High School Football Thread 2012-13

[albionmoonlight]

You saw the coach and teammate running with him, and they were both positioning themselves between 88 and the other team, assuming that 88 was going to try and fight them. I don't think it occurred to anyone that he was going for the ref until he actually did it.

[Ghost Econ]

What similar incident was he suspended for in soccer and how was he still allowed to play any high school sports.

[BYU 14]

I don't know if that kid has schollies on tap, but I hope schools back off, especially if this has been an ongoing thing. There should have been a coach in his face and getting him to the bench to calm down after the ejection, which would have put them in a position to stop him from going on the field. Kid would never play for me again and i hope his stupid ass gets charged with assault.

[sovereignstar v2]

I'm sure that young man is getting all the mental help he needs.

Borat: Not!

[Edward64]

Roid rage.

[BYU 14]

So class A assault charges for that kid (misdemeanor) and district pulled his team from the playoffs.

[tarcone]

And you wonder why there is a shortage of officials in HS sports.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by tarcone

And you wonder why there is a shortage of officials in HS sports.

It is a thankless job and I have made a concerted effort to keep my tongue in check in recent seasons. Especially when it is apparent the crew is trying and they communicate well.

[larrymcg421]

Auburrn High has a 9 point lead with 28 seconds left in the state championship and finds a way to lose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb9bHoavOGw

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Auburrn High has a 9 point lead with 28 seconds left in the state championship and finds a way to lose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb9bHoavOGw

The truly sad part of that for Auburn is the Thompson Kicker was offsides on the on side kick and the officials missed it. You have to make contact with the ball before anyone on the KO teams passes the line the ball is teed up on and his plant foot hit past the line before he kicked it. Just a little extra twist of the blade

[JonInMiddleGA]

Winding down to the final GHSA title game of the season, just tossing in a note that might be interesting to especially the long time participants in this thread.

Some of the color commentary this year was handled by Coach Bryan Lamar, the current head coach of ... the Tucker Tigers. He was really good in the role IMO, though you know he'd rather have been coaching than talking.

Getting the tone right in that role has proven tough for all manner of personalities, I felt like he really hit the mark.

[miami_fan]

Lawsuits, secret taping and the unraveling of a powerhouse high school football program

Though there are allegations that Alabama and Georgia pay five to six figures for players, this is a story about small town high school football in the South.

[GrantDawg]

You mean the allegations that the person that said them admitted were lies and signed an affidavit to that? Those allegations?

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[miami_fan]

I mean that it is now well established that we accept that colleges pay certain players to come to their schools and we really don't care whether they do or not.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I suspect this may foreshadow the outcome for Propst. (His long time top assistant departs Valdosta, taking the HC job at a south Georgia Class A school, albeit a marginally successful one)

Pelham football hires top Valdosta assistant

[JonInMiddleGA]

Soooo .. yesterday, that top Valdosta assistant I mentioned backed out on taking the smaller school job. (the 2nd time this decade he's done that to a school btw). That might have foreshadowed something, but not what I would have guessed.

The GHSA dropped the hammer (relative to what we usually see) on Valdosta this morning

The Georgia High School Association has fined Valdosta at least $5,000, banned the football team from the 2021 playoffs and declared an unspecified number of players ineligible, which likely will lead to forfeiting the team’s seven 2020 victories.

That ban is notable, as it's something rarely used here (last time was 2013 on a metro ATL basketball team that basically held open tryout camps for prospective transfer). I can only think of only one other football postseason ban and that was for a violent incident that occurred in-season.

The fine is also notable. While it may sound like loose change in the context of larger sports, it represents the largest single fine ever levied by the state governing body.

I have to think this might be a career-ender for Propst.

GHSA fines, bans Valdosta football from playoffs | Georgia high school football

[miami_fan]

I don't believe this will become a wide spread thing but this is one of two similar stories that caught my eye this morning. The fact that he is a running back might be the key detail. Gotta save those hits for when you get paid.

