Duke lacrosse thugs?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

It would be one thing to do a good enough job that Joe Sportsfan would see the images flashed on a TV screen and think they looked real. But if they entered fakes as evidence, an expert would be able to determine they weren't legit and these kids would be done like dinner.

But you notice in the article, they haven't entered them into evidence. They have only entered them into the court of opinions. They have yet to give anything to the prosecutors. Isn't it interesting they have had this exonerating evidence this whole time, something that could save them a good bit of grief and probably their season, but some how have not showed it to anybody until now? Something smells here.

[GrantDawg]

and with that, I'm out of this discussion. Once we see the DNA test, we'll know what's going on.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

But you notice in the article, they haven't entered them into evidence. They have only entered them into the court of opinions. They have yet to give anything to the prosecutors. Isn't it interesting they have had this exonerating evidence this whole time, something that could save them a good bit of grief and probably their season, but some how have not showed it to anybody until now? Something smells here.

No evidence has been entered by either side because no charges have been filed yet. The defense team was keeping quiet in public while the DA was giving 70+ interviews to news media.

w/regards to their season, 2 games were played and a third scheduled after the night in question, including after all 46 players gave DNA samples, until the news media started publicizing the story. Sadly enough, even if a rape occurred, their season would probably still be going on if the story hadn't gotten so much publicity and pressure on the administration.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

No evidence has been entered by either side because no charges have been filed yet. The defense team was keeping quiet in public while the DA was giving 70+ interviews to news media.

What I meant was they have not given these pictures to the prosecutors. I am sorry if that was to hard to understand.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

What I meant was they have not given these pictures to the prosecutors. I am sorry if that was to hard to understand.

My reading between the lines says that there is evidence of other crimes in the pictures (read: underage drinking) and the defense lawyers are worried they'll be charged with that if the rape charges fall through. So while the pictures may help with regards to the rape charges, they prove guilt on lesser charges. Either way, all this stuff should be going on behind closed doors, but once one side goes public....

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

My reading between the lines says that there is evidence of other crimes in the pictures (read: underage drinking) and the defense lawyers are worried they'll be charged with that if the rape charges fall through.

That's just silly. Any defendant would gladly take a minor underage drinking citation to make this rape controversy go away. There may be other reasons why these pictures are just coming out now, but fear of an underage drinking charge is not one of them.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

LOL you are a joke.

I deleted what I posted about you before, but I won't this time. Grantdawg has contributed more to this board than you can begin to comprehend. He is usually a good read and always a valuable member of this community.

You, on the other hand, have proven to be an ass and a troll since you have arrived. You have regularly picked fights with other members and contributed next to nothing to FOFC. So, before you call other members as "a joke," you should really take a long look in the mirror.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by John Galt

That's just silly. Any defendant would gladly take a minor underage drinking citation to make this rape controversy go away.

These pictures alone aren't enough to make it go away. Even if all 46 DNA samples come back negative that's not enough to just make it go away, so it makes sense in my mind to avoid admitting to anything until those results come back and they figure out what they are being charged with.

But I could very well be wrong, I'm no lawyer and luckily I'm not too familiar with how cases like this normally go.

[molson]

ESPN says the DNA tests are done, and that the DA’s office and police have them. Defense is supposed to get copies shortly. I imagine that if the results clear them completely, the defense attorneys will make them public pretty quickly.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

ESPN says the DNA tests are done, and that the DA’s office and police have them. Defense is supposed to get copies shortly. I imagine that if the results clear them completely, the defense attorneys will make them public pretty quickly.

Funny quote from the ESPN article

Originally Posted by ESPN article

Candy Clark, administrative assistant to District Attorney Mike Nifong, said Monday that the prosecutor would not comment on the results. She said copies were being made Monday afternoon for defense attorneys.
"If the defense releases them, that's up to them,'' Clark said. "If charges are going to be pending, he can't be discussing them.''

That didn't seem to be his attitude last week.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by molson

ESPN says the DNA tests are done, and that the DA’s office and police have them. Defense is supposed to get copies shortly. I imagine that if the results clear them completely, the defense attorneys will make them public pretty quickly.

Does anyone know what these DNA samples are of? Without knowing that, I'm unclear how the samples will prove much of anything.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Does anyone know what these DNA samples are of? Without knowing that, I'm unclear how the samples will prove much of anything.

