Soccer Thread 2023-24 Edition

[miami_fan]

I am not sure I have ever seen anything like the aftermath of the Manchester United v. Conventry match.

[sovereignstar v2]

Put United in the Championship and they probably don't get promoted right away

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I am not sure I have ever seen anything like the aftermath of the Manchester United v. Conventry match.

Missed the start of the comeback but that was incredible. Shame about VAR ruining a really cool moment.

[Ghost Econ]

Leverkusen are you fucking kidding me?

[Ksyrup]

So Leicester appears to have withstood a poor second half of the season to secure promotion back to EPL and likely to win the EFL title outright (they lead today 3-0 with about 20 minutes left and with a win would secure the title).

I don't know (or care to know) much about soccer's various rules and such, but an article I mostly read a week or so ago (until my eyes glazed over) suggests that they are in big trouble for next year - so much so that it seems like another year or two in EFL to sort their crap out might be preferable to instant promotion. Apparently they are in violation of financial rules and based on precedent, likely looking at starting next year more than 4 points in the hole. And based on whatever rules are in place, they may be precluded from signing any of their players whose contracts will be up at the end of this year - including Jamie Vardy. Further, either finances or penalties are going to restrict them from signing too many players before next season starts and may require that they sell off their best remaining players (like Dewsbury-Hall).

That all seems like it puts a big, fat damper on promotion.

Anyway... congrats?

[flere-imsaho]

Promotion is still better than non-promotion, even if they go back down again, because they'll get a slice of EPL money at some point that they would not have gotten if they were in the EPL.

But still, not a good situation. It's too bad, because the owners seem to really care and to be really involved, but boy howdy did they make some poor financial decisions (or took some pretty big financial risks, depending on how generous you want to be about it).

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

So Leicester appears to have withstood a poor second half of the season to secure promotion back to EPL and likely to win the EFL title outright (they lead today 3-0 with about 20 minutes left and with a win would secure the title).

I don't know (or care to know) much about soccer's various rules and such, but an article I mostly read a week or so ago (until my eyes glazed over) suggests that they are in big trouble for next year - so much so that it seems like another year or two in EFL to sort their crap out might be preferable to instant promotion. Apparently they are in violation of financial rules and based on precedent, likely looking at starting next year more than 4 points in the hole. And based on whatever rules are in place, they may be precluded from signing any of their players whose contracts will be up at the end of this year - including Jamie Vardy. Further, either finances or penalties are going to restrict them from signing too many players before next season starts and may require that they sell off their best remaining players (like Dewsbury-Hall).

That all seems like it puts a big, fat damper on promotion.

Anyway... congrats?

Reports are that the embargo is an EFL embargo, so once we are officially an EPL team (6th June) we can sign/resign as normal…

Except we still need to make savings by 30th June to avoid more breaches of the EPL PSR rules.

What it will likely mean is that we will sign Fatawu, Vardy will likely move on unless he takes a significant drop in wages, and KDH plus others will need to be sold.

And -6 seems to be the consensus starting position

Staying down wouldn’t have worked, as it would have just been kicking the can down the road on the PL punishments, while the EFL embargo and future breach of their rules would have meant more significant and immediate penalties there, massively reducing the likelihood of being competitive

What hasn’t been clarified (as we haven’t officially broken any EFL rules yet, hence one of the legal challenges- we are likely to, but haven’t actually failed yet) is what happens if/when we get relegated agin: will there be future EFL deductions? Probably

[Ksyrup]

Thanks for the info. Like I said, I don't pretend to understand (or want to) all of the rules but it's kind of a crappy situation either way - although one I guess they are responsible for, so they can only blame themselves. With potential future EFL penalties out there, that makes it even more imperative that they get this next squad right and at least tread water around 15th for a couple of years, rightsize things, and begin to build back a team like they had 5 years ago.

[miami_fan]

Has anyone seen justification for why LFC's last two years in the PL are counted in the EFL's profit and sustainability three year calculations? The two leagues have different limits for profit and sustainability.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Has anyone seen justification for why LFC's last two years in the PL are counted in the EFL's profit and sustainability three year calculations? The two leagues have different limits for profit and sustainability.

It’s one of the aspects that is causing the whole thing to be reevaluated - generally teams who get relegated have an inkling it could happen, and can build in mitigation plans

However LCFC (presume you meant Leicester City rather than LFC (Liverpool ) had been challenging for CL and European football in recent years, and were not seen as a risk to be relgated.

