UFO's - aliens here & now

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

It would be great if there was a congressional investigation that included select congress AND select reporters from NYT, WaPo, Vice etc. The reporters would be privy to everything and free to write their own findings. If they all come back pretty much consistent (except for some anomalies), I'll take that as truth.

This is one case in which there is a case to be made for not being transparent IMO. These kinds of discoveries would be a national security issue.

I have no opposition to the whistleblower, but at the same time the statements made are simply not believable IMO. The idea that several, at a minimum, world governments all know about this and have kept a conspiracy of silence over several decades is just almost impossible. It's right up there with Illuminati/shadow-government conspiracy theories in believability. You have to believe that there are super-powerful shadowy figures behind the scenes pulling the strings and allowing the current level of 'public dysfunction' in the way governments operate as a smokescreen for the fact that the really know exactly what they are doing and are much better at utilizing their power than it appears. In practice, large conspiracies do not successfully maintain secrecy for a long period of time. They are either smaller, or accomplish their goal quickly, or fail because they are revealed.

[Edward64]

Another congressional hearing ...

MSN

The House Oversight Committee is set to hold an extraordinary hearing featuring three former military officers who have made eyebrow-raising statements about UFOs in recent years.

David Grusch, a former intelligence official, alleges that elements of the U.S. government oversee an illegal, decades-long UFO crash retrieval and reverse-engineering program.

Former U.S. Navy commander David Fravor, a Top Gun-trained ex-squadron commander, was one of four aviators who observed in person an object demonstrating apparently physics-defying maneuvers off the coast of San Diego in 2004.

Ryan Graves, another former Navy fighter pilot, is among dozens of aviators who observed unidentified objects exhibiting remarkable flight characteristics daily off the U.S. East Coast in 2014-2015. Graves is the executive director of Americans for Safe Aerospace.

I still hold that if we really want to get to the bottom of this, we need below.

Originally Posted by Edward64
It would be great if there was a congressional investigation that included select congress AND select reporters from NYT, WaPo, Vice etc. The reporters would be privy to everything and free to write their own findings. If they all come back pretty much consistent (except for some anomalies), I'll take that as truth.

[flere-imsaho]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the best evidence we have that aliens don't exist is that Trump would never have shut up about it once he found out upon becoming President.

Or is it?

Remember the picture of Trump & Obama together in the White House just after Trump won the election in 2016? This one:



You've got a pretty uncharacteristically glum Trump there. At the time there was speculation that Trump got "sonned" by Obama and the enormity of the situation overtook him. Again, uncharacteristic. Even when being deposed (pre-Presidency, when there was at least a hint of danger), Trump was always either confident or overconfident.

So, what shook him?



But not little gray or green men, or knowledge of recovered flying saucers at Area 51, no, something considerably more sinister, shocking, and, quite frankly, demoralising. And with this knowledge we not only explain Trump, but in fact all Presidents going back to Eisenhower. Come with me down the rabbit hole....


We all know about Roswell, right? The supposed weather balloon crash in 1947 that precipitated a short-lived craze for UFOs and then has been in and out of the imagination ever since? Well, huge surprise, but it was a crashed alien vessel, in this case an alien probe. The real aliens arrived in 1955 when transmissions over the summer to both U.S. and Soviet Union central commands (the aliens having determined that these were the two powers of note) resulted in separate meetings in the Autumn.



For the U.S. a cover story of President Eisenhower suffering a heart attack in Colorado in late September (and needing 6 weeks to recover) allowed the President to travel to Area 51 to meet the alien emissaries. The resulting shock of the aliens' demands and demonstration of their a) overwhelming firepower and b) insidious and unstoppable psychological technology not only did affect his health, demonstrated by a stroke in 1957, but also caused him to greatly increase his drinking habit, including as noted by an observer on his state visit to England in 1959: "General Howard Snyder, recalled that Eisenhower "'drank several gin-and-tonics, and one or two gins on the rocks ... three or four wines with the dinner.'"



