NFL Week 12 - Gobble Gobble Edition - Page 4

molson · 11-30-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

Have you watched bears games? If there's two things he has shown this year it's that he absolutely is the leader of that offense when they're on the field and he's one tough son of a bitch.

I agree about the bitch part.

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I've seen them all and I still don't see this leadership. The only emotion I see from him is yelling at his teammates after he throws a bad pass.

I've seen him jump on his receivers when they run the wrong route, I saw him keep the team in the Arizona game by himself, I've seen him take some nasty shots this year and get right back up and get in the huddle. His teammates like him. He goes to watch film after games instead of going home. You need to take your Culter hating blinders off.

You don't don't get many chances to show your leadership on a team as bad as the bears are this year, but I've liked what I've seen in that area.

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

I agree about the bitch part.

It's amusing how people on this forum trash ESPN constantly and then let the news fed to them by ESPN shape their opinions on players rather than actually making the decisions on their own.

ISiddiqui · 11-30-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And Bill Walsh created the West Coast offense as an assistant.

And perfected it as a Head Coach

. Or do you think Indy's defenses showed the brilliance of the Cover 2?

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

I've seen him jump on his receivers when they run the wrong route, I saw him keep the team in the Arizona game by himself, I've seen him take some nasty shots this year and get right back up and get in the huddle. His teammates like him. He goes to watch film after games instead of going home. You need to take your Culter hating blinders off.

You don't don't get many chances to show your leadership on a team as bad as the bears are this year, but I've liked what I've seen in that area.

His teammates like him? The captain of the team basically just came out and said that Orton is a better fit.

Urlacher struggles with sideline role - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

And he did almost single-handidly keep us in that Arizona game. He also almost single-handidly lost us the games to Green Bay, San Francisco, Philadelphia and Atlanta.

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

His teammates like him? The captain of the team basically just came out and said that Orton is a better fit.

Urlacher struggles with sideline role - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

And he did almost single-handidly keep us in that Arizona game. He also almost single-handidly lost us the games to Green Bay, San Francisco, Philadelphia and Atlanta.

Urlacher isn't knocking Cutler in that article, he's knocking the decision by the coaches to move to a more pass heavy offense instead of the ball control offense they used in the past.

Quote:

“Look, I love Jay, and I understand he’s a great player who can take us a long way, and I still have faith in him,” Urlacher said. “But I hate the way our identity has changed. We used to establish the run and wear teams down and try not to make mistakes, and we’d rely on our defense to keep us in the game and make big plays to put us in position to win. Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth.”

He's been complimentary of Cutler since training camp and admitted then that Cutler gave the offense a new dimension. Also keep in mind that Kyle was Urlacher's best friend on the team. He's going to back Kyle when he can.

I also said teammates. Not teammate.

ISiddiqui · 11-30-2009, 01:28 PM

Kind of strange for Urlacher wanting to go "ball control". It's a bit more difficult when your #1 RB is running for 3.3 yards per carry.

molson · 11-30-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's amusing how people on this forum trash ESPN constantly and then let the news fed to them by ESPN shape their opinions on players rather than actually making the decisions on their own.

Not sure where I'm supposed to get information other than the media. Unless you're saying that I'm not allowed to criticize anyone I don't know personally.

Also, I don't trash ESPN, nor do I rely on them for 100% of my information about the world.

cartman · 11-30-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

His teammates like him? The captain of the team basically just came out and said that Orton is a better fit.

Urlacher struggles with sideline role - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

Or maybe not.
Urlacher: I wasn't criticizing Cutler, teammates - Chicago Breaking Sports

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

Not sure where I'm supposed to get information other than the media. Unless you're saying that I'm not allowed to criticize anyone I don't know personally.

Also, I don't trash ESPN, nor do I rely on them for 100% of my information about the world.

When a team decides to cut ties with a star player this is still productive it looks for reasons to get fan support for the trade. The Red Sox are infamous for this. Most recent example being Manny who supposedly quit on the team and was refusing to play despite the fact that he had missed all of 2 games the entire month before he was traded and led the team in OPS that month by a wide margin. So he had quit the team and was still the best player on the team.

95% of the stuff we heard on the Culter thing this past offseason was from the Denver front office. The reporting on that has shaped just about everyone's opinions on Cutler as a person and a player. The guy was a top 5 QB last year at age 25, but he's not a winner because he had what was statistically the worst defense in the NFL dating back to at least 1994.

