Congress and steroids in baseball.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Screw that, I agree with him 100%. Where the fuck is the round the clock coverage on the budget or health care or social security?
SI

C-SPAN

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by NAIWF

Manfred just fucked himself by saying there was NO document on March 2nd, even though there was an announcement by Selig in January. Best moment of the whole hearing so far.

Like I said, it looks so much like the Commish and Manfred just are so scattered and useless. Who's going to believe that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum even knew there were baseball games going on much less steroids in baseball.

SI

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Screw that, I agree with him 100%. Where the fuck is the round the clock coverage on the budget or health care or social security? I love baseball- they could strike 10 times before now and I died and I'll still be a baseball fan. But this is still baseball, yet there's more attention to it than anything Congress has done in the last month.

SI

Oh, sorry, I posted it incorrectly... I didn't mean that I didn't like what he had to say (I agree with him and with you). I just meant that it came at a weird time, since a few people before him just said something about congress not doing this to grandstand and get media attention... and then this guy goes and talks about something not relating to the case. I guess I found it more funny than hating it.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Oh, sorry, I posted it incorrectly... I didn't mean that I didn't like what he had to say (I agree with him and with you). I just meant that it came at a weird time, since a few people before him just said something about congress not doing this to grandstand and get media attention... and then this guy goes and talks about something not relating to the case. I guess I found it more funny than hating it.

Heck, I complained about the grandstanding. But this one seemed topical.

SI

[Tekneek]

I saw a few minutes of the campaign commercial, oh I mean, "steroids in baseball" hearing. What a joke. I consider it an insult that anyone's tax money was taken to finance this. Shame on CNN and anyone else who showed it live, because this is really a non-story compared to a lot of other things that have happened in D.C. over the last few years that were not given similar coverage.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I saw a few minutes of the campaign commercial, oh I mean, "steroids in baseball" hearing. What a joke. I consider it an insult that anyone's tax money was taken to finance this. Shame on CNN and anyone else who showed it live, because this is really a non-story compared to a lot of other things that have happened in D.C. over the last few years that were not given similar coverage.

How often do you watch C-Span 1, 2 and 3? One day is certainly worthwhile to investigate this issue. Sure, it's getting more attention on the sports stations and probably in the general media, but that doesn't mean it is getting more attention from congress.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

How often do you watch C-Span 1, 2 and 3? One day is certainly worthwhile to investigate this issue. Sure, it's getting more attention on the sports stations and probably in the general media, but that doesn't mean it is getting more attention from congress.

I never watch C-SPAN3 because DirecTV does not carry it. I have watched significant portions of C-SPAN and C-SPAN2 over time, although I have not watched that much lately. I still don't see the point. If it is a federal crime like a few of them were quick to champion, why aren't they calling in the DEA/FBI to investigate the entire league with criminal subpoenas? Oh, because calling some hearings with famous names is going to get everyone in the committee on prime time TV and in all the newspapers? That's what it looks and sounds like to me. Baseball can regulate itself. If they think baseball is conspiring to cover up a criminal steroid enterprise, they should send in law enforcement.

It *is* shameful that this sort of thing gets more play in the media overall than real business that actually might impact everyone's life.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I never watch C-SPAN3 because DirecTV does not carry it. I have watched significant portions of C-SPAN and C-SPAN2 over time, although I have not watched that much lately. I still don't see the point. If it is a federal crime like a few of them were quick to champion, why aren't they calling in the DEA/FBI to investigate the entire league with criminal subpoenas? Oh, because calling some hearings with famous names is going to get everyone in the committee on prime time TV and in all the newspapers? That's what it looks and sounds like to me. Baseball can regulate itself. If they think baseball is conspiring to cover up a criminal steroid enterprise, they should send in law enforcement.

It *is* shameful that this sort of thing gets more play in the media overall than real business that actually might impact everyone's life.

Understood and I am guessing you only watched the player's portion? On that point, I agree. The portions of the hearing prior to the players were much more informative and I think more productive to the actual problem of kids using steroids and other similiar substances.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

The portions of the hearing prior to the players were much more informative and I think more productive to the actual problem of kids using steroids and other similiar substances.

I did not see any of that, so I will take your word for it. I do wonder if anything Congress does has any chance at all of shaping what individuals in this country do, much less young people who are generally less inclined to even be aware that we have a Congress.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

How often do you watch C-Span 1, 2 and 3? One day is certainly worthwhile to investigate this issue. Sure, it's getting more attention on the sports stations and probably in the general media, but that doesn't mean it is getting more attention from congress.