Added to the fact that it was completely unexpected, even to the club until it was much much too late, turns out we were massively overpaying players across the board - our wages:turnover ratio was something like 116%.

So it was a horrible mix of paying players to stay who really wanted to leave and didn’t give 100% (Tielemans, Soyuncu, Ndidi), and Top (the chairman) being too loyal and nice and paying bang average squad players far too much (Chouhury, Albrighton, Amartey, Mendy) plus average at best recruitment (Ward, Daka, Soumare) all combing into a gradual seemingly unnoticed slide into mediocrity, all with a massive turnover.

Then Tielemans and Soyuncu go for free at the end of the contract, as will Ndidi this summer, who could have been sold for a combined £100m plus (others on a free this year such as Iheanacho, Westergaard, Praet are less flagrant examples of a number of the above)

Then add in the fact that not only are the loss levels different, but so are the timelines: the EFL try to take proactive measures with accounts from the previous years and forecasts for the current in November, which was when LCFC kicked back essentially with your point: saying we were nothing to do with you until four months ago, and therefore we are only bound by your rules after a full year, effectively giving the middle finger to submitting the November forecast.

So the rules don’t match, and it has been shown to be an issue (as have the rules themselves, and are to be completely reworked for the 25-26 season, but that’s another topic!)

However, underlying all of this is that the club has been mismanaged, and we would have failed the PL rules quite badly too, even with their higher limits, so it’s hard to be angry TBH.

The PL rules are likely changing to allow a max spend of (probably) 5x the lowest club’s revenue, which we (along with all bar Chelsea) would have been within: it’s not case that the club is in danger, the owners have plenty of cash (not as much as MCFC or NUFC, but plenty enough), but I’m one for if there are a set of agreed rules and you break them, you get what you deserve.

But FFP/Profit & Sustainability has been shown to be flawed this year, to the point where they are changing the rules so that effectively no-one fails them!

[miami_fan]

Webb: Premier League referees set to explain VAR decisions - ESPN

In an effort to improve communication with fans, chief refereeing officer Howard Webb has said Premier League referees could soon announce to stadium crowds and television audiences why they have changed their decisions after visiting the VAR monitor.

Explanations would only be announced when a referee has visited the pitch-side monitor and not VAR checks which do not result in the on-field decision being overturned.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by AlexB

It’s one of the aspects that is causing the whole thing to be reevaluated - generally teams who get relegated have an inkling it could happen, and can build in mitigation plans

However LCFC (presume you meant Leicester City rather than LFC (Liverpool ) had been challenging for CL and European football in recent years, and were not seen as a risk to be relgated.

Ha! I don't think I have called them Leicester City since they last won the Championship. So in my head they are just Leicester FC or the Foxes lol. Is that a big deal for Foxes supporters? The reason I asked is I have friends who are Leeds supporters who had to make it very clear to me years ago that using United to refer to Manchester United no matter how well intentioned I was being would not be tolerated in their local pub.

However, underlying all of this is that the club has been mismanaged, and we would have failed the PL rules quite badly too, even with their higher limits, so it’s hard to be angry TBH.

The PL rules are likely changing to allow a max spend of (probably) 5x the lowest club’s revenue, which we (along with all bar Chelsea) would have been within: it’s not case that the club is in danger, the owners have plenty of cash (not as much as MCFC or NUFC, but plenty enough), but I’m one for if there are a set of agreed rules and you break them, you get what you deserve.

But FFP/Profit & Sustainability has been shown to be flawed this year, to the point where they are changing the rules so that effectively no-one fails them!

Oh I am not saying they are not deserving of punishment for breaking the rules. It would be different if these were English FA rules that governed the Prem, EFL and the National League.

[SirFozzie]

Leverkusen now four games away from the COMPLETE invincible season. (No losses in league OR in Europe)

Two more in the Bundesliga, the 2nd leg of the Europa League semi-final, and the final

edit: Forgot about the DFB-Pokal final as well, make that five

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Ha! I don't think I have called them Leicester City since they last won the Championship. So in my head they are just Leicester FC or the Foxes lol. Is that a big deal for Foxes supporters? The reason I asked is I have friends who are Leeds supporters who had to make it very clear to me years ago that using United to refer to Manchester United no matter how well intentioned I was being would not be tolerated in their local pub. .

Oh no, Leicester, or City/The City (pronounced Citeh) if in the Leicester area are fine (outside of Leicestershire everyone thinks you mean Man City), nobody actually says Leicester City out loud in conversation.