If they did the whole rape kit thing and had semen from the body of the victim, it would prove who had sex with her. If she was clawing at them and had skin or blood under her fingernails it would prove who's that was. I seem to recall the fingernail thing being mentioned in the affidavit, but I don't know for sure what they were testing for. Overall in the beginning I remember it sounding like they were going to use the DNA to identify which 3 of the 46 were involved in the rape, but I don't know if I got that impression from the prosecutor, and what he would have to test this, or just my impression.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

If they did the whole rape kit thing and had semen from the body of the victim, it would prove who had sex with her. If she was clawing at them and had skin or blood under her fingernails it would prove who's that was. I seem to recall the fingernail thing being mentioned in the affidavit, but I don't know for sure what they were testing for. Overall in the beginning I remember it sounding like they were going to use the DNA to identify which 3 of the 46 were involved in the rape, but I don't know if I got that impression from the prosecutor, and what he would have to test this, or just my impression.

If it's semen, then that is definitely important. If there is no semen, however, that really doesn't prove anything (condoms). If they have skin fragments from below the fingernails, that may be the most important evidence. But it's unclear to me how DNA can ever really exonerate anyone in this case (unless I'm missing something) without pointing to someone else within the group. The fact that they have samples at all is interesting, but I'm really in the dark about how these could clear the lacrosse players as a whole.

[Huckleberry]

The DA ordered the tests. This indicates they had samples recovered from the woman (semen, skin, blood are possibilities). If the DNA tests show that none of the suspects match that DNA, then they know those samples did not come from any of the players.

Possible explanation could be that the woman was raped by someone else. The photos allegedly show that the woman left the house in an unconscious condition.

Anyway, just more possibilities. I don't see why the prosecution would order DNA tests without samples from the woman.

[BishopMVP]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2404002

DURHAM, N.C. -- There is no DNA match between members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team and an exotic dancer who told police she was sexually assaulted at a team party, attorneys for some of the team's players said Monday.
Citing DNA test results delivered by the state crime lab to police and prosecutors a few hours earlier, the attorneys said the test results prove their clients did not sexually assault and beat a stripper hired to perform at a March 13 team party.
No charged have been filed in the case.
"No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman," said defense attorney Wade Smith.

[SirFozzie]

Well now, this is interesting.. if true.

[bulletsponge]

nothing was on her body! no skin or saliva or semen! im suprised, even if they used rubbers i expect skin samples at least

[SirFozzie]

there may have been other people that matched, (which does give credence to the "She was F***ed up when she got here..) but APPARENTLY none of the lacrosse players matched

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Well now, this is interesting.. if true.

if true? Again, I highly doubt that highly-paid Defense attorneys in a high-profile case would send out a press release on the major point of the case without it being true.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

if true? Again, I highly doubt that highly-paid Defense attorneys in a high-profile case would send out a press release on the major point of the case without it being true.

Sure, it's far fetched, but considering where this case has gone.. it's like a bad soap opera..

[TroyF]

This entire case is bizzare.

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.

If the two main things that came out today are true (time stamped photos and no DNA match), it's going to be next to impossible to convict any of these guys for anything other than a few underage drinking charges.

Not good for the prosecution here at all.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Sure, it's far fetched, but considering where this case has gone.. it's like a bad soap opera..

I think any lawyer who purposefully put out a false press release would be liable for disbarrment.

There is still other evidence present, so I don't think this completely exonerates the players, especially when certain allegations like the underage drinking and racial slurs appear to be true, but I think on the DNA tests themselves its impossible to spin the results. You can spin what they mean (if they had come back true, defense starts saying consensual sex; if they came back no match as in this case prosecutor might still try to prosecute based off other evidence {and directly said as much, that he's 'had rape cases without DNA evidence before, and he'll do it in this case if he has to'}) but you can't spin the test results themselves.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.

I still don't get this line of thinking. Let's just say that if you are ever accused of rape and know you didn't do anything I would recommend you get an attorney immediately and do what your attorney suggests.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I deleted what I posted about you before, but I won't this time. Grantdawg has contributed more to this board than you can begin to comprehend. He is usually a good read and always a valuable member of this community.

You, on the other hand, have proven to be an ass and a troll since you have arrived. You have regularly picked fights with other members and contributed next to nothing to FOFC. So, before you call other members as "a joke," you should really take a long look in the mirror.