Reaction to some players is predictable. If you have a good team around you and you win then it's really hard to do anything wrong. You're a leader, you're a winner, and even if you don't play well the stats just don't tell the entire story. However, if you're in a situation where you don't have a good team or good coaching around you then you don't know how to win, you're not a leader, and those stats still don't tell the entire story.

Marino yelled at his players when he screwed up. He yelled at his coaches. The media and fans liked him, though, so he was a leader and him not winning was mostly because of him playing on poor teams. Jeff George - same stuff, didn't get his team to a Super Bowl, played on shitty teams most of his career and is the posterboy for guys who just don't know how to win. There's countless more examples.

All it takes is one season early in your career of having the right players around you, some good coaches, and a bit of luck and your legacy is set until you retire. If you're unlucky then you're fighting against fan and media perception until it happens.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

Urlacher isn't knocking Cutler in that article, he's knocking the decision by the coaches to move to a more pass heavy offense instead of the ball control offense they used in the past.

He's been complimentary of Cutler since training camp and admitted then that Cutler gave the offense a new dimension. Also keep in mind that Kyle was Urlacher's best friend on the team. He's going to back Kyle when he can.

I also said teammates. Not teammate.

That is the problem with the Bears though. Rex Grossman's dad actually came out the other week and bashed the organization. While people took shots at him for it, he was 100% right.

The team doesn't commit to anything. They wanted a run-heavy offense the last few years but put the success of the offense on the QB. They are doing the same thing now. They are switching to a pass heavy offense yet not commiting to it. They don't have any real NFL starting receivers or an offensive line that can protect a QB.

The only thing Jay Cutler is leading is a team that is quickly becoming one of the worst in football. The move was a bad one.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

Or maybe not.
Urlacher: I wasn't criticizing Cutler, teammates - Chicago Breaking Sports

Definitely not criticizing. Just saying the guy we traded away was a winner and that he hates the way the team is going.

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That is the problem with the Bears though. Rex Grossman's dad actually came out the other week and bashed the organization. While people took shots at him for it, he was 100% right.

The team doesn't commit to anything. They wanted a run-heavy offense the last few years but put the success of the offense on the QB. They are doing the same thing now. They are switching to a pass heavy offense yet not commiting to it. They don't have any real NFL starting receivers or an offensive line that can protect a QB.

The only thing Jay Cutler is leading is a team that is quickly becoming one of the worst in football. The move was a bad one.

The organization is among the worst in football and will be as long as the McCaskeys are running things. They're not William Clay Ford or Al Davis bad, but they're not as far behind as many probably realize.

I remember Brian Cox when he was on the Drive with Chris Meyers being asked what the worst organization he played for was and without hesitation he said the Bears. He said the fans were great, he loved his teammates there, but the organization was terrible. He said anytime you asked for new socks or any sort of new equipment they'd take it out of your next paycheck. He said that there was a McCaskey in every part of the organization and told a story of how he went to get tickets for friends and family once and there was a McCaskey working in the ticket office.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

The organization is among the worst in football and will be as long as the McCaskeys are running things. They're not William Clay Ford or Al Davis bad, but they're not as far behind as many probably realize.

I remember Brian Cox when he was on the Drive with Chris Meyers being asked what the worst organization he played for was and without hesitation he said the Bears. He said the fans were great, he loved his teammates there, but the organization was terrible. He said anytime you asked for new socks or any sort of new equipment they'd take it out of your next paycheck. He said that there was a McCaskey in every part of the organization and told a story of how he went to get tickets for friends and family once and there was a McCaskey working in the ticket office.

That sounds like the Bears. The problem is that this organization needs a massive overhaul by someone like Cowher or Parcells. But they hate giving up any power and will never bring in someone like that. It's why I know that firing Lovie will just end up with us hiring some assistant at a cheap price.

gstelmack · 11-30-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I still think Dungy has to be considered one of the best. He helped revolutionize defense with the Tampa 2. I do think the game has passed that style of defensive play by though and only coaches behind the times are still running it (Lovie Smith). But when it was implemented, it was a great defense that caused many offenses fits.

I actually disagree that the game has passed it by. The key to the Tampa 2 is a fast MLB who can run up the seam with the TE or slot WR. If you don't have a coverage MLB like that (like Derrick Brooks was), you're going to get burned deep in the center of the field with the split safeties. Too many teams have tried to run the Tampa 2 without the right MLB or other personnel.