EDIT: Probably should add the link to the story.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/...exas-longhorns

[Ghost Econ]

I should have said that's what I was doing. I mean I never played organized football, but it I had just opted out every year, I could have had a 10 year NFL career.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Speaking of HS football, the Valdosta sage continues (it may never end).

That meeting to reconsider Propst contract was abruptly cancelled. But that's not really the reason I'm mentioning it again. Oh no, the circus remains in full three ring mode in Valdosta.

In the absence of their HC (or a new HC decision), they put an interim in charge and you ain't gonna believe who they chose: Shelton Felton.

That name will be familiar to at least some of you I suspect. Prior to being hired as the Valdosta special teams coordinator a couple months ago, he was most recently an assistant coach at Tennessee. Yes, THAT Tennessee. The Vols fired him after he was heavily implicated in the paying players scandal.

Yep, perhaps only in Valdosta would they fire the head coach who got them a year's suspension from the post-season for paying players and then replace him with a guy who got fired elsewhere for ... paying players.

[GrantDawg]

Valdosta firmly believes if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

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[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Valdosta firmly believes if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

They just can't figure out who the right person to do their cheating is.

That school board has pretty much already clinched back-to-back Worst Administration In Georgia title for a second straight year. It's rare for me to think merging a city/county system in this state would be a good idea but that clown show has me wondering hard.

[BYU 14]

And I complain about the shenanigan's in Arizona High School Football LOL

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

And I complain about the shenanigan's in Arizona High School Football LOL

This is, to my knowledge, a more recent turn of events for Valdosta (aka Winnersville), at least at this scale.

There was always a certain amount of talk about {cough} shenanigans with players flipping between them and their local rival Lowndes County, maybe some stuff about move-ins from surrounding counties (though honestly I never believed much of that, it's 'Dosta/Lowndes, the brand name & success is plenty to move players from the next county over)

They aren't even in the top 10, maybe not even top 20, of programs that come to mind in this state when I think about dirty programs. Elsewhere there's creatively manipulated enrollment figures, an influx of international olympic athletes (non-revenue sports) who suddenly found themselves under the legal guardianship of assistant coaches, teams with entirely new rosters (for b'ball) or new starting lineups (for football), those are things associated with other places than Valdosta.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

This is, to my knowledge, a more recent turn of events for Valdosta (aka Winnersville), at least at this scale.

There was always a certain amount of talk about {cough} shenanigans with players flipping between them and their local rival Lowndes County, maybe some stuff about move-ins from surrounding counties (though honestly I never believed much of that, it's 'Dosta/Lowndes, the brand name & success is plenty to move players from the next county over)

They aren't even in the top 10, maybe not even top 20, of programs that come to mind in this state when I think about dirty programs. Elsewhere there's creatively manipulated enrollment figures, an influx of international olympic athletes (non-revenue sports) who suddenly found themselves under the legal guardianship of assistant coaches, teams with entirely new rosters (for b'ball) or new starting lineups (for football), those are things associated with other places than Valdosta.

Funny, I was just going to ask if this was a situation similar to college sports where if we dug deep enough we could find dirt in every successful program.

[albionmoonlight]

I grew up in an area without major HS sports, so I'm curious what the bottom line is.

I understand the incentives for major cheating at the big college and professional levels. Those programs generate a ton of money and booster support, so there's a huge incentive to cheat and win and keep the money coming in.

But do HS sports generate that much money? I always kind of figured that they either cost money or broke even with ticket sales and ads in the stadium and whatnot. And I guess you'll get a donation drive to build a new fieldhouse or whatever. But, in general, HS sports isn't where the money is.

Am I just wrong about that? Are these super dirty schools actually generating revenue by winning that would dry up if they started losing?

Or is it just a pride thing and not really about the money?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I grew up in an area without major HS sports, so I'm curious what the bottom line is.

I understand the incentives for major cheating at the big college and professional levels. Those programs generate a ton of money and booster support, so there's a huge incentive to cheat and win and keep the money coming in.