Relax, John. I do think my gambling dynasty was quite the contribution, especially when I went broke doing it. I taught people the pitfalls of gambling.

It is obvious that Grantdawg has it out for these Duke guys. He never once, took a wait and see approach. He accused them and read them the riot act before any evidence was present.

It appears now, this chick was lying. My point throughout this whole thing is the media made up peoples minds, not the facts.

Lets look at the evidence shall we.

1. We have a stripper/hooker accusing people of raping her
2. We have no charges at all leveled against any of the Duke players
3. We have a stripper/hooker with marks on her body
4. We have a racially sensitivy area/case so the DA has to look like he is being tough on these rich white kids
5. As we have more evidence come out, we find her "friend" is the person who called in
6. We have some dumbass kid writing an email
7. Pictures that show her hurt before she got there
8. Now we have DNA that doesn't match

America is loosing its way. These kids had their season taken from them, a coach lost his job all because of accusations. If they proved to be true, then sure all that is fine.

BUT IN AMERICA YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Something grantdawg forgot in this thread. I do agree he is a very valuable member to this community, but in this thread he lost his way. That doesn't change the fact, that I still think you are a whiney little bitch. Which, I would imagine even you have to agree with.

Have a good day.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by TroyF

This entire case is bizzare.

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.

They have been saying this, privately and publically. No one has believed their denials up until now. From the captains statement issued March 28

Statement Issued Tuesday by the Duke Captains

Durham, N.C. -- "The captains of the team met this morning with President Brodhead and expressed sincere regret over the lapse in judgment in having the party on March 13 which has caused so much anguish for the Duke community and shame to our families and ourselves.

"We also stated unequivocally that any allegation that a sexual assault or rape occurred is totally and transparently false.

"The team has cooperated with the police in their investigation. We have provided authorities with DNA samples. The understanding is that the results of the DNA testing will be available sometime next week. The DNA results will demonstrate that these allegations are absolutely false.

They've also had all the e-mails, most of which, while certainly not flattering to the team, talk about the stripper as a cracked-out whore who was offering sex for money and they laughed her off because they didn't want to get an STD. When ayone came out and said no sexual assault happened, they were assumed to be lying and covering up for their teammates.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It is in the article that she says these things happened. So, you're saying she made the claims these happened, the police looked at her and didn't find any physical indication that it did happen, but they still got a search warrant and DNA samples. Why? All of the police are North Carolina fans?

I think they are north carolina fans.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Relax, John. I do think my gambling dynasty was quite the contribution, especially when I went broke doing it. I taught people the pitfalls of gambling.

It is obvious that Grantdawg has it out for these Duke guys. He never once, took a wait and see approach. He accused them and read them the riot act before any evidence was present.

It appears now, this chick was lying. My point throughout this whole thing is the media made up peoples minds, not the facts.

Lets look at the evidence shall we.

1. We have a stripper/hooker accusing people of raping her
2. We have no charges at all leveled against any of the Duke players
3. We have a stripper/hooker with marks on her body
4. We have a racially sensitivy area/case so the DA has to look like he is being tough on these rich white kids
5. As we have more evidence come out, we find her "friend" is the person who called in
6. We have some dumbass kid writing an email
7. Pictures that show her hurt before she got there
8. Now we have DNA that doesn't match

America is loosing its way. These kids had their season taken from them, a coach lost his job all because of accusations. If they proved to be true, then sure all that is fine.

BUT IN AMERICA YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Something grantdawg forgot in this thread. I do agree he is a very valuable member to this community, but in this thread he lost his way. That doesn't change the fact, that I still think you are a whiney little bitch. Which, I would imagine even you have to agree with.

Have a good day.

You're a very poor winner, aren't you?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

America is loosing its way. These kids had their season taken from them, a coach lost his job all because of accusations. If they proved to be true, then sure all that is fine.

Let's not paint the players as saints, either. If you read my first few posts on the first page, I make no mention of the rape allegation but I do note that the players should have had no business putting themselves in an alcohol situation so indiscreetly, especially since many of them had priors. Pressler (originally from the next town over from where I live) has said that he felt betrayed by his players, not by the stripper.

http://www.courant.com/sports/highsc...rts-highschool

The underage drinking could have gotten the players suspended, depending on the program's rules. The racial taunting, if proven, will get them separated from Duke. The e-mail has already done so for one player.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

I think they are north carolina fans.