Aylmar · 11-30-2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I still think Dungy has to be considered one of the best. He helped revolutionize defense with the Tampa 2. I do think the game has passed that style of defensive play by though and only coaches behind the times are still running it (Lovie Smith). But when it was implemented, it was a great defense that caused many offenses fits.

Which Dungy himself admits he lifted from Chuck Noll and Bud Carson. The difference is supposed to be Mike coverage responsibilities in a deeper middle zone than the traditional Cover 2, but the Steelers were using Lambert as a deep middle cover man when Dungy was there as a player then coach in the late 70s/early 80s.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dungy is a very good coach, but the "Tampa 2" love fest is a little overblown.

hoopsguy · 11-30-2009, 02:25 PM

Pretty sure Brooks was the weak-side linebacker for those Tampa Bay teams. Nickerson was one of the guys in the middle, but for the most part the MLBs were non-descript components in Tampa. The stars were Brooks, Lynch, and Rice but they had a ton of speed up and down that defense.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I actually disagree that the game has passed it by. The key to the Tampa 2 is a fast MLB who can run up the seam with the TE or slot WR. If you don't have a coverage MLB like that (like Derrick Brooks was), you're going to get burned deep in the center of the field with the split safeties. Too many teams have tried to run the Tampa 2 without the right MLB or other personnel.

The Cover 2 was put in place to stop the West Coast Offense which it did extremely well. The problem is that teams just aren't running the old WCO much anymore. Everyone knows how to attack it now and they do with ease.

The Bears also have a Pro Bowl linebacker still playing in Briggs who essentially does what Brooks did in Tampa scheme wise. The fact is that the Bears defense was great when Tommie Harris was great. When he got hurt, the defense went into the shitter. We've had 2 Pro Bowl linebackers the last few years and had one of the poorer defenses in football during it.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aylmar

Which Dungy himself admits he lifted from Chuck Noll and Bud Carson. The difference is supposed to be Mike coverage responsibilities in a deeper middle zone than the traditional Cover 2, but the Steelers were using Lambert as a deep middle cover man when Dungy was there as a player then coach in the late 70s/early 80s.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dungy is a very good coach, but the "Tampa 2" love fest is a little overblown.

Everyone lifts parts from other schemes. There's only so much you can do on a football field. But he still was instrumental in creating a defense that essentially nullified the West Coast Offense that had dominated football for more than a decade. Not saying he's one of the best ever, but I think he deserves a lot of credit for his innovations.

jbergey22 · 11-30-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm a pretty big hater on Cutler but I'm getting sick of this fawning over Favre from everyone. He has the best offensive line in the game. By far the best running back in the game. And a decent set of receivers who can make plays 1-on-1. There are a lot of QBs who can put up those numbers when every team is playing you with 9 men in the box and you have all day to throw the football.

The Vikings had a better line last year(with Birk) and the same set of WRs(minus Harvin) and they werent actually that good. Favre actually has looked better this year than I have seen him look since 97. I am not sure if is arm had been bothering him for 10-12 years but he is on a roll right now. I dont agree that the Vikings have the best Oline in football(the right side of their line is pretty poor actually). Id take the Giants.

The rest I agree on. Its a very simple situation for Favre because AP does take the pressure off him. Favre seems to know this offense so well that he isnt making mistakes. Im not sure if anyone other the Manning or Brees could be putting up the same kind of numbers however. Id normally say Brady but he hasnt looked as sharp some games this year as he usually does.

MikeVic · 11-30-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

The Vikings had a better line last year(with Birk) and the same set of WRs(minus Harvin) and they werent actually that good. Favre actually has looked better this year than I have seen him look since 97. I am not sure if is arm had been bothering him for 10-12 years but he is on a roll right now. I dont agree that the Vikings have the best Oline in football(the right side of their line is pretty poor actually). Id take the Giants.

The rest I agree on. Its a very simple situation for Favre because AP does take the pressure off him. Favre seems to know this offense so well that he isnt making mistakes. Im not sure if anyone other the Manning or Brees could be putting up the same kind of numbers however. Id normally say Brady but he hasnt looked as sharp some games this year as he usually does.