Little is known about how the Soviet meeting went, but intelligence agencies do know for certain, based on interrogation of ex-Soviet scientists, that the supposed testing of the Soviet's first hydrogen bomb in November, 1955, was actually a demonstration of the aliens' firepower to a recalcitrant Krushchev, who had only gained power in January of that year and was concerned that any show of weakness would embolden other members of the top echelon of Soviet leaders. In fact he was correct, and survived a coup attempt in 1957 only to lose face again when rivals mounted an ill-advised attempt to treat with the aliens themselves at the Dylatov Pass in 1959. When Breshnev took power in 1964, it was with the aliens' support.



It should surprise no one, of course, that Kennedy was assassinated on the aliens' command, as the over-confident young President had long thought he could strike successfully at the aliens. In fact, the Cuban Missile Crisis, far from being an altercation between the two superpowers, was an attempt to concentrate firepower for an attack on an underground facility beneath the Gulf of Mexico that the aliens were using as a main base (with a hyperloop-style connection to Area 51).

[Of note, years later, the Deepwater Horizon explosion did not occur from faulty drilling, but from accidentally hitting a support structure for the hyperloop-style connection.]

LBJ chose not to run for re-election in 1968 because he was worn out from the stress of knowing what the aliens were already doing to society and laying the groundwork for the eventual extermination of the human race. Nixon's reaction was to go to any means necessary to win re-election, feeling that only he could successfully deal with the aliens. When it became clear that his actions would result in his loss of the Presidency, he turned to alcoholism before resigining.

Ford & Carter never knew the truth, with a coterie of top intelligence civil servants deciding they weren't serious enough men to know. The same was true for Reagan, but in his case, his cabinet of experienced civil servants and politicians, a few key of whom already knew the truth, decided not to tell him. When he found out by accident after the 1984 election, the shock accelerated his mental decline.



George H.W. Bush also felt the stress from the knowledge (he had known the truth as Director of the CIA for Ford in 1976 and agreed to keep the knowledge from Ford) and chose not to run for re-election. It was also during his Presidency that the aliens, who had tolerated the Space Shuttle program, demanded that it be gradually shut down, meaning that Endeavor was the last Shuttle to be delivered in 1991. The aliens then drove their point home years later with the Columbia disaster.



Clinton found out late in his first term when intelligence leaders determine he was likely to win re-election and his subsequent disinterest in governing in favor of more "earthly" pleasures was his reaction.



George W. Bush, like Reagan, did not find out until his second term as old hands such as Cheney kept the information from him. Finding out in 2006, Bush broke ties with Cheney over keeping the information from him, and never actually met with the aliens, retiring after his term to painting and time on his ranch.

Obama found out early, and soon ditched his grandiose progressive plans in favor of legislation such as the ACA which wouldn't solve long-term societal problems but would ostensibly make life easier for Americans in specific and humans in general until the endgame of the aliens' involvement on Earth.


Which brings us back to Trump. The shock of learning what the aliens were capable of, were already doing, and the details of their endgame turned this bombastic but generally in-control character into a raging lunatic whose irrationality has only increased over the intervening years. Observers ascribe his public belief that he will not be held accountable for the actions in his Presidency to either his overweening confidence or unbelievable delusion, when in reality Trump knows that it doesn't matter anyway.

Similarly Biden, whose unwillingness to overly celebrate conquering COVID-19 (again, aliens) is yet a mere sign of his understanding that his only job is to try and make the remaining few years for humanity as comfortable as possible thus the programs to combat inflation and forgive debt that will balloon the bills the government owes but knows it will never have to pay.



And so, as we swelter through a record-breaking summer (again, aliens, caused by their machinery starting to come on-line), spare a thought for Mr. Trump and all his predecessors, who were all, in their own ways, casualties of forces beyond their control, expressed in a variety of ways by a variety of men, all martyrs for the human race.

[Brian Swartz]

You put far too much effort into that post. Well done.