*raises hand meekly* I do...

SI

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I do wonder if anything Congress does has any chance at all of shaping what individuals in this country do, much less young people who are generally less inclined to even be aware that we have a Congress.

I am young and not overly experienced with how quickly or efficiently congress acts to these issues, but they are agitated and sound like that if MLB doesn't take action, they will.

I think a zero tolerance program whether issued by baseball or congress would help. However, what they need is a zero tolerance policy in college and high school sports too. I doubt we will get that however.

[rexallllsc]

Wow the longer this went on, the more it turned into grandstanding.

"You do not want us (Congress) to get involved"

Pathetic.

Either do it because you should, or shut up. Enough of the "why I oughta..." fist waving from our incompetent government.

[Anthony]

so when do we get the moral of the story? when is the end-result announced? or is this one of those "we made progress today, perhpas we should meet again once we're closer to elections because this will garner more attention and free press" kind of things.

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

[Arles]

I put most of this on baseball management. You think that if, from 1990 to 2000, steroids weren't tested for in the NFL that no one would have used? You give players a way to improve their abilities and it's silly to think that many would not try. I agree that McGwire probably used Steroids, as did Sosa, Bonds, and others. I don't think Palmiero did, but I've been pretty clear on that to this point. All that said, I don't think baseball should do one thing about all these records and future HOF involving this group. They've made their bed, it's time to lie in it. For people that really hate steroid use (but don't mind the aforementioned period without black players, massive amphetamine and cortizone use, "juiced balls", scuffing and spitting on balls), they will remember this time in their own way. Baseball screwed the pooch and steroids (just like they did with Greenies, scuffed balls, not allowing black players and allowing cortizone) and now the sport must suffer the embarasement of trying to clean it up. There would have been about 4-5 similar periods over the past 50 years if a 24-hour media existed back then. So, why is this a surprise to anyone?

For the record, I don't think any worse of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa or any of these guys than I did before all this. Just as I don't look down on Mantle for being hopped up on greenies so he could go on drinking binges during the season, Kofax for having more Cortizone than blood in his veins during the prime of his career, Cy Young throwing mud balls to help set his records or Perry for using everything short of a belt-sander on a baseball to get in the HoF. If I did, there wouldn't be many "heroes" left to root for.

If baseball doesn't make a legitimate attempt to prevent this type of stuff, I have a hard time blaming these players for doing things that they knew would not be punished by the league.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

There is already an international body setup to do just that. You should never have the management handling this sort of thing. They have too much riding on the results to maintain their objectivity.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

I like the olympic policy. First failed test is a two year suspension, second failed test and you are out for life.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

I like the olympic policy. First failed test is a two year suspension, second failed test and you are out for life.

I think that has to be put into context though. These athletes are competing in the Olympics, which take place every four years. Therefore, they're missing half the small events that lead up to the big one. (note: I'm not sure if testing is done at a time besides the actual Olympics. So I would have a different outlook on this policy if, for example, they were tested a year before the Olympics were to take place, and a suspension would cause them to miss out on taking part)

One senator, towards the end of the whole thing, asked a question that was just stupid. I remember his name, Patrick McHenry, just because of today's holiday. He asked Selig if he would be in favor of a "one strike, you're out" policy like what is in place for gambling. He said it should be a one word answer. Selig, in my opinion, rightfully stated, "I don't know. I would have to think about it." What the hell did you want him to say? Obviously he's not going to say yes, as that would completely kill his stance that what they have put in place now is adequate. And if he were to say no, its Selig not wanting to "properly address the problem."

I'm in no way siding with the owners and PA. But these Congressmen f'in sucked. Somehow, they were unprepared. It took them hours to come around and ask meaningful questions. I was listening to Mike and the Mad Dog at various points of this whole proceeding, and they were shocked that these guys didn't go right at Schilling and ask him to explain what he meant in the SI article when he said (from memory) "I can't pat anyone on the butt anymore cause guys are so sore from sticking needles in there." I was shocked too. Some Congressman finally brought it up at around 6:00, and when he asked it, he didn't probe any further. He just let Schilling say something like "it was an exaggeration." Bullshit.

Oh, and how the hell did some of these guys get this far in their careers with the way they interview a group of people?