But do HS sports generate that much money? I always kind of figured that they either cost money or broke even with ticket sales and ads in the stadium and whatnot. And I guess you'll get a donation drive to build a new fieldhouse or whatever. But, in general, HS sports isn't where the money is.

Am I just wrong about that? Are these super dirty schools actually generating revenue by winning that would dry up if they started losing?

Or is it just a pride thing and not really about the money?

More the pride, in terms of why the money is available.
More of a mixture for the coaches involved I believe.

There's around 10% of HS football HCs in Georgia that have cracked the $100k mark for official salary. In some markets the under the table money + benefits (new car leases are popular, lots of free food) exceeds the salary.
To be fair, there's also the "keep up or get fired" aspect of it.

I believe there's almost certainly more dirty behavior taking place at also-rans that have brief flurries of success (think Ole Miss kinda stuff) than at the perennial powers.

There's also some stuff that's harder to quantify involved IMO. The impact of successful athletics on some of these schools / towns cannot be overstated. It's the only reason anyone would consider moving to them / their district, the only thing the town/school really has to hang their hat on. Easy enough to label that as simply "pride" but it's also important for their survival / development / growth in some cases.

As for the profit / loss, you're accurate in one sense, a lot of the athletic departments are break even propositions at best. But taken individually, winning football programs can fund the entire athletic department and often do. I remember the first time I heard about a $1 million a year booster club ... and that was back in the 90s. And it wasn't Valdosta.

[miami_fan]

Complex

This is insane.

[miami_fan]

Here is the first part of the story.

New details about Bishop Sycamore emerged Monday, with ESPN releasing the following statement about Sunday’s debacle. It turns out, the team also played a game on Friday, which made Sunday’s game its second in just three days.

According to Awful Announcing, the game was scheduled by Paragon Marketing Group, whose president, Rashid Ghazi, denied having knowledge of Bishop Sycamore’s Friday game. Ghazi also said the company did not do due diligence in researching the team.

“We regret that this happened and have discussed it with Paragon, which secured the matchup and handles the majority of our high school event scheduling,” ESPN said in an official statement. “They have ensured us that they will take steps to prevent this kind of situation from happening moving forward.”

The outlet also confirmed that the Ohio High School Athletic Association doesn’t recognize Bishop Sycamore as a legitimate high school, and their “physical location, practice facilities, and roster eligibility could not be verified.”

[BYU 14]

I was reading that earlier and this is totally on ESPN. Their love affair with IMG is well documented and they are ultimately responsible for this.

Quite frankly this whole super school thing is ridiculous, but that is another rant. Bottom line is putting a school that overmatched, coming off a game 2 days prior is a dereliction of due diligence, kids are in a position to have been seriously hurt and yes some of that lies directly on the Bishop Sycamore HC too, clout chasing an ESPN national game instead of looking out for his kids.

[RainMaker]

They used to do this scam in college (might still do it). Some tiny unaccredited Christian school of 100 kids would play road games against some lower-end D1 schools. Cash a few $50k checks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I was reading that earlier and this is totally on ESPN. Their love affair with IMG is well documented and they are ultimately responsible for this.

Quite frankly this whole super school thing is ridiculous, but that is another rant. Bottom line is putting a school that overmatched, coming off a game 2 days prior is a dereliction of due diligence, kids are in a position to have been seriously hurt and yes some of that lies directly on the Bishop Sycamore HC too, clout chasing an ESPN national game instead of looking out for his kids.

Actually (per USA Today, tho I've seen it reported elsewhere earlier too)

Bishop Sycamore has multiple matchups against powerhouses remaining in 2021, with opponents including Duncanville (Texas), St. Edward (Ohio) and DeMatha Catholic (Maryland).

Presumably all of those are not ESPN games so that doesn't seem to be the motivation for the scam underway there.

This seems much more likely to be a story that isn't unique -- damned if I can recall whether it was espn or someone else who covered it -- something akin to this made the news in the past few years, where a school that wasn't really a school overscheduled itself tremendously, eventually going bust IIRC.