[CrimsonFox]

i believe everything fiere has ever said. I was a believer from the start

[flere-imsaho]

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

It's more comforting to think of God vs some nerdy, fat-ass programmer maintaining this simulation while dripping pieces of philly cheesesteak sandwich (or sushi) over his keyboard.

Okay, find a couple more of these and I'll concede we are in a simulation

James Webb Space Telescope spies cosmic question mark in deep space | Space

[GrantDawg]

Those are where quest givers are.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Those are where quest givers are.

[Edward64]

His work on the meteor fragments has been reported for the past couple years but is coming to a head with a formal paper next month.

Harvard scientist Avi Loeb claims he may have uncovered proof of alien life and will reveal it next month - saying we should WELCOME the news | Daily Mail Online

Harvard scientist Avi Loeb claims he may have uncovered proof of alien life and will reveal it next month - saying we should WELCOME the news

Basically, are the meteor fragments naturally occurring or were they engineered/made.

'This object was moving very fast, faster than 95 percent of the stars near the sun, and it also had material strength tougher than all the rocks we had seen over the past decade in the NASA catalogue,' said Loeb.

'So there is a chance, I wouldn't quantify it, that it is different from a rock,' the scientist added. 'It's definitely not a rock of the type we are familiar with.'

Loeb said that if the analysis shows signs that IM1 was engineered, it could offer evidence on extraterrestrial life.

There are others also researching the fragments

Loeb's colleagues in Germany, Papua New Guinea and at two top universities in the United States are now busy scrutinizing the spheres to determine if their atomic isotopes, chemical composition and other details can prove an otherworldly origin.

'We are in the process of finding out, within a month or so, what this meteor was made of and whether it is perhaps technological in origin or not,' Loeb said.

But hopium aside, the odds of a meteor, containing "man-made" engineered materials, and so happens to burn up entering Earth in the vastness of space & celestial movement is ... astronomical to the nth degree.

Spoiler

Unless, of course, the meteor isn't really a meteor but an interstellar ship/probe that was purposely sent to Earth

[Ghost Econ]

UFO Reddit is losing its shit over a 10 year old CGI video of a plane getting zapped out of the air by 3 aliens. They're convinced it's more likely the Malaysian air plane was teleported by aliens than that it crashed in the middle of a giant ocean.

[Edward64]

So you nice clear pictures? Here's nice clear pictures. I knew it.

Kinda looks like ET's ancestors had visited before.

'Alien' bodies with three-fingered hands are presented by UFO expert at Mexican congress - with the 'non-humans' found in Peru said to be 1,000 years old | Daily Mail Online

The researchers made the extraordinary claim that the corpses, recovered from a mine in Cusco, Peru, had a genetic composition 30% different to that of human beings - which they said shows the bodies are another species.

Carbon dating by the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM) found the bodies, pictured with three-fingered hands, no teeth and stereoscopic vision, were more than 1,000 years old.

[Brian Swartz]

I'm very suspicious, even before reading the history of the people involved which makes me more so. I'd give this upwards of 99% of being a fraudulent claim at this point.

Carbon dating would I think be useless in this case if they were in fact some other species, since we wouldn't know how much carbon to expect them to have before they died. More importantly, who found them and when, having more reputable scientists assess the work, etc. When a major archaeological find occurs you typically don't find out about when it's presented to some governmental body. It's reported immediately when it's discovered in the field, so it can be verified and protocols can be followed.

[Edward64]

It would be fantastic if samples were examined by other researchers and corroborated. But yeah, wouldn't be surprised if there was a logical, non-alien explanation.

Another pic for better context on size

[GrantDawg]

There is an easy way to prove this. Did he try to phone home?

[Kodos]

Honestly, I hope the first documented aliens are a little more impressive looking.

[albionmoonlight]

I think that whatever aliens are are going to be weirder than anything we've come up with so far.

[Ghost Econ]

Best. Coffee. Table. Ever.

