NFL Week 5

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by stevew

(0:14 - 2nd) Timeout #3 by SD at 00:14.
2nd and 1 at PIT 40
(0:14 - 2nd) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass short left to D.Woodhead ran ob at PIT 42 for -2 yards (J.Harrison)
3rd and 3 at PIT 42
(0:12 - 2nd) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass incomplete short left to D.Woodhead

?

[stevew]

It only ran off two seconds for that woodhead play.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by stevew

It only ran off two seconds for that woodhead play.

End of the first half, the play did take two seconds. Chargers tried a quick screen to the sideline and Harrison read it. The play was instant pass to Woodhead who ran out right away, nothing wrong with the clock there.

[Julio Riddols]

I wondered why San Diego didn't use Woodhead more against the Pittsburgh LBs. Gordon was clearly not getting anything done.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Yep, the clock should never have run. I can't remember if they started the clock when the ball was kicked off or after it went through the end zone, but in either of those cases, it's wrong. Home cooking did not go San Diego's way right there!

How does the NFL not control the clocks?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm not sure why people are upset. Considering how much time each play actually runs for, how is a 6 second vine or gif different than showing a minute video clip? I enjoy consuming them because they're a quick roundup of important plays, but they're pretty clearly copyright infringement.

It's a sports highlight. Highlights that are available all over the place. This isn't like being shown the ending of a movie that you'd need to pay to see otherwise. The NFL needs to get with the times and realize this is how the majority of people consume highlights online now. If the NBA can do it, and they embrace it fully and it's actually helped their social media profile, there's no reason the NFL shouldn't either.

[Grover]

Because Roger Goodell is an autocratic dickhead.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by tucker rocky

Turns out the guy had a concussion.

[sabotai]

NFL: There was clock error at end of Chargers game - NFL.com

"The official game time is kept on the stadium scoreboard, but it is the responsibility of the side judge to supervise the timing of the game. Had the side judge or any of the other six on-field officials noticed the timing error, they could have corrected it.

"The game clock is not subject to instant replay review unless there is a timing issue on the last play of the first half or the last play of the game. The performance of the clock operator and game officials will be reviewed per the standard procedure for reviewing every play of every game."

NFL clock operators are hired by the league and usually have college football officiating experience. Clock operators typically live in close geographic proximity to the stadium where they are working, though the league uses operators from outside the region of the home team's stadium during the postseason.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Logan

It's a sports highlight. Highlights that are available all over the place. This isn't like being shown the ending of a movie that you'd need to pay to see otherwise. The NFL needs to get with the times and realize this is how the majority of people consume highlights online now. If the NBA can do it, and they embrace it fully and it's actually helped their social media profile, there's no reason the NFL shouldn't either.

Highlights are available at places that pay the NFL, or done in small amounts and at least allegedly combined with added analysis so it falls under fair use. You and I can't just cut up a 3 minute highlight, add no original content, and put it on YouTube, and posting 30 6-second vines isn't any different.

I agree that I like the NBA's more enlightened policy but legally the NFL is well within its rights. (And its not like they were alone - the NCAA and UFC were also complaining about this, I know WWE does etc.)

And the idea the NFL will drive away younger fans with this is ludicrous. It's been proven again and again that people will make the extra effort - in this case going to NFL.com or their Twitter page.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Highlights are available at places that pay the NFL, or done in small amounts and at least allegedly combined with added analysis so it falls under fair use. You and I can't just cut up a 3 minute highlight, add no original content, and put it on YouTube, and posting 30 6-second vines isn't any different.

I agree that I like the NBA's more enlightened policy but legally the NFL is well within its rights. (And its not like they were alone - the NCAA and UFC were also complaining about this, I know WWE does etc.)

And the idea the NFL will drive away younger fans with this is ludicrous. It's been proven again and again that people will make the extra effort - in this case going to NFL.com or their Twitter page.