Dumb Congressman: "Is it baseball's responsibility to give greater importance to the steroid issue, and make sure that blah blah blah and yada yada yada occurs?"
Schilling: "Yes." (Dumb Congressman appears satisfied)
Palmeiro: "Yes."
McGwire: "Yeah, sure why not."
Sosa: (chuckling) "Si."
Canseco: "Yes."

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Like I said, it looks so much like the Commish and Manfred just are so scattered and useless. Who's going to believe that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum even knew there were baseball games going on much less steroids in baseball.

SI

What a brilliant strategy! Selig does it again!

[Ragone]

So thats why Palmeiro endorces viagra.. to reclaim lost potency from all the roids?

Honestly, his and schillings involvement is silly.. for one thing.. pitchers value FLEXIBILITY.. not muscle mass.. and another.. if palmeiro was using roids.. he better demand a refund

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Honestly, his and schillings involvement is silly.. for one thing.. pitchers value FLEXIBILITY.. not muscle mass.. and another.. if palmeiro was using roids.. he better demand a refund

There is the school of thought that pitchers have been using them as much if not more than hitters to gain velocity with upper 80's being the minimums these days.

SI

[Ragone]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

There is the school of thought that pitchers have been using them as much if not more than hitters to gain velocity with upper 80's being the minimums these days.

SI

Maybe so.. but using roids before doing flexibility exercises? That would seem like it would shorten your career rather then lengthen.. Pitching alone tears apart an arm

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

so when do we get the moral of the story? when is the end-result announced? or is this one of those "we made progress today, perhpas we should meet again once we're closer to elections because this will garner more attention and free press" kind of things.

i like the one strike and you're out policy. peronsally, there should be a world body that sets the regulations for testing, not do it on a league by league basis.

Do it like soccer. LONG suspensions. Public. Nasty.

[Coder]

I think that has to be put into context though. These athletes are competing in the Olympics, which take place every four years. Therefore, they're missing half the small events that lead up to the big one. (note: I'm not sure if testing is done at a time besides the actual Olympics. So I would have a different outlook on this policy if, for example, they were tested a year before the Olympics were to take place, and a suspension would cause them to miss out on taking part)

First of all, there are several "events" taking place during the course of the Olympiad (the time between the Olympic Games). There are World Championships, European Championships, "Golden League" events and a Grand Prix tour.. and now i'm just talking about Track and Field Athletics. For every single event like this, the top 3 finishers in each part (100m sprint, 1500m etc etc) are tested, as well as random participants. Just about all "Olympians" have these events as their every day job. If they were to test positive for performance enhancing drugs and be suspended for 1-3 years that would be devastating for them.

Then of course we have those athletes (Greece is notorious for this) who are basically invisible for 3 years only to have monster Olympic years... then when they're caught and are suspended, the Greek media screams "outrage".

Thing is, this is just track and field stuff. Last year, Manchester United defender Rio Ferdinand was suspended for 8 months for failing to show up at a drugtest. Cycling, a Swedish cyclist was suspended for 2 years for admitting to using performance enhancing drugs.

I just read an article about a Swedish swimmer, Therese Alshammar, who says she's usually being tested 10-15 times a year.

Basically, the "universal" view on steroids etc is that no matter if this is the first or second time, you're going to feel the punishment. It's not just going to be about missing 2 games of a 162-game season.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Maybe so.. but using roids before doing flexibility exercises? That would seem like it would shorten your career rather then lengthen.. Pitching alone tears apart an arm

Pitchers use them for lower body strength, not upper body.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

today's hearings were such a waste. i don't believe i've been listening for 1.5 hours. what did anyone think these players were gonna say anyway. McGwire is a fucking farce.

Hey at least you found out that McGwire is a douch.

[wbatl1]

Are our congressmen/women that idiotic. Some of the questions I saw were just terrible. "Why weren't the names of the players who tested positive in 2003-4 released?" Well, because the policy said it was Anonomous. Stupid policy, but come on congressman whoever, read the f***in thing before you complain about it.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by stevew

Pitchers use them for lower body strength, not upper body.

Yeah, much of a pitcher's velocity comes from his lower body. I also do notice that pitchers are, in general, much bulkier than they were 20 years ago. There seems to be more power pitchers in the game now too.

