07-20-2005, 11:17 AM | #151 |
Head Coach
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what is there to be proud about...they lost.
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07-20-2005, 11:18 AM | #152 | |
Hockey Boy
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
It is certainly a shame that by flying a flag you're obviously fond of and proud of some people could infer that you are a "racist dirtbag," but I don't think that people drawing inferences from symbols is part of the "world" being messed up or anything. It has nothing to do with being "PC" or overly sensitive in the "modern world." People have inferred things from symbols for ages across all cultures. It's just human nature. Even animals can see certain things (colors, shapes, objects) and infer something from them. The problem with the "world" is that some ignorant, racist dirtbags stole your symbol and adopted it to stand for their hate-filled ideas. That such people should not exist is what we should be hoping was different about the "world".
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07-20-2005, 11:20 AM | #153 | |
Coordinator
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Outstanding point. You're right on. |
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07-20-2005, 11:20 AM | #154 | |
Hockey Boy
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
I dunno. The people of Philadelphia seemed awfully proud of Rocky after he lost his first title match against Apollo Creed.
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Steve Yzerman: 1,755 points in 1,514 regular season games. 185 points in 196 postseason games. A First-Team All-Star, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, Selke Trophy winner, Masterton Trophy winner, member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, Olympic gold medallist, and a three-time Stanley Cup Champion. Longest serving captain of one team in the history of the NHL (19 seasons). |
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07-20-2005, 11:53 AM | #155 |
Rider Of Rohan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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A few comments:
1. The flag in question was a battle flag in a failed rebellion. You can call the Confederacy whatever you want, and this has been argued since the first day of its existence, but no matter how distasteful it may be, that's the reality. As such, the flag historically represents (on one level) rebellion in general and against the federal government in particular. Nothing changes that fact. 2. The entity that the flag represents was based upon the institution of slavery. Slavery was the root cause of its existence. Again, as distasteful as this may be, it is a historical fact. 3. The vast majority of 19th century white Americans were racist. The issue of slavery was largely an economic, societal, and political wedge driven between northern and southern societies - and not so much a moral one. 4. Southern "Lost Cause" historians had a huge impact in terms of how Americans viewed the Civil War and the Confederacy. This, American racism, and the overall backlash of failed Reconstruction policies led to a glorification of Confederate icons, including the flag. 5. Does pride in something (anything) trump any adverse effects that thing might cause?
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07-20-2005, 11:58 AM | #156 | ||
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Quote:
I've been trying to stay out of this discussion, but i wanted to call-out this point that several others have echoed.... I think that Bucc (as far as I know, he most knowledgeable on the board in Civil War history) would agree with me here.. This is a MAJOR oversimplification... in fact, many historians of late have made the argument that slavory was a relatively minor part in why the South seceded and why the Civil War happened...
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07-20-2005, 11:59 AM | #157 | |
Rider Of Rohan
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Quote:
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07-20-2005, 12:01 PM | #158 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Quote:
do you consider yourself a "buff"?
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07-20-2005, 12:04 PM | #159 | |
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WSUCougar's grad school work in American Military History is certainly nothing to sneeze at... |
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07-20-2005, 12:05 PM | #160 |
Head Coach
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I've never understood that phrase. What exactly DO you sneeze at? Who sneezes at anything?
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07-20-2005, 12:06 PM | #161 | |
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Quote:
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07-20-2005, 12:06 PM | #162 |
lolzcat
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Ah-choo.
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07-20-2005, 12:07 PM | #163 |
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I thought the war was about taxation without representation? Didn't the North try to tax the slaves the South had and then they dumped a bunch of slaves off Myrtle Beach saying they wouldn't take President Lincoln's taxes? Therefore, the war was essentially about slavery, but more concerned with taxes.
