2012 MLB Playoffs Thread: Giants Win World Series (OD is Mar 31, 2013)

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

He managed them to 2 straight WS. Yeah, I think firing him is the right move.

I turned on the Braves game while all of the BS was happening. How did the runners get the 2nd and 3rd any way? If the IF fly rule was called, they have to tag up right? Holiday got the ball to the SS almost immediately. They had no time to tag up. So, how did they get to 3B and 2B?

If nobody catches it you can run without tagging. If they caught it they most certainly would have gone back to their bases.

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I hadn't seen it until now...holy shit. THAT far out??

And the ump called the infield fly less than a half second earlier...

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Are you standing by your argument that the call was made immediately? Because it clearly wasn't and an infield fly call has to be made immediately.

No. I saw the play again. It was a late call by the ump. It looks like he was waiting to see if Kozma could get to it. Which he would have. Had he not thought Holliday called him off or heard footsteps.
This play is in the definition of the infield fly rule.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Are you standing by your argument that the call was made immediately? Because it clearly wasn't and an infield fly call has to be made immediately.

Define clearly wasn't?

The Braves actually were helped by the call not being made immediately (in terms of it being called an infield fly). If it's made immediately the runners are back at the base and most likely don't advance.

It's all a lot of bad timing to be honest. At the same time the umpire decided to call the infield fly rule it happens to be the same time that the shortstop flinched. Did the umpire yell it before he raised his arm? If so, did the shortstop hear someone yelling from that direction and think it was the left fielder. He clearly glances in that direction as he bailed out (the outfielder was in the other direction) so something spooked him from that way.

If that was the case, the Braves really have nothing here as without the yell if would have been a catch and an out with runners still at 1st and 2nd.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

If nobody catches it you can run without tagging. If they caught it they most certainly would have gone back to their bases.

But don't they have to tag up because the IF fly was called?

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by tarcone

No. I saw the play again. It was a late call by the ump. It looks like he was waiting to see if Kozma could get to it. Which he would have. Had he not thought Holliday called him off or heard footsteps.
This play is in the definition of the infield fly rule.

If it was 50 feet closer to the infield, sure.

[King of New York]

Wash puts in an angry, vengeful Uehara--slick move.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Are you standing by your argument that the call was made immediately? Because it clearly wasn't and an infield fly call has to be made immediately.

The infield fly rule can be made as late as the catch. it does not have to be made immediately. Preferably it should be made on its descent or at its highest point. But this does not have to happen.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

If it was 50 feet closer to the infield, sure.

Infield fly rule is defined as an infielder is able to camp under a fly ball. It has nothing to do with being on the infield.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The infield fly rule can be made as late as the catch. it does not have to be made immediately. Preferably it should be made on its descent or at its highest point. But this does not have to happen.

You are wrong. The rules state "When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare Infield Fly for the benefit of the runners."

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by From MLB.com

When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare “Infield Fly” for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near the baselines, the umpire shall declare “Infield Fly, if Fair.”
The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.

I read the bold part to say that the umpire calls it an infield fly immediately once he determines it is an infield fly. So, if that umpire didn't think it was until he thought the SS was going to catch it, then it might be the right call.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You are wrong. The rules state "When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare Infield Fly for the benefit of the runners."

Exactly. When it seems apparent..........

It wasnt apparent until he was about to the ball.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by tarcone

No. I saw the play again. It was a late call by the ump. It looks like he was waiting to see if Kozma could get to it. Which he would have. Had he not thought Holliday called him off or heard footsteps.
This play is in the definition of the infield fly rule.

The point of the infield fly rule is you don't have to wait and see if it can be caught, the point is you assume it is going to be caught, so that the team in the field doesn't try to pull any tricks. That's why it's supposed to be called immediately.

[tarcone]

Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly) Comment: On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder—not by some arbitrary limitation such as the grass, or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire’s judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire’s judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately.

Arbitrary and subjective definitions. Just like offsides in Soccer, eh?

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by tarcone

The infield fly rule can be made as late as the catch. it does not have to be made immediately. Preferably it should be made on its descent or at its highest point. But this does not have to happen.

At first I was going to disagree with this, but after reading the rule book, I think you are right. The rulebook says that as soon the umpire makes the determination, he has to make the call immediately--but it allows the umpire to make the determination at any point during the play. The immediately applies to the umpire's decision, not to the flight of the ball.

Probably the rule should be rewritten to take into account a situation like the one that happened tonight.

Also, it looked to me like Chipper was dogging it on his final at bat, jogging slowly down the line until the bad throw.

[spleen1015]

Come on O's. Don't blow this thing.

[tarcone]

Go O's.

Rangers are about to be blown up. Who takes on Hamilton?

[spleen1015]

YESSSSSSSSSS!!

[Crapshoot]

PS, Rooting for the O's here. That's a great franchise that deserves better than the reign of Angelos and Thrift.

[mauchow]

He wasn't even close to camping under the ball either. He was still backing up. Still the wrong call.

[King of New York]

Pinch-runner for Thome?

[tarcone]

He was almost under it and would have been camping. Thats why the ump made the call.
He bailed for some reason. Probably heard footsteps. But he would have been camped.