[sovereignstar v2]

Apparently these were debunked two years ago. I didn't watch the video myself, but instead listened to a description. Strange coincidence that they have human bones, just in a different order. Some are even backwards lol.

[Edward64]

Aw man. Crap

Was really hoping for a breakthrough

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Aw man. Crap

Was really hoping for a breakthrough

Are you amplified to rock, are you hoping for a contact?

[Brian Swartz]

Even worse than I thought. Impressive.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Are you amplified to rock, are you hoping for a contact?

Nope, but this ...

Though you've seen them, please don't say a word. What I don't know, I have never shared

[Ghost Econ]

I mean, if you go on Reddit the debunk is really for a totally different set of Peruvian aliens... and even if the debunk is real then explain the DNA... and really, who would go through all the trouble of faking this so it has to be real... and also you're just a government plant in conjunction with the saucer people and the Rand Corporation.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Are you amplified to rock, are you hoping for a contact?

I'm literally listening to Bee Thousand as I read this. The matrix is broken.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

I mean, if you go on Reddit the debunk is really for a totally different set of Peruvian aliens... and even if the debunk is real then explain the DNA... and really, who would go through all the trouble of faking this so it has to be real... and also you're just a government plant in conjunction with the saucer people and the Rand Corporation.

Hah. I'll have to check it out.

Ryan Graves was there but issued below statement pretty quickly. No idea what happened but suspect he got blindsided to appear.

In a statement published to X, formerly Twitter, Graves, executive director of Americans for Safe Aerospace (ASA), said that he agreed to testify before the Mexican Congress in hopes of keeping "up the momentum of government interest in pilot experiences with [unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP)]." The military often refers to UFOs as UAP.

"Unfortunately, yesterday's demonstration was a huge step backwards for this issue," Graves added.

"My testimony centered on sharing my experience and the [unidentified aerial phenomena] reports I hear from commercial and military aircrew through ASA's witness program," read the statement. "I will continue to raise awareness of UAP as an urgent matter of aerospace safety, national security, and science, but I am deeply disappointed by this unsubstantiated stunt."

[Edward64]

NASA had a press conference today on UAPs. Nothing new.

NASA Didn’t Find Aliens—but if You See Any UFOs, Holler | WIRED

NASA administrator Bill Nelson, speaking at a press conference this morning. “The top takeaway from the study is that there is a lot more to learn. The NASA study did not find any evidence that UAP have an extraterrestrial origin, but we don’t know what these UAP are.” Nelson described the team’s project as part of a broader effort “to shift the conversation about UAP from sensationalism to science,” to reduce the stigma associated with making UAP reports, and “to make sure that information is shared transparently around the world.”

NASA announced the 16 members of this team last fall, which includes astrophysicists, a former astronaut, officials from the Federal Aviation Administration, a commercial aerospace executive, an oceanographer, an electrical engineer, and a science journalist.

The article does add a lot more context on what's going on now. It's a good read. But ...

... one thing the article did not share but I read in another article. The cost of the NASA findings was $100k. Honestly, there is no freaking way $100k will produce anything with confidence. That's like less than a week's budget in some of my projects. WTF

NASA panel responds to controversial 1,000-year-old 'alien corpses' displayed in Mexico

NASA's highly anticipated briefing on Thursday unveiled findings from a year-long, $100,000 study on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs), or UFOs.

[Edward64]

Article is about how NASA could/would announce if alien life has been found. Basically, the initial "signs" probably won't be incontrovertible proof so it'll be done in CoLD steps/stages (confidence of life detection).

MSN

Maybe the James Webb Space Telescope detects a telltale molecule in the atmosphere of a distant Earth-like planet. Maybe Mars samples from the Perseverance rover reach Earth in a decade, and scientists find fossils of ancient microbes inside them.

Many astrobiologists (exactly what it sounds like — people who study the idea of biology beyond Earth) think that evidence of extraterrestrial life could turn up soon.