But when abbreviating, it’s always LCFC to avoid confusion with Liverpool

[miami_fan]

Turns out Jamie Vardy’s daughter is a legend as well 🤣🤣
pic.twitter.com/qJGVJ5USjb

— Second Tier podcast (@secondtierpod) May 5, 2024

[sovereignstar v2]

MAN U

[miami_fan]

Real Madrid just being Real Madrid. That's all this game came down to.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Real Madrid just being Real Madrid. That's all this game came down to.

Ditto 2023-24 Bayer Leverkusen just being 2023-24 Bayer Leverkusen.

[flere-imsaho]

And each without 155 charges of financial impropriety. Crazy.

[sovereignstar v2]

Theatre of Dreams

[SirFozzie]

Games of Soccer are played over 90 minutes, or until Leverkusen are no longer losing...

edit: Any more Leverkusen improbable comebacks this year, and they'll start comparing to Roller Derby

(Xabi Alonso is Little Ralphie Valladeres)

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

Theatre of Dreams

Isn't Man City's stadium named after one of the sponsors implicated in the financial improprieties?

[miami_fan]

This is what promotion meant to Gabrigol last night

It’s getting dusty in here…

🎥 @Lega_B @Como_1907 https://t.co/T86aG1RGtD pic.twitter.com/kraGtPekMK

— Calcio England (@CalcioEngland) May 11, 2024

Alessandro Gabrielloni signed for Italian club side Como 1907 as a semi-pro in 2018. He began his Lariani journey in Serie D. With 7 seasons, 2 promotions and 64 goals already under his belt, he and his club are now in the top flight of Italian football.

For a rough comparison, this would be like 2018 National Premier Soccer League National Champions Miami FC 2 making it to MLS this year.

[cartman]

https://fxtwitter.com/Dominos_UK/sta...14036599156965

[Lauriaferge27]

I believe the implementation of VAR is causing officials Buy Premium Weed Seeds Online | Top Strains | Secure Deliver to doubt themselves due to a combination of overthinking (considering what VAR can and cannot do) and second-guessing their decisions. Some might call this weak-minded, but there's a significant Premium Cannabis Seeds for Sale - Order Online Securely Now! amount of career, money, and pride at stake. Officials are already in a challenging position, and the way the EPL has implemented VAR is exacerbating the issue.

[miami_fan]

I hate the camera shots of supporters whose club is being relegated on the final day. But shots of supporters who are watching the title slip away? It is not personal Arsenal fans, those shots are priceless.

[sovereignstar v2]

Not in my lifetime

[cartman]

Leverkusen's unbeaten run has come to an end. 51 straight

[Ksyrup]

One of the few live sporting events Ive been able to watch while in London.

[SirFozzie]

Guys, the new poster in here is editing spam links in, I've tried reporting it but no response (in fact, more links are being added)

[AlexB]

Rumours that the Leicester manager Enzo Maresca could get the Chelsea job.

I have my doubts about the validity of these rumours, but TBH that might be the best thing for us: I remain unconvinced by him, especially how his style will work when we don’t have the best squad in the league….

And if he goes, we can get some cash from Chelsea to help our FFP issues.

TBH I really want him to go!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Guys, the new poster in here is editing spam links in, I've tried reporting it but no response (in fact, more links are being added)

And it's a stealth bot account
(meaning it registered more than 90 days ago and therefore dodges the one touch ban & clean )

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Rumours that the Leicester manager Enzo Maresca could get the Chelsea job.

I have my doubts about the validity of these rumours, but TBH that might be the best thing for us: I remain unconvinced by him, especially how his style will work when we don’t have the best squad in the league….

And if he goes, we can get some cash from Chelsea to help our FFP issues.

TBH I really want him to go!

So they are not going to their feeder club on the south coast to poach their manager? Oh wait, he left already.

I agree with your concern though I think there is enough EPL talent in the squad to survive next season.

I wonder if this is going to be the thing for clubs that are promoted as champions. Outside of Fulham , the champions of the Championship seem to get severely exposed when they are in the EPL at least recently. Burnley, Norwich City twice, Leeds all were overwhelming go forward in the Championship and within two season in the EPL they were struggling to score goals and fighting relegation.

Burnley scored thirty more goals(87-57) than Luton Town in the Championship. Luton scored 11 more goals (52-41) in the Prem. But I don't think the calls for Vincent Kompany to have Burnley more like Luton Town would have worked either.

[cartman]

wow, ManYoo actually held on and won a trophy this season

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

MAN U

.