The reason why the North won was because Lincoln was honest about the reason to tax slavery...much like certain luxury items today are taxed (alcohol, cigarettes, prostitution). Lincoln was so honest that when he was a little boy he cut down a cherry tree and was asked if he cut it down. He replied, "I cannot tell a lie. I cut down the cherry tree." Thus, he was forevermore known as "Honest Abe". And yes, I consider myself a "buff". |
07-20-2005, 01:30 PM | #164 | |
Head Coach
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Quote:
I agree. So much to respond to, but not right now. |
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07-20-2005, 01:36 PM | #165 | |
College Prospect
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Quote:
Well, I'm not sure how reasonable I am, but thanks. The problem was that the forum for a while just got very juvenile in my opinion. I don't mean that in a bad way at all. It just seemed like it was mostly high school kids posting, and I just found little to interest me. Now I've come back and taken a look at some of the threads (instead of just looking for FOF and other game info) and found some mature and interesting (to me) discussions again. |
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07-20-2005, 01:41 PM | #166 | |
College Prospect
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Quote:
Wow...my head just exploded. I think you have your Rushmore Presidents confused. edit: I hope I just missed the sarcasm...it's been a long day.
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07-20-2005, 01:41 PM | #167 | |
High School JV
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
I've never tried to edit that message or delete it. I do not understand why you would think I am embarrassed of that thread. I've never stolen anything so before you start slandering my name check your facts. You don't know every story to be told. Go call your long distance relationship gf...that's what you should be worrying about in respect to thievery. |
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07-20-2005, 01:56 PM | #168 | ||
Rider Of Rohan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep
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Quote:
Would you agree that slavery was the economic foundation of the regions that became the Confederacy? Would you agree that the institution of slavery had been a divisive (actually, perhaps the most divisive) issue in American politics since it had been danced around and finally shoved under the carpet at the Constitutional Convention? Do you consider it merely coincidental that the two sides were divided between slave states and free states, with three very crucial border slave states in the mix? What do you make of the multitude of statements by secessionists, Confederate leaders, including Southern ministers, who not only admitted that slavery was the foundation of the Confederacy but TRUMPETED the fact and regularly reinforced it to the Confederate populace? As but one of many available examples, here's the Mississippi "Causes of Secession" Quote:
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07-20-2005, 01:56 PM | #169 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
You can not edit or delete the thread because it is locked. You are the self-admitted scrub. There is also several other threads you have started that are related to getting free e-licences and cheating the system. Personally, I think you are grasping for straws.
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07-20-2005, 01:58 PM | #170 |
Rider Of Rohan
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GE, are you shop-lifting the pooty?
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07-20-2005, 02:04 PM | #171 | |
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Quote:
The problem with this argument is what about former Iranians who want to display the Ayatollah Khomenai, saying 'blood is thicker than water' and not because of the whole Death to America thing. I wouldn't honor my ancestors that supported causes I consider repugnant.
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07-20-2005, 02:33 PM | #172 | |
High School JV
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Quote:
I think you are missing the point because I probably haven't explained myself enough. I'm not saying this to be macho or manly or anything but I do not care what people on a video game football site think of me. I am a name. I really really don't. I know that sounds harsh but it's the truth. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone not even you, but I just don't care. Why would I? None of my friends or family are part of this forum etc and I use it basically as my source for news (how sad is that?). I like to comment and answer a few questions here and there and for the most part enjoy the banter and wit I see everyday. I never look at names to see who posts what. I know there is a huge community here that is very tight on this board and that is cool and for all I know you are the president. I do not need this forum to feel loved and to be quite honest, no one should. That is my gripe. Just quit throwing things into a discussion that do not matter-that's all. I will just leave it at that as I've said my piece. This thread was simply about a dude I saw on the freeway who had a flag sticker on his car that made me sick. I wrote the message the way I did because that was how I felt. Plain and simple. I wasn't literally yelling at my cpu or anything, I wrote it hours later. Anyway, no one really cares so I'll just stop. Now I am done with this thread because I'm sick of writing replies! See everyone around. Enjoy. Last edited by Adamski47 : 07-20-2005 at 02:34 PM. Reason: typo |
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07-20-2005, 02:34 PM | #173 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
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07-20-2005, 03:30 PM | #174 | |
H.S. Freshman Team
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida
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Quote:
Then in my best southern colloquialism (sp) "You just ain't like me, then." |
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07-20-2005, 05:14 PM | #175 |
Hall Of Famer
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Well what about my hypo. Say I had ancestors that were terrorists. If I honored them would you be saying the same things about blood being thicker than water?
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07-20-2005, 05:21 PM | #176 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Going back 7 generations (which for most of us, would take you to the late 1700s), you would have about 250 direct ancestors. Counting spouses and siblings, that number goes up to well over 1000. With that much blood, one should always expect good and bad.