But it's unlikely that any evidence would be completely, irrefutably, obviously aliens. Scientists will probably disagree, and won't be 100% confident. That could be hard to explain to the public.

I earlier used the example of the Sep 24 return of asteroid samples, so below caught my eye ...

It's called the "confidence of life detection" (CoLD) scale, rating scientific confidence in any potential alien-life discovery on a scale of one to seven. A possible detection can climb to higher levels of confidence as evidence builds

For example, a level one detection might be the discovery of a molecule that could be related to life inside a Perseverance Mars sample. The evidence would graduate to level two once scientists confirm there was no contamination in the sample, or the instruments involved, that could have influenced their findings. By ruling out non-biological sources of the molecule, or by confirming that it came from an environment suitable for life, scientists could move it further up the scale.

[Brian Swartz]

Not that it's an original thought at all, but I think a big part of the issue with stuff like the Peru thing is just that in some corners the desire to find life reaches an unhealthy level, causing people to spend too much time and energy chasing things that aren't realistic and latching on to anything they find because they want it to be true too badly. Up to point, the less invested we are in finding life, the more likely we are to find it if it is there to be found.

[Edward64]

I didn't view all the video rebuttal but skipped around. From what I saw, the aliens were clearly a fraud/scam not an overzealous true believer.

[whomario]

The origin of the fake unboxed aliens is wilder than actual aliens - Vox

Some more on this hoax/grift.

[Edward64]

Reuters is on it ...

... nothing new that we don't already suspect, but some more pics

Exclusive-A close encounter with the 'alien bodies' in Mexico




Aliens & sunflowers.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

From what I saw, the aliens were clearly a fraud/scam not an overzealous true believer.

I think that's true. In case it was unclear, I wasn't referring to the people who do those kinds of things, but the larger communities that react to them.

[Edward64]

Why did it take the "experts" 4 months to proclaim this.

It's obvious they are trying to hide something.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/peru-do...c-experts-say/

Experts with Peru's prosecutor's office analyzed the seized dolls, and forensic archaeologist Flavio Estrada presented the results of their findings at a press conference for the Peruvian Ministry of Culture on Friday.
:
"They are not extraterrestrials, they are not intraterrestrials, they are not a new species, they are not hybrids, they are none of those things that this group of pseudo-scientists who for six years have been presenting with these elements," Estrada said.

The humanoid three-fingered dolls consisted of earth-bound animal and human bones assembled with modern synthetic glue, Estrada elaborated. It isn't the first time Maussan has had an otherworldly corpse debunked — he made similar claims in 2017.

[Brian Swartz]

Copium on parade.

[Edward64]

FWIW there seems to be something behind this. Not conclusive and more to come but it's not one of those History Channel speculation.

No, the James Webb Space Telescope hasn’t found life out there—at least not yet | Ars Technica

The rumors have been out there for a while now, percolating through respectable corners of the astronomy and astrobiological community, that the James Webb Space Telescope has found a planet with strong evidence of life.

Although she didn't say so, Colón is certainly referring to K2-18 b, an exoplanet 8.6 times as massive as Earth that is 120 light years from our Solar System. Astronomers believe this may be a "hycean" exoplanet, meaning it has water oceans on its surface and a hydrogen-rich atmosphere.

Astronomers had previously studied this planet with the Hubble Space Telescope, but their interest was magnified when the Webb telescope—which became operational last year after launching in late 2022—made some intriguing observations. Among the molecules found by Webb was dimethyl sulfide.

So what is dimethyl sulfide? It's an organic compound that you may have smelled if you've ever cooked cabbage. It is emitted by phytoplankton in the Earth's oceans as part of their metabolism process. Critically, on Earth, dimethyl sulfide is only produced by life. That does not prove the existence of life on K2-18 b—but if dimethyl sulfide exists there, it is certainly a hair-raising clue.

[Thomkal]

i think until we either have a telescope 'light years' beyond even what james webb can do, or can actually go to these planets systems itself, it's very hard to believe that something so far out there can be earth like or not. i mean look how much we didn't know about the likes of jupiter, saturn, and their moons until we actually got out there with technology good enough to study them.

