waiters at Wildfire (a higher end steakhouse) clear about 70k / year, if not more.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

Has anyone ever worked as a waiter at a high-end restaurant? I've always wondered how much you could make at a place like that in an era of 25%+ tips and huge bills. Obviously, they're not hiring waiters off the street. But some of them must do really well.

You can do realy well.

My ex worked summers at an upscale seafood place on the Jersey Shore about 15 years ago. The type of place people parked their very expensive boats and ate at. On a good night she would make over $300.

I bartended in the same shore town and on a bad night made over $300. So combined in the summer we were bringin in 2-3K a week, mostly cash.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by molson

Has anyone ever worked as a waiter at a high-end restaurant? I've always wondered how much you could make at a place like that in an era of 25%+ tips and huge bills. Obviously, they're not hiring waiters off the street. But some of them must do really well.

$80k - $150k.

Waiting Tables at Eleven Madison Park, Per Se, Alinea Becomes Career Path - WSJ

I heard that the staff at Bern's Steak House in Tamp make about $100k/yr. Remember that a good portion of that money isn't taxed.

[Lathum]

Keep in mind, waiting tables at a high end restaurant is every bit as skilled a profession as any other profession. It is more than just taking a food order and bringing the food from the kitchen.

I waited tables at a very high end country club and there is a lot that goes into it.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by molson

Has anyone ever worked as a waiter at a high-end restaurant? I've always wondered how much you could make at a place like that in an era of 25%+ tips and huge bills. Obviously, they're not hiring waiters off the street. But some of them must do really well.

Rendevouz in Memphis have waiters pulling down 6 figures a year and the waiting list to work there is long.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

For me the baseline is 20% and always has been.

Same here (it's also easy to calculate ).

I hate how they are paid and wouldn't mind paying the higher prices eating out if they were paid appropriately and tips were eliminated all together. It will never happen, but it's a dream...

Interestingly in some states they are paid appropriately. I had no idea until someone mentioned California they get paid regular min wage...

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

Of course, I live in GA where they get paid $2.13... I think tipping culture will end when it becomes a federal rule to pay servers the fed min wage. Right now, the patchwork of states makes it a strange situation to eliminate tipping altogether.

[Logan]

Do you Californians tip differently than you would if you previously lived elsewhere, or are traveling?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Logan

Do you Californians tip differently than you would if you previously lived elsewhere, or are traveling?

It's a good question. Ostensibly the reason to tip is to ensure service, but the real reason you'll hear is so people can actually make money at their jobs because restaurants don't pay their workers. With wait staff already making $9/hr in CA and that being factored into the price of your food, do you still leave 15%? Seems like double-dipping to me...or more tipcreep!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

It's a good question. Ostensibly the reason to tip is to ensure service, but the real reason you'll hear is so people can actually make money at their jobs because restaurants don't pay their workers. With wait staff already making $9/hr in CA and that being factored into the price of your food, do you still leave 15%? Seems like double-dipping to me...or more tipcreep!

I bet this doesn't even register with most people in CA, but it's a good point.

[chadritt]

I honestly dont know that anyone could live off $9/hour in LA for long but I didnt realize they were making that much.

[Scarecrow]

My tipping philosophy:

I take the sales tax (7.9% here), double it, and adjust the total bill either up or down to the nearest dollar based on service.

$50 meal
$3.95 tax
$53.95 pre-tip
$7.05-8.05 tip (14.1%-16.1%)
$61.00 - $62.00 final bill