Dola: Never mind a poor winner, more like just plain poor.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Let's not paint the players as saints, either. If you read my first few posts on the first page, I make no mention of the rape allegation but I do note that the players should have had no business putting themselves in an alcohol situation so indiscreetly, especially since many of them had priors. Pressler (originally from the next town over from where I live) has said that he felt betrayed by his players, not by the stripper.

I'd have to say you never went to college. I couldn't tell you the amount of people i went to school with who shouldn't have drunk the way they did, some with some form of a record. Its called being in college... they do stupid things involving alcohol (though i'm sure someone will take these words out of context and say i promote raping someone, since this is the fofc and people can't read).

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I'd have to say you never went to college. I couldn't tell you the amount of people i went to school with who shouldn't have drunk the way they did, some with some form of a record. Its called being in college... they do stupid things involving alcohol (though i'm sure someone will take these words out of context and say i promote raping someone, since this is the fofc and people can't read).

Criminal Stupidity doesn't become magically legal at certain ages. Yes, it's a bit outside the norm, as suddenly folks are thrown outside the comfy confines of hearth and home, but that's no excuse for being a fucking idiot.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Let's not paint the players as saints, either. If you read my first few posts on the first page, I make no mention of the rape allegation but I do note that the players should have had no business putting themselves in an alcohol situation so indiscreetly, especially since many of them had priors. Pressler (originally from the next town over from where I live) has said that he felt betrayed by his players, not by the stripper.

http://www.courant.com/sports/highsc...rts-highschool

The underage drinking could have gotten the players suspended, depending on the program's rules. The racial taunting, if proven, will get them separated from Duke. The e-mail has already done so for one player.

I agree with this except for the bolded part. They were doing it at a private party with only lacrosse players and 2 other girls (the strippers) there. That's a lot more discreet than going out to a bar or other parties, which I know pretty much every college athlete here at UMass does. Should they avoid drinking at all if they are on a D1 scholarship? Probably, but (almost) no one does, and the only reason the coach/administration found out about this was because of the rape allegation.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I'd have to say you never went to college. I couldn't tell you the amount of people i went to school with who shouldn't have drunk the way they did, some with some form of a record. Its called being in college... they do stupid things involving alcohol (though i'm sure someone will take these words out of context and say i promote raping someone, since this is the fofc and people can't read).

Umm,

http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.../snapshot.aspx

Police Involvement: About 5 percent of 4-year college students are involved with the police or campus security as a result of their drinking (Wechsler et al., 2002) and an estimated 110,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are arrested for an alcohol-related violation such as public drunkenness or driving under the influence (Hingson et al., 2002).

Sure, everyone in college parties, and the campus police know it and tolerate it (at least where I went to school). That's why 95% escape college without actually getting arrested. You have to be incredibly indiscreet or be doing something egregious to actually get charged...

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Criminal Stupidity doesn't become magically legal at certain ages. Yes, it's a bit outside the norm, as suddenly folks are thrown outside the comfy confines of hearth and home, but that's no excuse for being a fucking idiot.

So you're saying this is the first college party involving alcohol and strippers? lets not pretend that the most mundane parts of this tale are any different than the things that take place at practically every college. Hell, these things (drinking and strippers) happened on my hall freshman year at a dry (no alcohol) campus. Is it stupid, yes, but its more or less the accepted norm at college.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I agree with this except for the bolded part. They were doing it at a private party with only lacrosse players and 2 other girls (the strippers) there. That's a lot more discreet than going out to a bar or other parties, which I know pretty much every college athlete here at UMass does. Should they avoid drinking at all if they are on a D1 scholarship? Probably, but (almost) no one does, and the only reason the coach/administration found out about this was because of the rape allegation.

That's a fair point. As I said, I'd probably be a bit more careful if I were on strike two. But then again, I'm not 19 anymore either...

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Umm,

http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.../snapshot.aspx



Sure, everyone in college parties, and the campus police know it and tolerate it (at least where I went to school). That's why 95% escape college without actually getting arrested. You have to be incredibly indiscreet or be doing something egregious to actually get charged...

A lot of schools I know of don't prosecute people for underage drinking but handle it internally. its only after the 5th or 6th time that they do something about it.