[RainMaker]

That makes more sense. Someone's eyes got a little too big.

[JonInMiddleGA]

btw, Paragon Marketing Group -- who secures the rights for a lot of the HS games that ESPN airs, including this one -- is headed by Rashid Ghazi

The same guy who will be the chairman for this breakaway HS basketball league

High school basketball powerhouses form national league set to begin in 2021-22 season

And that league will be in competition of sorts with this one based in Atlanta. Its investors include Drake, KD, 'Melo, and Trae Young.
Overtime Elite building basketball facility in Atlanta for top prep players

[thesloppy]

This story is pretty crazy....one of those articles was suggesting that most of the Bishop Sycamore kids are out of high school, 19-21 years old & some have played JuCo ball already.

[JonInMiddleGA]

All that said, there were close to a dozen games in Georgia alone this past weekend, that were less competitive than the one aired on ESPN.

We're still in non-region portion of the schedule here, meaning all those games were undertaken voluntarily, without the glitz or glamour of TV lights (national or otherwise).

We also now have teams playing as many as 7 of their 10 regular season games at home - the underpowered team having sold off the hosting rights to the opponent (a bigger payday for them than they could have gotten for playing before sparse crowds at home)

While B.S. High seems to have been a scam, don't get too caught up in the handwringing over the disparity. ESPN isn't upset because of the mismatch, they're upset because they knew a blowout wouldn't hold viewers.

[tarcone]

Im watching Titletown HS and it is focusing on Valdosta. Is Probst still there?

Meanwhile, our HS is in their 2nd year with a 3 time state title winning coach. Our team beat the local catholic school 30-12 last night. 1st time our HS beat them since 1995.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im watching Titletown HS and it is focusing on Valdosta. Is Probst still there?
.

Nah, was fired after losing a pissing contest with the local booster club president.

His replacement was none other than Shelton Felton ... you remember him? The assistant who was a key part of the dirty doings that got Jeremy Pruitt fired at UT.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nah, was fired after losing a pissing contest with the local booster club president.

His replacement was none other than Shelton Felton ... you remember him? The assistant who was a key part of the dirty doings that got Jeremy Pruitt fired at UT.

Nice.

The show mentioned something about the booster president and probst both being big personalities and it may cause an issue.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Nice.

The show mentioned something about the booster president and probst both being big personalities and it may cause an issue.

Did Rush fuck up? Yep.

Was the booster club president who secretly taped conversations with him doing so for purely altrustic reasons? Your answer will dictate whether I try to sell you some valuable swamp land.

[JonInMiddleGA]

A minor discovery I made amid the whole B.S. "high school" scandal: I didn't realize that IMG fields four different teams, including a "post-graduate" one.

Best I could figure, there's a "national" squad, then two more HS teams ("blue" and "white" - both apparently considered varsity level teams) and then the post-grad version.

[RainMaker]

I don't follow high school football too much but what is the cause for the disparity in teams at that level? I went to a perennial playoff school and while we had blowouts, it was never 70-0 type stuff.

Are these schools that "recruit"?

The highlight of my career was a pick-6 against Kurt Kittner. I don't tell the story of him proceeding to throw for like 500 yards after that.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't follow high school football too much but what is the cause for the disparity in teams at that level? I went to a perennial playoff school and while we had blowouts, it was never 70-0 type stuff.

Are these schools that "recruit"?

The highlight of my career was a pick-6 against Kurt Kittner. I don't tell the story of him proceeding to throw for like 500 yards after that.