I don't even know where to start with this post.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

The Vikings had a better line last year(with Birk) and the same set of WRs(minus Harvin) and they werent actually that good. Favre actually has looked better this year than I have seen him look since 97. I am not sure if is arm had been bothering him for 10-12 years but he is on a roll right now. I dont agree that the Vikings have the best Oline in football(the right side of their line is pretty poor actually). Id take the Giants.

The rest I agree on. Its a very simple situation for Favre because AP does take the pressure off him. Favre seems to know this offense so well that he isnt making mistakes. Im not sure if anyone other the Manning or Brees could be putting up the same kind of numbers however. Id normally say Brady but he hasnt looked as sharp some games this year as he usually does.

Harvin is going to be offensive ROY and is a pretty huge weapon in their arsenal. I put Minnesota's line higher up because I think they run and pass block well while some other great lines clearly do one better than the other.

They sucked last year because Tavaris Jackson is a horrible QB and Childress is a horrible coach.

As for the Vikings, whatever happened to the suspensions for the Williams lineman?

jbergey22 · 11-30-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Harvin is going to be offensive ROY and is a pretty huge weapon in their arsenal. I put Minnesota's line higher up because I think they run and pass block well while some other great lines clearly do one better than the other.

They sucked last year because Tavaris Jackson is a horrible QB and Childress is a horrible coach.

As for the Vikings, whatever happened to the suspensions for the Williams lineman?

Harvin is a hell of a weapon no doubt. As a WR he still makes a lot of mistakes(dropped passes, bad routes) but he makes up for it with how explosive he is. A lot of the ROY talk is because of his Kickoff returning.

Childress is a horrible coach no doubt. TJack isnt horrible hes just not consistent. Him and Frerotte struggled making 5 yard passes to wide open WRs last year.

The suspension has been postponed atleast through this year. Im beginning to think the players will win this one for once.

Honolulu_Blue · 11-30-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

As for the Vikings, whatever happened to the suspensions for the Williams lineman?

A federal judge in Minnesota ruled that the suspensions were illegal because the testing violated Minnesota law or something along those lines.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Harvin is a hell of a weapon no doubt. As a WR he still makes a lot of mistakes(dropped passes, bad routes) but he makes up for it with how explosive he is. A lot of the ROY talk is because of his Kickoff returning.

Childress is a horrible coach no doubt. TJack isnt horrible hes just not consistent. Him and Frerotte struggled making 5 yard passes to wide open WRs last year.

The suspension has been postponed atleast through this year. Im beginning to think the players will win this one for once.

Interesting. Is it a state court that is dealing with this? Does this mean that the Vikings don't have to abide by the steroid rules? Kind of confused on this as I was under the impression players on other teams have been serving suspensions.

Honolulu_Blue · 11-30-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Interesting. Is it a state court that is dealing with this? Does this mean that the Vikings don't have to abide by the steroid rules? Kind of confused on this as I was under the impression players on other teams have been serving suspensions.

I believe it's a Federal Court, but it is applying Minnesota state law because the Williams are employed in Minnesota, so their labor laws or employment laws govern.

The NFL is appealing the decision, I believe, because it does create a situation where the NFL's drug testing policy may be valid in some states (to some teams) and not others. I think the Saints players, for example, did serve the suspensions because Louisiana law is different on this issue (it's different on a lot of issues).

jbergey22 · 11-30-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Interesting. Is it a state court that is dealing with this? Does this mean that the Vikings don't have to abide by the steroid rules? Kind of confused on this as I was under the impression players on other teams have been serving suspensions.

Great questions. Im thinking this is why the NFL hasnt given up on this as of yet even though like HB said the judge ruled the testing was illegal.

The players that were suspended at the same time as the Williams have not had to serve their suspension either.

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Interesting. Is it a state court that is dealing with this? Does this mean that the Vikings don't have to abide by the steroid rules? Kind of confused on this as I was under the impression players on other teams have been serving suspensions.

Minnesota has state laws when it comes to drug testing that circumvents the NFL drug policy. The NFL is appealing to congress for help because they say it jeopardizes the league's entire drug policy. Congress told both the NFL and the NFLPA they had better work this out or neither side is going to be happy with what Congress comes up with.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 03:01 PM

So the Vikings can use steroids and other teams can't until this is sorted out?

jbergey22 · 11-30-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So the Vikings can use steroids and other teams can't until this is sorted out?