I'm sure some of it is steroids related. But other factors like better nutrition/more emphasis on working out, a greatly expanded talent pool, and the scouting apparatus systematically looking for pitchers who fit the "ideal power pitcher body and makeup" mold have something to do with it...

If pitchers use as much as hitters, then perhaps the records are a wash, and the home run increase in the 90s really does have more to do with the bandbox ballparks and the Colorado expansion than anything else...

[Blackadar]

I'm very saddened for Big Mac. He had a good/great career, was a helluva good guy in the community and now has his name dragged through the mud by grandstanding politicians trying to get a photo op. Mac doesn't deserve this. Bonds doesn't deserve this.

The whole damn thing is a shame, really. Baseball knew what was going on but it helped the popularity of the game, so they ignored it. Fans knew what was going on but adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The press knew what was going on but it wasn't "news". Players did it to be more powerful and popular. It was, for lack of a better term, a "conspiracy of silence".

Now everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and say they "didn't know" and feign moral outrage. Fix the problem, begin legitimate testing and go on with life because you can't go back. And leave these guys alone. I'm more worried about their long term health now than whether they doped up.

[KWhit]

I still view taking steroids as cheating.

If McGwire took roids (as I suspect he did), he is getting what he deserves.

[Anthony]

wow...Blackadar managed to basically take the total opposite of current public sentiment.

for the record, Blackadar, you are extremely wrong. when one person juices up - it's unfortunate. when a handful of guys juice up, it's an issue.

when on average 2% of the entire workforce (which translates into hundreds given the size of league) is found to be juicing - it's an epidemic. then the entire integrity of the sport is called into question.

i trust the same would have happened had it turned out that it wasn't just Pete Rose who gambled on the sport (i'm sure he wasn't entirely alone, but since he was the only one documented to have done it then we have to go with the facts and not assumptions), that if hundreds of players were gambling on the game we'd be having the same "What the fuck is going on?" hearings.

we didn't ask the right questions when all this started happening because at first homerun monsters were few and far between. a Cecil Fielder here. a Brady Anderson there. 90's come around, and records that stood for decades were being broken at a blistering pace. 3 60+ HR seasons by one guy?!? 2 70 HR seasons only 3 years apart? it is only know that society has decided to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes (to borrow a line from The Matrix).

this is all useless if nothing comes out of it. then it really was grandstanding and an opportunity for face-time. but if the ship is righted and all wrongs are corrected, so be it.

but, again, don't make the players who were dragged into these hearings out to be victims or martyrs. McGwire had a great opportunity to finally clear his name from being lumped with illegal substances. he reads the same papers we do and watches the same sports talk shows. he knows that more and more we question the validity of his stats. why would you let people tarnish your legacy? whatever happens to McGwire as far as his legend and place in history is concerned from here on out is the result of his own doing.

he's not a victim. none of the cheaters are.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

when on average 2% of the entire workforce (which translates into hundreds given the size of league)

40 * 30 = 1,200 * .02 = 24

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I still view taking steroids as cheating.

If McGwire took roids (as I suspect he did), he is getting what he deserves.

Agreed. Even if it wasn't in the baseball agreement, a large percentage of these drugs were illegal to begin with.

BigMac told the world he was clean. Just a few weeks ago he said it again. Then he comes up with that performence? Sorry, I'd be lying if I said I had not lost respect for the man. Ditto Bonds, who I've watched in awe over the last six or seven years.

He's now going to get what he deserves for cheating. He doesn't need my sympathy anyway. This isn't some single parent trying to raise 2 kids on a minimum wage salary. This is a guy who made millions of dollars doing what he did. I'm sure he'll be able to continue with his life without having my respect.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

40 * 30 = 1,200 * .02 = 24

well, technically that is 2% of however many people were tested. not everyone was tested. that number could be bigger and likely is. and you assume those "24" players are the only players who do it year in and out. i'm sure there were instances of a player saying "let me just juice up this year since i'm in the final year of my contract, get my numbers up and cash in. i can always quit after i sign a new contract". that's also 2% in this new era of higher scrutiny. in the crazy days of don't-ask-don't-tell (ie., only a few years ago) i'm sure it was more rampant.

so, that equation doesn't really mean anything (i understand you were correcting my math) and i actually think the qualifying percentage was 5% of players tested positive would mean the drug testing would remain in place for the remainder of the CBA. i think i was using Schilling's number of "2%" cuz that's what he used in the hearings.

so you got the 24 players based on 2%, and you got the numbers that Caminiti and Canseco are saying (well over half the league), i think the actual number is something in between that. so hundreds it is.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Agreed. Even if it wasn't in the baseball agreement, a large percentage of these drugs were illegal to begin with.