I didn't say they don't have the legal right to do so. They're welcome to. Doesn't make it any dumber for them to enforce that right when the people they are going after are doing their own marketing for them.

You have any figures on that claim BTW? Let's say the amount of Vine views of the ODB catch compared to viewers on NFL.com.

And I'm not sure who claimed this was driving away younger fans.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by sabotai

NFL: There was clock error at end of Chargers game - NFL.com

Glad to see the NFL is out in front of this! I'll never understand how the NFL stays so popular with the sheer amount on incompetence that goes into running it now?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Logan

You have any figures on that claim BTW? Let's say the amount of Vine views of the ODB catch compared to viewers on NFL.com.

And I'm not sure who claimed this was driving away younger fans.

No, just anecdotal evidence of the.amount of people who say they'll never watch the NFL again combined with TV ratings that keep going up. (But #'s on the ODB catch wouldn't matter - of course more people watched it on Vine, but if the NFL can become the only provider of gifs/vines they hope they'll get enough people conditioned to use their app or use their site first that they make up in ad revenue what they lose in free advertising. It's the old PPV vs showing games on cable debate, except the NFL isn't even charging money as far as I know - I do try to avoid them because their video player works shittily on my phone.)

And it's not here, but I've seen other places argue that "this is how young people get their highlights". Which seems eerily similar to the argument people made about how young people got music 10 years ago. People using Napster etc all complained but 99% of them (again, just a guess) happily use iTunes or Spotify now. I really hope the NFL is just trying to drive traffic to their site but let's be honest - if they charged $5/month for an app that worked well and had all the highlights most of us would pay for it. Just like one "exclusive" Thursday night game per week got NFL network into most homes.

[cuervo72]

Who is this "most?" I wouldn't pay free.99 for it.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Who is this "most?" I wouldn't pay free.99 for it.

I would say you (and me, and the average FOFC poster) are both smarter and more tech-savvy than the average NFL fan.

[cuervo72]

Which makes my luddite tendencies all the more curious!

(Seriously, I have like one app. But really I think I'm just at football saturation. If I don't see it during my 10-12 hours of Sunday viewing - or on Monday - I probably won't see it. I'll survive.)

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

(Seriously, I have like one app. But really I think I'm just at football saturation. If I don't see it during my 10-12 hours of Sunday viewing - or on Monday - I probably won't see it. I'll survive.)

This is where I'm at. If it wasn't for RedZone, I'm not sure how much NFL I would actually consume, the commercials in the games are at ridiculous levels.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

No, just anecdotal evidence of the.amount of people who say they'll never watch the NFL again combined with TV ratings that keep going up. (But #'s on the ODB catch wouldn't matter - of course more people watched it on Vine, but if the NFL can become the only provider of gifs/vines they hope they'll get enough people conditioned to use their app or use their site first that they make up in ad revenue what they lose in free advertising. It's the old PPV vs showing games on cable debate, except the NFL isn't even charging money as far as I know - I do try to avoid them because their video player works shittily on my phone.)

And it's not here, but I've seen other places argue that "this is how young people get their highlights". Which seems eerily similar to the argument people made about how young people got music 10 years ago. People using Napster etc all complained but 99% of them (again, just a guess) happily use iTunes or Spotify now. I really hope the NFL is just trying to drive traffic to their site but let's be honest - if they charged $5/month for an app that worked well and had all the highlights most of us would pay for it. Just like one "exclusive" Thursday night game per week got NFL network into most homes.

Considering the NFL didn't even have its own presence on Youtube until this year, I'm guessing it will be somewhere around 2025 before they develop their own app/site exclusively for gifs and Vines.

And I wouldn't pay $5/month for that and no one else would. I'd just watch highlights on every site that already shows highlights. If the NFL does this in any kind of way, they will run it through their already existing NFL mobile app and have it as free content for those with an NFL network subscription through their provider, like every other channel does.