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07-20-2005, 06:31 PM | #177 | |
College Prospect
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Phoenix
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Quote:
I guess the rest of the thread made me unlikely to pick up on humor. Looking back on it, it is pretty funny.
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07-23-2005, 08:26 AM | #178 | ||
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Quote:
Alright.. I went back looking for this because I realized I hadn't read any replies to my statements... So... Let me start by saying I think I'm pretty clearly out-classed in Civil War History knowledge by you, so keep that in mind with my feeble attempts to remember what was discussed in my Civil War class in college... I do not disagree with this statement: Would you agree that slavery was the economic foundation of the regions that became the Confederacy? And in the end, this may be a matter of semantics.. but... This is actually the beginning to my argument that in reality the disagreement was around the North's efforts to tell the South how they could and could not make a living. This was not just shown by the disagreement on slavery, but also by some inordinate taxes (unfortunately I'm at work so I do not have my Civil War books with me, but I believe the South Carolina Succession that triggered it all was a relatively immediate reaction to one of these new tax laws?), interstate commerce laws that benefited the North, and a perception that they had no control in the federal government (and by that same note were being controlled by Northerners who ran the federal government). As to this statement: What do you make of the multitude of statements by secessionists, Confederate leaders, including Southern ministers, who not only admitted that slavery was the foundation of the Confederacy but TRUMPETED the fact and regularly reinforced it to the Confederate populace? I don't make much of this. Why did we go to war with Iraq? Not to get into a political discussion about that, but you could edit this statement for the War in Iraq and say: What do you make of the multitude of statements by conservatives, Republican leaders, including the White House, who not only admitted that WMD was the foundation of the War but TRUMPETED the fact and regularly reinforced it to the American populace? I think there are enough intellectuals that would agree that this it is at least questionable whether this was the true motivation. The fact that leaders who were trying to get the populace to support the war say that this is the reason, means little to what the real reason was. I do not disagree that the average farmer felt that Slavery was the reason for the seccession, but I do disagree that the leaders that actually made the seccession happen did it merely to keep slavery. If I had more time/resources I could find many leaders in private letters, journals, etc. that did not support slavery but supported the war (Robert E Lee for instance), what would you say to that? It's possible this should be moved to another thread if you want to really get in-depth about this.. it is a topic I find interesting and has me sparked to pick up some more Civil War literature as it is by far my favorite piece of history to study, but I have done little with it since my last course on it 4 or 5 years ago...
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07-23-2005, 10:32 AM | #179 |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Monroe, LA, USA
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I thought this story about divisions in the Sons of Confederate Veterans would be interesting to those interested in this thread.
As for my own views, I think people today get too easily offended about too many things in America. We are becoming the nation of the perpetually offended. The best way for people who don't like public displays of the Confederate flag to combat it would be to ignore it. By focusing attention on it, you aren't going to make people stop doing it. You will just make them more determined. However, I do think the Confederate flag should come down from state flags and statehouses, etc. I think there is nothing at all wrong with being proud of a Confederate ancestor. I have several, one who died at Antietam, one wounded and captured on the 2nd day at Gettysburg (cousins, if you will), and my great-great-grandfather who fought as a cavalry captain in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Alabama. I have a couple of Civil War prints featuring Confederate soldiers and the Confederate battle flag in my family room. I would never personally publicly display a Confederate flag, though. I think at this point in history it sends the wrong signal to too many people. But that is strictly a personal decision. The causes of the Civil War are so complex, and the reasons people fought are so complex, that it is not possible to say Confederate soldiers fought for slavery, though some did. Lee, for example, thought slavery was morally wrong and that secession was a stupid idea, but he ended up fighting for Virginia and the Confederacy. And some slaveowners fought for the North. BTW, I disagree with those who say slavery was only a minor part of the causes of the war. It was THE catalyst. It was the one question that everyone dwelled on in the years leading up to the war. But it was not the only cause. Finally, I think when civil rights activists (or hucksters) focus their efforts on the removal of this or that flag here or there, they are doing absolutely nothing to improve the lot of minorities. If all the Confederate flags came down everywhere, it doesn't do a damned thing for poor minority communities. But these issues do draw media attention and funding to the hucksters. Now to that article, which says a lot about the symbols of this particular organization. http://www.nola.com/newsflash/nation...ylist=national Southern heritage group faces division 7/22/2005, 3:29 p.m. CT By ROSE FRENCH The Associated Press NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Even as it comes together for its annual convention, the most prominent Southern heritage group finds itself a house divided between old-style preservationists and new leaders who see Confederate symbols as a political cause. The Sons of Confederate Veterans has been taken over in recent years by a more confrontational wing — including some with alleged ties to hate and white-separatist groups — that wants to be more aggressive about responding to perceived assaults on Southern symbols such as the Confederate flag. "It is becoming more activist, but it's in tatters," said Heidi Beirich, spokeswoman for the Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based nonprofit that monitors hate groups. Traditionalists have accused the new leadership of racism and political extremism, saying a number of members have ties to the League of the South, which calls for another secession of Southern states, and the white-supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens.... |
07-23-2005, 10:33 AM | #180 |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Here
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One of the guys from the group trying to make it into a separatist group is now the head of like the Charleston County school district and is on the Southern Poverty laws top 50 list or something like that.... got to love the South!