BigMac told the world he was clean. Just a few weeks ago he said it again. Then he comes up with that performence? Sorry, I'd be lying if I said I had not lost respect for the man. Ditto Bonds, who I've watched in awe over the last six or seven years.

He's now going to get what he deserves for cheating. He doesn't need my sympathy anyway. This isn't some single parent trying to raise 2 kids on a minimum wage salary. This is a guy who made millions of dollars doing what he did. I'm sure he'll be able to continue with his life without having my respect.

that's what i say - these people don't need my/our pity.

one of my motto's is don't ever feel sorry for a millionaire.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

well, technically that is 2% of however many people were tested. not everyone was tested.

Wrong. All players on the 40-man roster were tested the past 2 years, just not randomly. Try again.

EDIT: I should say, 2004 was mandatory for all players. The random testing in 2003 was to determine whether mandatory testing would be required if the 5% threshold was met. But that 2% was of all players.

[Crapshoot]

The fact that any idiot things McGuire has to be cleared in the eyes of a press corps that lives for sensation and fans who show the intelligence of chipmunks is hilarious. The moral outrage over this is absolute and total bullshit in the larger scheme of things. Are you going to go back and argue that every player who popped greenies was now tainted ? hell, in the 60's and 70's, speed was common in the game - should all of that go away ? Couldn't congress be doing something better than this ? I hate, hate self appointment moral policemen - self righteous pricks who seem to derive worth from determining how others should live.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Wrong. All players on the 40-man roster were tested the past 2 years, just not randomly. Try again.

i haven't heard this. i got the impression this is all random sampling.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

wow...Blackadar managed to basically take the total opposite of current public sentiment.

for the record, Blackadar, you are extremely wrong. when one person juices up - it's unfortunate. when a handful of guys juice up, it's an issue.

when on average 2% of the entire workforce (which translates into hundreds given the size of league) is found to be juicing - it's an epidemic. then the entire integrity of the sport is called into question.

i trust the same would have happened had it turned out that it wasn't just Pete Rose who gambled on the sport (i'm sure he wasn't entirely alone, but since he was the only one documented to have done it then we have to go with the facts and not assumptions), that if hundreds of players were gambling on the game we'd be having the same "What the fuck is going on?" hearings.

we didn't ask the right questions when all this started happening because at first homerun monsters were few and far between. a Cecil Fielder here. a Brady Anderson there. 90's come around, and records that stood for decades were being broken at a blistering pace. 3 60+ HR seasons by one guy?!? 2 70 HR seasons only 3 years apart? it is only know that society has decided to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes (to borrow a line from The Matrix).

this is all useless if nothing comes out of it. then it really was grandstanding and an opportunity for face-time. but if the ship is righted and all wrongs are corrected, so be it.

but, again, don't make the players who were dragged into these hearings out to be victims or martyrs. McGwire had a great opportunity to finally clear his name from being lumped with illegal substances. he reads the same papers we do and watches the same sports talk shows. he knows that more and more we question the validity of his stats. why would you let people tarnish your legacy? whatever happens to McGwire as far as his legend and place in history is concerned from here on out is the result of his own doing.

he's not a victim. none of the cheaters are.

Victims? No. Martyrs? No. Unfortunate? Yes.

Am I wrong? No. Because this is an opinion issue. Duh.

How deep does the rabbit hole go? I believe Caminiti was probably right - at least 50% of the players used steriods at some point. Again, I think everyone buried their heads in the sand because baseball was "exciting" again. Fans, players, owners, league administration...everyone knew. Of that I have no doubt. The damned rumors were rampant when Brady Anderson knocked out 50 in a season.

Cheaters? They cheated no more than someone who smoked pot or got caught DWI. It may have been illegal, but it's not "cheating" as it wasn't against the rules of baseball. There's a major difference between the two.

Again, what does all this accomplish? The horses have left the barn, the barn's burned down and a new parking lot has been paved in its place. So what's the use of dragging people through the mud now? To make examples of them? Then drag every baseball player in the last 15 years up on that stand and make them all testify. Because I'd bet that most of them are guilty of 'roiding at least once.