[Abe Sargent]

The one good thing about my team starting 1-4 (Jaguars) and having yet another crappy season likely, is that it honestly looks like we found our guy at QB with Bortles. The offense is improving. Robinson and Hurns both look like strong guys, and Lee ain;t no slouch either. With a real stud at TE as well, in a year or two, this passing game should be really tight.

[BishopMVP]

Btw, I assume no one takes QBR seriously, but it reached an amusing new low this weekend. Tom Brady's 20-27 275 2 0 line (130.9 traditional QB rating) garnered a 24.1 and ranked 27th out of 28 QB's. Brandon Weeden, Matt Stafford were both among those higher, Brian Hoyer got a 90.1.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Btw, I assume no one takes QBR seriously, but it reached an amusing new low this weekend. Tom Brady's 20-27 275 2 0 line (130.9 traditional QB rating) garnered a 24.1 and ranked 27th out of 28 QB's. Brandon Weeden, Matt Stafford were both among those higher, Brian Hoyer got a 90.1.

Yeah, QBR is a joke.

[stevew]

I assume Nate Solder getting hurt will kinda be a big deal. I mean they might not lose any games because of it, but it will affect what they are trying to do on offense some I'd imagine

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Btw, I assume no one takes QBR seriously, but it reached an amusing new low this weekend. Tom Brady's 20-27 275 2 0 line (130.9 traditional QB rating) garnered a 24.1 and ranked 27th out of 28 QB's. Brandon Weeden, Matt Stafford were both among those higher, Brian Hoyer got a 90.1.

Roger Goddell works for ESPN stats now?

[markprior22]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

This is where I'm at. If it wasn't for RedZone, I'm not sure how much NFL I would actually consume, the commercials AND FLAGS in the games are at ridiculous levels.

Every year that passes I watch less and less NFL. Every time a play is run you have to wait to see if it will be allowed. Pass interference flags coming in 5 seconds after a play is completed. Blocking in the back on so many kick returns. Not to mention the long commercial breaks. I'm just really not interested anymore.

This will be a winter of more reading, catching up on movies, etc...which is fine with me.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Btw, I assume no one takes QBR seriously, but it reached an amusing new low this weekend. Tom Brady's 20-27 275 2 0 line (130.9 traditional QB rating) garnered a 24.1 and ranked 27th out of 28 QB's. Brandon Weeden, Matt Stafford were both among those higher, Brian Hoyer got a 90.1.

How is that even possible?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stevew

I assume Nate Solder getting hurt will kinda be a big deal. I mean they might not lose any games because of it, but it will affect what they are trying to do on offense some I'd imagine

Hurts our depth, but I think Solder's rep has exceeded his actual play for a couple years. Granted, I'm nowhere near an offensive line guru, and he's been banged up a lot (including playing through cancer for a season), but I've never really felt he's elite. Plus Marcus Cannon's pretty good for a backup and has gotten a lot of reps between Vollmer's various injuries and Belichick's recent decision to rotate O-linemen all game long. But now it really does mean Vollmer's (and Cannon) can't get banged up.

[stevew]

Well Pouncey now has an infection in his ankle and will likely miss the whole season. Should give him a bunch of time to Free Hernandez and find the real killer.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

How is that even possible?

None of the advanced stats liked Brady much this week. I think PFF gave him a +.4.

I haven't looked it over, but the reasons are usually a combination of:

1) A lot of yards after the catch. The QB in the advanced metrics doesn't give the QB a ton of credit for a swing pass that goes 35 yards.

2) Sacks against. Most view the QB being as much to blame as the offensive line on sacks and view them much harsher than incompletions.

3) poor third down conversion rate

4) Poor decisions. (Rodgers was deducted heavily in his week 3 game against the Chiefs for a dropped INT and a lost fumble that was reversed on a penalty.


I don't know what, if any, combination of those things happened this week in Dallas. (I do know that Brady had a fumble and in the advanced metrics, fumbles are counted the same no matter who recovered the ball) Manning had a .6, and a lot of that was due to 2 dropped TD passes and a dropped 40 yarder.