LOL, Maybe that explains a lot

Daimyo · 11-30-2009, 03:56 PM

Dungy coached 13 seasons (208 games) and was 139-69. That's an average of nearly 11 wins/season. Sure he had Manning for half those games, but don't forget the Colts were 6-10 when he took over as coach, had absolutely no defense, and Manning was actually regressing from his outstanding 2nd year. Have people forgotten how bad Tampa Bay for 20 years before Dungy took over there?

As for the tampa-2 being passed by, the table below shows the Colts defenders who have started the most games this season. The Colt's have a pretty solid defense this year despite having invested very little resources in building it. Freeney is the only Colt defender drafted remotely early with 8 of 11 coming from the 5th round or lower. A lot of that is Polian, but a lot of credit has to go to the system implemented by Dungy (and tweaked by Coyer this year).

Pos	Player	Drafted
LE	Robert Mathis	5(138)
LT	Antonio Johnson	5(152)
RT	Daniel Muir	URFA
RE	Dwight Freeney	1(11)
OLB	Tyjuan Hagler	5(173)
MLB	Gary Brackett	URFA
OLB	Clint Session	4(136)
LCB	Jacob Lacey	URFA
RCB	Jerraud Powers	3(92)
SS	Melvin Bullitt	URFA
FS	Antoine Bethea	6(207)

No way are there 10 active coaches better than Dungy. Maybe there are 1 or 2.

DaddyTorgo · 11-30-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo

No way are there 10 active coaches better than Dungy. Maybe there are 1 or 2.

i think the true number is probably somewhere in the middle. say 4.

and that depends on how you categorize guys who are taking a year off.

but there's no doubt there are some pretty godawful coaches out there right now...it's definately not a golden era for nfl coaches.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Dungy coached 13 seasons (208 games) and was 139-69. That's an average of nearly 11 wins/season. Sure he had Manning for half those games, but don't forget the Colts were 6-10 when he took over as coach, had absolutely no defense, and Manning was actually regressing from his outstanding 2nd year. Have people forgotten how bad Tampa Bay for 20 years before Dungy took over there?

As for the tampa-2 being passed by, the table below shows the Colts defenders who have started the most games this season. The Colt's have a pretty solid defense this year despite having invested very little resources in building it. Freeney is the only Colt defender drafted remotely early with 8 of 11 coming from the 5th round or lower. A lot of that is Polian, but a lot of credit has to go to the system implemented by Dungy (and tweaked by Coyer this year).

Pos	Player	Drafted
LE	Robert Mathis	5(138)
LT	Antonio Johnson	5(152)
RT	Daniel Muir	URFA
RE	Dwight Freeney	1(11)
OLB	Tyjuan Hagler	5(173)
MLB	Gary Brackett	URFA
OLB	Clint Session	4(136)
LCB	Jacob Lacey	URFA
RCB	Jerraud Powers	3(92)
SS	Melvin Bullitt	URFA
FS	Antoine Bethea	6(207)

No way are there 10 active coaches better than Dungy. Maybe there are 1 or 2.

The Colts don't run the Tampa 2 much anymore though. They do when they are ahead but it features much more blitzing than the old system.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i think the true number is probably somewhere in the middle. say 4.

and that depends on how you categorize guys who are taking a year off.

but there's no doubt there are some pretty godawful coaches out there right now...it's definately not a golden era for nfl coaches.

I'm trying to put together a list and all I can come up with is Bill Belichick. You can maybe make a case for some younger guys but you'd probably have to see how they turn out in a few more years.

jbergey22 · 11-30-2009, 04:14 PM

Well we have Belichick followed by ?

Id say Andy Reid(even though hes doing a lousy job this year) Sean Payton, Jeff Fischer, maybe Tomlin(too early) and Whisenhunt(too early) are all in the same class as Dungy but I cant say any of them are better.

EDIt Coughlin deserves some credit too. Id put him on the list as well.

jbergey22 · 11-30-2009, 04:22 PM

You know most people(including myself) cant stand Childress as a coach however he has improved the team each of his seasons.

His first year the Vikings were 6-10 with little talent, they followed it up with an 8-8 year then a 10-6 year and now are 10-1. They were in tough shape after the 05 season and for all his faults has built a pretty good team.

Daimyo · 11-30-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The Colts don't run the Tampa 2 much anymore though. They do when they are ahead but it features much more blitzing than the old system.

The Colts blitz more now, but they're still near the bottom of the league in blitz percentage and mainly rely on the front four to generate the pass rush. I'm sure it isn't exactly the same today as 10 years ago, but the principles are still the same.