[AlexB]

Lol ��

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I wonder if this is going to be the thing for clubs that are promoted as champions. Outside of Fulham , the champions of the Championship seem to get severely exposed when they are in the EPL at least recently. Burnley, Norwich City twice, Leeds all were overwhelming go forward in the Championship and within two season in the EPL they were struggling to score goals and fighting relegation.

Championship to EPL has to be one of the hardest jumps in world football. Most leagues there's some amount of overlap. For instance, I'd bet the top half of L2 is probably competitive with the bottom half of L1. Maybe the top quarter or third of L1 is competitive with the bottom quarter of the Championship, etc....

Increasingly, there's almost no overlap between the EPL & the Championship. And it's very, very difficult to make up that gap in your first year. Your commercial revenue might increase, but only a little in your first year. You'll get more from TV, but not until the transfer window is basically over. And prize money won't help you at the outset of the year either.

So, you take a club that was likely pummelling other clubs for an entire year, then ask them to spend the next year trying to eke out 40-ish points when they have:

• likely had to make significant tactical changes due to the change in competition
• possibly had their coach poached
• likely had a bunch of their good players poached and not necessarily replaced
• maybe had an owner buy a whole bunch of players who need time to gel as a team

It's really, really difficult. It requires not just a good team, but a good organization behind it. One that started looking in January for replacement players for those it was likely to lose in the close season. One that has a running shortlist of "next up" first team coaches. One that is able to immediately make commercial hay (and thus revenue) from getting to the EPL.

Given the way a lot of these clubs are run, that's a pretty tall order.

[miami_fan]

That all makes sense flere. But why would that be a problem for the dominating champion and not the team that finished between 3rd and 6th in the final table and went up in the playoffs?

18/19 Champion- Norwich on 94 pts, got relegated in 2020
18/19 Playoff winner- Aston Villa, finished 5th in final table, 76 pts. Has stayed in the Prem ever since.

19/20 Champion- Leeds on 93 pts, got relegated in 2023
19/20 Playoffs winner -Fulham, 4th, 81 pts, got relegated in 2021

20/21 Champion- Norwich on 97 pts, got relegated in 2022
20/21 Playoffs winner- Brentford, 3rd, 87 pts, Has stayed up since.

21/22 Champion- Fulham, 90pts, has stayed up since.
21/22 Playoff winner- Nottingham Forest, 80 pts, has stayed up.

22/23 Champion- Burnley, 101 pts, relegated in 2024
22/23 Playoff winner- Luton Town, 80pts relegated in 2024 but finished 2 points above Burnley and scored more goals than Burnley.

I fully admit to this being a small sample size and it is too early to draw strong conclusions. The fact is teams that don't know if they will be promoted to the Prem until late May seemed to do a better job in the Prem that the teams who knew they were up by late April if not earlier.

One thing on your list I know has played a part has been the loss of a champion's good players. But they aren't being poached necessarily. In Burnley's case, they brought in 27 players in 22/23 including 6 loans and 1 free from Chelsea, Man City, Brentford, Southampton Borussia Mönchengladbach, and PSG. This year in the Prem, they brought in another 25
players. They were only able to get the hands one player from Chelsea, two from mid table Ligue 1 clubs and 1 from 7th place Hoffenheim in the Bundesliga. Only one of the players they had on loan last season stayed with the club this season. Jordan Beyer cost Burnley €15.00m and played in 15 PL matches.

[whomario]

Re: Overlap between Divisions. Not the biggest sample size either but in Germany the Bundesliga 16th (of 18) are now 13-3 in the Playoff against the 2nd Bundesliga 3rd placed team*. And still i would argue the 2nd Division is very, very strong compared to Italy or Frances.
On the other hand, you obviously do get big success stories early on (long term, also for England, you have to consider that some clubs are just inherently smaller with less ressources than others), this season Heidenheim finished 8th. On the other hand Darmstadt finished dead last by a wide margin.

One thing that's curious is how many big clubs with even european pedigree not that long ago have went down and stayed down: Hamburg, Hertha, Schalke to name a few. The financial crash going down is definitely significant, arguably more than in the EPL (relative to the financials as a whole, not in absolute numbers maybe) with no parachute payments.


*And boy was that the height of insanity this year ... Bochum (where i live and so have some sympathy for and used to go to games every once in a while before tickets became impossible to get lately, even though i'm a Dortmund fan since childhood) fell to 16th on the last day of the season, suspended their GK, lost the first leg at home 0-3 and then yesterday beat Düsseldorf 3-0 away and then won the penalty shootout.
Watching the last Düsseldorf player miss and then collapse crying in a heap had me near tears despite rooting for Bochum. Man, that kid was utterly devastated ...