[Edward64]

Yeah, I hear you.

The article didn't go into how they know the "dimethyl sulfide" supposedly exist or was detected. It's 120 light years away so it's "relatively" close to Earth but still.

But from what I've read so far, I do think this is higher quality possibility than the History Channel stupid "could it be possible" BS.

[GrantDawg]

Odds are there is some planets out there that have life on them.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The article didn't go into how they know the "dimethyl sulfide" supposedly exist or was detected. It's 120 light years away so it's "relatively" close to Earth but still.

But from what I've read so far, I do think this is higher quality possibility than the History Channel stupid "could it be possible" BS.

Definitely true on the second part.

On the first one, it's by analyzing the light that comes through the planet's atmosphere and comparing it to light that did not. Molecules in the atmosphere absorb different wavelengths of light, and one of James Webb's missions has been to do such analyses, which are collectively known as spectroscopy.

The quality of the data Webb can get is way better than what Hubble was able to gather on this, by design. It is also still a matter of probability, much like how we think Betelgeuse is probably only decades away from going supernova which would be the most spectacular stellar event in the history of humanity, but we can't say for certain that it's, say, 30 years or 200 years and it's probably 60-80 years from now (from our perspective, shorter obviously if you were at Betelgeuse and didn't have light lag to deal with).

The dimethyl sulfide discovery from what I've seen/read is in the range of 'fairly likely but far from certain'. If it does exist in the atmosphere, it's not a guarantee that there *is* life, but a strong indicator that the *conditions* for life may well exist.

I know it's not the answer some people want, but this is where we are; very slowly narrowing down more and more data on how common potential conditions for life exist. IMO even what GrantDawg said is premature; we have no reasonable idea how likely it is for exoplanets to have those conditions, and we are even less informed on the likelihood that life would form given the right conditions, leaving us woefully unable to give anything more than a conjecture about the likelihood of life actually existing. We have found, for example, that most of the planets we've been able to discover due to our methodology available for doing it are around red dwarf stars, which are very common in the galaxy - unfortunately red dwarf stars are not particularly good at having sizable planets in their habitable zones.

I will be very surprised if anyone alive today is still alive when we get anywhere close to a good answer to these questions. Finding microbes or whatever somewhere else in our solar system is possible in our lifetime if we invest enough in it and they happen to exist; knowing with any degree of confidence about life in another star system, that's a far larger reach.

[Edward64]

Not a fan of Boebert but hope she gets a "win" here ... I want to believe.

Lauren Boebert probes UFO experts on existence of underwater alien bases on Earth

Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.) questioned the experts during a subcommittee of the House Oversight Committee held a joint hearing in Washington, DC, on Wednesday, dubbed “Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena: Exposing the Truth.”

Lauren Boebert probes UFO experts on existence of underwater alien bases on Earth: ‘The American people are being kept in the dark’

During the hearing, dubbed “Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena: Exposing the Truth,” Boebert asked experts about “rumors that have come up” regarding “a secretive project within the Department of Defense involving the manipulation of human genetics.”

[Ghost Econ]

If there's a proving expert in Congress now that Matt Gates is leaving.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not a fan of Boebert but hope she gets a "win" here ... I want to believe.

This isn't a win, it's a horrible L. There is way too much info in the public record from various projects mapping the oceans etc. to buy into this. What we should want to believe is whatever is true (hint: it's not alien underwater bases, of all the spurious nonsense)

[albionmoonlight]

My 2c:

There is lots and lots of life in the observable universe

There is much less (though I have no idea how much less) intelligent life in the observable universe (defining intelligent somewhat arbitrarily as able to communicate via an understanding of electromagnetic radiation).

Interstellar travel is either effectively impossible or well well beyond the technology we have now. A lot depends on whether a physics exists that lets us break the speed of light barrier. The problem with that idea is that a lot of other stuff breaks or gets weird if we can do that.