[SirFozzie]

The College I went to was on a completely dry campus (2 year school, etcetera). Some idiot registered, and when he was heading up to his dorm room, campus security noticed he was carrying a keg up to his room. They attempted to seize it. He decided not to allow them to seize it. They kicked him out of the school before he registered for a single course.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

So you're saying this is the first college party involving alcohol and strippers? lets not pretend that the most mundane parts of this tale are any different than the things that take place at practically every college. Hell, these things (drinking and strippers) happened on my hall freshman year at a dry (no alcohol) campus. Is it stupid, yes, but its more or less the accepted norm at college.

then the Colleges are at fault. Once again, just because you're magically no longer under mom and dad's thumbs, doesn't give you carte blanche to be an idiot. The law is the law. The law states you have to be 21 to drink alcohol legally.

And if the College knows about underage drinking ON CAMPUS, they should be criminally liable.

[panerd]

This thread has taken a very disappointing turn. Give up the alcohol and sex are not the norm at college parties arguement. It just shows you have never attended college or are very naive. (Not wrong in your arguement mind you, but very naive)

[Easy Mac]

i agree that they had no reason to act like idiots, but a lot of people here have acted like "oh my, strippers and alcohol, ban the team". Thats what guys do in college, i'd venture to say athletes do it more than the norm. doesn't make it right, but that part of the story shouldn't come as a shock.

[Easy Mac]

dola, and i agree that if the rape is even remotely proven, then they should all go to jail for a long, long time. hell, if they hit the woman they should.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

then the Colleges are at fault. Once again, just because you're magically no longer under mom and dad's thumbs, doesn't give you carte blanche to be an idiot. The law is the law. The law states you have to be 21 to drink alcohol legally.

And if the College knows about underage drinking ON CAMPUS, they should be criminally liable.

LOL. So they should make sure they kids go party off-campus, where they then drive back drunk? It'd be funnier if this wasn't exactly what my school - UMass - has been trying to do the past few years, directly leading to more high-risk behavior (binge drinking and drunk driving.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

dola, and i agree that if the rape is even remotely proven,

Umm ... shouldn't that be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Once again, just because you're magically no longer under mom and dad's thumbs, doesn't give you carte blanche to be an idiot.

Au contraire ... that seems to be a popular opinion in some segments of society today. Hell Fozzie, I'm not sure things aren't so far gone that it'd be a majority opinion if we put it to a vote.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ... shouldn't that be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" or something like that?

Nah, i see them as the same things.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

LOL. So they should make sure they kids go party off-campus, where they then drive back drunk? It'd be funnier if this wasn't exactly what my school - UMass - has been trying to do the past few years, directly leading to more high-risk behavior (binge drinking and drunk driving.)

Yeah, I don't understand this either. URI went through this about a decade ago when they decided to "go dry". The week it happened, I had to go to apply for a liquor license for a party my frat was throwing (I went to another school in the state). The official who granted my liquor license actually commented that what we were allowed/required to do was sensible compared to what was going on at URI, since the blanket on-campus prohibition really only pushed the students to risk drunk-driving.

But then again, it's Rhode Island--you never know if that official was an intelligent man with a heart of gold, or a crook!

[Glengoyne]

Is it OK for Limbaugh to call her a "ho" now?

It was hugely insensitive, but I think he was trying to be funny. In fact I found it a little funny. Not because he called her a HO, but because the statement was SO inappropriate. It just struck a funny bone for me. It's like Limbaugh was auditioning for "The Office"

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Is it OK for Limbaugh to call her a "ho" now?

It'll be okay with me if Limbaugh also says that he is on board with the admissions preferences that the Duke lacrosse team likely received.

[BrianD]

From my college experiences, drinking goes on everywhere and involves a large portion of the student body. I'm sure the school knows about it, but there isn't really anyone around that can do much about it at night when the parties are going on.

As far as colleges handling underage drinking on their own, that hasn't been anywhere close to my experience. It seemed like nearly every weekend parties got broken up and people cited. There were at least a couple of parties where police showed up with busses and carted everybody downtown.

This Duke party (without the alleged assault) sounds like an average weekend and any school I am familiar with.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

But then again, it's Rhode Island--you never know if that official was an intelligent man with a heart of gold, or a crook!

Given it's Rhode Island the latter is probably a given.