[mauchow]

Originally Posted by tarcone

He was almost under it and would have been camping. Thats why the ump made the call.
He bailed for some reason. Probably heard footsteps. But he would have been camped.

So you're saying he WASN'T camped after all. He never camped. EVER. ALMOST doesn't count in this situation. Not even for a split second did he camp. He was waiving the outfielder off and then never even made it to where the ball ended up. Never camped. Never. Never. Never.

I'm a Cubs fan, maybe I'm just pissed that the Cardinals made it into the best of 5.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Infield fly rule is defined as an infielder is able to camp under a fly ball. It has nothing to do with being on the infield.

I'd agree with you if not for my opinion that he wasn't camped under the ball. His body language suggested that he was settling in for an easy catch, but the ball hit the turf four or five feet away from where he was when he finally peeled off. His momentum was taking him to his right towards the left field corner, but the ball comes down the other direction (to his left). IMO, by the end he wasn't even moving in the right direction to make a play on the ball.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Pinch-runner for Thome?

I don't know why they waited until after the double to do it....

[King of New York]

Gah, that was a fat picth, Manny.

[King of New York]

Manny doesn't need fat pitches!

[spleen1015]

GJ Machado.

[Lathum]

great piece of hitting

[King of New York]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Wash for pulling Uehara after striking out the side, and putting in Nathan instead.

[EagleFan]

Some drama in the 9th.

[EagleFan]

Just as I type that he pops up.

[spleen1015]

Bring on the Yankees.

[EagleFan]

Who got hurt in a celebration?

[CraigSca]

Not what I expected...all year. Continuing to play with house money...this has been pretty fun.

[Buccaneer]

Amazing collapse. 10 days ago the Rangers were 5 up and now they do not even make the real playoffs.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Losing the World Series in game 6, then game 7, now this. What a crap set of three years to be a Rangers fan.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Losing the World Series in game 6, then game 7, now this. What a crap set of three years to be a Rangers fan.

At least you've had a shot.

- Signed a Toronto Blue Jays fan.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

At least you've had a shot.

- Signed a Toronto Blue Jays fan.

Ugh

-KC

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I hadn't seen it until now...holy shit. THAT far out??

Was totally wrapped up in HS football, so I knew nothing until reading the recaps a few minutes ago. And I'm seeing any pic for the first time here.

O.M.G.

[DanGarion]

[fantom1979]

I have watched the infield fly play frame by frame several times now. I am sure by this point, everyone has their mind made up (especially Braves and Cardinals fans), but here is what I saw in the video:

1. The time from ball hit to ball lands was about 6 seconds
2. The umpire calls infield fly about 1/2 second before the ball lands
3. I am pretty confident that the shortstop would have caught, or at least had a play on the ball if he had continued his progress
4. The umpire does not call infield fly (with his hand motion) until the shortstop breaks off the ball.


Personally I don't think it should have been an infield fly, due to the depth of the ball and the length of time it took to call it. I believe that the spirit of the rule is to stop defensive players from intentionally dropping the ball to pull off a double play. From that depth, I do not think such a play was possible. I believe that the umpire erred due to the shortstop selling the "easy catch" and possibly due to the umpire getting lost (starting in LF instead of 3B).

This play will go down like Buckner and Bartman. While it hurt the Braves, it was not the only reason they lost this game.

[stevew]

Seems like it's way too far out for an infield fly, but whatever.

[Alan T]

So is this where I get to ask when the real umps in baseball are coming back and we can get rid of the replacement umps from the Braves game?

[CraigSca]

I really don't understand why the SS broke away. It looked a lot like he was called off by someone, but it didn't look like it was the leftfielder.

[Dutch]

That's basically what happened here, I suspect, CraigSca. The SS is tracking backwards for so long that I'll bet he was anticipating the OF to call him off, particularly since the level of difficulty was no long routine. It looks like he heard something, obviously not the outfielder, but something, and he tried to move out of the way.

I think the umpire was reading into the rule too much and lost track of just how impossible the double-play was in that scenario and just botched it in the few seconds that he had to make a determination.

[MizzouCowboy]

I can see two scenarios why Kozma pulled out of the play,

First, it appears to me on the video that as soon as Kozma raises his hand to let Holliday know that he's got it, the infield fly is called. Makes me wonder if the ump yelled "out" or "infield fly" at that time, confusing Kozma.

The other scenario is earlier in the game, Kozma retreated to a similar depth in centerfield and made the putout. Immediately after, Jon Jay says something to Kozma. Who knows, but he may have been saying "hey kid, that's the outfielders ball". Possibly on the infield fly what Jay said to him made him bail.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Wait, wait, weren't you telling us in the other thread how the Phillies were going to make the playoffs despite being 13 out?

You lack reading comprehension. I said they would be be competitive, get to .500 and make a run. They did just that. I NEVER said they were going to the playoffs.

[Sun Tzu]

Congrats to the O's! It's going to be tough if the Orioles and Giants meet in the World Series. My childhood team against my adulthood team.

[MizzouRah]

I'm happy the Cardinals made it, but I agree with those who said that was a horrible call when they called infield fly on that gaffe by Kozma. Cardinals got lucky on that one.

I don't think we will make it past the Nationals though.