So I think that it is highly unlikely that intelligent aliens have visited Earth.

[Solecismic]

I'd qualify that statement in many ways.

We think of time as a dimension, because it acts as a dimension. However, despite experimentation showing phenomena like entanglement that appear to move in time, we don't move in time and it's likely that physicists will come to understand more about quantum-level phenomena that, like relativity, show how time can appear to be stretched when observed from two different perspectives, but the here and/or now can not magically change as it does on Star Trek.

The universe is about 14 billion years old, though that measurement is irrelevant in that we think the universe has a size of about 6-7 times that amount. This means that the universe is spreading out. Otherwise, how could the Big Bang Theory be possible? And, for that matter, what is a universe? How did the material for the Big Bang accumulate in the first place? The point is that wherever we are within the universe is so far away from most other random points that communication as we understand it is not possible.

But, if you're religious (I'm not), you can believe that some force created the Big Bang. But then, how was that force created? And if you're not religious, then how could anything originate? How do you resolve this infinite conundrum?

The SETI program determined that no intelligent life form was trying to contact us at points in time which may have been billions of years ago. Why is that important? Given our understanding of the physical universe, there's a wide spectrum of potential communication. We have all sorts of devices that detect the movement of matter and a spectrum of all kinds of waves. But all we know is that at some point in time billions of years ago, no life form that understood how to transmit waves of particles was trying to communicate with anything else. And the universe could be expanding at a rate that means those waves may never reach us. And if any civilization reached the point where it could cross those boundaries, it would do so in a way that potential receivers of that communication could detect some sort of order amongst the chaos.

I think of it like a thought experiment in physics. Imagine you're in a large parking lot in the back of a truck with an open trailer. There are many other similar trucks. All the trucks have been traveling for a long time, and started at a midpoint long forgotten and they all move roughly in straight lines. You have a bucket of baseballs and are trying to throw a ball to a person in the back of another truck. You have a really good arm and can throw an infinite number of baseballs. You are continually practicing and getting stronger. You can hypothesize that there are similar people in the other trucks, also continually practicing, but they are so far away that all you can do is detect it if a baseball lands in your truck. Which is more likely - that you will finally hit another truck, or a baseball from another truck will land in your truck?

We perceive our own superiority in all things. But if life evolves elsewhere in the universe, and why wouldn't it, it is unlikely that we are the first or the best at much of anything. We are far more likely to be the backup weak-side linebacker for a Division III university than Tom Brady. The SETI experiment is almost infinitely more likely to produce results than looking for an alien Atlantis at the bottom of the ocean. It hasn't produced results.

And if it had (conspiracy theory), why keep it secret? How? Discovering something was out there billions of years ago is not threatening. It's a huge leap to go from your baseball landing in another truck to knowing that your baseball landed in another truck - that's a gap of billions of years in and of itself.

Science fiction is a lot of fun to contemplate, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how these things would work if they were even remotely possible.

Before we can contemplate conquering the universe or being conquered, we must first conquer our own egos.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

But, if you're religious (I'm not), you can believe that some force created the Big Bang. But then, how was that force created? And if you're not religious, then how could anything originate? How do you resolve this infinite conundrum?

There is no logical way to solve it. Either there is something or some group of things that never had a beginning and has always existed, or else at some point something popped into existence for no reason at all when there was just nothing before that. Neither of those possibilities compute to our finite minds.

Just to add to the many good points you've made, a lot of people have told me that if we discovered other 'advanced' life - say anything industrial age on up - in another star system it would change things forever. I think it wouldn't change a thing.