And what choice did Mac have?

1. If he was innocent, if he says he didn't do it - no one will believe him.
2. If he did do 'roids (and it only takes one dose), if he says he didn't do it - he risks going to jail for perjury.
3. If he did do 'roids (and it only takes one dose), if he says he did it - he risks going to jail for it.

Great choices there. It's all feigned indignation and grandstanding now. It's a friggin' witch hunt.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i haven't heard this. i got the impression this is all random sampling.

I clarified above. 2004 was mandatory for all players, since at least 5% tested positive in random testing during 2003. That kicked the mandatory testing policy into gear for 2004. That's what the 2% figure relates to.

[Ksyrup]

I stumbled across this article just now. Does anyone remember this being reported at all? I swear this is the first time I've heard of it, and I know it hasn't been raised recently. I'm shocked this hasn't been brought up by someone, somewhere, given the issues at hand. Why weren't these guys called to testify?




Sledge Becomes Second To Test Postive For Steroids


By Will Kimmey
January 14, 2003

Expos outfield prospect Terrmel Sledge became the second baseball player in eight days to draw a two-year ban from international competition for testing positive for a steroid.

Sledge's name was posted on the United States Anti-Doping Agency's sanctions list Tuesday, citing a positive test in October when he was trying out for the U.S. Olympic qualifying team. Sledge's urine test showed traces of 19-norandrosterone and 19-noretiocholanolone, the same chemical derivatives related to androstenedione that got Angels righthander Derrick Turnbow a two-year ban on Jan. 5.

Sledge, 26, hit a career-high 22 home runs last season at Triple-A Edmonton, doubling his best previous season total. He entered the 2003 season with 34 home runs in 1,564 career at-bats. Sledge was added to the Expos 40-man roster after the 2002 season, and 40-man players are not subject to drug testing.

After Turnbow's positive test Gene Orza, associate general counsel of the players' union, said andro is a legal supplement in the U.S. and the substance was not forbidden by major league baseball.

"Derrick Turnbow did not test positive for a steroid," Orza said. "He tested positive for what the IOC (International Olympic Committee) and others regard as a steroid, but the U.S. government does not."

Turnbow was the first athlete sanctioned by the USADA in 2004, and Sledge and track and field participant Mickey Price became the second and third on Tuesday. Five of the 26 athletes sanctioned in 2003 tested positive for the same substance as Turnbow and Sledge. Those athletes competed in cycling (two), track and field (two) and swimming. No other baseball players appear on USADA sanction lists, which date back to 2001.

Turnbow acknowledged taking an over-the-counter nutritional supplement containing 19-norandrosterone, known in gyms as "19-nor," but said he "didn't know that what I was taking was going to make me fail a drug test, period." Neither Sledge nor the Expos could be reached for comment

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Cheaters? They cheated no more than someone who smoked pot or got caught DWI. It may have been illegal, but it's not "cheating" as it wasn't against the rules of baseball. There's a major difference between the two.

well, legally you can dress up as a fairy and stick dried meats in your colon singing Broadway tunes while rubbing pictures of prepubescent boys on your genital area...that don't make it right.

and don't give me "it wasn't against the rules of baseball". part of these hearings is to determine if baseball has the wherewithall to police itself, because it hasn't been doing a bang-up job lately in that regard. apparently there was a lot that baseball hasn't had a rule for.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I clarified above. 2004 was mandatory for all players, since at least 5% tested positive in random testing during 2003. That kicked the mandatory testing policy into gear for 2004. That's what the 2% figure relates to.

gotcha...

[Blackadar]

One of these days, I hope someone says this to Congress on one of these BS hearings:

"Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules or took a few liberties with our female party guests -- we did. But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the actions of a few sick, perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you ... isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America! Gentlemen!"

And then gets up and leaves...

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Maybe so.. but using roids before doing flexibility exercises? That would seem like it would shorten your career rather then lengthen.. Pitching alone tears apart an arm

IIRC, the biggest boost for pitchers using steroids is turnaround time on starts. IE, it helps them recover faster. All Steroids don't just build muscle and make you look like Paul Bunyan. There are many that simply increase your recovery rate.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

well, legally you can dress up as a fairy and stick dried meats in your colon singing Broadway tunes while rubbing pictures of prepubescent boys on your genital area...that don't make it right.

Nah, we know that's your hobby.