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07-25-2005, 05:56 AM | #181 | |
lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Bumping for WSU to see since he appears to not check on the weekends...
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07-25-2005, 09:21 AM | #182 | |
Rider Of Rohan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Quote:
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It's not the years...it's the mileage. |
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07-25-2005, 09:29 AM | #183 | ||
lolzcat
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NP.. I know I'm going to lose out in the end, but my knowledge will be better for it.
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07-27-2005, 02:33 PM | #184 | |||||
Rider Of Rohan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Not sure this makes any headway or not, but here's a few more comments for discussion:
Quote:
Okay, I understand that you are in part agreeing with this point, but also (and please correct me if I’m misrepresenting you) your response regarding over-simplification of the issue was to my statement: Quote:
Quote:
I’d have to say that you are comparing apples to oranges with the war in Iraq situation. Our current government made the decision for war in Iraq (and I don’t want to get into that, either) and explained it to the American public accordingly. In the 1860-61 southern states, delegates were elected to conventions to vote on secession. In some states – North Carolina, for example – there was significant sentiment among the citizenry not to secede. And some states – Virginia, for example – were less inclined to secede until Lincoln made it clear he did not recognize secession as anything but rebellion and intended to put it down. But if you’re suggesting that the powers-that-be put one over on the masses to sell them on war, I think that’s incorrect. Certainly there was an elite class in the south who dictated much of the policy at the state level, and many of them were powerful advocates of both slavery and secession. They were the ones who stood to lose the most if slavery were to be abolished. Quote:
So you feel that Lincoln’s election – which was the final straw to most secessionists – in 1860 did not threaten them mostly in that manner? I’m not saying the causes and issues you’ve raised as alternates to slavery are not pertinent, but I am saying that they derive from slavery and its role as the economic foundation of the south. Events throughout the first half of the 19th century merely put off the climactic battle over slavery that must eventually occur, one way or another. The Missouri Compromise of 1820, which establishes Missouri as a slave state but prohibits slavery in new territories north of Missouri’s southern borderline. The Compromise of 1850 and the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854, which among other things allowed voters in new territories to decide by “popular sovereignty” on slavery. But the two political positions – pro-slavery and anti-slavery – can never be compatible, because support of one by nature threatens the other. By 1860 the writing is on the wall. Quote:
I think that’s irrelevant to the argument. I can also find many proponents of slavery that fought for the Union. None of which changes the fact that the CSA was founded upon the institution of slavery and that slavery was the root cause of its existence. I think the inherent stigma attached to slavery compels people to look for other, more noble foundations for the Confederacy. Yet slavery was what divided the south from the rest of the Union. It is what was confronted our nation’s leaders from the very beginning.
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07-27-2005, 02:40 PM | #185 | |
Lethargic Hooligan
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing
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i would
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07-27-2005, 02:42 PM | #186 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Quote:
no that was "a buff" not buff
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07-27-2005, 06:24 PM | #187 |
Hall Of Famer
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Let me add to WSU. These are just a few quotes fro secession commisioners. They all come from the fabulous little book Apostles of Disunion. If I had time I could pull dozens of these type of quotes.