Daimyo · 11-30-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Well we have Belichick followed by ?

Id say Andy Reid(even though hes doing a lousy job this year) Sean Payton, Jeff Fischer, maybe Tomlin(too early) and Whisenhunt(too early) are all in the same class as Dungy but I cant say any of them are better.

EDIt Coughlin deserves some credit too. Id put him on the list as well.

Andy Reid - worse win percentage, no super bowl, successful with only one team, always had McNabb
Sean Payton - worse win percentage, no super bowl, successful with only one team, always had Brees
Jeff Fisher - worse win percentage, no super bowl
Mike Tomlin - inherited a super bowl team, short career, always had roethlisberger
Ken Whisenhunt - career is way too short to merit consideration

Funny how all these guys (including Dungy and Belichick) have great quarterbacks except Fisher and he had McNair for a lot of his years...

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 04:41 PM

This is Fisher's 16th NFL season. He has 6 winning seasons and 6 playoff births and 3 division titles.

Compare that to the other top coaches and it's actually rather mediocre.

Abe Sargent · 11-30-2009, 05:03 PM

FTR, I would totally be Tom Coughlin's bitch

Lathum · 11-30-2009, 05:10 PM

10 was obviously an exateration. Point being, to call Dungy the greatest ever is a stretch. He won 1 title with maybe the best QB ever and it took Gruden to win with the same players Dungy had in Tampa.

Abe Sargent · 11-30-2009, 08:42 PM

Why did we make a seperate thread for tonight's game?

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Why did we make a seperate thread for tonight's game?

Damn pats fans think they're better than everyone.

Radii · 11-30-2009, 10:25 PM

Lets not even play the rest of the season. Lets put the Saints/Colts in the Super Bowl and talk theories next season. Of course if the Vikings can stay within 10 next week against the Cardinals they can have the misfortune of losing to the Saints in the conference championship.

Drew Brees 11-0
Josh Freeman 1-3

Does that shut up any of you that actually thought Freeman would mean more to the Bucs than Brees does to New Orelans?

*bows*

jbergey22 · 11-30-2009, 10:32 PM

Yikes!

Big Fo · 11-30-2009, 10:33 PM

Seeing the Pats get dismantled tonight would have been even more fun if Miami hadn't blown it in Buffalo yesterday. A win there would have setup a big game next week where they could have tied for the division lead. Oh well.

RainMaker · 11-30-2009, 10:44 PM

Not sure what to make out of tonight's game. Is New Orleans that good or is New England's defense real bad?

All I can say is I'm really looking forward to the playoffs this year. The AFC seems to be a little more balanced where I can see a handful of teams winning it while the NFC should end up in a huge Minnesota-New Orleans clash.

stevew · 11-30-2009, 10:49 PM

Dennis Dixon looked okay last night. I'm kind of pissed they didn't try to take advantage of his speed more. Obviously the interception sucked. But they should have had him bootlegging and run/pass option more.

Or at least try to get some wildcat shit going with him in there

With the NFL now at 50% passing out of the shot gun, guys like Dixon/Pat White were born at the right time.

And VY had one of those "I'm Neo and I run shit in the Matrix" moments yesterday. The next decade has a chance to be really exciting.

Atocep · 11-30-2009, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Dennis Dixon looked okay last night. I'm kind of pissed they didn't try to take advantage of his speed more. Obviously the interception sucked. But they should have had him bootlegging and run/pass option more.

Or at least try to get some wildcat shit going with him in there

With the NFL now at 50% passing out of the shot gun, guys like Dixon/Pat White were born at the right time.

And VY had one of those "I'm Neo and I run shit in the Matrix" moments yesterday. The next decade has a chance to be really exciting.

I was actually talking to a friend yesterday that hates college football and I remarked that it's kind of funny how far behind the NFL is in terms of offensive evolution. The spread has just recently started catching on in the NFL as you see elements of it used by most teams. However, college teams are starting to defend it better and I can see teams moving away from it and on to the next big thing over the next few years.

Daimyo · 11-30-2009, 11:56 PM

I was shocked to see the Pats throw in the towel with the ball and more than five minutes left. I've seen the Colts come back to win at least twice in similar situations -- down 17 with 4 minutes left to Houston last year and down 21 to Tampa Bay with 4 minutes left in 2003.