[sabotai]

Update on the clock issue in San Diego

Official suspended after Steelers-Chargers clock error - NFL.com

The fate of the stadium clock operator in San Diego is still being decided.

"Side judge Rob Vernatchi will not officiate in Week 6 as a result of the failure to notice that the game clock was incorrectly started late in the fourth quarter of Monday night's game between the Pittsburgh Steelers and San Diego Chargers," the statement reads. "The mistake will also impact the evaluation of the other six members of the officiating crew, led by referee Pete Morelli.

[sabotai]

As far as sacks go for Brady in the Dallas game, here's what I see watching the sack plays

1st Q, 3rd and 10 at DAL 32 (13:22) - LB came in untouched, nothing Brady could do. The sack did take them out of FG range.
1st Q, 1st and 10 at DAL 30 (10:08) - DE came from the left, Brady never saw him and he was sacked ~1 second after finishing his drop back.
2nd Q, 1st and 10 at DAL 30 (11:17) - Play action pass, Brady sets his feet at the end of his drop back and throws. Literally could not have gotten rid of the ball faster. He's hit from behind as he throws resulting in a fumble. Can't see how either the sack or the fumble is on him. The OT barely got a hand on the DE, who ran by him from his wide 9 position.
2nd Q, 3rd and 11 at NE 29 (9:49) - DE just bull rushes the OT back to Brady and sacks him. The OT barely slowed the DE down.
2nd Q, 1st and 10 at NE 45 (0:53) - Brady saw the pressure coming up the middle, scrambled to his left, right into a DE that had been blocked. I guess you can make a argument for this one being on Brady if you want to say that he should have thrown it away immediately. It looked like he had a guy to his right running a very short out route available to throw it to (or at least, sail it over his head to throw the ball away and take the incomplete pass and the hit).

And that's it. He wasn't sacked in the 2nd half.

I checked his incomplete passes. There was one almost INT. Near the end of the game, a blitzing CB got in front of a WR screen throw (off a play action) and nearly picked it off.

As for YAC, I don't think QBs should be given credit for swing or screen passes either, but for hitting a receiver in stride down field, he should get some credit. On the 59 yard TD throw to Edelman, Brady hit him with a perfect touch pass near the sideline allowing him to catch it at full speed. Several yards later, he makes a move to get by a Dallas defender. Had Brady's thrown been off the mark, Edelman has to slow down or worse, stop and wait for it, which would allow the defender to get into a better position the make the tackle. So Brady should get some credit for the YAC on that one, even the YAC that happens after Edelman's move to get by the defenders (IMO). Edelman's ability to generate YAC and ultimately get a TD happened because Brady threw a perfect pass. I can't agree with a stat that says that throw by Brady would be equal to one thrown by a QB that caused a receiver to have to stop and wait for it and was immediately tackled at the same distance down field because it's completely discounting YAC for the QB (not that anyone has said that there is one, just stating the obvious I guess).

(I didn't watch the full game, so can't comment on the rest of the plays.)

But I guess this just shows how difficult it is to do advanced stats on a sport like football.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by sabotai

But I guess this just shows how difficult it is to do advanced stats on a sport like football.

Yeah. Especially for QBs where a lot of the greatest ones do work pre-snap. Seeing something that the LB is doing and checking into a running play that gains 8 yards is great work. And maybe 30 other QBs wouldn't have seen what you saw and checked into that play. But I can't see how any advanced stat could capture that work.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Update on the clock issue in San Diego

Official suspended after Steelers-Chargers clock error - NFL.com

It's good to see that they're doing something about it. The thing that confuses me, though, is that this page from the NFL's own website says that the line judge is responsible for the clock, yet the side judge got suspended. I mean, I'm sure they got the right person, but I'm just curious if the NFL's rules digest is inaccurate or if this particular crew operates differently. Not a big deal, but it's just something I'm curious about.