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Rumours that the Leicester manager Enzo Maresca could get the Chelsea job.

I have my doubts about the validity of these rumours, but TBH that might be the best thing for us: I remain unconvinced by him, especially how his style will work when we don’t have the best squad in the league….

And if he goes, we can get some cash from Chelsea to help our FFP issues.

TBH I really want him to go!

OK, looks like the rumours were legit, so one very happy bunny here

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

That all makes sense flere. But why would that be a problem for the dominating champion and not the team that finished between 3rd and 6th in the final table and went up in the playoffs?

Small sample size, as you say, but I think then you look at a number of factors, including that some of those playoff teams had to fight a lot harder to get their wins and that carried over, maybe some didn't lose as many players as the clubs that romped, and some just have good ownership or good non-playing staff (i.e. especially football directors).

Brentford is a good example with a smart owner who understands how to make the right decisions and who has stood by a manager who has made decisions good enough to keep them, mainly, out of relegation trouble.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by AlexB

OK, looks like the rumours were legit, so one very happy bunny here

Have you seen the early candidates?

Marti Cifuentes of Queens Park Rangers- 9/1
Mark Robins of Coventry City and unemployed David Moyes -8/1.
Former Chelsea head coach Graham Potter- 6/1
Carlos Corberan leads with 9/4 odds.

I would go for Potter myself but I am also surprised that Steve Cooper is not on that list.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Have you seen the early candidates?

Marti Cifuentes of Queens Park Rangers- 9/1
Mark Robins of Coventry City and unemployed David Moyes -8/1.
Former Chelsea head coach Graham Potter- 6/1
Carlos Corberan leads with 9/4 odds.

I would go for Potter myself but I am also surprised that Steve Cooper is not on that list.

No, hadn’t seen that. Don’t think Potter will come given PSR, but agree out he would be my favourite if he was interested.

Moyes might see it as a challenge worth taking, but possibly a long shot. Would likely give us a chance of staying up.

I don’t know the QPR bloke TBH, but given that fact, he or Robins might take it - a shot to nothing for them (and Robins played for us for a season or two)

Corberon might think he has built up a reputation good enough to wait for a better opportunity.

[flere-imsaho]

Congrats to Real Madrid on yet another UCL final win. Nice to Kroos go out in style. Bellingham is one hell of a player. Hard fought by Dortmund, but Madric just own this competition.

[miami_fan]

I feel for you whomario. That is a brutal loss given how Dortmund played in the first half.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I feel for you whomario. That is a brutal loss given how Dortmund played in the first half.

Thanks

Not to be, though considering our stature (at least compared to the true big boys) maybe a 2nd one is just too much to ask for Maybe next time the final is in Germany (97 was in Munich, with the goal by Ricken still the most iconic moment in history).

Yeah, definitely unfortunate but that's what happens against Madrid when you don't take your chances. Think the Füllkrug one against the post might have been ruled offside by VAR but the one by Adeyemi ... Great goalkeeping but if he had any trust in his right foot that's an easy run past Courtois on that side with a much better angle. Sucks for Hummels (who had the killer pass to create that one) and Reus especially. Maatsen i hope we can bring back despite that rookie mistake for the 0-2.
Team punched above it's weight in the competition, hope they have a better Bundesliga campaign next year as well though. Happy they are sticking with Terzic as coach. Might not be perfect, but bleeds yellow and black and is a great person.
I do think we'd do well to get some more ouside influences, even though i generally like that so many involved on all levels have been at the club for the long haul or previously.

[miami_fan]

I was going to put this one in the Youth Sports thread cause this is one of the most youth sports-est thing (in a silly way) thing I have seen in pro sports in a while.

Euro 2024: Ian Maatsen's dad drives boots to Germany - ESPN

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I was going to put this one in the Youth Sports thread cause this is one of the most youth sports-est thing (in a silly way) thing I have seen in pro sports in a while.

Euro 2024: Ian Maatsen's dad drives boots to Germany - ESPN

That's what people from Vlaardingen do for their sport...

[whomario]

Originally Posted by whomario

Happy they are sticking with Terzic as coach.

Well, so much for that ...

Edin Terzic resigns as Borussia Dortmund coach, citing ‘new era’ | Borussia Dortmund | The Guardian

[cartman]

The US beats Brazil 1-1 last night!