Say it was the closest star Alpha Centauri, and we wanted to communicate with them. We can't just send a radio signal over that kind of distance. You would need to physically send a ship. Fastest probes we've ever made have never, even with gravity assists and such, gotten as fast as 0.06% of the speed of light. Even if we could go an order of magnitude faster, sustain that speed for the entire journey, turn around instantly and sustain the same speed all the way back, nevermind the fuel and propulsion and pretty much everything else needed to do this is absolutely not currently remotely possible, it would still take over 700 years each way. We'd have better tech and be able to 'pass' such a ship long before it got to the destination by just waiting and improving our capabilities. There's no feasible situation in which it would even be sensible to consider mounting such a mission for centuries to come, and only then if you make very optimistic assumptions about the possibilities of developing faster travel.

So if you tell the average person 'there's advanced life of some kind on that planet in that star system, but we have no feasible way to contact or reach them for at least the next several generations, no reason to think they can reach us or would care to if they could' that would be really-super-cool for a brief period and then we'd just go on doing what we're doing now. It's just so far out of our capabilities to meaningfully interact with any civilization that doesn't actually show up in our system and announce themselves that it would be a fat lot of nothing in the big picture.

[dubb93]

It all depends on how we found out and how confident we are in our assessments. It could definitely set off a space race / militarizing of space race in a way that just doesn’t exist now. By that I mean beating that guy to their system before they get out and with bigger weapons could go from basically having no priority to becoming our number one priority very quickly.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

This isn't a win, it's a horrible L. There is way too much info in the public record from various projects mapping the oceans etc. to buy into this. What we should want to believe is whatever is true (hint: it's not alien underwater bases, of all the spurious nonsense)

I don't disagree with your conclusion "it's not alien underwater bases" but do disagree that we can conclude that because "too much info in public record ... mapping the oceans etc." Instead, I'd just say odds are against it and no real evidence (yet)

1. If an alien race is advanced enough to visit the US, they are very likely advanced enough technologically to hide from us
2. The ocean floors are certainly not nearly mapped well enough. There are some very, very deep places and wide expanse left unexplored
3. We supposedly know approx. the flight path of MAS 370. Government and private sector have spent significant sums of $, hours and our best technology to find it. And best we can do is wait for wreckage to wash ashore around Reunion island

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Interstellar travel is either effectively impossible or well well beyond the technology we have now. A lot depends on whether a physics exists that lets us break the speed of light barrier. The problem with that idea is that a lot of other stuff breaks or gets weird if we can do that.

There are thought exercises on how we can do interstellar travel without having to break the speed of light barrier. Very speculative but being tossed around.

I go back to the large technological disparity between current 2024 and let's just say 300 years ago in the 1700s (pre-industrial revolution). Things that we can do now would be unimaginable to them.

If there were more advanced alien life out there and they were 300+ years ahead of us, its not beyond the realm of possibility they've figured a way.

So I think that it is highly unlikely that intelligent aliens have visited Earth.

I don't want to but deep down, I agree with you

[Solecismic]

Light (and other electro-magnetic particles) travels at a constant speed. It takes about eight minutes for these particles to travel from the Sun to the Earth.

It is certainly within our imagination to contemplate traveling at far faster speeds. It is also certainly within our imagination to contemplate traveling in time, like Dr. Sam Beckett.

In the 1400s, Leonardo Da Vinci imagined traveling in a submarine. His concept isn't that far off from submarine travel today. Antoine de Saint-Exupery imagined space travel nearly 100 years ago. He was not the first.

When man first contemplated the universe, it was in thinking communication with heavenly creatures was the future. The sun was a god. So was the moon. We tend to fill in what we don't know with imagination. People who were sick were inhabited by malevolent spirits. More than half of the people in the world still have a fundamentalist belief system.

When children grow, their capacity for new learning is amazing. That slows down considerably, but, as adults, we gain experience and get far more done than children. The same is likely true of the human race. We are still learning at an amazing rate. That rate will not continue.

The question is whether it is possible to escape the limits of the speed of light and/or time. The latter, I'd suggest, is nonsense. If time travel were possible, we'd know, because someone would already have reversed last week's election results and Dan Quayle would not be our current president.

But it's exactly that concept that limits space travel and communication if there are, indeed, no particles that could exceed the universe's apparent speed limit. The problem is not one of imagination.