Why would they keep Brady in in blow-outs but then completely give up in a game like this? Granted they had less than a 1% to win, but you have Brady, Moss, and Welker... you have to go for it until its over with the bye essentially on the line. Is this a broken team?

11-30-2009, 01:28 PM	#157
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Kind of strange for Urlacher wanting to go "ball control". It's a bit more difficult when your #1 RB is running for 3.3 yards per carry. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

11-30-2009, 04:14 PM	#185
jbergey22 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota	Well we have Belichick followed by ? Id say Andy Reid(even though hes doing a lousy job this year) Sean Payton, Jeff Fischer, maybe Tomlin(too early) and Whisenhunt(too early) are all in the same class as Dungy but I cant say any of them are better. EDIt Coughlin deserves some credit too. Id put him on the list as well. Last edited by jbergey22 : 11-30-2009 at 04:16 PM.

11-30-2009, 05:03 PM	#190
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	FTR, I would totally be Tom Coughlin's bitch __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

11-30-2009, 08:42 PM	#192
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	Why did we make a seperate thread for tonight's game? __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

11-30-2009, 02:25 PM	#167
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Pretty sure Brooks was the weak-side linebacker for those Tampa Bay teams. Nickerson was one of the guys in the middle, but for the most part the MLBs were non-descript components in Tampa. The stars were Brooks, Lynch, and Rice but they had a ton of speed up and down that defense.

11-30-2009, 03:01 PM	#179
RainMaker Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	So the Vikings can use steroids and other teams can't until this is sorted out?

11-30-2009, 04:22 PM	#186
jbergey22 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota	You know most people(including myself) cant stand Childress as a coach however he has improved the team each of his seasons. His first year the Vikings were 6-10 with little talent, they followed it up with an 8-8 year then a 10-6 year and now are 10-1. They were in tough shape after the 05 season and for all his faults has built a pretty good team.

11-30-2009, 04:41 PM	#189
RainMaker Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	This is Fisher's 16th NFL season. He has 6 winning seasons and 6 playoff births and 3 division titles. Compare that to the other top coaches and it's actually rather mediocre.

11-30-2009, 05:10 PM	#191
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	10 was obviously an exateration. Point being, to call Dungy the greatest ever is a stretch. He won 1 title with maybe the best QB ever and it took Gruden to win with the same players Dungy had in Tampa.

11-30-2009, 10:25 PM	#194
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	Lets not even play the rest of the season. Lets put the Saints/Colts in the Super Bowl and talk theories next season. Of course if the Vikings can stay within 10 next week against the Cardinals they can have the misfortune of losing to the Saints in the conference championship. Drew Brees 11-0 Josh Freeman 1-3 Does that shut up any of you that actually thought Freeman would mean more to the Bucs than Brees does to New Orelans? bows

11-30-2009, 10:32 PM	#195
jbergey22 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota	Yikes!

11-30-2009, 10:33 PM	#196
Big Fo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2005	Seeing the Pats get dismantled tonight would have been even more fun if Miami hadn't blown it in Buffalo yesterday. A win there would have setup a big game next week where they could have tied for the division lead. Oh well.

11-30-2009, 10:44 PM	#197
RainMaker Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Not sure what to make out of tonight's game. Is New Orleans that good or is New England's defense real bad? All I can say is I'm really looking forward to the playoffs this year. The AFC seems to be a little more balanced where I can see a handful of teams winning it while the NFC should end up in a huge Minnesota-New Orleans clash.

11-30-2009, 10:49 PM	#198
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Dennis Dixon looked okay last night. I'm kind of pissed they didn't try to take advantage of his speed more. Obviously the interception sucked. But they should have had him bootlegging and run/pass option more. Or at least try to get some wildcat shit going with him in there With the NFL now at 50% passing out of the shot gun, guys like Dixon/Pat White were born at the right time. And VY had one of those "I'm Neo and I run shit in the Matrix" moments yesterday. The next decade has a chance to be really exciting.

11-30-2009, 11:56 PM	#200
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	I was shocked to see the Pats throw in the towel with the ball and more than five minutes left. I've seen the Colts come back to win at least twice in similar situations -- down 17 with 4 minutes left to Houston last year and down 21 to Tampa Bay with 4 minutes left in 2003. Why would they keep Brady in in blow-outs but then completely give up in a game like this? Granted they had less than a 1% to win, but you have Brady, Moss, and Welker... you have to go for it until its over with the bye essentially on the line. Is this a broken team?

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