Mississippi's commissioner to Georgia closed his statement with, "Sink or swim, live or die, survive or perish, the part of Mississippi is chosen, she will never submit to this Black Republican Administration. She had rather see the last of her race, men, women, and children, immolated in one common funeral pile, than see them subjected to the degradation of civil, political and social equality with the negro race." Alabama's commissioner to Delaware said that Lincoln sought, "the establishment of an equality of races in our midst." Georgia's commissioner to Virginia stated the reason for Georgia's secession, "This reason may be summed up in a single proposition. It was a conviction, a deep conviction on the part of Georgia, that a seperation from the North was the only thing that could prevent the abolition of slavery." Prominent Southern orator John Preston Smith said in 1861, "the conflict between slavery and non-slavery is a conflict for life and death." |
07-27-2005, 08:58 PM | #188 |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Monroe, LA, USA
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Maury Klein's Days of Defiance: Sumter, Secession, and the Coming of the Civil War is an excellent book about the events leading up to the war.
One quote from that book regarding a speech by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens in March 1861: The old Constitution, he asserted, "rested upon the assumption of the equality of the races....It was a sandy foundation." The cornerstone of the new government "rests up on the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that Slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new Government, is the first in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral taruth." Lincoln himself is quoted in his first inaugural address: "One section of our country believes slavery is right, and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong, and ought not be be extended. This is the only substantial dispute." I believe that the people who actually took part in the events knew better than we did what the conflict was about. It was clearly about slavery. It is too simple to say it was only about slavery, but slavery was the issue that could not be solved short of war and that split the country. But I also believe most Confederate soldiers did not fight to preserve slavery. The fought in defense of their states and homes, however misguided they might be. And I see no paradox in condemning those who advocated slavery while honoring the courage of my Confederate ancestors. After all, slavery was the law of the land in the United States of America until the Civil War changed that. |
08-06-2008, 10:00 PM | #189 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Related back to the very first post in this thread, I was behind a Silverado extended supercab with a confederate flag decal filling the entire rear window.
That wasn't what caught my attention. The attention grabber was the bumper sticker with a confederate flag on it with these words next to it: Fighting Terrorism Since 1861 The only thing going through my mind was, "I don't think that flag means what you think it does. Or you really, really hate America." |
08-07-2008, 07:15 AM | #190 |
Pro Starter
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what better racism or treason?
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08-07-2008, 07:51 AM | #191 |
College Benchwarmer
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Location: Location, Location, Location
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Spoken like a true Patriot('s fan). Me? I'm like Lincoln. Now that it's back in the Union I'm going to whistle 'Dixie' and take a drive down Monument Avenue (in Richmond) and look at the world's largest collection of second place trophies.
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08-07-2008, 08:11 AM | #192 |
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The other day I was in Decatur and saw a truck with a big sticker that had the US Flag and the Confederate flag next to each other. It said, American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.
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08-07-2008, 08:15 AM | #193 |
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08-07-2008, 09:48 AM | #194 | ||
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Quote:
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08-07-2008, 11:13 AM | #195 |
Grizzled Veteran
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Nice, Duckman.
Me, my views haven't changed - its a symbol of a racist, repulsive government set up to defend one of the most vile institutions in our history. We don't tell German soldiers who fought in WW II that flying the Nazi flag is A-okay; treating the Confederacy as a bunch of honorable "good ol boys" doesn't fly either. Treat them as the adults they were. |
08-07-2008, 12:12 PM | #196 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
You better ban the American Flag while your at it. Unlike the Germans and their crimes of the Nazi Era, we endorsed slavery long before the Confederates ever did and endorsed criminal action long after the Confederates were gone. |
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08-07-2008, 01:06 PM | #197 | |
Hockey Boy
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
I agreed. And this should be our new flag:
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08-07-2008, 01:08 PM | #198 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Makes the Confederate Flag seem more appealing, suddenly.
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08-07-2008, 01:21 PM | #199 | |
General Manager
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Quote:
We also slaughtered Indians, withheld syphilis treatment for blacks in the name of medical experimentation, tortured prisoners, sponsored killings of civilians throughout the world, and so forth. I still love America and am thankful I live here, but let's not go overboard on the morality trip. Last edited by molson : 08-07-2008 at 01:22 PM. |
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08-07-2008, 01:23 PM | #200 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Who the fuck said anything about banning it? Its a disgusting symbol that the state shouldn't endorse, but people are free to do what they want. I'm sure you can continue to fly yours Dutch - wouldn't want to change that for the world. |
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