It can happen for a variety of reasons. Funding was a BIG one for Tucker when I was there. The county provided funding for four coaches per program. Tucker always had somewhere in the 14-20 range, virtually all of whom were coaching positions they'd played at the collegiate level. Tucker had a better weight room, practice field, etc. etc. etc. than every other public school in the area. That all came from funds raised by the booster club. Once you get to that point, you really don't have to "recruit," per se. I recall one year when the county wrestling tournament was at Tucker. I was standing chit-chatting with the head football coach at the tournament for a while. Probably 10 kids and/or parents came up to him in the half hour or so I was standing there asking the same thing: "what do I have to do to come play for Tucker?" The answer was always the same "move to Tucker." Some kids moved; others gave fake addresses. Another convo I had with the same head coach before a particular season: "Ben, I don't know what to do. I've got three transfers on this team who have the same address and I have no reason to believe they're related. Do I point-blank accuse their parents of lying, or run the risk of getting in trouble for having ineligible players???"

And in legendary places like Valdosta, I'm sure that jobs get offered to dads of top-tier talent if they'll just move to V-town. Nothing coordinated by the school, but by local folks who've followed the team for decades and want to keep winning.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't follow high school football too much but what is the cause for the disparity in teams at that level? I went to a perennial playoff school and while we had blowouts, it was never 70-0 type stuff.

Are these schools that "recruit"?

The highlight of my career was a pick-6 against Kurt Kittner. I don't tell the story of him proceeding to throw for like 500 yards after that.

First, let's separate IMG from "high schools". They're an athletic training factory that might offer some classes.

As to the common nature of blowouts like this, a lot of times there's no need to "recruit" in any sense that would be improper. Success makes a program attractive, be it public or private. "Build it and they will come" applies at least as often in Georgia as any sort of illegal recruiting occurs.

I've seen a lot of mismatches in recent years, maybe only a half dozen that were to the level of "okay, this borders on child abuse" caliber stuff. Those were pretty much always the responsibility of the program on the short end of things, most often trying to punch above their weight in tragic fashion. Schools that shouldn't be competing at a varsity level* trying to do so typically.



Massive blowouts -- let's say 50 points or more -- most often occur in the region portion of the season; i.e. games that you are required to play (teams are grouped based on enrollmment size and geography) End up with a top tier team in an otherwise weak area and it can get ugly quick. Running up the score isn't unheard of but honestly it's pretty rare IMO. But if they can't tackle your 5th string RB in the 3rd quarter, well, things happen. There could be some triple-digit margins if a number of teams here wanted to pull it off. A lot of games are 42-0 at the half and wind up 52-7 (partially due to a "running clock" mercy rule that applies here at various margins after 2 qtrs or after 3 qtrs)

Otherwise, teams end up in that situation for a variety of reasons. One perennial patsy (Cross Keys) has something like 98% ESOL enrollment, football is not exactly a tradition for them. They played a non-region scheduled in 2019, went 0-10 (again) and were outscored 517-45. They allowed 55 pts or more six times, never allowed less than 30, never scored more than 12.

Other cases are more standard lack of depth and talent based. Small school (Towns County) in an area that's largely a retirement community, only 1 winning season in 46 years of football. 2019 went 0-10, outscored 537-89, gave up 55 or more 6 times. They lost 55-12 to a team that snapped a 33 game losing streak with the win. We (Acad) hung 77 on 'em while trying to hold the score down. We had a half dozen guys that are now playing college ball but they played less than a quarter. But when your own roster only has 40-50 players, well ... you can only go so far down the depth chart.

One that could have a long 2021 season (outscored 87-13 by mediocre teams at best in an 0-2 start) lost most of their talent after a 2020 pay-to-play scandal emerged, so now those players are gone AND most of the existing roster transferred elsewhere too. Their schedule includes 3 top 10 teams before season end.

Mobility for players certainly plays a factor. One team struggling so far this season graduated 4 of their top 5 players, their best one left when his HC dad changed jobs. 2 more top players transferred out after seeing the writing on the wall (no hint of "recruiting", their families simply pulled up stakes and went to situations better suited for their student/athletes) They'll go from a top 5 in their class program last year to struggling to hit .500 this year and blowouts aren't out of the question. Another factor are camps, etc. Top players know top players from around the state, and more than once here in recent have those players decided they wanted to play together. Their families all made "bonafide moves" (i.e. they sold their house & moved to another town) so it was completely legal. The school they landed at didn't have to recruit them, the players did their homework, picked the situation and arrived as a group, effectively creating a superteam (who did NOT win a state title btw)

Changes in the game also play a factor in increasing the blowout frequency. It's an offensive game these days, a lot of teams go 4-5 wide at all times, some even take a knee from a shotgun snap. If your playbook is designed to score quickly and often, it's hard for even the 4th string to avoid big plays if that's what you teach from middle school onward.