As an aside, you're probably the only one sick enough to even think of such a thing on this board. Gratz!

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

and don't give me "it wasn't against the rules of baseball". part of these hearings is to determine if baseball has the wherewithall to police itself, because it hasn't been doing a bang-up job lately in that regard. apparently there was a lot that baseball hasn't had a rule for.

Don't give you it "wasn't against the rules of baseball"? I guess simple facts just interfere with your Don Quixote crusade this morning?

Again, these hearings are just an opportunity for Congress to grandstand and get photo ops. It's just a shame that they need to drag people through the mud to do it.

[Anthony]

yup....poor ole McGwire, Sosa and Canseco just were randomly thrown into this mess. shame on us.

[Arles]

Does anyone think that 70-80% of the NFL would not be juicing if no steroid tests were done between 1998 and 2002? When baseball turned a blind eye on this issue, it created the problem. Athletics is not like working at IBM or Motorola. Athletes are valued (and paid) by their ability to hit the ball, run faster and pitch better. If there is a way to improve that with no definitive health risks that is not checked by baseball, it is silly to think that many people won't do this. I guarantee you that if someone would have walked up to Mantle and said "Hey, Mick, here's some cream that will make your knee problems go away, allow you to hit more HRs and stay healthy all season, you want it?" He would have jumped at that in a second.

The difference between hitting 15 HRs and 25 HRs is about $6 million a year. For baseball/society to now be up in arms that players would try and take advantage of this loophole in their testing is completely hypocritical.

This is like putting 100 kids in a candy store all night - Asking them not to eat any but saying that they won't check the inventory the next morning and leaving the room. Then, acting all self-righteous and indignant when it comes out that 20-30 kids ate some of the candy.

Baseball made this mess, but people like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero are going to pay for it. Just another feather in the cap of Fehr and Selig. Then again, without steroids, there's a good chance that baseball might be the shell of what it was 10 years ago because of the strike. If there's no McGwire and Sosa HR chase, who knows where baseball is right now.

[Blackadar]

Arles nailed it - that's exactly my sentiment. Thanks, Arles!

[ISiddiqui]

Blackadar: Yeah, that would be great. But I'm sure no one wants to go to jail .

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Arles

Does anyone think that 70-80% of the NFL would not be juicing if no steroid tests were done between 1998 and 2002? When baseball turned a blind eye on this issue, it created the problem. Athletics is not like working at IBM or Motorola. Athletes are valued (and paid) by their ability to hit the ball, run faster and pitch better. If there is a way to improve that with no definitive health risks that is not checked by baseball, it is silly to think that many people won't do this. I guarantee you that if someone would have walked up to Mantle and said "Hey, Mick, here's some cream that will make your knee problems go away, allow you to hit more HRs and stay healthy all season, you want it?" He would have jumped at that in a second.

The difference between hitting 15 HRs and 25 HRs is about $6 million a year. For baseball/society to now be up in arms that players would try and take advantage of this loophole in their testing is completely hypocritical.

This is like putting 100 kids in a candy store all night - Asking them not to eat any but saying that they won't check the inventory the next morning and leaving the room. Then, acting all self-righteous and indignant when it comes out that 20-30 kids ate some of the candy.

Baseball made this mess, but people like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire and Palmiero are going to pay for it. Just another feather in the cap of Fehr and Selig. Then again, without steroids, there's a good chance that baseball might be the shell of what it was 10 years ago because of the strike. If there's no McGwire and Sosa HR chase, who knows where baseball is right now.

No, it's not hypocritical, and these players aren't children. The Enron executives had a chance to make millions by going against the rules and doing something illegal too. Just because someone has the chance to make millions of dollars by doing something illegal, doesn't mean it's right for them to do it.

I know. . . this was a victimless crime. They only did it to themselves. Fine, I can live with that. Still, I have every right to lose respect for the people who made that choice.

And you're right, baseball did make this mess. Baseball as a whole. The players and the owners. I really didn't have much respect for Fehr and Selig anyway, so there isn't any extra outrage from me on that.

McGwire isn't taking the fall for baseball. McGwire is taking the fall for a personal choice he made. Why should I give a flip about him? It's important to note that he succeeded with his choice. He broke the Maris record. He made millions and he finished 6th on the all-time home run list making millions of dollars in endorsements and contracts along the way. If that's what his integrity is worth, good for him.