*you have the option of playing a "non-region" schedule here, makes you ineligible for the post-season since you play a mixture of other bottom feeders and JV opponents with your varsity squad. Typically done for the first couple years of a new startup program or to allow some rebuilding time for one that's truly in the bottom of the bottom -- and we have over 400 HS teams, so the bottom is a looooong way down)

[BYU 14]

Jon gives a pretty solid summary and like he said, IMG is a prep school on steroids and while there is no other program quite like them, most states have "super schools" now, Chandler here in AZ, Corner Canyon in Utah, Bishop Gorman in NV, De La Salle in Cali etc.

As Jon also mentioned many of these schools play each other in pre region games, or play completely independent schedules.

It is a vastly different game than 10-15 years ago and unrecognizable from when I started coaching HS ball in 1987. And I don't mean that at all in a good way, but that train ain't stopping now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Jon gives a pretty solid summary and like he said, IMG is a prep school on steroids and while there is no other program quite like them, most states have "super schools" now, Chandler here in AZ, Corner Canyon in Utah, Bishop Gorman in NV, De La Salle in Cali etc.

Oddly enough, we don't really have that in Georgia ... for football.

Basketball on the other hand, well ....

[JonInMiddleGA]

The headline doesn't include the key point thus far: the HC has been fired according to the "director"

Bishop Sycamore football director on ESPN game: Program not a 'scam'

[RainMaker]

Thanks for the long explanation. Never really thought about how the more offensive game changed things. Probably don't see a lot of power I in the high levels anymore.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Thanks for the long explanation. Never really thought about how the more offensive game changed things. Probably don't see a lot of power I in the high levels anymore.

Won't really see that at any level in Georgia today. Not even at the independent organizations (beyond the main sanctioning body we have at least two more organizations that run indepedently, mostly tiny Christian schools now).

Still a few Wing-T teams around, straight I running teams sure, some flexbone stuff ... but you've got pee-wee teams that are multi wideout now.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Won't really see that at any level in Georgia today. Not even at the independent organizations (beyond the main sanctioning body we have at least two more organizations that run indepedently, mostly tiny Christian schools now).

Still a few Wing-T teams around, straight I running teams sure, some flexbone stuff ... but you've got pee-wee teams that are multi wideout now.

And we still run Double Wing, but that is a necessity at an inner city school that cannot play the speed/tempo game of the spread. DW allows us to compete against schools with superior athletes, gives us an identity the kids take pride in and its tough to prepare for when all you see is cookie cutter spread.

And, it's kind of sexy as you can see from our money play power.

https://youtu.be/xHepyLxTzsU

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Won't really see that at any level in Georgia today. Not even at the independent organizations (beyond the main sanctioning body we have at least two more organizations that run indepedently, mostly tiny Christian schools now).

Still a few Wing-T teams around, straight I running teams sure, some flexbone stuff ... but you've got pee-wee teams that are multi wideout now.

I had to look up what my old high school was doing now. Seems spread offense, just about everything in shotgun. They did win a state title a few years ago, so seems to be working.

It used to be an old-school coach who ran a 3-man T formation. We were a big school that produced a lot of D1 linemen, so we would run all over most schools. But there always seemed to be a ceiling when you have a style like that and go up against the top schools.

Wonder how many schools went through that transformation of having some legendary coach who ran the wishbone or whatever for 40 years being pushed aside for some modern systems. Technically they may have been winning games, but were never going to be more than a pretty good team as long as they ran an outdated system.